E-mail updates
Follow on Twitter
Subscribe to RSS
New Jersey Governor's Office
N.J. Gov. Chris Christie with Lt. Gov. Kim Guadagno in November 2011. Despite Guadagno's involvement in a criminal investigation of pension abuse, Christie has not appointed a special prosecutor.
By Mark Lagerkvist
New Jersey Watchdog
New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie — a rising star in the national Republican Party — called an overhaul of the state pension system his "biggest governmental victory." He now faces embarrassment from flaws his reforms failed to fix.
The sweeping new laws increase contributions from public workers, decrease benefits and halt cost-of-living hikes. According to Christie, the changes should save the state $120 billion over the next 30 years.
But his reform did little to stop the age-old New Jersey practice of double-dipping, in which employees "retire," start collecting a pension, and then are rehired, often the next day. Christie's own deputy chief of staff collects $219,000 a year from the state — a $130,000 salary as a top aide to the governor plus $89,000 in state pension.
Worse for Christie, a criminal investigation is under way involving his running mate, New Jersey Lt. Gov. Kim Guadagno.
As a county sheriff in 2008, Guadagno made false statements to enable her chief officer to pocket nearly $85,000 a year in retirement pay while drawing an $87,500 annual salary. The double-dipping scheme first was reported by New Jersey Watchdog in 2010.
The state's investigation is assigned to the Attorney's General's Division of Criminal Justice, a unit where Guadagno once served as deputy director. Despite the apparent conflict, Christie has not appointed a special prosecutor.
A spokesman for Christie and Guadagno declined to comment. The Attorney General's Office did not respond to questions.
Pension abuses are so rampant in New Jersey that even the agency investigating Guadagno has its own controversy.
Twenty-three supervisors and investigators for the Attorney General’s Office and DCJ are using legal loopholes to draw salaries and pension pay, New Jersey Watchdog found. On average, each pockets $164,000 a year — $96,000 in salary and $68,000 in pension.
Most "retired" for just one night. Those officers left their positions with the Attorney General’s Office only to return to the same employer the next morning with new job titles — and two paychecks instead of one.
In a continuing series of investigative reports, New Jersey Watchdog exposed similar double-dipping practices involving 125 officers employed by prosecutors, 18 officials from a state Homeland Security Unit and 44 county sheriffs and undersheriffs — in addition to the Guadagno story.
Democratic State Sen. Fred Madden is a "triple-dipper" who collects more than $241,000 a year from public coffers — $49,000 as a legislator, $106,983 as a police academy dean and an $85,272 pension as a State Police retiree.
"I don't have a problem with it at all," said Madden.
The Guadagno controversy
While Madden and others profit from loopholes in pension rules, the circumstances surrounding Christie's second-in-command raise questions of fraud and deception.
Guadagno was elected sheriff of Monmouth County in 2007. She previously worked as an assistant U.S. attorney and as an assistant New Jersey attorney general. From 1998 to 2001, Guadagno served as deputy director of the DCJ — the unit now assigned to investigate the case in which she's a major figure.
In 2008, Guadagno hired Michael Donovan Jr., a retired investigator for the county prosecutor, as the sheriff’s “chief of law enforcement division.” She announced the appointment in a memo to her staff.
Monmouth County Sheriff's Office
The focus of a criminal investigation of pension abuse, Chief Michael Donovan takes an oath of office in the Monmouth County, N.J., Sheriff's Office on Sept. 22, 2008. Donovan's job title was fudged to allow him to collect his pension and his pay at the same time. The swearing in was witnessed by his mother, Emily, and then-Sheriff Kim Guadagno, now the state's lieutenant governor. Donovan was sworn in by Judge Lawrence M. Lawson.
But there was a problem. As a sheriff's chief officer — a position covered by the pension system — Donovan would be required to stop receiving pension checks and resume contributions to the state retirement fund.
Guadagno fudged the job title, so Donovan could double-dip. In county payroll records, the oath of office and a news release, Donovan was called the sheriff's "chief warrant officer" — a low-ranking position exempt from the pension system.
A chief warrant officer oversees the service of warrants and other legal documents. In contrast, the sheriff's official website identified Donovan as "sheriff's officer chief," supervising 115 subordinate officers and 30 civilian employees.
On Guadagno’s organizational chart, Donovan was listed as chief of law enforcement — and the position of chief warrant officer was conspicuously absent.
The ruse allowed Donovan to collect an $87,500 salary from Monmouth County in addition to an $85,000 pension as a retired county employee.
A Conflicted Investigation
When Guadagno was elected as Christie's running mate in the 2009 election, she resigned as sheriff.
In 2010, state Treasury pension officials began to ask Monmouth County about retiree Donovan's employment. "I would respectfully request that former Sheriff Guadagno be contacted..." replied her successor, Shaun Golden, in a letter forwarded to the Treasury.
The Treasury denied the existence of any correspondence or email contact with Guadagno or Christie regarding Donovan. Officials also rejected requests for records of the Treasury's inquiry.
In response, New Jersey Watchdog filed a formal complaint with the state Government Records Council, a body consisting of gubernatorial appointees and cabinet officials. One year later, the council has yet to render an advisory opinion.
Meanwhile, the state Police and Firemen's Retirement System's Board of Trustees took action of its own.
"It's a double-whammy," said PFRS chairman John Sierchio. "If you're going to retire under one job title and come back under another title, we have a problem with that. The chief of sheriff is a covered title under the pension system — and they should be contributing instead of drawing out."
The PFRS board voted in May 2011 to call for a criminal investigation of Donovan and parallel instances involving John Dough, of Essex County, and Harold Gibson, of Union County. The case was referred to DCJ.
However, the investigation is riddled with a maze of potential conflicts of interest:
- DCJ is probing allegations involving its own former deputy director, Guadagno.
- Nearly two dozen DCJ investigators and supervisors are "double-dippers" who collect state paychecks and pensions.
- Attorney General Jeffrey Chiesa, a Christie appointee, is ultimately in charge of the probe of fellow cabinet member Guadagno. Chiesa is also former chief counsel to Christie.
- Despite evidence of possible wrongdoing by his lieutenant governor, Christie has not appointed a special prosecutor or authorized an independent investigation.
One year later, the PFRS board remains in the dark. "I keep asking, but we haven't been told anything," said Sierchio.
New Jersey Governor's Office
Lt. Gov. Kim Guadagno of New Jersey. When she was a county sheriff, her office fudged a job description and organizational charts to allow an aide to double-dip on his pension. Guadagno has declined to comment.
Sean Conner, a spokesman for Christie and Guadagno, refused to listen to questions about Guadagno's role or the need for a special prosecutor.
"Let me stop you right there," Conner told New Jersey Watchdog. "If it was referred to DCJ, you need to call DCJ."
The Attorney General's Office did not respond to questions about the investigation.
Back in Monmouth County, Donovan has another new job title — but he’s still a double-dipper. In February 2011, Golden named him undersheriff in charge of law enforcement — a strikingly similar position, but one apparently exempt in the labyrinth of pension rules. Donovan currently gets an $86,000 annual pension on top of his $92,000 salary.
While sheriff's chief, Donovan pocketed $227,000 in retirement checks. Since he did not re-enroll in the pension system, he avoided $18,000 in contributions to the retirement fund. If state authorities ultimately determine Donovan violated pension rules, he could be forced to repay $245,000.
Reform...except for double-dipping
Pension fraud and widespread abuse are nothing new in New Jersey.
The federal Securities and Exchange Commission accused New Jersey of pension fraud in 2010. It was the first time the SEC had taken action against a state government over public pension funds.
According to the SEC, New Jersey misled its bond investors from 2001 to 2007 by failing to disclose it had not met its obligation to fund public workers' pension funds. The lawsuit was settled with a cease-and-desist order, which the state accepted without admitting or denying the charges. The alleged fraud occurred on the watch of four previous governors.
Christie vowed to overhaul the pension system. With the state facing a $45 billion pension shortfall when he took office, the new governor spearheaded legislation that he signed into law last year.
"We are putting the people first and daring to touch the third rail of politics to bring reform to unsustainable system," stated Christie in a news release. “We are once again showing the people of New Jersey that our state is leading the way on the biggest challenges before us and remains unafraid to do what is hard, but necessary."
But the reforms did little to halt widespread double-dipping by numerous public employees, including Christie's deputy chief of staff.
Louis Goetting gets $219,000 a year from the state — $130,000 in salary as a top aide to the governor plus $89,000 in state pension payments from an early retirement deal. Christie hired Goetting in 2010 as a budget guru to help trim the cost of government.
In addition, Goetting (pronounced “getting”) received two golden parachutes from public coffers before joining Christie — severance packages of $190,000 from Brookdale Community College in 2009 and $180,000 from University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey in 2002.
New Jersey Governor's Office
Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey has touted his pension reforms, which have done little to halt the practice of double-dipping by public employees, including his deputy chief of staff.
The bottom line: Goetting has gotten more than $1.1 million in pension and severance pay — and he still draws a six-figure salary from the state.
In answer to questions about Goetting's double-dips, the governor's press office has reiterated a statement Christie issued last year: "There is no one in my administration, myself included, who understands about the operation of this government better than Lou Goetting does. And so the people of New Jersey have gotten an incredible bargain.”
Pension reforms will not be complete without an investigative staff to monitor potential abuses, according to PFRS chairman Sierchio. He noted there are 275,000 retirees — but no investigators assigned to review complaints.
"We don't have anybody watching the store," said Sierchio. "We've got an $80 billion pension system, and nobody to investigate anything. Once you get your pension, you never have to look over your shoulder."
New Jersey Watchdog is a news website devoted to public service journalism. Read more about veteran investigative reporter Mark Lagerkvist.
Leave a Comment:
Well Gov Christy you got some splanning to do.
Isn't this always the way, the same people claiming to cut government cost's are the first with their hands in the cookie jar.
Meanwhile they cut payout's to people that have payed faithfully for years!
What exactly does he need to explain? He put in place a plan to save 120 million over 30 years and does not have his hand in the cookie jar.
If a double-dipping problem exists, which is common in almost every state, then additional reform needs to be done.
jpeg: From the article:
Worse for Christie, a criminal investigation is underway involving his running mate, New Jersey Lt. Gov. Kim Guadagno.
As a county sheriff in 2008, Guadagno made false statements to enable her chief officer to pocket nearly $85,000 a year in retirement pay while drawing an $87,500 annual salary. The double-dipping scheme first was reported by New Jersey Watchdog in 2010.
The state's investigation is assigned to the Attorney's General's Division of Criminal Justice, a unit where Guadagno once served as deputy director. Despite the apparent conflict, Christie has not appointed a special prosecutor.
Your point is??
An investigation of his running mate....how does this make him at fault?
Is Obama criminally liable for Biden's gaff's?
What explaining does Christie have to do? Let's see .... how about his pig headed refusal to participate in a federally funded highway project after he lied about how much it would cost New Jersey? How about his using the state helicopter for personal trips? How about losing federal education funds because he was too lazy to get the forms completed? Christie has a lot of 'splainin to do. If he is a rising star in the GOP then the GOP is in bigger trouble than we thought.
As for the last part, "Christie has not appointed a special prosecutor." The matter is under investigation already. Why would he need to appoint a special investigator?
lakerman2....how about sticking to the subject. The story has nothing to do with any of that.
Due to the obvious conflict of interest the article pointed out. Try harder.
Sorry......the person does not work for the department doing the investigation....there is no conflict.
Yes, there obviously is. Read the article again.
well, yeah Jpeg... you right wingers want President Obama blamed for anything that goes under under him so it's fair game that Christie be held accountable for anything that goes on during his watch.
He needs to start 'splainin' why he is affiliated with a political party that wants to vilify teachers, firefighters, police, and garbage collectors as overpaid, over-pensioned, under-educated, incompetent, worthless, slacking union thugs. Or why his party affiliation wants to continue corporate welfare with tax breaks for the wealthy and taxpayer funded subsidies for big oil including an unregulated financial system that still experiences bad behavior and huge losses. And, why his party affiliation doesn't mind higher fees charged by banks, insurance and pharmaceutical companies, and Wall Street after they've been approved for a socialized bailout from the pockets of the very people(including their children and their children's children)they vilify, thereby killing Capitalism. Also, he needs to explain why the party he is affiliated with has brought about the highest unemployment and outsourcing of jobs in decades! And no doublespeak or other BS permitted. That would be a great start.
jpeg, an obvious shill for Christie, is here for the sole purpose of defending Christie. After your 20th response, the rationale is obvious. No point in responding to him. When he's not watching right wing propaganda films, he defends pigs.
The reality is as others have figured out, Christie is yet another Republican who will NEVER see a problem with their friends, and especially the wealthy milking the system for everything they can. On the other hand, when long term employees (cops, teachers, office workers) begin to suffer from inflation with their pensions fixed forever, and watch them shrink along with their ability to east a and live, well, too bad. That pig and his cronies will have moved on to the fed level to deprive others of their medicare, SS, unemployment, and other protections. The Republicans are a scourge that ought to be sent home.
I didn't think gold could tarnish. Guess the GOP's "Golden Child" is really made out of feldspar.
Double-dipping is being funded by the retires that actually retired and the taxpayer. Maybe no one is breaking the law but it isn't right and Christie's reform was nothing but a sham to aid his cronies.
Jpeg,
The Governor needs to explain the fact he vowed to overhaul the pension program and completely overlooked the double dipping issue. If he did it on purpose, then he needs to be investigated. If he did it on accident, then he's incompetent.
I really have a hard time believing the Governor of a state was not informed there was a double dipping issue costing the state millions each year. Instead he chose to "increase contributions from public workers, decrease benefits and halt cost-of-living hikes."
The buck stops with him. It was his "biggest governmental victory." And its a joke.
I agree with jpeg.
If Christie has done something wrong, then I'm all for going after him. But if his "crime" is not fixing every problem with the NJ retirement system then I don't think he's done anything worthy of attack. By the way, the double dipping problem exists in most states - it's not unique to NJ. It's also not a Dem/Rep issue - people of all political persuasions do it.
He doesn't have to have these scam artists on this team. Why would he employ someone engaged in a practice he says he is against?
OK, let's see now, Christie has had a positive impact on Jersey but since he has only achieved 70% of what he wants to do with a hostile legislature you have to nail him for the other 30%????? As for teachers, fire fighters and police, why does a school administrator with 1501-3000 kids need $165,000 a year? If they are worth the money (more then the Gov makes) why are there so many problems in the schools? He is not against teachers, he is against BAD teachers. He is against a poor tenure system. He is agains the Public Unions. When you go down the shore the towns are a mile wide and 1-3 miles long but each town has a full police department with the Chief and all the Officers then the patrolmen not to mention all the vehicles, buildings and dispatchers. He has chosen his battles so far and has accomplished much. Much more to do since the State is so screwed up after years of democratic rule.
Eat Rolos,
So, since I don't like organized religion, I should fire everyone that works for me that is Christian or Muslim?
If someone is doing something illegal, that's one thing...but if they are engaged in a legal practice, it's different (at least for me).
For all you people condemning my comments...answer the simple question....how do you legally prevent someone who retired from working again?
How far do you think a law stating that "you already worked for the state so you are no longer qualified" would go in court???
I didn't say it was right, but how do you legally stop it.
jpeg, perhaps the reason the other commenters are aggressive towards the reforms is because instead of going after obvious abuse of the system, he clamped down on the benefits going to everyone else. There is no doubt his legislation is going to save the state money, but with loopholes this obvious and his own running mate directly involved in the controversy it looks like he's trying to absorb the losses created by the cheaters by gutting the system as a whole.
The defense that this happens in many states is beside the point, especially when the state in question has a leader who so boldly trumpeted how he was reforming the pension system. That he would allow such abuses to continue in light of his supposed reforms is either shameful or idiotic--I can't decide which, perhaps both?
In response to your question on how a pension limit would work is quite obvious. If you are currently working for the same entity that you had retired from then you do not begin collecting a pension from the job that quailified you for said pension until your current employment is terminated. If you go back and forth working for the state and then not again then your pension turns off and on. Simple. Same idea is used for Medicare benefits. If you're employed then your employer coverage is prime, if not Medicare is prime. If you go back and forth it goes back and forth.
Can the Party of No do anything right (no pun intended)?
1 Opinion, the same people who are double dipping also got their pensions cut. My question stands....how do you legally stop someone who retired from the government, from returning to government work?
I dont have a problem with double dipping, every gov agency in the US does this, lets just pretend instead of double dipping they retired and went away and the agency hires someone. Whats the difference? The taxpayer isnt losing any money, since someone else needs to fill that spot, the double dipper would take.
Religion has legal protections.
Christie says he is against this practice. Why does he employ people that are engaged in it?
you can't stop them from working. But you CAN stop them from receiving government pension checks while they hold a government job. If you go back to work for the state, the checks stop coming.
See, easy stuff...
It actually sounds like they do have rules in place to prevent it, but they are working around the system. To me retiring means that you are not working any more, except maybe for a part time job. To be paid a pension, and take another position that may entitle you to another pension is wrong. It does not matter which party you belong too. I do not understand how they can justify it to themselves let alone to the tax paying public.
One of them was triple dipping. They should all have to pay back what they have been paid. I do not know how common this is in other states but even if legal it is morally wrong.
jpeg, the problem isn't that people are double dipping legally. The problem is the person who Christie appointed to clean up the system is defrauding the system to benefit her friends. She should be released from her duties of government service and thanked for her time by the people of New Jersey and told Good luck with your future endeavors. The fact that Gov Christie won't do this or appoint a special prosecutor means he is patronizing the system. I am glad we are getting a good look at the REAL Gov Christie now instead of this coming out after the 2016 election when he would probably run.
I'd like to know why Christie didn't do a better job of vetting his running mate, or if he knew about this. Either way, he is responsible for who he runs with. Ignorance is no excuse, especially at that level!
jpeg your question stands because it completely misses the point. I'm in no way suggesting we stop people from working. I am suggesting a simple and obvious requirement that a pension should not be in effect while someone is currently employed by the entity that is paying the pension. It's a retirement benefit, if you haven't retired from the company than you don't yet get to collect the benefit. But feel free to work there as long as you want. In case your misinterpretation is taken further, I am also not saying they would never get their pension, unless they work until they're dead I guess, it is simply not in effect at any time they are employed by the origin of the pension.
I don't see double dipping as being the real problem here. One person works 40 years and gets 2 checks, or One person works 20 years gets a check and a 2nd person works same for 20 years gets a ckeck. Cash paid out is the same. Set up a retirement plan that starts at 20 goes to 40 years. At the end of a 40 year retire pay does not have to equal tw Ho 20 year checks. Once you retire you are retired from that job period and like most people that retire from 1 job they move on to another job. But if you want your old job back and it is availible, you must give up retirement pay til you fully retire from that position. Than you can get your retirement for total no. of years served. This is not Rocket Scientist work, Hey NJ I'm for hire.
This problem is rampant all over the state, right down to the local town level. Fixing this would involve replacing half of state workers. Its just the tip of the iceberg.
jpeg..... how about flipping it over, and asking how can a "retired' person have a job. The benefits he should lose is collecting retirement pension payments, might as well mention he should have been contributing during a time he was collecting.
First, its unethical. Second, its gaming the system because of inside knowledge. Third, if it wasn't government, but a private company instead, nothing could be done or said. Finally, Christie is a loud mouth blow-hard, who just bullies or scares people into supporting his ideas. Then he hops a helicopter to his kids little league game.
The sad part is that you error on the side of the corrupt, or maybe better defined as 'do as i say, not as i do' hypocrisy that flows heavily through the republican party. All of you have painted yourselves into a corner, all of you bitch and moan, and everyone knows the truth we call reality.
Mitt is a perfect representation of the Republican party as long as obama is around (yes, i noticed how when you 'stick to the subject' you take a shot at obama - not relevant). Maybe a long look in the mirror might help? or how about assuming that the Republican party is full of unethical, incompetent and bigoted a-holes. I know I have gone by that conclusion since bush got a second term.
So, if you want to live like a Republican, vote for a democrat.
The key words here are "legal loopholes". They are legal but obviously not very ethical. Governor Christie's job now is not to "do some splainin'" as a previous poster stated, but to get busy and close the loopholes, legally.
1 Opinion....the person has earn and is receiving the pension. You cannot take that away because the person is hired again. Millions of military people draw pensions and at the same time work their government jobs. Are you suggesting the government take back the pension they earned until they quit their current government jobs?
Arrrrrgh...thank you!!!
And the question remains...can it be done? Constitutionally, doubtful.
The issue isn't them working...the issue is them double-dipping. If they are working, then why do they need to dip into the retirement fund? They also, in their new jobs, game the system so they don't have to pay into the system after they "retire".
I don't think anyone has in issue with these folks coming back to work...but they should freeze their "retirement pay" until they are actually no longer working.
And news flash...this isn't just in Jersey. Other states have this same issue (and I believe msnbc reported that too). And yes, Christie is responsible for his subordinates...when you assume power, you also assume responsibility.
It's too bad the democrat-led NJ legislature didn't pass bills banning double-dipping. Not Christie's fault at all. Plus this lt-gov broad was elected not picked by Christie. Christie will be Romney's running mate in Nov and then prez in 2020 after Romney's 2 terms. Christie will be a legend much like Reagan. Hopefully he will be able to reverse the huge damage that Comrade Obama and the rest of the commies did in 4 short years.
What a bunch of fat pigs! And yet they would take away from the pensions (of normal hard working people), education, schools, and future of our children...
Send these jokers back home to their Twinkie boxes, mansions and private schools and keep them away from making decisions that affect the rest of us.
Rushie,
I guess you missed the latest poll where Christie had his highest rating yet. And this was on CNN not Fox News. Christie will be eating his Twinkies in the NJ governor mansion for quite some time Slappy.
I'm against double-dipping for public workers and fat pension plans paid by tax payers for these same workers. Of course this might explain why my house assessment was lowered but my taxes increased. Too many layers of government!!!!!!!!!!!!
Red, if that's true, I guess the people of NJ will have to get burned a bit more before they begin to see the light...
Wm.Sanders.....agreed...they are not paying in, but they are not drawing a second pension either. And, you are right....Christie is responsible for his subordinates, and an investigation is underway.
I feel safer in the hands of the GOP every day. Right.
Sounds like jpeg is double dipping. Opinion 1 pretty clearly answered your question. Nobody said that you can't work for the state of New Jersey after retiring from another position. Give up your pension payments and continue paying into the system. When you retire from that position you will receive a larger pension because you've been paying in longer.
YES!!! Christie had his hand in the cookie jar! Of course it was an actual cookie jar. The double dipping was the mozzarella sticks and sauce at TGI Fridays..
Change the law so that retirement does not begin until 67, then after retirement if they want to work go for it , but not with the government, only the private sector. Many options here to improve the system. The point I am making is Governor Christie looks like he is gaming the system for his Republican friends , yes he does have a great deal of splanning to do. Finally I would note that "the spirit of the law" has been mentioned in the news a great deal these days. This situation seems to be another example of people doing things that, on the face, just are not right.
Double-dipping is a problem unless you believe is doesn't matter if our politicians don't have any scruples or character.. "sure, why they're just getting while the getting is good..the good ole american way!". This way of thinking may work for businessmen in a free market system BUT NOT FOR PUBLIC SERVANTS LIKE OUR POLITICIANS who are getting this money from TAXPAYERS!!!!!
And now Christie will protect these crooks (and that's ASSuming he's not one of them)! What a guy...
No wonder the GOP wants Christie to run for President or other high office. They want to pad their inside trading loss with double and triple dipping into public funds. They recognize that they would have another Dubya who would ignore public outcries and of course attempts by the other side of the isle to keep them in check just like Dubya did. Christie would pass laws and appoint people while Congress was out of session like Dubya did with the Patriot Act II and other nonsense. Yep, make him Romney's running mate and all of the GOP can get richer from public welfare while the middle class lose their jobs, homes and any chance of making a good salary in their lifetime.
It's the same problem California has, privileged public servants union leaches!!!! The New Jersey (bully) educators union. 13% are milking the 87% The only other thing the unions in N.J. need is a chair and a breast! The chair is for the taxpayer to stand on (some of those union fools are tall)
Because only a dummy would fail to recognize Republicans have to pay off their cronies just like the Democrats do. Voting party line is for people who don't like to think. So for all you Kool Aid drinkers blathering about how it'll be better just because we elect Republicans over Democrats, pardon me while I laugh in your face.
Probably just in certain areas of SoCal (dare we say right leaning) like that city planner down there who secretly made himself a multi-millionaire with a FAT pension just before he retired... What a guy...
Yep! Corrupt Investigators investigating Corrupt Politicians. AGAIN! Seems like the same story is being played out across this Nation. Now who is investigating the Investigators? Answer. No one.
Glad that I am in South Carolina where no one is ever investigated (SIC). Sure our Governor is lily-white and free of any guilt, according to the State Ethics Board. Hee Hee. As I said, Corrupt Investigators investigating Corrupt Politicians. Maybe they will paint a halo over those being investigated which will be hallowed by the Evangelical Right which will get them re-elected.
I hear its half off at Krispy Kreme this week. I'm sure Christie will feel better.
Jpeg, you have got to be kidding. The man went to war on pensions, and cut them for regular people. meanwhile he does nothing about a situation that is benefiting people he knows personally. That STINKS.
What is worse, the amount of money these people are getting in pensions every year could pay decent wages for another 2 people instead.
You don't need that, you just need a law that says you can't receive a pension and hold a job with the state at the same time.
Same BS goes on at the government level. It's really simple...if you draw a State or Federal pension, you should not be allowed to be rehired by the State or Federal government. End of story. And you wonder why there are no jobs out there for some people.
"Democratic State Sen. Fred Madden is a "triple-dipper" who collects more than $241,000 a year from public coffers — $49,000 as a legislator, $106,983 as a police academy dean and an $85,272 pension as a State Police retiree..."I don't have a problem with it at all," said Madden."
Of course not - You're the one getting paid 3 times for the same work.
Obviously, Christie has more work to do to root out corruption in New Jersey, where union corruption was a scandal that lasted for generations under Democratic politicians.
I wonder when MSNBC will look into Illinois 80 BILLION penision deficit, but probably not thats Obamas adopted hometown!
jpeg...do you really think this is okay? Imagine working for company A. You retire and are now eligible to collect benefits. Another position opens up the next day that is fulltime with benefits. Would that company allow you to continue to collect on the first pension while accruing for a second? Of course not. The closest you would come is to work as a contractor without paid time off and no benefits. That is reality. The pensions these people collect are generous and include the ability to have healthcare, a different package than a fulltime employee, but the availiability exists. All of this is funded by taxpayer dollars. Public employees receive generous pensions due to what occurred in the past when they were underpaid. That is no longer the case. Their salaries are now competitive, although they deny it. No need to double dip, do what the rest of us do and fortify the pension with a savings plan.
I have no problem with these people not being able to collect two pensions or work for the public once collecting a pension. Have you heard about the unemployment rate? Do you not think this would enable some people to return to work, even if they had to acquire a new skill set?
Living in New Jersey, I can tell you that the brunt of the blame does not fall on Christie. He does need to investigate his own employees, but keep in mind the legality of double dipping has to end by action of our state legislature. They for the most part benefit from this perk. Make no mistake about it.
As citizens, we need get the information and make it as public as possible and embarass the egocentric 'workers'. That seems to be the only tool we have to fight this atrocity.
Anyone have numbers on how this affects the average taxpayer? That would interesting to hear.
geo--can you stretch it any further? Now you are trying to blame Obama for NJ's pension problems? The article is about New Jersey; and Obama hasn't been living in Illinois since he was elected PRESIDENT OF THE USA. I know that irks you more than anything!
It would appear that this republican is like many of those in control orf the republican party today...cuts for those that need it and more for those who are ripping off the tax payers. Yet....people want to vote for these thieves in the republican party. Granted..most all of congress is on the take in one form or the other from lobbyist...buit Christie wants to be VP..or would like to be..how would it be for a VP to be boosting funding for the wealthy friends while cutting everywhere else..oh yea..that is what the republican tea party is pushing for for us all. So is Romney...
"Smaller Government" EXCEPT for ME and the money that is MINE MINE MINE.........oh yeah, can I retire twice if I come back into a new job the day after I retire.........more Pension funds that are MINE MINE MINE...............
I have to wonder just why the voters of NJ put up with this kind of tax fund abuse ? Evidently, they enjoy being ripped off by politicans making claims of being such honest people.
The problem here was that the person "retiring" (Donovan) came back working in the same capacity as his previous position, while receiving his pension (for what really is the same job) while drawing a paycheck for doing the same job. Since that is not allowed, the Sheriff, Guadagno, made false statements and fudged the new job title to escape the problem. The case was then referred to a unit within the State Attorney General's office, but Guadagno had previously been Deputy Director of that office. This is the classic, "the fox guarding the hen-house" scenario and jpeg thinks that we are stupid enough that he can argue this as legally justified.
jpeg, this is exactly the problem people have with this (and politics in general)....that people like YOU do not see anything wrong with this simply because you think they were clever enough not to break the law. First, they may very well have broken the law. Second, trying to even investigate whether the law was broken has politics involved by having the direct players involved in the units doing the investigation. Third, we have Gov. Christie hiring one of the individuals directly involved in the lie while Gov. Christie is pontificating about needing to cut pension costs, chastising workers who complain about it, taking credit for being so "principled", while his staff is helping others sponge off the same system. It's these disgusting, slimy, low-life politicians (and their low-life drones actually defending them) that are the problem, and I don't care which party they come from.
Why don't we just end all government pension plans and make these thieves retire on SS like the rest of us. This man collecting 220k a year in pension benefits doesn't deserve the 220k in the first place. The system is set up so that pigs like Christy can continue living off the backs of the rest of us for life.
End all government pension plans and we will start cutting down on the country's deficit by large numbers.
The only explaining the governor will do on any issue is to start yelling louder than anyone else in the room/venue and end with telling you to shut up...it's none of your business.
Let's see, the last four New Jersey Governors have been Democrats.
The New Jersey General Assembly has been controlled by the Democrats for 40 years.
The New Jersey State Senate has been controlled by the Democrats for 50 years.
Yet, Christie is supposed to have fixed the double-dipping that's been going on in the state for DECADES in the short time that he's been in office - even if those things are LEGAL and would require Legislative action to address.
And, of course, he should have magically fixed these LAWS that cost the state (maybe) a few million dollars per year and ignored the things that cost the state BILLIONS OF DOLLARS PER YEAR.
Yeah, that makes sense - if you're a Left-wing LOON.
Jersey ron,
Please introduce me to the teachers making $165K. Twenty years plus a Phd gets you $91K. Starting salary is $38k the average is $58k and the median is $48k. No retirement until age 65 regardless of years of service I believe the only one in the nation making 41 years the average before retirement. Early retirement penalty is 6% per year. New Jersey has the 4th highest cost of living in the nation the highest or second highest real estate taxes it is ranked 36th best state for teachers ranking it with the West Virginias and Mississippis of the nation.
After Christie the only state workers having their salary increased were his staff increasing staffing as well as an average pay increase of $7k. There are 50% more staffers making 100k than under Corzine and not a single one has had to pay more for benefits or longer for retirement. Christie is a pocket Mussolini who rules by caveat never engages in compromise and is the Andrew Jackson of Jersey patronage. If you want a statte contract you had better be on a donor list somewhere. Since he has become governor employment everywhere in the region has stabilized with increases in manufacturing and private sector jobs while both are fleeing NJ and unemployment looks more like a rust belt state than a mid-eastern one. He is a bully and a fraud and will never be seen in a constructive debate he is the Rush Limbaugh of American politics.
jkh
Meanwhile he gave Panasonic that much tom move five miles creating ZERO new jobs. And that isn't the only one.
Except Christy's Whitman who started raiding the pension systems and destroyed systems that were at 120 percent of requirements.
Total all the political trips he's taken in the last year and those savings are a illusion. He's best at self promotion and little else. Most of his "accomplishments" were offered by or negotiated with the workers.
I see nothing unusually amiss here. Most states, counties, and municipalities do this all the time. If you have 'em retire at those large salaries, what difference does it make whom you pay to replace them with? Pay the new hires the same as you were paying those who retired, and it's all the same. Course doing it the way Christie is, sure solidifies loyalty among the ranks. The difference here, is Christies claims in the beginning. A republican talking bullsh^t to republicans who only understand bullsh^t. Best that will ever yield, if lucky enough, will be a clump of crab grass.
fa, I like the way you just made up those numbers. They both cost BILLIONS and both should have been fixed, not just the one magically fixed that your friends won't miss.
The fact is that Gov. Christie made a mission out of reforming the pension system for everyone else EXCEPT his friends. But that does make sense - if you're a Right-wing drone.
Christie has done some good work in NJ
However, he cannot continue to declare war on corrupt or unethical practices in NJ and sleep with the enemy at the same time.
He must bring in legislation that absolutely bans double dipping - This should be a bi-partisan effort - We are watching !!!! Any pols who oppose legislation to end double dipping do so at their own peril. We, the people of NJ will not stand for this bull@!$%# anymore.
Christie also must immediately fire Kim Gudwhatver to avoid being tainted by her.
And last but not the least, Democrat Frank Madden should be ashamed of himself for "not having any problem with it" Of course you don't you greedy SOB !!!!
Foolishness Abounds -
Can you please explain to me why it should take a long time and lots of effort to ban double dipping ? Just come out with a legislation that says you either get salary or pension. If you get pension and return to a job with the state government in any capacity that pays you a salary, you stop getting that pension. It should also ban re-hiring for 5 years following your retirement.
Why should this take 5-10-15 years to fix ?
Come on people...this is New Jersey!!! furcryinoutloud!
Double dipping should be outlawed, plain and simple. There are plenty of people who would love those government jobs: good pay, lots of benefits, and ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY. That's the American way...
Gov Christie is simply doing what every elected politician tries to do; make his friends rich and make the rich his friends. He brags about introducing reforms in the pension system by reducing benefits and increasing contributions from the working members, but he carefully avoids introducing any change to stop the corruption of his friends and sycophants. While the ordinary people pay more and get less, his cronies stuff their pockets with graft. He calls that reform. Like most politicians he is a big bag of BS, just a little bigger than most
You mean "christian values" Chris Cristie is letting this happen on his watch? Shocking I tell you!
But after I watched "Jabba the Cristie" waddle off the tax payer's helicopter to attend his son's baseball game a while back, I'm not that shocked really.
@Rushisa--you should note that the people you are calling names are the police officers, fire fighters and teachers. THOSE are the people who have been double dipping.
As for this story: It's clearly biased. Why? Because it says "As a county sheriff in 2008, Guadagno made false statements". As if that has been proven. It hasn't. It should have said "allegedly made false statements". Remember, she is innocent until proven guilty. NOTHING has been proven.
As for Christie: I'm not sure that he really has any explaining to do, except if Guadagno is found guilty, why he didn't vet her better.
Do away with these ridiculous pensions altogether. Then no one will be double dipping and our tax dollars can be used for more beneficial things.
The governors here in NJ continually get worse and worse and with Christie we have hit rock bottom. We have not even set the bar with this guy we've just thrown the bar on the ground. I still get double digit increases on my taxes every year - another broken promise that he said he would fix or most probably another one of his long list of lies. And the list goes on and on. Public employees salaries are public information and there are many NJ public employees that are on the payroll in 5, 6, 8 or even up to 10 public positions! All making well over six figures with all those different jobs. How can anybody realistically work more than two jobs? And all Christies nepotism with all his Port Authority buddies that he created positions for and plugged them in. Bottom line is NJ is a seriously corrupt state and Christie is perfect in the role as the corrupt big boss.
I have heard of double dipping as someone who retires from the military, then gets a job as a mail carrier. He is using a federal govt. pension after legally retiring, and then sortiing mail. But I have never heard of someone retiring, then going back and doing the same job, while still working. that's crazy. I would say they need an addendum to this law, stating that you cannot receive retirement benefits from that job while working in the same state or federal jobs. I can see them retiring and then going to work as a greeter at Walmart, or work in someone's retail store. But I cannot see them retiring and then doing the same job for the same money WITH retirement.
So fa - why don't we blame Obama for not being able to accomplish anything while in office, too? OH WAIT the RETHUGS have DONE that for the last 3 years. He couldn't do much of anything with the obstructionists in CONGRESS... Same-same...only DIFFERENT?
In the state of Washington, where we have a balanced budget every year (It's the law) we also have rules that prevent excessive double dipping. Yes, you can come back parttime, or work a few months out of the year. But no, you can't get another state job and keep collecting your retirement.
All Christy had to do was ask us. We could've told him how to correct his states financial picture and get this double dipping under control. Funny, he never asked us.
I wonder just how much more the American people are willing to take from these politicial thugs who are constantly ripping us off and paying their fellow mob members fantastic salaries! I think I will buy me a gun so I can be ready for the inevitable revolution in this country. I don't know about everyone else, but I am fed up with politics as usual.
Canary -- I'll buy that line when the Dems advance a budget of their own instead of boo-hooing what the Reps put out. 'Til then, sit down and be quiet.
How nice, the GOP looking out for the underprivileged 1%.
jpeg #2.20 Texas stopped teachers from retiring and then being rehired. So, it would seem that it can be done. Don't know if the sames rule applies to our State representatives and employees, or not. I'm going to guess - not!
He refused to get into the presidential fray for a reason. Just wait this is not it.
If any new prisons need to be built then they should be built for politicians who are killing this country!! I dont care what party they belong too..they can join their side behind bars. This theft that people pay for is another example of this generation of american people sleeping wehile their future is wrecked for generations. Im fuming mad!! Why is it that every generation before this generation that has the best tools ever to find information are so damn ignorant and sit back and get gouged into poverty? I really hope to see BIG difference come november..the bottom line is we need more people to vote out corruption than voting for corruption..plain and simple, or our future will be corrupt for as long as you can get away from it and if your in office then you got a get out of jail free card because your buddy runs the jail system..im down right sick of it and I aint gonna take it anymore!!!
What a bunch of fat pigs! And yet they would take away from the education, schools, and future of our children...
Send these jokers back home to their Twinkie boxes, mansions and private schools and keep them away from making decisions that affect the rest of us.
and the dems in california are doing soooooo much better
Double dipping isn't a party issue...both parties do it.
Do not look to see if this will be on Fox news or The Factor, Oreilly will not touch this one. It would not surprise me if he were doing the same thing as he was once a teacher and is probally drawing a pension from them. He is in dire straits and needs the money, NOT.
I agree double-dipping is non-partisan but I was referring to the BIG picture. Christie is saving money while Brown is over-spending. And where does Brown want to make cuts? Thats right- schools.
ethics, integrity, tolerance and accountability have been ignored by the voters, both locally and federally. Both sides do it, however, republicans had their 'at-bat', we tried their solutions. To now think the same bulls#$! is going to turn things around is pretty low-bar.
The idea that mitt can take office and 'POOF' we all have jobs, and no more deficit is absolutely insane, you might as well believe in a guy up in the sky who tracks every human being on his naughty and nice list. Most of us grew past that in grade school.
Pay attention, if you don't know a candidate, don't vote for anyone, skip it, go on to the ones you're familiar with.
I am in AZ, we've been electing the most incompetent and corrupt moron in history for almost 2 decades based on 'pink underwear'. As anyone if they know about accusations of corruption, or the $110 million in court settlements-to-date, and you get a look similar to G.W. reading to school kids, dumbfounded. I won't even mention the litany of unnecessary legislation that is destined for the trash can once a court gets a hold of them.
We have the ability to change it.
STOP VOTING FOR IDIOTS, AND IF ONE SNEAKS PAST, DON'T VOTE TO RE-ELECT THEM.
Here's the biggest problem Christie faces yet. He's completely overhauled what he calls "waste in government (a typical Republican line that interprets...cut programs people need and you have another round of tax cuts for the 12,000 richest New Jerseyans) and isn't that exactly what he did? He handed a 10% income tax cut he knows will average out to about $200 on the average NJ salary while it will hand millions more to the 12,000 he is kissing up to.
The picture is: Republicans cut, cut, cut, cut...to the bone to create a cut, cut, cut, cut in the taxes their wealthy cronies pay. So in other words, not only does the Middle Class get less for the taxes they pay but then, they have to fill in the gaps left by taxes the rich aren't paying.
Then, they say, it's wealth envy. When the Middle Class are the ones providing that wealth as consumers, taxpayers and employees?
Employers in NJ are the cheapest asses in the country. Their salaries of their employees are crappola compared to that of Noo Yawk. Christie knows this and instead of dealing with the highest property taxes in the country, he hands out another tax cut of 10% to the 2004, 2008 and 2009 tax cuts his fellow Republicans demanded.
Christie won't make a second term. He knows this. That's why he's schmoozing subtlely to become VP if he can kiss up to RoMONEY whom he hopes will win. Vote for a Republican and you vote for more austerity for the Middle Class, more tax cuts for the rich and more cuts to programs that will only make life in NJ even harder to endure.
Why not let the person collect on the largest of the more than one pension qualified for? No double dipping will result in jobs going unfilled in NJ? Perhaps the retirement age should be at least 35 years of service or reaching age 62. Christie never thought of that?
fadman, under Nappy the homeland security man, AZ went 8 billion into debt in 6 years. The state now has a 1 billion surplus after she has been gone for 3 years. I fail to see where staying within budget and not raising taxes makes a government incompetent.
MUGTECH...the unions would have screamed bloody murder if they had tried to increase the retirement age.
I don't see why double-dipping as a concept is a problem. You've got to pay the pension, you've got to pay the replacement worker, what does it matter if it's the same person? You still pay the same, but this way you save on training costs.
We do this all the time in the military, mostly in the training department. You take retired personnel and get them to train new troops as civilian contractors. They already know the ropes and have the experience to provide the best instruction right away. Beats hiring nonmilitary instructors and having to teach them the job first. Either way, you're still spending the same amount of money.
Now gaming the pension by working at an inflated salary for the last 3 yrs before retirement is a problem, but that's not double-dipping.
Double-dipping is a problem unless you believe is doesn't matter if our politicians don't have any scruples or character.. "sure, why they're just getting while the getting is good..the good ole american way!". This way of thinking may work for businessmen in a free market system BUT NOT FOR PUBLIC SERVANTS LIKE OUR POLITICIANS who are getting this money from TAXPAYERS!!!!!
This is just the end result of Public Service Employee Unions, and the Teachers Unions promising pie in the sky benefits which were rubber stamped by the Democrats who have controled this state forever. And look at what you have, the highest property tax in the country, the most pot holes in the Northeast, and a state that is flat broke. Great job, now go on and raise taxes on all those "rich" people. Pathetic.
This is the end result of FAT TEA PARTY supporting crooks out for themselves (and like-minded white brethren) who will bankrupt this country by bankrupting the future of us all but starting with bankrupting the future of our children, women, and most especially the poor and the minorities!!!!
@GermanGem,
Gov. Brown will cut from schools ONLY if he's not allowed tax the wealthy in Ca. It's a very simple choice. Of course, we know where you stand (or where you think you stand after twisting the facts!)
But, ewent, with those better salaries in New York come rules that evidently aren't applied in NJ - such as, if you work for the state, county, or local government and take retirement, you CANNOT return to a job in any of their agencies for at least one full year. There's no retire on Monday, rehire on Tuesday deal. And that crosses all the agencies - if you work for the state and take retirement, you cannot be hired by a county or local government agency for that year. If a position is left unfilled for an entire year, the agency most likely will 'lose' the item to another office who can and will fill it prior to that year being up.
AG99
No, I don't believe the math works like that: if you don't pay the pension while the worker is still working, then you don't pay the same amount at all and it doesn't matter if they work for the same company or not.
Really don't see how you can use the military as an example of how this works well, considering the well-deserved critique of wasteful spending in the military. Yes, many ex-military men continue to work for the military after "retirement" or they work for military contracters (like my dad did).
Double-dipping may be legal for the military and by loophole/shenanigans elsewhere...but it's not ethical to ask tax payers to pay both pension and salary for so-called retired personnel. What's more reasonable and ethical is to offer only a portion of a government pension until full retirement age for those who continue to work. But if you don't work any longer, you get the whole pension.
pragmatist, you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I don't agree with it. Whether the retiree works or not is irrelevant. The military may not be a good example as retirements are forced and military retiree pay is actually retainer pay for several years afterwards, but I still stand by my math. In fact, I maintain it's actually cheaper for the taxpayer to rehire retirees than pay them a pension and hire someone else. You don't have to train the retiree.
Disgusting.
Self government will not work without self discipline.
Crispy Cream for VP, "When Pigs Fly", That would be "Obesity" I think its about time that the American people kick the GOP and their fleabaggers out of "OUR" Country. They are no longer welcome when they deliberately sabotage our Nation !
Whadda ya want ? It's Joisey ! One of their former law enforcement big-wigs ripped me off for over $500.00 worth custom-made product ordered from my website..................
Schleps, all of 'em !
And i guess no one else has ever ripped you off? to disparage an entire state cause some @!$%# screwed ya is just wrong.. I am from NJ and have never screwed anyone over..
Oh yeah, that $500 was divided amongst the entire population in NJ. Of course the entire state is to blame!
Truthfully, 11 years and over 1000 customers, and this one, well-connected "gentleman" has the dubious honor of being the only one that has ripped me off. What gets me about this schlep is the fact that he made his living in Law Enforcement, prosecution, parole boards, etc. and yet is enough of a hypocrite to rip off a small business owner and do it with a wry smirk on his face.........................
My remark was not aimed at the Jersey population in general so much as the schmucks running the state starting with your greasy governor - he has the "pinache" (or lack thereof) to rub elbows with our governor (WI). Talk about "you lie with dogs, your gonna get fleas"
My apologies for being unclear.
Woodworker, you sound like a union worker who has sudenly gotten kicked off the gravy train. What did you do for $500?, whittle a toothpick?
This doesn't happen just here in NJ it happens all over the country. Why do you think property taxes in NJ are so high? It isn't uncommon to pay $10,000.00 a year for a small house on a small lot so people can keep the public employees "living large" off the backs of senior citizen!
All the public officials along with the public employees,unions etc are all guilty as sin. Christie and all of the rest of them can't get their faces out of the money trough because it has been too good to so many for all of those years.
Everybody is entitled to their pension but only ONE PENSION!!! This is outrageous behavior and this is the type of thing the Dems. are guilty of also.
Don't pay your taxes and see where yur house and anything else you own will end up.
timothy; You sound so anti-union, you must have forgotten how unions helped raise the U.S's standard of living. History? Remember? "Gravy train"; that sounds better applied to Christie's "buddies??
The gravy train is the 1%
This would seem to be an easy thing to fix at the local, state and national levels. And it is the right thing to do. This is wrong even if there is no law against it.
It's seems like a simple problem, but it's a fine line. You qualify for retirement and do. Do you pass laws to prevent a retired person from returning to the workforce?
Most double-dippers don't retire and get rehired for the same job...most work in entirely different fields.
Yes, if you are serious about public employee reform. You definitely wouldn't knowingly employ multiple people who were double dipping ....though I hear Christie likes to double dip
Bull. We aren't talking about getting another job, we are talking about get another PUBLIC sector job
So are you suggesting someone who is retired not be allowed to ever work in the public sector again?
Do you have any idea of how many millions of people you are talking about?
Do you know how many young people who don't have a dime are out of work that could use a job while these greedy thieves are living high off the tax dollars of the ones who are working .
This double dipping garbage has got to go.
actually jpeg, you could easily put a plan in place that says if someone is working more than 20 hours per week, that they cannot collect their pension. Most retirees only work a part time gig. Not a job where they draw 130k as a salary in addition to their pension.
How do you legally do that? The person has earned the pension. You cannot take it back because the person wants to work again.
Ironic that people are outraged at "welfare" moms who maybe get 15k a year in benefits "just because they popped out babies". Where's the outrage at people that get $86,000/yr just because they sat at a desk for 25 years? Lol, and then they quit for a day, go back to the same exact desk and get to double their salary? Nice!! At least with welfare moms the babies grow up and benefits stop at 18, with public sector medical benefits, these guys might live another 30+ years on the dole. Have fun with that, New Jersey. No wonder you are always in the top 5 for taxes paid.
Chris Christie for Prez 2016 - "A pension and a tanning bed for all Americans"
jpeg, it's simple. A pension is for RETIREMENT purposes... if you are not retired you shouldn't collect. They earned the pension for when they retire, not so they can return to their same job and get a huge salary increase.
FlaDemnotliberal - the outrage isn't there because it's a Republican in office. If there was a Democratic governor there would be about a million posts on the topic, all of which would call for that governor's job.
So, if I go to work for the government and I put in 30 years, then leave to do something else, I shouldn't be able to collect my retirement because I'm still working?
Effectively what you're saying is, people like me that will probably work until I die because I like to work, should never be able to collect retirement money. That's BS.
I think were talking about working at the same government job you supposedly retired from not part time at Wal-Mart or McDonalds.
And sometimes you should move over and give some young person a chance ,you need to keep busy, volunteer.
skiing111, if the plan allows a person to collect a pension after 20 years, how do you legally prevent that person from working again?
Jimi...no, we are talking about millions of government workers who retire and pursue other government jobs.
no Ron that is not what they are saying. What they are saying if you retire from a State job, you should not be able to go back to the same state and work the same or another state job. You can work all you want in the private sector. Why should you be able to work for 30 years at a job, retire and start drawing retirement, and then the next day go back to the same job and start drawing a wage plus retirement. You retired from that job...hence the name RETIRE.
verno, and exactly how do you disqualify someone from a job based on the fact they draw a pension? A multi-million dollar lawsuit in the making.
jpeg.... I will say it one more time since obviously you didn't read it previously. The plan should stipulate that you could work a part time job where you work 20 hours or less or go work a full-time gig at some other employer. It's VERY easy to do and they do that sort of thing in regards to healthcare coverage. They should not be able to work their same jobs while simultaneously collect their RETIREMENT income.
Ron, you sound like you live in Jersey, work a state job and looked forward to doing this someday.
skiing, you cannot legally do that. The state would be hit with huge discrimination lawsuits.
Ron, how about the pension is turned off if you're working at the same employer? If you work as a police office for 25 years, and I believe deeply earn whatever pension they get, and then you go open a book store, or become a walmart greeter, start your singing career WHATEVER then fine keep the pension. But if you "retire" for a day, come back after your vacation day and start either the same job, a different title, a different position even but still in the Police Department--then you're no longer "retired" from the Police and thus your pension should be put on hold in the same way those that haven't gamed the system aren't earning their pension.
--Law Enforcement being an hypothetical, not the intended target--
No, I work in private industry and I have all of my life except 1 year at the state and 4 in the military.
My point is, why penalize someone that wants to keep working by not allowing them to have access to the retirement money they've earned? As a private employee that will probably never stop working until I die (because I like to work), I will definitely want to use my retirement funds once I reach retirement age.
1 Opinion.....I agree 100% but the vast majority don't return to the same job. In AZ, I can retire from my job as an IT programmer and draw my pension. The next day, I can return to the same job as a consultant. I don't pay into the pension fund as a consultant, but am collecting a pension and salary for the same job. How do you stop that or can you even?
Ron,
I believe the issue here is that the double dipping is occurring with people in better paid positions who are working directly under the Lt. Governor. When someone with a solid pension "retires" to gain the pension cheques and then turns around and gets another good paying job from same agency. It suggests corruption.
Public employees especially those that work more closely with elected officials have to be held to higher standard.
Now please understand I don't think your question is unreasonable. If say the person in question had retired from public service and then picked up a private sector job then I wouldn't see any problem with this. After all he did earn his pension its his money. Like you I have a hard time seeing myself ever fully retiring. I came from great depression parents so work is in my blood. However when someone works for the State where tax dollars fill the coffers then one must avoid the appearance of "gaming" the system.
Seems to me the problem is not so much with retiring and going back to work, but that when these people go back to work they no longer have to contribute to the retirement fund, therefore when they retire the second time they haven't contributed anything. The simple solution would be to make all employees contribute to the retirement fund with no exemptions.
Double dipping is nothing new. Many people retire after twenty years of military service and then get a civil service job and retire again when they have either the years in or reach retirement age. The difference there is that they pay into the retirement fund on their second job.
The problem is that 20 years is not a very long time to work anymore. Heck, I worked full-time for 15 years before I even had my first kid--and I definitely wasn't nearing "retirement" age! These numbers were made up at a time when 52 was "old" and people often only had a few years left to live.
My grandparents retired in their 50s and were dead at 60. In fact, my grandfather retired from a public utility at 58 and only received two years of his pension before he was dead. He had elected to receive the full amount, so his widow was not eligible for anything after his death. Of course, she was dead 18 months later, anyway. The world has changed immensely since then.
Now, we've got these folks "retiring" at 42 and working for another 20 years while double-dipping, and then living for an additional 20 or even 30 years. That can add up to FORTY or more years of collecting a pension after only 20 years of work! It's not a sustainable set up, and we've got to rework the system before it bankrupts every state.
I retired from the military some years ago and have regularly received my pension.
If I were to re-enlist, which is allowed in some cases, my pension would be stopped until I retired a second time. In the meantime I would have my active duty pay, but not both at the same time.
jpeg, wow it's amazing that you just can't seem to get this concept through your head. The company you work can simply add a requirement to its pension plan. You cannot enroll in it unless you agree to certain terms, such as what skiing111 or 1Opinion have suggested. Companies CAN do this. In my company, it's very common for certain high value employees to sign "non-compete" agreements that restrict or prevent their employment at certain other companies. Naturally, they receive nice compensation and benefits in exchange for signing such agreements. The government should work the same way.
jpeg, you seem to be missing the point made in the article, she changed the job title, otherwise he wouldn't be eligible to receive a pension while collecting a salary under their retirement rules.
Mario69
The problem is that many military retirees are rehired as civilians or they obtain similar positions in private companies who are government contracters.
We should stop ALL workers from double-dipping...if you continue to work full-time after "retirement" from a government OR private job then you only get a portion of your pension until you reach retirement age. If you do not work, or work only part-time, then you receive the full pension. This is an economic imperative going forward, given the demographic realities of our country.
what I wonder is how all these people who retire so easily get the job back or get another job in same state government. Where are all the other applicants for the open job that is open because of the retirement of the double dipper. are they simply ignored and passed over or do the ones who retire have a 1st dibs the for job?
jpeg, YOU are part of the Problem...finding loop holes and scams...you are embarrassing yourself and "thinking Ethical People"...The far right wants to tell people the what they can and cannot do in their bedroom, what they are allowed to do with their Health . Elected Officials are the EMPLOYEES of Americans... It's OK to give CONGRESS, SENATE; our E L E C T E D Officals AMAZING benefits, ...double dip benefits salaries. How come SEN kirk from Il got care that most Americans do not have access to WHY????
REGARDLESS OF WHICH "PARTY" is double dipping IT IS W R O N G!
SNAP out of it !!!
My vote will see you at the Ballot Box! Ther TRUTH will come out..your daze will come to an end.
jpeg...you do not understand what is going on. I will clear it up for you. First, these people, the double dippers, are retiring then returning to another government job where they are not only paid fulltime, but accrue service towards another pension. In the end, we have people in Jersey collecting multiple pensions from public sector jobs. They are not contractors when they return, but fulltime employees receiving fulltime benefits from the same entity that is also paying their pension.
For your information, it would not prevent them from working again, but from receiving two pensions and a benefit package from the same entity.
Think about it. If I work for Microsoft and retire, do they rehire me while paying my pension so I can accrue another pension? No, they consider it a transfer and I continue to accrue on the first pension. Plus, in the private sector, pensions are capped at a lower rate than what is quoated in the article for public employees. If you need more for retirement, you save for it.
Back to being rehired from the company from which you retired. The only time I have seen that done is if an individual works on a consultant basis being paid for the hours worked, no benefits or paid time off. No pension, just a check for the hours worked. Many companies have eliminated that practice, but there are a few that permit it for a transitional period. No one allows an employee to retire, collect a pension and return to accrue towards another pension. Really? Are you truly serious or having a good time playing with everyone?
I think you are probably a troll having a good time getting all of the responses, you probably know better.
Wow, NBC runs a slanted, negative story about a Republican. Shocker!! (sarcasm) NBC used to be a reputable place for news, but now it is just a propoganda engine for ignorant liberals who can't think for themselves.
Jpeg - your statements are pretty assinine. What part of being given a different title that doesn't qualify for inputting into the retirement accounts, but then being given basically the same job as they held before do you not understand. The problem is that they are not PAYING INTO the retirement system, the job titles are being covered over and changed, however they are being sneaked back into their same positions - where now they no longer have to pay into the system. That is a lie. That is cheating. I guess you uphold that. So, not only will they be receiving two pensions when they retire (from the same job), but they have also not paid into the system. It's not too hard to comprehend, is it? If it were truly legal, why would they do all the paper shuffling of job titles to make is seem okay?
Mr. Pragmatist -
NO. After retirement I took a job in the civilian sector. I will give up NO PART of my pension to work as a security guard or customer service rep.
In he simplest of terms, NO!
I think the solution is that government employees that retire from a job not be allowed further employment with any local, state or federal employer without un-retiring.
Leave it those "union thugs" to undermine the pension system. Christie is a hypocrite. If you're retired you stay retired! Nice to see he reduced the benefits of the working guys and gals...Pig
Sorry, GD.
These are not union jobs.
Military jobs haven't been Union since 1865. Its even questionable then.
No wonder they have such a large budget shortfall. When are politicians going to start at the top to solve their budget problems? Cut every one of those high salaries to less than $45K/year with NO "double-dipping" allowed. Time for the NJ voters to start a constitutional amendment process to order such action. We know the legislature will never do it. And that goes for every state, because this "double-dipping" occurs in every government level in every state and territory.
pssst....it's the politicians and political patrons who are doing the double dipping. the run-of-the-mill union employees aren't on the inside to take advantage. this is being done by the politically connected who can retire, and then get "appointed" the next day to a 6-figure position.
and the pension reform that the governor signed....well when it was passed and signed into law, the governor and state legislators exempted themselves and the patronage jobs from the reform. they are not even part of the reform process. they won't have their benefits limited or face the same reductions as state union employees.
surprise!!!!
This has to be the first time Governor Christie isn't out there running his mouth!
He's probably trying to find a way to blame teachers, the police and firefighters.
Since the story is not about him doing something wrong, why would he be talking about it?
jpeg...How convenient...When Christie goes around slamming and criticizing others, his mouth is out there. Now that there's an issue a little too close to home, where's the mouth of NJ now? I thought Governor Big Mouth had an opinion on anything that he considers bad?
Here's Republican bad for you: Spending state tax dollars on programs people of the state need to maintain financial stability? Republican bad. Spending on an income tax cut we don't need and is already showing a potential property tax increase? Republican good.
On the national level...Spending on education, fire, safety, defense and security? Republican bad. Spending on a war in Iraq we had no business getting into? Republican good. Handing out 3 tax cuts in 2004, 2008 and 2009? Republican good. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid or any reforms on Big Business corruption? Absolutely Republican bad. Ignoring Wall Street fraud and fines for oil spills and handing $12 billion to Big Oil in taxpayer subsidies? Republican good.
You guys need to rethink the definition of "good" and "bad"....because, quite frankly, Republicans are pretty misguided.
no, that would be cailfornia gov. brown who wants to cut police and teachers, AND raise taxes
ewent...what don't you understand about there being an investigation underway?
christie is a phony !!! full of alot of HOT AIR and BS!
What do you expect? Christie isn't exactly a model of self-control.....
Christie is embroiled in scandal and theft. What a surprise.
lakerman...Christie hides that he is tied to the North Jersey GOP political boss. It's how he became a US Attorney under Bush. If you check out Christies earliest political ties, you see how many of them are top GOP chieftains. New Jersey is a strange state politically. The further north you go, the redder the state is. The further south you go, the bluer it is.
So is the last NJ gov: Corzine.
jpeg- OK so your a big Christy fan we get it, but when they don't put enough regulations and over sight, who's problem is it?
This isn't a new thing, this has been going on for years. They save money on the backs of the working folks and meanwhile there cronies are raiding the funds!
Remember the buck stop with the head guy right, I bet you blame everything that goes wrong on the President, now don't cha?
Never said I was a fan of his...I said the story was trying to place blame on him for something he didn't do.
99.9% of the double dippers are the regular folks...
People that earn 70k a year for doing nothing aren't regular folks.
Eat Rolos....do you have any idea of the average government workers salary?? I have news for you....70k is the average government Joe.
Yes, but "regular folks" don't get a full salary for life after they "retire" and then get to dip in again. There is nothing regular about that scam.
Eat Rolos.....millions of government workers do exactly that every day. What do you find so hard to understand about that?
If you think the average slary for a government worker in NJ is $70,00.00 I have some magic beans to sell you.....
Where did I state NJ? I'm talking about millions of government employees doing the same thing.
Prove it. "Regular" folks don't earn two salaries from the same employer.
There are millions of retired military members who currently work for other government agencies. Many millions collect both federal pensions and military retirement, along with social security.
Prove it. Also, why are his employees immune from his attacks?
jpeg now you're throwing the military into this? I would say Social Security is a separate issue considering it is not directly linked to any 1 job the recipient had. Additionally the branches of the military are separate government entities from your generic federal employee example.
Overall I feel like you aren't aware that laws and regulations can be written to take all of these nuances into account. That you feel you can frame it as an all or nothing argument and thus it cannot be rectified. Is that your true sense of the issue? Or is it just easier to defend such obvious thievery?
Certainly you can't be equating a citizen who completes their military career, moves into a position in the federal government and lives long enough to qualify for social security, with the examples in the article of people who "retire" for a day and go back to work in the same office, the same position even with a cosmetic change in title to hide their ploy AND sometimes dodge further contributing to the very system they're benefiting from in bad faith?
If your definition of a double dipper is someone who quits a job and goes back the next day to the same job...then that's fine, but that is not the typical double dipper and you know it.
jpeg - that is EXACTLY the double dipper referred to in the article. Catch up please.
Unfortunately this is COMMON practice in most local/state governments. Between the double dipping and using comp time to inflate their final year(s) many "employees" find ways to become fixtures earning as much or more on retirement annually as they did during their best years as employees. Cronyism at its best.
Same happens in the private sector also....but what do you do??
My previous point.....can you legally stop someone who has qualified to retire from retiring and working again?
jpeg, yes you can. In most states if your retire from that state you can no longer work for that State again if it is paying into the same retirement system you just retired from. Do some checking.
I am retired from the state of Calif. And I can work all I want, as long as it is no longer for that State or that State Retirement system. Simple.
verno, most people who return to the same job do not contribute to the pension plan for another retirement......in those cases, the double dipping is drawing a salary and a retirement at the same time.
It would be illegal for them to disqualify you because of previous state employment. You many not be allowed to participate in the pension plan again, but that's a different subject. Are you honestly trying to tell me no one in California who retired from a state job, can ever work for the state again??
Try again.
jpeg...What is it you don't get about double dipping on taxpayers dollars? There's no reason why 1 employee of the state of NJ should carry more than 1 healthcare plan because they hold 2 state jobs. Christie is so hot to reform civil service but then deliberately ignores the double dipping. By the way, the former Mayor of Newark ended up in jail for the profits he earned from his numerous "state jobs." Don't tell me that's not illegal.
If it is legal, then something really stinks about Civil Services laws the rest of us are paying salaries, healthcare and other benefits for state and federal employees. It's not sacrosanct to work in government.
Generally they get around the "rules" by officially entering retirement THEN coming back under CONTRACT. Some even write the REQUIREMENTS so that they are the only ones qualified to take that contract. They do everything short of requiring the contracted employee to have the right SSN to be hired. I believe it was chicago where some guy came back to work for ONE day to up his retirement to 250,000 a year vs 68,000 then turned around and contracted back to the same position for 150,000 a year while drawing 3 retirements... federal, private, state, on top of his 150,000 contract to of all things OVERSEE the pension plan.
ROFL!!! Republicans cant even manage to screw people over correctly anymore. The Party of No, has become the Party of the Pathetic.
Oh, I don't know, I think I have to take exception to this remark and stick up for the Republicans.
After all, you are making them sound incompetent when they're not.
So, here goes: "They can too manage very well at screwing people over!"
party of pathetic is an understatement. Liars, theives,,racists, anti - women, anti American that hide under the cloak of religion what God do these fakers serve???
Oh the high moral ground of the GOP...Kickbacks cronyism outright embezzlement and offshore bank accounts..
Would it surprise anyone that many of the anti tax, anti spend teabaggers are in fact double dippers? Think military retiree then defense department retiree then maybe even squeeze in a defense contractor pension too...they worry about teachers pensions as they pad their own..
Is it illegal to retire from a job, collect a pension that you earned as part of your compensation, and then work again at another job?
Nope
MikeVT, it should be illegal if you are retired from the State and go back to work for the State again. But you should be able to work anywhere else you want. But that is not what this story is about. It is about people retiring from the State and then going back to work for the State again with the same or different job. That is wrong.
Verno, it might be wrong, but I challenge you to show me the actual law that makes it illegal.
Mike..Yes. It is illegal. The NJ GOP was all after the former Mayor of Newark and others for this very thing. Enough with that Republicans "Do AS I say not AS I do." routine. One Democratic politician in NJ got his ass in a sling for holding a part-time job at a university where he spent less than an hour a week. NJ GOP jumped all over that one.
And, let's stop playing ahole games here. We know how good Republicans are at cronyism. Christie is tied to North Jersey's top GOP party boss. He sidles up to the right wing of the NJ Americans for Prosperity.
Why should any taxpayer pay more than 1 retirement package for some smart ass who thinks he can retire at age 35 from one job and then get his GOP cronies to find him another complete with a 2nd retirement plan all which the GOP in NJ bitches as blue streak about spending and cuts programs NJ people need to the bone? So the NJ GOP doesn't mind a little double dipping but they sure as hell do mind teachers earning a fair salary. Do they also mind NJ's cheap ass CEO 12,000 rich asses who get every tax break known to mankind?
As I understand it, NJ law says a person in the State Pension System can take another state job, BUT they have to stop receiving pension if the job pays over a certain amount. (A friend of mine is in that situation -- I'm not sure but I think the limit might be around $12,000.)
Obviously, these double- and triple-dippers are receiving way more than that. If any state employees want to continue to work after retirement, if the state wants to hold on to their experience and expertise, fine. But no double or triple or quadruple pensions, please. Just let them continue to pay into their original pension fund like everyone else and collect when they are truly retired -- like everyone else.
Pensions are a good thing. All people should be able to pay into a reliable pension fund and receive benefits after retirement. But we're talking now about abuse of the system. Not by teachers, not by police, not by the great majority of state workers -- but by the people at the top, the people who want to decrease benefits for the average, middle-class working person.
these are not the run-of-the-mill union public servants who took a civil service test and spent time on a waiting list for an opening to occur.
these double and triple dippers are politicians and political patrons who retire from one job and get appointed to others by other politicians and their political friends. regular union members aren't connected enough to receive 6-figure, or close, pension payments, nor will they be appointed to little work government jobs because they donated to political campaigns.
Corruption in New Jersey? I'm shocked!
Even more shocking would be political corruption in the United States!
Blagojovich/Corzine 2016!
Bernie Madoff to Head the Fed!
CPO Sharkey! Yahoo!
Loved your post!
Don't kid yourselves, this occurs at all levels of government. That's one reason taxes are so high at all levels of government. We've left the drunks watching over the liquor store so what else would you expect?
Wow!! Not st. Christie. He claims he can do no wrong. The Tpubs will never stop!!!
What did he do wrong?
He continues to employ and apparently defend someone that is engaged in a practice he speaks out against and has attempted to legislate against. Why are his employees immune from his attacks?
There was no attempt to ban the practice of double dipping.
Yes there was. And I notice you didn't bother to contest that he constantly speaks out on it.
So tell me, why are his employees immune from his attacks?
Care to point to the legislation that attempted to ban double dipping? Didn't think so.
Why are his employees immune from his attacks?
I ask...what has he done that's right? Why start at the bottom of the pay pole. As a leader you must set the example. Start with all that are in your cabinet and your friends in these positions. Show the people you're true to your words! This is the correct way to save the state billions. Talk is cheap if you can't do the walk!
I think its funny that Madden "doesn't have a problem with it". That speaks volumes! Second, I don't think the issue is that they are getting the retirement that they are entitled to, I think its they are getting the retirement plus another high paying position. If our senior citizens retire and collect Social Security (which they also earned and is FAR less than these pensions) try to supplement their incomes, the amount they can earn is capped. The question begs, if politicians think its okay for them to do this, why isn't okay for the rest? They need to follow the same rules!!
ham...it's not politicians, it's millions of government workers.
excuses are sad.....
This is why they created their own retirement plans and opted out of SS, so they could manipulate it to their benefit and stay out of the SS debate. They need to be on SS with the rest of us and get 401(k)s and enough of the defined pension plans.
And for all you screaming that it is 'illegal' to change the rules in the middle of the game, what about all those GOP folks wanting to do away with Medicare and SS and change it in the middle of the game? It's legal if the laws can be passed. Why isn't SS good enough for them anyway? Oh no...all those politicians and state workers have 'theirs' so don't want anything to change. Hello? Have we forgotten who PAYS for this? They are our employees!
It is morally indefensible for public sector employees to be paid the kind of money this article mentions when the country is in such an economic crises.
It could all be changed if they wanted to. Simply do it like Social Security. Average their salary over a period of time and give them a percentage of that after age 65, or 66 when they 'retire'. Feel free to go back to work and pay taxes on your earnings.
actually, jpeg, in new jersey, it's the politicians and their political patron friends who are the double dippers. regular union members are not connected enough to retire from a state job and be appointed to another.
this is a patronage debacle, not a public employment debacle, but the governor is not going to address it as such, since his friends and fellow politicians are the ones who are entirely to blame for this.
A"RISING STAR"? Maybe when compared to Mitch Daniels or Marco Rubio. Good gosh...is there an honest repug anywhere?
Thomas Blue, is there an honest democrat anywhere?
I'd like to think so but you may be right. The main difference between a prostitute and a politician is the price. Of course, I'd like to think that maybe there's an honest repugnican out there too, but it's just a little harder to believe in them for me. I guess if you were honest and stupid enough to want to play in the political cesspool, you'd have to be an independent.
Pathetic that christie acts like he;s the reformer, yeah right...him and falin palin are playing to the religion fanatics...free enterprise..except when it comes to your civil rights then "they" will tell you what to do in your bedroom, what to do with you birth control, who you can marry...who are they kidding/??? look at what "THEY SAY" and what "THEY DO"...shame. shame hipocreepes...
GOD does not pick colors, God does not Bully, God is not GREED
NOT FOOLIN ME!! OBAMA/BIDEN 2012
yeah,Red Shoes...I was taught that the Bible doesn't tell you everything, but it tells you everything you need to know. And I find it interesting and noteworthy that it never mentions what color Jesus is. ould it be that maybe it isn't important?
Bunch of @#$!$%$#@$% Pigs at a Feed Trough. OUR money Pig trough. Where the Hell in the private sector can a person do this. It's nothing more than Legalized Thievery in MY opinion. They should all be thrown in Prison. Will the ONE Honest, and I mean Honest Politician Left in this country please stand up? Someone? Anyone??? This is why The citizens of this country should Vote someone new into office at EVERY Election, instead of the same pigs every time.
Double dipping is done at both the state and federal level. The reasoning is, you still have to pay both the retirement pension and the salary. The problem is, you're not hiring anyone new. Sure, you get an experienced employee, but it makes a mockery of the retirement system. It's time to get some new blood in there--shake things up and out with the old. Eliminate double dipping!
We know Christie will be a double or triple dipper when the time comes for him to collect a government pension - I'm sure he'll take his pension for being US Attorney, and NJ Governor, and maybe one for some future federal appointment. Yet he beat up our state's teachers, most whom earn one pension for decades of service. This year anti bullying curiculum was implemented NJ's public schools. The joke is that it should be called the Governor Christie, "do as I say, not as I do, program."
I think that is the point some here are missing. Its not that Christie did anything illegal. Its that he hammered the teachers and police, saying he was removing corruption and needless spending, while his own house is full of the same.
Christie and romney the bullies......
Governor Christie has done NOTHING illegal by this story. However, it appears his second in command, Lt. Gov. Guadagno has.
Guadagno should step aside and have another assume her position. It also appears, at least according to the story posted here, that she has possibly committed fraud. If so, prosecute her AND the individual the fraud was meant to assist.
He didn't, but it looks bad on him since he hammered teachers and police cutting their budgets and removing needless spending and personnel. He didn't review his own house.
While Christie may not have done anything illegal- he's cetainly not cracking down on something unethical- selectively enforcing reforms isn't the route he should be taking.
But he's morbidly obese, and suppremely arrogant- so I don't see anything turning around there.
D-1129384... Thank you for your post! The fact is he little to nothing to reform the double dipping which is happening in pretty much every state. This is why people seek public office. It is not to do what is best for the people but to enjoy the perks, benefits that come with the job.
When they are done investigating hopefully closing loopholes to prevern the current fraud, please head to Florida as our state Government is just as bad if not worse.
I have all the faith Governor Christie will cleanup this next mess up, for all you
A$$holes that are just looking for an excuse to badmouth him because he was the
deliverer of the bad news....I will just bet when they look into this you will
be surprised to see who gets kicked to the curb...LOL!!! This attack was intended
for Christie it will backfire…. Because he WILL fix it and walk out looking
like a champ!
Its amazing how much he is saving NJ!!! lololololololol Since he was elected to clean up NJ and get that state working I guess he was only talking about his friends lolololol
The GOP FatCat Bagger is a rubber stamp for his Rich Buddies !