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FBI via Reuters
FBI wanted poster for Sirajuddin Haqqani, leader of the so-called Haqqani Network on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.
By Amna Nawaz, NBC News producer, Islamabad
Over the last two weeks, increased U.S. pressure on Pakistan to go after the Haqqani network has laid bare the complicated relationship that Islamabad maintains with this particular militant group – a link some Pakistani officials argue is necessary for their national interests.
The U.S. request that Pakistan crack down on the Haqqanis – believed to be operating from the tribal agency of North Waziristan and attacking U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan – has long been understood to be a fundamental point of disagreement in private discussions.
In June 2011, following the raid on Osama Bin Laden’s compound in the Pakistani city of Abbottabad and subsequent flurry of high-level meetings between the two stated allies, press speculation was rampant that a Pakistan military operation in North Waziristan was imminent. Pakistan’s army commander in the region, Lt. Gen. Asif Yasin Malik, denied that, maintaining that Pakistan “will undertake operations when we want to do it, when it is militarily and otherwise in the national interest to undertake such operations.”
To this day, North Waziristan remains the only one of the seven tribal agencies in which the Pakistan military has yet to carry out any operation against Islamic militants. But the Sept. 13 attack on the U.S. embassy in Kabul pushed the Haqqani issue back to the headlines, and forced the debate out into the public.
NBC News' Richard Engel joins Chris Jansing to discuss the attack in Kabul on the U.S. Embassy. American and Afghan officials blamed a Taliban group, the Haqqani network, for the attack.
State Department officials said the attack “changed the nature of the meeting” between U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Pakistan Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar when the two met on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly this month. The Haqqanis, they said, were the first and last issue discussed.
Just days after the attack, in an interview with Radio Pakistan, U.S. Ambassador to Islamabad Cameron Munter claimed the U.S. had “evidence linking the Haqqani network to the Pakistan government,” but did not share specifics.
Less than one week later, Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff and long characterized by Pakistani officials as “a friend of Pakistan,” dealt what many here saw as the harshest blow, when he testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee that the Haqqani network acts as a “veritable arm” of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence Agency, known as the ISI.
Mullen’s comments sparked a firestorm in Pakistan. The country’s powerful Army Chief Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, denied the accusations as “unfortunate” and “not based on facts,” and Pakistani politicians struck back, accusing the U.S. of making Pakistan a scapegoat for its failures in Afghanistan.
Though Pakistan’s military spokesman, Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas, denied that the spy agency facilitated or supported the Haqqani network, he did acknowledge his country’s contact with the group, saying, “Any intelligence agency would like to maintain contact with whatever opposition group, whatever terrorist organization … for some positive outcome.”
Privately, Pakistani military and intelligence officials tell NBC News that means protecting their country’s national interests for stability in the region and good relations across the western border. While they do not rule out targeted military operations in North Waziristan to clear our elements deemed a threat to the state, specific action targeting the Haqqani network, they say, is not necessarily a mission they share with the U.S.
“We have strategic convergence with the Americans on two points -- a stable, safe Afghanistan and the eradication of al-Qaida in the region,” said one Pakistani intelligence official, speaking on condition of anonymity. “That’s it.”
The Haqqanis, officials here say, do not pose an immediate internal threat, and attacking them would only force the group to turn their sights on the Pakistani state.
“Why would we shoot ourselves in the foot?” said the intelligence official. “After 2014 (and the U.S. troop withdrawal from Afghanistan), we’ll be left right where we were after the Afghan jihad.”
Pakistani officials base that approach on the widely held belief that the Haqqanis are simply too powerful a group for any future government in Kabul to ignore. But besides wanting to maintain a good relationship with forces in power in Afghanistan, they are also reluctant to lose one of their strongest links to the myriad militant groups operating in North Waziristan.
The Haqqanis first established themselves as key players in the region during the war against the Soviet Union after the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan, when the strength of Jalaluddin Haqqani’s relationships at a geographically strategic point allowed the group to operate as a nexus player. Jalaluddin’s son, Sirajuddin, today operates on the strength of his father’s credibility as operational commander of the group, playing the same influential role, tying together diverse actors in the region.
According to a recent report by The Combating Terrorism Center (CTC) at West Point, “For the past three decades, the Haqqani network has functioned as an enabler for other groups and as the fountainhead of local, regional and global militancy.”
In an area largely abandoned by the Pakistani state, maintaining a link with the Haqqanis provides Pakistan’s agencies a conduit to groups that actually do carry out attacks within their own borders, like the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP).
The Haqqani network, according to the CTC, has played the role of “local conflict mediator over multiple decades,” and now functions as “a central diplomatic interface between the TTP and the Pakistani state when important issues need to be discussed.”
Former Ambassador Ayaz Wazir, who established Pakistan’s consulate in Mazar-i-Sharif during Taliban rule in Afghanistan and has met with the Haqqanis, says that bringing the group into the reconciliation process is the only way forward.
“I don’t know why this big difference between the Taliban and the Haqqani network is being drawn,” said Wazir. “Jalaluddin Haqqani was part of the Taliban right from Day One, I would say. Haqqani and Taliban are one and the same thing.”
In an interview with Reuters last week, Sirajuddin Haqqani echoed that sentiment, pledging allegiance to the Afghan Taliban leadership, and saying he “would support whatever solution” they suggested “for the future of Afghanistan.”
U.S. officials, however, argue that the group is separate and distinct, and remains among the most dangerous threats to both the U.S. and Pakistan. A series of high-level meetings have been held in recent days in an attempt to defuse tensions and ensure cooperation on this issue between the two countries.
In an interview Wednesday night with an English-language Pakistani news channel, the U.S. special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, Ambassador Marc Grossman, hailed those meetings as a sign of strength and resilience in the relationship, but reiterated the U.S. request for “joint action” against the Haqqani network.
“It’s very, very important that the government of Pakistan and the government of the United States and the people of the two countries recognize that terrorism – and that includes the Haqqani Network – is a threat to both of us,” said Grossman. “The question is not whether we will work together, but how we’ll work together to try to deal with these issues.”
Mushtaq Yusufzai contributed reporting from Peshawar, and Fakhar Rehman, from Islamabad.
Leave a Comment:
This article is like saying will the US government go after the "CIA Network" LOL.
Obviously the answer is NO
The CIA creates agents just as the Pakistani's and Saudi's create terrorists.
Pakistan is an enemy and should be treated as such. They decided they would rather harbor terrorists that even kill themselves, rather have the only major power in the world willing to ally with them as a friend.
What a stupid, crappy thing to say: equating CIA agents with Pakistani and Saudi terrorists. You are either a left-wing nut case or simply an idiot.
Pakistan is a lawless tribal land with nomadic culture, with nuclear craps in its possession. We should find a way to neutralize those nukes they have (which is very unlikely). Haqqini's are not going to change their behavior nor is Pakistan's military including their Intelligence services (ISI). Haqqanis group was created by the Pakistanis as a bulwark against the perceived influence of India with the present Afghan regime. Pakistan's main military garrison is 1 mile away from the HQ of the Haqqani's network, it seems.
Haqqanis have destroyed many of our oil tankers on way to our bases in Afghanistan, killed many of our soldiers, bombed our embassy in Kabul, etc. It's time to take these terrorists on. I honestly believe with a tough talking Panetta at the helm in Pentagon, it's only a matter of weeks before we bomb the crap out of these people. Let us see what happens.
However, this should not deter us from our planning to get the hell out of Afghanistan.
Still Working,
It's not an equation, it's an analogy. Do you know the difference? The point is that the likelihood of Pakistan actually dealing with these terrorist bastards is exactly zero.
We should stop sending them money immediately, bring our troops home ASAP, and let them all burn in hell together. We got Bin Ladin, we're done. End it.
The real powers in the region, China and India, should be the ones to worry about this, rather than the virtually bankrupt U.S. spending trillions of dollars trying to police the mountanous regions of a country halfway around the world.
Instead, we should be investing that money in better security here at home at our ports and borders, training and equipment for Special Ops teams who are the ones who really go in and get the job done when necessary, and high tech surveillance of these enemies.
We'll never be able to completely stamp out the factions who hate us, and the longer we stay there the more their hate grows.
Equating CIA agents with Pakistani and Saudi terrorists sounds about right to me. What problem do you have with it?
We need to cut off all aid to Pakistan until they address the Haqqani problem. The Haqqani are a terrorist organization that Pakistan allows to freely operate from within their borders. This makes them state sponsors of terrorism. As such, they are our enemy not our ally. The Pakistanis harbor this organization that has been responsible for the deaths of many American soldiers. If the Pakistanis won't do anything about them, then the US should take unilateral action to resolve the problem the same way we did with bin Laden. If the Pakistanis don't like it, let them wave their arms and protest all they want. Something needs to be done about these terrorists and if the Pakistanis won't deal with it the US should.
Doing a hecka of a job Obamie, Heck of a job!
"Will Pakistan ever go after the Haqqani Network?" Is the current title of this article.
The answer is an ambiguous one, and the reason is: it's a Muslim state, there is wide-spread corruption. They smile at the U.S. when they receive the billions we give them and then betray us when we're not looking. They even hid OBL, attacked our embassy, attacked OUR forces in Afghanistan, and I could go on and on and on.
Don't count on their CONCERTED effort with the Haqqani Network, sure, they may give a little 'lip service' to us but only to keep the U.S. dollars flowing into their corrupt hands and feed the terrorist groups, and don't forget, it was a Pakistani scientist that sold North Korea nuclear tecnology to them with the bind approval of Pakistani officials.
They aren't an ally. Period!
My opinion.
Well, if they won't help, I guess we'll have to "drone on" and take care of it ourselves.
Sounds about right to me as well.
When is the United States going to take action against the Kurdish terror organisation PKK in Northern Iraq?
Swan37 your a left wing nut. No matter what view you have of the CIA when they do their work the subjects of their action are lagitimately dangerous people. People like you can use your leftist rederict all you want but you don't change the fact that you are not a friend of this nation. The shame of all of this is that Swan37 most likely lives in this country and enjoys it's freedoms and benefits while all the while he tries to undermine it. Whats happening is the enemies of Freedom and Democracy are sowing the seeds of hate, distrust, and animosity while living among us. You hear this in rederict from both the left and the right wing of America. I read an article that said the people in the middle were dissapearing becoming polarized by both fringes of the left and right. Ask yourself when have you seen a truly moderate republican? When was the last truly conservative Democrat we have seen? I'm a conservative Democrat. I support President Obama, though I think he is slightly left leaning, but certainly not nearly as left as the republicans claim. Just as George W. Bush was not nearly as radical right as many liberal Democrats claim. The point is the enemy is among us! The enemy has American Citizenship, and the enemy is trying to polarize our nation into two distinct sides, radical right, or radical left. If they ever errode the people in the middle they surmise they can create a civil war and destroy America as we know it. They want to scare the old and disabled people, make hungry the poor, and cause nothing but death and dispair. That is who Swan37 is. An enemy of this nation. Good Day, Joe.
what do you think the people in the countries we have invaded consider us and all of our "private Contractors" and the CIA? let me think.......... Answer, Terrorist.
The relationship with Pakistan's elites is and always has been a terrible waste of lives and money. Most American military, CIA and independent experts have continued to say that the relationship, is too important to abandon. And no amount of corruption and double-dealing will change their mindst---not because they are right, but because they refuse to be wrong.
Either Pakistan actually can control their Western borders, or it's simply not their country.
The Pakistani elite is filled with very accomplished liars. Supporting them would have been like sending money to the soviets during the Cold War.
There is not and can never be any guarantee against terrorism.
As Ben Franklin said, "When you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas" What will America bcome if such governments are our friends?
It's many years late, but: Out now.
I'm confused. Why exactly is Pakistan so dead-set against finding terrorists in that region? I know the people of Pakistan seem to be against it, but why is that?
Republic and Swan.... you are both traitors to America. or left over hippie garbage spewing your anti america hatred and your vast conspiracy theories. While the tactics used by the CIA may not seem kosher to the squeamish who are against getting information however we can, including water boarding or even jamming bamboo shoots under ones finger nails, if the tactic works than use it. I would rather have the information then have a terrorist laugh at me because i can't effectively break him and learn of his/her intentions. I would just as soon put a bullet in their forehead than play kid games when it comes to protecting this country. So stand on the sidelines with your placards and protest till your blue in the face but if you think that makes you more of a patriot, your wrong you cowards. Try going over to Pakistan and see where you stand. Especially Swan, don't forget to get fitted for your burqua.
Ahuizotl----It's called USA MONEY. The terrorists is their money in the bank. They pretend to be hunting them down, and the US just keeps sending money. Time to stop playing that game, cut off funding to Pakistan and bomb the hell out of them on the way out. B-52's wing-tip to wing-tip, that ought to take care of that problem.
Gee Joe I'm a game programmer. If that means I'm trying to undermine the country so be it. Also I'm in the reform party which has supported getting the debt under control for YEARS. In fact that's why it was formed (LONG before the tea party) . You being a Democrat (and it wouldn't matter if you were a Republican) have been supporting people who have steadily buried this country under a mountain of debt. This is what is ultimately going to be the ruin of the good old US of A. I would say you are trying to undermine it or at best have been complicit in it's ruin.
@richard 620 I understand why the GOVERNMENT would not want to attack this region, but what I'm curious about is why the people also seem to be so dead set against attacking this area. It's mind-boggling.
Bla bla bla. Evidently holding an opinion now makes you a traitor. I don't happen to like the CIA and I think it's justified given the damage they have done over the years. Maybe you should read some history and find out what happened to Iran's democracy? Yes they had one at one point. On second thought don't bother. Just continue accusing people who have differing opinions of being traitors. I don't really care because fortunately for me the law doesn't agree with you.
NO! Pakistan IS the Haqqani network.
Then I would respond to Pakistan, Sending you a billion$ plus a year in aid isn't in the best interest of the US either. Sounds like the Pakistani Govt has a choice to make. GWB made a statement right after 9/11. "If you are not with us in the war on terror then you are against us." It still rings true. Pakistan has been a luke warm alli at best and a supporter of our enemies at worst. If they choose to support our enemies then we should cut off all aid and trade with Pakistan and freeze all Pakistani assets and funds in US banks.
In last 10 years, Pakistan has lost 30,000 innocent citizens, 5000 security personnel and $70 Billion damages to infrastructure. What Pakistan got in return, a promise to $20 Billion aid. So far only $8 Billion is delivered. This is the war Pakistan fighting against terrorism after 9/11. Unfortunately, in the USA, very few people recognise Pakistan's sacrifice.
Unilateral Action??? JS in SD, do you know what that really means? How about World War III!!! Think we can survive that? We may have gotten away with sneaking in and disposing of Bin Laden and a couple of his cohorts. He was NOT a Pakistani citizen but basically a man without a country who no doubt was simply sheltered there. INVADING is how it would be viewed. We do NOT have "friends" in that neighborhood. Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan and others there are either entirely or primarily Muslim nations. Then, most likely China, Russia and even Turkey and India would also view us as war criminals targeting citizens of a sovereign nation. You had best be only ranting because a Secretary of State you could never be. Best keep YOUR mitts out of politics and diplomacy. When you think about it rationally and intelligently, which can you name from any one of those countries that invaded another nation, other than border skirmishes? Forget about Russia, which is constantly scrapping with a couple of neighboring countries who are pro-Western thinking and former Soviet satellites, or who it claims are harboring "rebels." I doubt you could name any. The Soviet Union's army was in Afghanistan for ten years before it realized there was no hope of winning and finally left. After we got involved in Afghanistan, I recall the general statement Russians made to us-- You will find out what Afghanistan is like. It will be another Viet Nam for you. -- And frankly, that statement, viewed today, has been completely spot on. The cross-border tribes are so intertwined, those two countries should be called "Pakganistan." So, since Pakistan's "politics" are not the kind we fully understand, we have to play with cards we accepted.
THE HEADLINE
Yeah right.
This is as likely as Barrack Hussein going after the
goonionsunions.The Haqqani network is embedded in the Pakistani military, the civilian government, and in the ISI. The US intelligence services have known this for decades and have preferred to ignore the links. Now that the Pakistanis have made the links overt, it is time for the US government to stop pretending. Job One for Hillarity early in 2009 should have been to spell this out for the Pakis in words of one syllable - sadly she failed miserably, just as she has utterly failed across the whole SoS portfolio. She deserves to go down in history as the most ineffective SoS EVER.
I'm sick of posting this. Likewise I'm certain many are sick of seeing it...but GET THE HELL OUT OF PAKISTAN NOW...whomever is running our government's policy for that place.
If all the generals want wars I'll take up a collection, and we can find them plenty of video games they can play. Or they can buy a set of toy soldiers and line 'em up and knock 'em down.
Who in our country who has the power to stop this fiasco is even listening to us??????????
Sorry to bore you other Viners...I have been sick at heart about this matter for a long time. Now when I think about it and read about it...I'm sick at my stomach also.
If Pakistan refuses to cooperate with us then we should let them know we are going to build up India's military. We will give them the latest missiles, planes, and weapons to "defend" themselves from those tribes in the north. As a long time enemy of India I believe Pakistan will do anything to keep India as their equal.
@ORB
Condi would have done better...right?? I believe not. She was about as useless as warts. If she had done her job right as SoS we probably would have left there years ago but no they played the political game and we are still in Afghan trying to mop up the mess her people made. Namely Bush and Cheney. In fact if she had done her job right Haqqani would not be a factor in our war in Afghan. They would have been put on notice back in 2005 when she took the position.
India isn't anymore America's friend than Pakistan. The solution to the problem is to bring our troops home. Afghanistan will never be stable and you will never see the end of warfare in that country. Pakistan understands that which is why they are dealing with these people.
@ captainbrainlessman
How do you like all the new found power Bushie won for Iran, moron? He, Bushie, made them the most powerful country in the region - for absolutely no reason.
So let me get this straight. We need the Pakistanis so we can wage war against "terrorists" in Afghanistan. The Pakistanis are in bed with the Haqqanis and don't want us in their country because we caught bin Laden under their noses. If I recall my Muslim folklore correctly, the friend of my enemy is my enemy. What does the U.S. not understand about that. Bush, the jackass, in his simple-minded way couldn't understand that tribal cultures aren't interested in American style democracy. Obama and Clinton don't understand diplomacy with these people means "give me what I want and I'll give you what I want".
Personally, I don't give a damn about who runs Pakistan or Afghanistan any more than I cared about who ruled Viet Nam, Laos, Cambodia, or any other place the U.S. has sent the military since 1945.
Americans just wave their flags and curse Latinos, but send their sons and daughters off to die in places few Americans know or care about. Only the elite backers of politicians care because they, as Eisenhower warned, make a fortune over the twisted, maimed, and very dead bodies of our young people.
It won't make a difference who you vote for in 2012. The hydra of government will only raise a new head for everyone the voters cut off. I think the tea party representatives have clearly demonstrated that the lust is for power for power's sake, not a better America.
We need to put Pakistan on the list of states that sponsor terrorism.
Don't forget that (US) CIA trained the terrorists (al mujahidin) during Afghanistan and Soviet Union war.
.
Dear kountryking- Your's is truly one of the most ridiculous and laughable posts I have read in quite awhile. The upside to your post is most posters of your intellect do not vote and I can take solace in that.
dls-387641, then we need to put US in the list of states that support terrorism as well. Do you really think we go after every terrorist in the world? No. We don't. It is based on our national interest.
Eisenhower was right about the Military Industrial Complex; it was He, I believe that gave them that name. Add to it these:
There you have it in the Near Past, the Present and the Beginning. We have got to stop meddling where we have no business being!
While I agree we should steer clear of this sort of entanglement, and need to change our policy of perpetual war, a lot of you guys don't seem to understand that we are enacting what might be called "Pipeline Policy."
And jonjon, you forgot Dwight Eisenhower, one of the very few intelligent republickan presidents.
WStevens: Eisenhower was the subject of the first line of my post; I didn't touch on A. Lincoln or A. Jackson though, their quotes would have been less relative to the subject of Post #2.
We have got to stop meddling where we have no business being!
Absolutely, we never should have gone into Libya for example.
TY for your affirmation, Robert
"Will Pakistan ever go after the Haqqani Network?"
He!! NO.........they are snakes in the grass.....our enemy....
Let's keep giving them billions of dollars.....just like Obama's "Green" companies!!!!!!!!!
Let's raise taxes so idiot NoBama can SPEND MORE money!
No, they won't go after the. But what do you expect when you pay money to buy "friends." When you buy friends, you generally don't get what you pay for.
Did YOUR tax go up Patty?
- If so I envy you. You have been blessed with wealth, a few dollars less would not result in you putting off that much needed doctors visit for lack of funds.
- If not, why are you frothing at the mouth?
Patty-Virginia Beach.....Patty, exactly what tax of yours went up since Obama came into office ? We are all curious, was it the tanning tax or the tobacco tax ? We are all waiting.............
Patti why dont you join the terrorists since you seem to be so interested in spreading hate and disinformation?
I agree. Cut the funding to Pakistan and leave Afghanistan now!
Your taxes went up? Which country are you from, because in US, everyone's taxes have gone down in last 2 years.
Oh, and George "Mission Accomplished" Bush spent $7Trillion and couldn't catch Bin Laden
Why does Virginia produce such idiots - like Eric Cantor, and Patty.
Eric Cantor cut funding of FEMA in congress and later called FEMA to ask why people in earthquake and hurricane hit areas in Virginia are not getting help.
As a Virginian, I feel pretty ashamed
Fair enough ..... assuming you said the same thing when idiot Bush league was spending money.
Asking someone if they pay taxes is like asking a medicaid patient if they minds being charged twice for the same operation.
Why should I care? I'm not paying for it~!
Do you pay taxes logical-663460.??? I'm gussing not since you're doing exactly what OBAMA wants. *ENVY people who are sucessful*
How about you be quite and not envy other peoples tax dollars since you pay none what business is it of yours anyway? Get the government to stop wasting so much and perhaps people would be more inclined to pay a bit more.
Our politicians are bought so they think they can buy allies
Of course Patty's taxes went up during the Obama presidency. All of our taxes went up, just some of you don't the economic literacy to realize they went up. There are two ways a government can tax you. The direct way is through the taxes all of you are referring to. The indirect way a government can tax you is through printing money. Economically speaking, there is no difference between a government that raises your taxes 10% and a government that inflates your money by 10%. I know from prior experience that some of you will state that the official inflation rate is low right now. That is true, but misleading. The inflation rate is in the 2% range right now only because the government changed the way inflation is calculated - they no longer count food or energy prices. Count inflation the way it used to be counted and inflation is somewhere around 10%. We have printed a massive amount of money during the Obama presidency, even more than the already ridiculous amount Bush printed. All of you are kidding yourself if you think that will not negatively impact your personal finances. The only exception to the prior sentence is rich people who have their money in inflation-proof investments.
Hey Knightrider, just to let you know, Obama did not get Osama. The navy seals did. Obama has never put himself in harms way. Never will.
Speaking of literacy, Robert; do you ever re-read your babble before you post them? By the way, food and gas has been taken out of the "Cost of Living" lists for a long time now, Long before Obama came into office.
papabran: Please Note that Obama authorized the attack in Pakistani lands that rid the world of Bin Laden where Bush didn't have the cojones to offend our "Allies" in Pakistan by doing so... You see what his lack of courage during the Vietnam War led us to? Bantam Rooster then and now, starting wars that are a threat to neither yourself nor your and your cronies families.
At least Obama thinks things through before just sending thousands of REAL Men and Women into harms way by starting wars based on selective fables. YES, I'm referring to Libya!
Patty, you're a dope. Your taxes haven't gone up. You're so stupid I'll bet you backed Bushie's war to increase the power of Iran. He did succeed in increasing Iran's power; aside from listening to Bono, that was the only thing he succeeded at.
Robert, you're a liar. Food and energy prices have been removed from inflation indices for a long time, because of their volatility.
Lol, how is my argument affected by when they took food and energy prices out of the inflation index???? I'm well aware that food and energy were taken out a while ago, but that doesn't change the fact we are paying more for food and energy than we were a few years ago. The central argument that we have been taxed during the Obama and the Bush presidency is still valid. As far as the "babble" part, people who have valid points use them, people who don't resort to insults. Which category do you fit in?
Exactly same argument as above. If you believe I have told a lie, point that lie out to me. If you can't point that lie out to me, just admit you are wrong and try to grow up :)
Sounds like a paid political advertisement to me.
See my previous comment.
I would be very careful about bragging about that particular venture if I were you. It is very possible the party that takes over will be much worse than what was there before. At a similar point in time the invasion of Iraq was widely seen as a success. Wouldn't surprise anyone in the least if 5 years from now we look back at the unnecessary war in Libya and see it as a huge mistake.
ngratulations Robert, you've joined the ranks of those defending misstated and indefensible postings. You made a boo-boo and no amount of retributive posting will erase that. Obama's Administration did NOT delete the cost of food and gas from the cost of living. ALSO; "just some of you don't the economic literacy to realize they went up." does not make any sense. Luckily most of those posting here understand the illiterate statement without your help.
OH! By the way, I agree with Abe Lincoln regarding the Libyan Post:
I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they
can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring
them the real facts. Abraham Lincoln
Okay, read my first post again. No where in it do I say Obama deleted the cost of food and gas from the cost of living. I said the government does not calculate inflation the way it used to and we both agree on that - your post just goes one step further and says the change happened before Obama took office. I knew that, but it is irrelevant to the matter at hand so I didn't feel any need to include it.
You are correct, I accidentally left out the verb have. The correct sentence should be "...just some of you don't have the economic literacy to realize they went up." You accidentally left off the c and the o in congratulations and that wasn't the only mistake you made, but I don't see any point in spending too much time on grammer in a blog. The old saying about people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones comes to mind.
Your quote from Lincoln is ambiguous so I'm not sure how to interpret it, but I'm assuming from your previous post you are in favor of the U.S. attack. With that in mind, here is my rebuttal. The real facts about Libya are we attacked a government that was not attacking us. I thought we had learned our lesson about being careful during the last ten years, but apparently some people did not get the memo. Another fact about the Libyan war is that every dollar and every bit of attention spent on them reduced the amount of money and attention we could have spent elsewhere. We could have made a real difference in places like Egypt for example, but we seem to have squandered the opportunity.
Life itself is ambiguous , Robert. It is as specific as the English Language. I.E. it can be used as a scalpel or a shotgun. I've always thought that posts should be insightful and present a question; I've always preferred to express a thought and then the answer in the realm of the readers.
P.S.: The deletion of the "Co" in congratulations was not an omission on my part but a glitch in the posting, I write my replies in "Word" then spell check and cut-and-paste.
Pray tell who's property taxes went down? Who's business fees went down. Even here in Rhode Island our sales taxes which are 7% on most sales went up with new items included in the 7% sales tax. I'd even call healthcare a tax on mankind and the price of healthcare has gone up. So has taxes on fuels. How's paying well over 3 bucks per gallon treating you?
jonjojon, sounds like we have a classic case of a huge misunderstanding. You thought I was blaming Obama for taking food and energy out of the equation and I didn't realize I had inadvertently left the verb out of one of my sentences. If this helps any, I am no harder on Obama than I was on Bush. I am not complaining just to hear myself complain either. I am not happy with what I have seen out of the federal government these last ten years. I understand both Bush and Obama were handed a pretty challenging set of circumstances, but I keep trying to imagine what our country will look like ten years from now and I don't like what I see. Hopefully we will turn a corner and get back on track, but I'm starting to doubt it. Take care my friend and we will chat more on a different subject later.
What are they gonna do, arrest themselves for aiding and abetting?
make Pakistan into a glassy parking lot and send a clear message to America's other friends .
Hey Merc76, how much to contract you to hold the Target Designator about a mile away from Ground Zero? Seems like you might be perfect for the assignment.
yup, nothing says to the people of the world "i want you to be my friends" better than killing millions with weapons of mass destruction. :p
no need for a ground spotter........horseshoes ...hand grenades ...and nukes...close is fine
...Mercenary ?..............Okie, doak Mr. Cheney, will get right on that !
Agree. It is time to flatten Pakistan. US has essentially created a monster in the Indian subcontinent. With all fiancial aid that has gone to the Pakis, they are now well equipped with al sorts of weapons including nuclear that they obtain from China. Pakistan should be declared a terrorist state. Indirectly, by giving aid to Pakistan, the US has been supporting terrorists.
The reason we are over there is to protect corporate interests in the Middle East and India. I think they should pay the bill from now on.
What? Make the corporate elites actually pay their own way? Never happen. They prefer we foot the bill both in money and in blood. And some are so foolish to actually think to do so is patriotic and in their best interest. Go figure.
Has always been like this for Centuries
Wars are being fought by the young, the foolies and the poor.
Who was that great American who said the Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels?
Samuel Johnson made that famous pronouncement in 1775.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. You all sound like a bunch of girls you know that. You are all cowardly, finger pointers at everything that is wrong with this world. Bush is an idiot, Obama is a socialist, The CIA are bad guys. None of you could ever come close to performing the jobs that these men handle on a daily basis. Yet you sit back on these message boards and spew your un-intelligent, Conspiracy driven hate fest at all things that you dont agree with, or that your Liberal Hippie professors told you to think. Fact: The world needs tough, unflinching people to do the dirty work that world indicators force them to do to preserve their freedoms and ways of lives. You all sit here and act like your so much better than our elected officials and your all just jealous, spiteful hypocrites. Go back to your less than important lives and stop thinking your opinions or your views matter, especially to true patriots that know all our presidents are doing what needs to be done when the time calls for it.
Given that the country is 14.7 trillion dollars in debt and rising I don't think we could have done much worse.
Swan, our rising deficits and mounting debt are the result of us - the American people - refusing to pay for the things we need to defend out country, maintain social programs that a large segment of our population needs to survive, and maintain/improve our infrastructure. Obviously, our Presidents and members of Congress share responsibility for what has been happening during the past several decades, but in a country such as ours with the form of government we have the buck stops with us.
As dismal as our fiscal situation is I believe it could have been worse if we had allowed our defunct "market forces" lead the way to economic recovery. Had we done that the talk today would have been about how to get out of the second Great Depression rather than job creation plans, economic stimulus, or whether or not our corporations (milti-nationals) will ever decide to invest and create jobs in the USA instead of China. Yes, as bad as our fiscal and economic predicaments are it could have been a lot worse...
Dominick we don't write the budget. The President does and congress passes it. However you are right about one thing, it's the American people's fault for voting these losers in. What party are you in? If you vote republicrat on a consistent basis then look at yourself also.
First off this is entirely speculation. You can't say what would happen; you can only guess like the rest of us. Secondly the policies that created the problem should never have been enacted (read Reagan) and never have been propagated (read everyone after Reagan).
Our Presidents submit a budget proposal to Congress, which is more often than not dead on arrival regardless of who the occupant of the Oval Office is. Congress writes and passes the final version of the budget and the President either signs or vetoes it.
Ultimately, our elected officials do what their constituents want, if they don't they are not re-elected. Former President George H. W. Bush referred to trickle down economic as voodoo economics, and endorsed the need to raise revenues to balance the Federal Government budget. He was a one term President.
Our fiscal and economic situation by mid 2008 was so dire that former President Bush admitted the likelihood of a total economic collapse and proposed the TARP to save our financial institutions and avert a second Great Depression. The economic policies embraced and put in place by the Reagan administration and a complicit Congress hurt our economy and fiscal integrity more than all other administrations combined. Deficit spending is unsustainable and every step must be taken to reverse the trend of the past 4 or 5 decades, but balancing the budget and eventually paying off the national debt can not be achieved through spending reductions alone.
Our tax rates are too low, especially the capital gains tax rate which has gone down from 28% in the Reagan era down to 16% today. Revenue increases are necessary, the key is to ensure new taxation is used strictly for deficit reduction, and that accompanying spending reductions are also implemented.
Unfortunately, the latter is easier said than done. Regardless of how we feel about the Muslim threat or any other threat, the fact is that we must remain vigilant and ready to protect our country, and that if we want to remain a superpower we must pay for a robust and effective military. Trying to balance the budget on the backs of children (education), senior citizens and the poor is a recipe for long term disaster. One of our greatest problems is the fact that too many Americans are unqualified to fill the 21st century jobs that are available in the USA and elsewhere, if anything, we should spend more on education and retraining programs. On SS and MEDICARE I will simply say that unless our young are ready to take in grandma, feed her, and pay for their medical care they better support those programs or embrace Sarah's death panels...which are starting to look like a Freudian slip.
I really don't care about all the excuses. The budget needs to be balanced, superpower or not, raise taxes or not, cut spending or not. Bottom line is we have to pay our bills somehow. Also the only reason we have to worry so much about the "Muslim threat" is because we are the prime benefactor Israel. We can solve that one by stopping giving money to everyone involved on both sides and abstaining from a few UN votes. Also I took in my mom (who died of cancer a year back) although see was smart enough to be financially secure by the time she was older so I didn't have to pay for everything. Still in many countries kids do take care of their parents which I think is a great idea.
Cut all aid to the bastards.
Pakistan needs to worry that it will lose American support and friendship. China has a major interest in South Asia for minerals, oil and ports; China will not have an interest in funding the ISI connection to Haqqani because of its Islamic extremism that will foster unrest and terrorism in the Muslim population in China. Even though we need the support of the Pakistanis to maintain a supply line to Afghanistan and have deep concerns with the Pakistani use of nuclear weapons, we need to put Pakistan on the list of states that sponsor terrorism like North Korea.
Pakistan only wants US currency (and it has to be delivered in cash, in wrapped $100s/$100,000 per box). Pakistan says it is now an ally of China, not the US, but will continue to accept the cash to purchase arms and ammunition for the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Boobytrap the boxes of money. Surprise! Now you're Achmed the Handless. Do it repeatedly, until the mere sight of a $100 bill is enough to make a Pakistani cower in terror.
It is way past time to junk so-called "ties" with Pakistan. That country has proven time and again it is not a friend of the US and has little to no interest in helping win the war on terrorism. Hell, Pakistan encourages terrorism and gives safe haven to terrorists. We need to stop pouring money and talent into that armpit of the world and begin dealing with it for what it is -- a terrorist nation.
Why in hell did we ever get the idea that we could change these people or anyone else in that region? How many have to die and how much do we have to spend before we realize that five minutes after we leave they will go right back to business as usual?
This is the problem with attempting to deal rationally with the cult of death, destruction, and hate called "Islam" . . .
It is the reverse of the "divide and conquer" rule, where the enemy intentionally divides itself into a virtual festival of factions and then uses its disjoint organization as an excuse to do whatever it desires, including burning every candle at both ends . . .
The solution is to treat all the factions identically when there is a dilemma or contradiction . . .
In other words, when one faction declines to fight against another faction which without doubt is our enemy, then the declining faction ispso facto becomes our enemy, as well . . .
Remember that Pakistan, which at least in some respects claims to be our ally, was harboring Osama bin Laden not so far from one of its military or police stations . . .
The longer our political and military leaders in the Middle East allow the Pakistanis to play jerk-off mind games, the worse the situation will become . . .
Nuke 'em!
It got the Japanese on the program in 1945, and it will work in the Middle East in 2011, which is fabulous!
Fabulous! :D
Only to a fool does terrorism and Islam mean the same thing.....
Only to a fool does terrorism and Islam mean the same thing..... only a fool reads words that are not there the word terrorism or terrorist is not in his post
Yeah, whatever Joe, keep on loving em.
Islam is a rational religion. And the fight is not with Islam. If it was...there would be NO contest!
Baldenario, some of the worst crimes against humanity have been carried out by Christians. The problem is not Islam but religion, greed, and intolerance.
I want to go hiking in Waziristan, Fa La La, Fa La La, a wandering I will go. See you there Josh, Shane, Sarah!
The Haqqani network must be dismantled. That's a given. The question is how. Pakistan cannot do it, for it would open it to the aggression by India. It's a geopolitical mess created by the Brits, when they divided India. This said, we go back to the question: How to difuse the Haqqani ticking bomb, without endangering Pakistan? I am not a geopolitical expert. Where is the UN by the way? Aren't they created just for this purpose? Can you imagine ten thousan blue casks from Cambodia, in Waziristan? I can. Cambodia has the manpower! All that is needed is the will to help Pakistan to get rid of this nightmare! If I were the Pakistani President, I would be asking the UN for help, now! The last thing: tax the hell out of Warren Buffett ... he likes it!
I guess I've forgotten..."We care about Afghanistan because?"
I can only wonder how many citizens of Afghanistan actually care if they live in a democaracy. How many have a clue about what Democaracy is, and why an "outsider country" is trying to stuff a different form of government down their collective throats.
For thousands of years the hills have been at war, either between tribal worlords, or Muslim fanatics. Everyday the local people hear firearms clatter in the distance, or rocket propelled granade launchers send streaks of death across the icy sky. Men dressed in typical high desert garb ride in groups aboard small trucks or other vehicles carrying an assortment of weapons, and searching for targets like hunters after prey. Meanwhile the American soldiers and government make the local power barons richer, and more corrupt with billions of dollars that don't do a thing to help the poverty stricken people that in truth would just like to be left alone to sort out their own issues.
Our presence in Afghanistan will go down in the books as another failed effort at democracy. And when we finally leave the country the dust of war, and THE NUMEROUS bloody battles will linger in the minds of tribal villagers, and their families.
at country king :maybe you should move to pakistan so we don't have to listen to you any more! you can speak your mind because of the wars we've been in.
at country king :maybe you should move to pakistan so we don't have to listen to you any more! you can speak your mind because of the wars we've been in.
"Will Pakistan ever go after the Haqqani Network?" Is the current title of this article.
The answer is an ambiguous one, and the reason is: it's a Muslim state, there is wide-spread corruption. They smile at the U.S. when they receive the billions we give them and then betray us when we're not looking. They even hid OBL, attacked our embassy, and I could go on and on and on.
Don't count on their CONCERTED effort with the Haqqani Network, sure, they may give a little 'lip service' to us but only to keep the U.S. dollars flowing into their corrupt hands and feed the terrorist groups, and don't forget, it was a Pakistani scientist that sold North Korea nuclear tecnology to them with the bind approval of Pakistani officials.
They aren't an ally.
My opinion.
Not as long as they continue to profit by them.
Based on the threat of military action made last week by Sen. Graham, Pakistan has offered it's ally the right to build naval and air bases in Pakistan...............that's not the US btw who they refer to as their ex-ally.............it's China.
Glad China will step up to the plate and spend some of that WalMart money they've made for the last decade. Not to mention they own us for TRILLIONS in debt that your kids will be paying for instead of a national defense. Better teach them Mandrin while you can.
Yeah 3rdParty, we really need to spend more on national defense, like we don't spend enough now. Neo-con much??
Does this article smack at an attempt to prolong and maintain this circus of a war? We all know that the military has the means and technology to seek out these terror groups by use of new devices that we have little knowledge about. The "remote controlled hobby airplane" that we just heard about is probably in reality already in our military arsenal but better ans smaller and with camera capabilities. They are probably already in use in Afghanistan and the mountain areas of Pakistan. The bigger picture indicates that we are looking at a much longer war theater in that area than anyone wants to say or which to admit. This is troubling in the wake of all the issues we are dealing with concerning our economy and the jobs market here at home. Our military complex always equates war with fixing the economy but in reality we just cannot keep up the war machinery any longer. The middle east will always be at war with each other and history proves that is the case. With Pakistan getting pressured by their own inaction it only creates a more profound danger in that area and gives the Indians a reason to be alert and ready. This all creates more tension than that area can absorb. The different Islamic sects will never agree on any kind of peace among themselves but are united against the west. So just what is our mission?
But for Pakistan's nukes, we would have already cut them off financially. I would hope that some of our defense/intelligence budget has gone towards pinpointing exactly where those weapons are should the need arise to take them out.
The status quo over there isn't sustainable because our so called partner only provides a wink and a nod at best. The best ending, imo, is to get out of Afghanistan, wipe out every nuke in Pakistan along with the capability to ever make one again (not likely) and become best friends with India. Their not stupid enough to attempt a 9/11 style attack because they understand the consequences. So, their perfectly happy hitting our troops when they can while cashing our checks with a smile on their faces.
Glass them and split the land with India!
Somewhere in my memory is a statement made by the US Government that we would consider state sponsored terrorism as an act of war......hmmmmmmm...oh, yea...it must have been made when we had a patriot in the Whitehouse
Yes you should run the country. We need your logic to make an enemy of Pakistan since they have nukes. We should just attack them and let those nut jobs press the button. And AC, Bush attacked IRAQ if he had any balls he would have attacked Saudi Arabia where the terrorists came from. But No he didn't he visited them and wore a robe and wore a Berka. Hi Mohammed I'm George Bush Jr. If I drop trow and bend over could you fill me with more gas please? Yep! bunch of friggin patriots.
@MikeyMike
Man, you knocked it out the park!!! I agree with everything you said 1000%
Never trust Pakistan's Government, they are in the same class as Iran! I agree they need to be put on the list of countries that harbor Terrorists! We should cut all funding to them! Too bad our President does not pay attention to what the people of our country want!
Scott, foreign and military aid to Pakistan has been flowing for at least a couple of decades. The Obama administration is the first to authorize strikes against Al Qaeda and Taliban targets in Pakistan, mostly in Waziristan, the first to order a raid in that country without informing or seeking permission to do so, and the first to publicly confront the Pakistani government for their inability or unwillingness to go after the radical elements that are attacking our troops, diplomats, businessmen and our interests from that country.
As great as it was to *get UBL* the cost just keeps going up as the price we paid to do it.
Billions of stealth tech gone to China from the crashed helicopter.
Decades worth of diplomacy down the drain.
Billions spent to keep Americans inspecting those nukes. Now what? And do you really think it was worth it?
Dominick-2063552:
Why are you providing facts to counter these rabid, narrow-minded individuals rants. Don't you know that logic, common sense, and facts are the bane of the super-patriot?
BTW, we should do more than just end foreign and military aid to Pakistan ($11B since 2001), we should suspend ALL foreign and military aid immediately with the exception of a few humanitarian projects, such as fighting the spread of diseases and helping feed children dying of malnutrition. Why are we giving billions to Israel every year? Why are we giving almost a billion to Egypt, and other countries, most of which despise us and don't want us around every year?
If we had invested the $1.2T we have spent in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001, and the billions of dollars we have been giving to countries that either don't need our help or hate our guts, right here in the USA our fiscal and economic woes would not exist and our society would be much better off than it is.
Suggesting the Pakistani government is not doing enough to destroy the Haqqani network is as naive as suggesting the Afghan government is not doing enough to destroy the Taliban. The societies of most North African, Middle Eastern and Persian Gulf countries are tribal, have ancient traditions, and are suspicious of each other. To survive and function as a unified country they have formed a series of alliances and reached compromises that allow each of those tribes to maintain their traditions, values, lifestyle and enjoy varying degrees of autonomy. Insisting on the central government to go after specific tribes is like asking a politician to commit political suicide and a nation to propose its de facto disintegration. The governments in Islamabad, Kabul and other capitals in the Muslim world are continuously walking a tight rope trying to survive in what is, ostensibly, an extremely difficult society to maintain unified.
For better or worse, the onus of fighting terrorism and, especifically, threats against our national security and our interests, rests strictly on us. We should not trust or rely on any of the governments in that part of the world to take robust action to end terrorism, if nothing else because the anti-American feelings that exist among members of the Haqqani network, Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Hezbollah and other such organization are more widespread than we care to admit. I don't believe all Muslims hate the U.S. and are actively fighting our interests, but I believe most would be delighted to see us leave their countries and never return.
You lost most of these folks by the second sentence. They only parrot what they're told to say from the Huffington Post or the Daily KoS.
Dominick -- No, it is YOUR comments that are as naive and they are obtuse. Can you not even read? Even the article states: Pakistan's Lt Gen Asif Yasin Malik .... has YET to carry out ANY operations against Islamic militants ... in North Waziristan. In blunt terms, he's given them safe haven within the borders of his country. Of course he won't attack them, because they aren't stupid enough to attack HIM. As a result, if they leave Pakistani's alone, they are free to kill anyone, anywhere else in the world, whenever they choose. Are you truly so blind as to believe that Pakistan's Army are doing everything they can to stop terrorism? If so, again, read the article: Pakistan's Maj Gen Athar Abbas stated that any intelligence agency ... should maintain .. positive relations .. and contact with any terrorist organization. He does not say they would STOP the terrorist organization from doing anything, just that they would maintain contact. That ALONE means he is aiding and abetting that terrorist organization, by facilitating and, in a way, sheltering them.
Pakistani's are worried that the U.S. might attack them? No, they shouldn't be, but they SHOULD be worried that by sheltering those terrorists, that we might need to go THROUGH them to stop the terrorists. If that's the case, they brought it on themselves -- and we warned them.
Mike, I either did not express myself clearly enough or you misunderstood what I said. My opinion is, essentially, the same as yours.
Terrorists constantly blow up stuff in Pakistan. They can't do anything about it. It's time to blow up the amunition over there, drop a fart bomb and leave. Bin is dead, it took 10 years and $$$Trillions. Nothing will ever change and who cares. Cut off the Billions in aid, lock the Visa's in a vault and leave em there. Throw out the Diplomats, spies and cronies. Europe and China need their oil. We don't need em at all and certainly not as allies. Forget you !
Domenick, Mike got exercised and forgot to read it all. You are quite right.
What nobody seems to understand is that you have also described the way the the countries of the world work. And that is why we pay tons of money to people, including but not limited to Pakistan, who are -in part- our enemies.