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Subscribe to RSSA trove of evidence in the Trayvon Martin shooting has now been made public, and according to one police report, the 17-year-old's death at the hands of George Zimmerman was "ultimately avoidable." NBC's Kerry Sanders reports.
Prosecutors on Thursday made public a trove of evidence used to justify murder charges against Neighborhood Watch volunteer George Zimmerman, including a police report that concluded "the encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman."
The evidence – including 183 pages of documents, witness statements and other material – was released Thursday to news organizations and other requestors by special prosecutor Angela Corey’s office, which has charged the 28-year-old Zimmerman with second-degree murder in the killing of 17-year-old Martin on Feb. 26 in Sanford, Fla. Also included was a document explaining what material was withheld.
The evidence, which was provided to Zimmerman’s attorney early this week, will be helpful to both prosecutors and the defense.
AP
A Feb. 27, 2012 photo by the Sanford Police Dept., shows George Zimmerman on the night of Trayvon Martin's shooting. The photo was released Thursday.
An autopsy by the Volusia County Medical Examiner on Martin's body found that the teenager was killed by a shot to the heart and that traces of THC -- or tetrahydrocannabinol, the active ingredient in marijuana -- were found in Martin's blood, though below the level that medical studies indicate would have caused "performance impairment."
But the documents give contradictory assessments of how far away Zimmerman was when he shot Martin.
Lab tests by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement's Orlando operations center concluded that residue tests on Martin's sweatshirt were "consistent with a contact shot" — that is, one in which the muzzle of the weapon is physically touching the victim.
But the autopsy report from the Volusia County (Fla.) Medical Examiner's office reached a different conclusion based on examination of the wound itself, saying, "This wound is consistent with a wound of entrance of intermediate range."
The report doesn't define "intermediate range."
In another report, a police officer responding to the shooting said that after Zimmerman was handcuffed, he saw “that his back appeared to be wet and was covered with grass,” and that he had suffered a bloody nose – consistent with Zimmerman’s account that he was attacked by Martin.
AP
A police photo of the back of George Zimmerman's head shows scalp lacerations.
A photo showing Zimmerman's bloodied head also is included in the report, as is a paramedic’s reports saying that he had a 1-inch laceration on his head and forehead abrasion.
"Bleeding tenderness to his nose, and a small laceration to the back of his head. All injuries have minor bleeding," paramedic Michael Brandy wrote about Zimmerman's injuries.
Another police report indicated that Zimmerman, who is white and of Hispanic heritage, had called Sanford police on at least four previous occasions while residing in the Retreat at Twin Lakes gated community in Sanford, and in each case the “suspicious person” was a black male.
“Investigation reveals that on Aug. 4, Aug. 5 and Oct. 6, 2011, and on Feb. 2, 2012, George Zimmerman reported suspicious persons – all young black males – in the Retreat neighborhood to Sanford Police Department,” it said. “According to records checks, all of Zimmerman’s suspicious persons calls while residing in the Retreat neighborhood have identified black males as the subjects.”
Zimmerman himself was on a prescription for Tamazepam, according to the paramedic's incident report reproducing his medical records. (Tamazepam is also known as Restoril and is prescribed for anxiety and insomnia.)
Read the police reports and other documentary evidence
Read what was excluded from the release and the reasons it was withheld
Another police report indicated that Sanford police thought Zimmerman was at fault, even though they let him go after questioning him.
"Investigation reveals that Martin was in fact running generally in the direction of where he was staying as a guest in the neighborhood," it said.
An eight-page summary of the evidence against Zimmerman released earlier this week listed 50 possible law enforcement witnesses -- including 18 Sanford police officers as primary witnesses, including lead Investigator Chris Serino -- and 28 civilian witnesses, including Martin's brother, mother and father, Zimmerman’s father and two of his friends . Twenty-two other potential civilian witnesses were not identified.
Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O'Mara, acknowledged receiving the materials Monday on a website his office set up to release information from the case Zimmerman's, but said, "Please remember and understand that it is inappropriate for us to comment on particular pieces of evidence."
Benjamin Crump, an attorney for the family of Trayvon Martin, and Mark O'Mara, the attorney for George Zimmerman, discuss how the just-released trove of new evidence will affect their case.
Zimmerman shot Martin during a confrontation inside the Retreat at Twin Lakes community, while the teenager was visiting his father’s fiancée.
The shooting came after Zimmerman called 911 reporting that Martin was acting suspiciously, as if he was on drugs. He later told police that he shot Martin in self-defense, after Martin punched him and pushed him to the ground.
Police initially failed to arrest Zimmerman or charge him with any crime because Florida's Stand Your Ground self-defense law allows the use of deadly force whenever someone feels threatened with serious bodily injury.
But after questions about possible racial motivation for the slaying, a special prosecutor took over the case and, on April 11, Zimmerman was charged with second-degree murder. Zimmerman, who pleaded not guilty to the charge, was released on April 23 on a $150,000 bond and has been out of the public eye since then.
Msnbc.com's Mike Brunker, Bill Dedman and M. Alex Johnson, NBC News producer Tom Winter and the Associated Press contributed to this report.
More content from msnbc.com and NBC News:
So much for a conviction now.
Convict him of what? It sounds like from the evidence there was some kind of scuffle - Zimmerman was bleeding and had wounds to his face. But I guess he wasn't allowed self-defence because the perp was black...........
Zimmerman may indeed escape conviction. However, anyone who knows squat about the legal system knows prosecutors don't bring cases they don't think they can win.
It seems quite clear that based on everything we know, Martin was going home. He did belong where he was. Zimmerman acted as provocateur, even after he had been advised by a police dispatcher that his intervention was unneeded. It is going to be very difficult to contend that Zimmerman backed Martin down, scared the hell out of him by waving a firearm around, and then was standing his ground when indeed it was Martin who had been placed on the defensive.
Zimmerman precipitated this incident. Period.
Why doesn't MSNBC show a more current photo of Trayvon, just like the one on ABC??? This photo of him 6 years ago is incendiary - and false. That is why no one trusts the liberal media anymore. Be fair and be honest - I know it's hard when you're trying to defend Obama's ill-advised comments on this incident. But Obama was WRONG to comment without all the facts. And the reason MSNBC does not want to show an HONEST PHOTO of Trayvon is because of Obama's ridiculous comment about how "Trayvon could have been his son." Yeah, with drugs in his system. What a fool for a President. Obama needs to go back to community organizing in the ghettos.
Is MSNBC going to report on the news today about Obama's dust-jacket for his 1991 book, which states, "Barck Obama is the first African American to become President of the Harvard Law Review. Born in Kenya, and raised in Indonesia....." Yep, all this is from his Publishing Company from 1991, and was used until 2007. Truth does prevail, it just takes time.
They are bring this case to trial so there will be not riots!! Not for anyother reason!
Thank You Jody.
Kate like it or not Zimmerman was TOLD at least twice to back off by the 911 operator. He CHOSE to pursue. He CHOSE to shoot an unarmed boy. Treyvon did not have a legal duty to identify himself to anyone. IF he did in fact use MMA on Zimmerman then good for him to defend himself against this wanna be cop. Evidence shows that this shooting was NOT accidental. He had PUSHED the muzzle of his gun into Treyvon's chest. I hope they hang him.
Getting your ass handed to you in fight which you started is not sufficient cause to shoot someone in "self defense".
Since when does a bloody nose and a wet jacket justify murder?
And Jody, Obama didn't comment on the facts of the case. He showed empathy (something you seem to be sorely lacking) to the grieving parents. It's a sad situation when a child dies.
These documents go along with what I have said all along, using my experience in military and civilian law enforcement, instead of buying into the hype that the actions of Mr. Zimmerman or the actions of Sanford officials afterward were racially motivated. I believe, as I have from the start, that George Zimmerman became a self-appointed armed security guard, and his lack of training in police or security procedures along with a lack of self-defense training led to the wrongful death of Trayvon Martin . I also believe that Sanford Police and Criminal Justice officials were derelict in their duties in not pursuing charges in the shooting death of an unarmed teenager.
In my opinion, there is no way any evidence released so far will prevent George Zimmerman from being convicted of manslaughter or possibly Second Degree Murder, which was what he should have been charged with within days of the incident. I also believe that no information that has come to light so far precludes a serious housecleaning in the Sanford Police Department or in the District Attorney's office they answer to.
I actually listened to the 911 call frances, they told him that it wasn't necessary to follow him, and he said, "Okay." Listen to it yourself.
The issue is still "Who instigated the conflict".
Not how badly was Zimmerman injured, not what picture does anyone use, not what race was the dead person, not what it says on some imaginary book jacket. A person cannot start a fight, shoot the other guy and claim self defense. If that becomes the norm no one will be safe walking down the street. Is that the country you want to see?
Very well written, xrayspecx !!!!
In my opinion, there is no way any evidence released so far will prevent George Zimmerman from being convicted of manslaughter or possibly Second Degree Murder, which was what he should have been charged with within days of the incident. I also believe that no information that has come to light so far precludes a serious housecleaning in the Sanford Police Department or in the District Attorney's office they answer to.
Agree ! I keep asking all those who claim that evidence is showing Martin attacked Zimmerman to SHOW me this evidence, because I do not see it at all.
When are they ever going to post some recent pictures of this kid? These 12yr old pictures are nothing like what this kid looks like today. Typical media!
One more little item for Birther Jody. Did you bother to fact-check Breitbart nonsense regarding the book jacket? Of course you didn't...
From the editor: "This was nothing more than a fact checking error by me--an agency assistant at the time," Goderich wrote in an emailed statement to Yahoo News. "There was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii. I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more."
Zimmerman had scratches and Treyvon had a bullet hole in his chest...who do you think got the raw end of this deal? It was as stated above "AVOIDABLE" ! The fact remains if Zimmerman had stayed put Treyvon would have been alive!
Yes Jody, thank you for the fact and truth. It sicken me to read yet another report that is attempting to incite racial hatred yet again. These liberals just cannot gt enough unless there becomes a racial war over this Trayvon Martin case. Zimmerman was innocent period. No cop thinks that the guy is guilty and then decides to let them go, that's liberal propaganda 101 folks. IF a cop did that, IA would strip them of their badge in a heartbeat specially in a case where someone was shot dead. The only reason we hear of all this gibberish reports is because they have conjured up a bunch of people who were not even in the state of Florida in all reality but will now testify seen as how swearing on a Bible and swearing to tell the truth in today's society means very little to people and the thought of personal conviction is almost laughable. Everyone with a brain knows Obama was born in Kenya baed off the interview with his biological grandmother and half brother and sister who even said that Kenya was proud that a fellow Kenyan could become the most powerful man in the world by being President of the USA. We then have the Sheriff in Arizona who did a private investigation into the birth certificate that Obama produced as his and found out that was a complete fraud, notice how all the sudden Eric Holder now presses charges against this Sheriff who by the way was elected by the people for his position. I have never in my life heard of the DOJ head honcho pressing personal charges against anyone. Cross Obuma and demand he tell the truth and this is what you get. If America rises up as a People and demand Obama be tossed out of the White House I can almost promise you he would declare Martial Law. I hope and pray and cannot wait until this man and his wife are ousted once and for all out of the white house. I just hope America learned their lesson that you never elect an individual based on media hype and most important never elect and individual with zero record of doing anything...........God help us.
Walker, you wrote: “Zimmerman acted as provocateur, even after he had been advised by a police dispatcher that his intervention was unneeded.” Since you were not at the scene, you have no way of knowing, with any degree of certainty, that Mr. Zimmerman provoked Mr. Martin into assaulting him. The best you can do is the best that anyone else can do, i.e., reason with the available information and form an opinion.
Ultimately, your subjective opinion is no better informed than anyone else’s, and your conclusion: “Zimmerman precipitated this incident”, has no more validity than anyone else’s.
Finally, you don't have the intellectual authority to end all discussion on this or any other topic, so your use of the word "period" is absurd and sanctimonious.
Another issue: Republicans passing laws that are for a select few. "Stand your ground" is an everyday common sense law we have lived by for generations. We do not need these ignorant visions these corrupt politicians are having at the request of a few. Phony to the frikken bone.
Conviction by Media Press has already been accomplished. Conviction by a jury would be difficult.
When the press shows images in evidence of a very young, angel-faced, Mr. Martin, while showing only hideous or grotesque,current images of Mr. Zimmerman, well, the press is stacking the jury, making a fair trial all the more difficult, and serving to inflame an already difficult situation. Otherwise, use images of Mr. Zimmerman as an angelic 13-year old, too.
But that doesn't relieve Mr. Zimmerman of blame in this case. This assault and killing were both clearly avoidable, and Mr. Zimmerman's actions on that evening were the catalyst in what has become a tragedy of errors.
Sanford, Florida, is obviously not South Central on a Saturday night. But rather a town so quiet that the police have very little experience in cases of murder. Why did Mr. Zimmerman feel so threatened in such a location? Why did he not follow instructions? Why did he carry a loaded handgun?
Many questions. Few answers. And maybe we all need to step back a little so that we might see more clearly, what the media has set before us.
Are you kidding me, this article is so one sided! The evidence is not going in favor of MSNBC, so they tailor it to steer there lemmings in the direction that they want!
TO: Kate90210 who wrote:
Murder. Zimmerman called the police and they told him to leave the young guy alone.
Being "black" is NOT enough reason to kill anybody these days, and if Zimmerman had followed the police orders, there would have never been any "scuffle".
I can't help but feel that Zimmerman provoked the whole encounter, probably because he was carrying a gun and felt emboldened to mess with people for little or no reason.
Oh, the sick, sick irony. Wow Jody. Talk about inciting racial hatred! New low for commenters I've seen today--and that's saying a lot. Ånd "liberal media" makes me laugh every single time. You just love to blame the media, don't you? Try a new, less tired line for a change.
Not much more to see here folks:
1. Martin is an unarmed child, walking through the neighborhood.
2. Zimmerman, wanna-be vigilante, calls 911 suspicious only because Martin is black and male.
3. Zimmerman is told to stand down.
4. Zimmerman pursues Martin anyway, with a gun (against Neighborh0od Watch Policy)
5. Whatever happens after that is moot, period--even with Florida's stupid law. Zimmerman went looking for trouble. How can he possibly claim self-defense if he incited a scuffle? HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY SAY ZIMMERMAN IS INNOCENT?
Aside from what everyone is saying here, Bill Dedman is my favorite investigative reporter. I am looking forward to him getting the real story here, and not giving up until that story is told!
They will have to hold this trial in Iceland to get a fair trial . . . . .
Jody-1593626
Then go on over to the ABC website to read and post on articles and quit your bitching!
The moment he stepped out of his truck after being told to not pursue, Zimmerman was in the wrong. It might not be 2nd degree murder but it's hard to not at least hang manslaughter on him.
I just hope that the jury has the option of manslaughter in case the "self defense" theory gains traction in deliberations. If he gets off without a conviction, it could tear this country apart.
@David Walker
BINGO finally someone that gets it.
What all the Zimmerman fans don't realize is that the FL Stand Your Ground law gave TM's the right to defend himself from an unknown man with a gun calling him names and not being overly friendly.
If Zimmerman had followed police orders and the Neighborhood watch rules (No Guns) no one would have been in any fight and no one would be dead.
Hey Judy, so did Rush Limbaugh, LOL!
its impossible to get a conviction when you had major media outlets outright FABRICATING, OBSTRUCTING and LYING about evidence in an ONGOING INVESTIGATION, where is the LAW ENFORCEMENT to ARREST these CRIMINALS for what is CRIMES they have committed? the stupidest thing to happen was for a sitting US president and LAWYER to SAY ANYTHING about an ongoing investigation, he basically sided with the prosecution and this guy calls himself a lawyer?
msnbc continues to use outdated pics of treyon while trying to side-step the collaborated reports about zimmerman. this is not justice in any form and for the general public to be quick to convict based on a medias bias reporting is very troubling for any society but this is not new and is just part of the downfall.
i do not trust any individual to do the right thing but as a free human i must give anyone the benefit of the doubt unless evidence says otherwise, for anything less than impartiality is judgement.
Seems like many are still stuck at square one, and others are actually seeing that in fact the facts are coming out which diminish those attempting to use this case as an incitement to rioting.
It will be decided in the court system based on these facts, not Political POVs or racial bias in ANY direction.
Stop beating yourselves up. I bet President Obama regrets his comments, and hasn't said a word more. And you can bet HE has the latest updates. THAT should tell everyone something...
I can see we have the white Klan on this site. It is not ok, for someone to follow another person because they are black. It is not ok, to take matters into your own hands, when you were told not to by authorities. I have never heard of anyone using marijuana and then became dangerous. So what! He had it in his system. You guys smoke it all the time. But, it's ok, when you guys use it. Your selling now! Opening clinics all over the states.. It ok now!
How the hell was he acting suspicious. Was he trying to climb into someone window. Was he trying to open peoples doors. Was he kicking things, or, yelling. NO! What could he have done so wrong for that man to kill him? He murdered that boy. All you Klan members think is ok. JUST another @!$%# gone. it is really sad. One day, you have to answer for your hate.
To iformonyobamasucks yes statistically more crimes are committed by black men. BUT IT IS BLACK ON BLACK CRIME! WHAT THE HELL DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH YOU! WE ARE ONLY 12.6% BUT IF YOUR TALKING ABOUT ALL PEOPLE,ALL RACES COMBINED. WHITE PEOPLE HAVE EVERYONE BEAT, HANDS DOWN. YOU PEOPLE COMMIT A LOT OF CRIMES. GET AWAY WITH IT TOO. FOR NOW! YOU ARE THE MOST HATEFUL PEOPLE ON EARTH.
YEA, JUMP UP AND DOWN NOW ! THAT RACIST IS GOING TO GET OFF! EVERY DOG HAS IT'S DAY!
REALLY LOOK IN THE MIRROR! WHAT DO YOU SEE! I KNOW!
I'm still firm on the facts that Zimmerman:
1. was following someone he did NOT see commit any crime.
2. Was told to stand down and wait for police, but he chose to ignore it.
3. Was carrying a gun and pursuing a "suspect", when every neighborhood watch
program calls for only calling and reporting to police.
4. Had a history of violence(assault on a cop, and domestic violence), yet never went to trial
for any of them. Maybe because daddy judge pulled some strings.
It points to Zimmerman being guilty of manslaughter at the very least.
And no, Obama didn't make a statement regarding the criminal case(or lack of at the time) against Zimmerman.
Obama just showed sympathy to the parents, as they were grieving for the loss of a son.
BTW, just because Martin smoked marijuana, doesn't make him a "junkie".
That's like calling cigarette smokers crackheads.
Why does everyone keep calling Trayvon Martin "a child"? Since when is a 17 year old anything called a child?
I think Zimmerman will cut a deal and it won't go to trial. To all you folks out there who think Zimmerman did nothing wrong I ask you this: You're walking home from 7-11 after picking up a snack and a car starts following you slowly down the street, freaked out yet? No? Then the car stops and a guy you don't know gets out and starts following you. How about now? Then they guy starts a verbal confrontation with you. What would you think his intentions were? Race aside, if anyone had the right to stand their ground it was Martin. What would you say if Martin happened to be white instead of black? Would you still so vehemently stand up for Zimmerman? Racist much?
I've got my want list all made out. There will be a lot of electronics on the market really cheap before long. No warranties but you have to give up something for a good deal. Also employment in the housing industry should pick up as construction will be going gangbusters to replace all the rioters houses that they burn down and the businesses. Economic good times return to the Sunshine State!
So because Travons picture is out of date and he had "trace" amounts of THC in his system some of you people think it was OK for Zimmerman to murder the kid........ Jody and company, you disgust me. Do something constructive, go off somewhere and search for your humanity.
NavyRetired2003,
Of course he was just a child. Didn't you see the picture at the top of the page. Perfect little angel. So cute with such a great future. I'll bet that criminal Zimmerman blew pot smoke in his face before he shot him. How else could someone so innocent get THC in his blood stream??????????????
I suggest you all click on the link in the article to the "evidence" released and spend some time and read the reports, witness statements, Coroners Report, EMS report......And to all of you that have been claiming the police didn't take his gun....didn't take his clothing....didn't take him into custody ( they read him his Miranda Rights...Zimmerman chose to speak without a lawyer...) You were wrong.
Read how his father said it wasn't Trayvon screaming for help on the 911 call, and how it was his father that made him come to Stanford to keep an eye on him after he was suspended from school for 10 days for Cannabis possession....and that he had THC in his system the night he got shot.....witnesses saw them going towards the "T" in the sidewalk...meaning in the direction of where Zimmerman parked his truck...not towards Trayvon's father's girlfriends house.....Guy in dark hoodie pounding guy in red jacket on the ground.....
Trayvons voice on background telephone call to police by woman, clearly shows Trayvon screaming for help over and and over and over and over clearly tells us he was confronted by Zimmerman and that Zimmerman was in control of Trayvon. Trayvon was pleading for anyone to help him screaming HELP! Then you hear the gun going off.Maybe Trayvon tried at the last second to beat Zimmerman off before Zimmerman murdered him. Clearly...Trayvon was heard and recorded , pleading for help. It was not Zimmerman screaming. It was clearly Trayvon. Zimmerman was in control of Trayvon making him scream....So recently Zimmerman called 911 on 4 other blacks and nothing stuck. "they always get away", this time Zimmerman had to prove something, he was not wrong those other times.......with his gun he won't get away this time.
xrayspex,
Apparently, you either don’t have the credentials you claim to have, or you are seriously uninformed about the details of this case.
George Zimmerman was a legitimate member of The Retreat at Twin Lakes Neighborhood Watch. Therefore, your characterization of Mr. Zimmerman as: “a self-appointed armed security guard, and his lack of training in police or security procedures along with a lack of self-defense training”, is not only meaningless, but also clearly demonstrates your bias and lack of legal knowledge.
Your opinion is based on incomplete knowledge and very poor reasoning skills, and you are welcome to it.
Mike in Delray,
None of that matters. All that matters is justice for the child, Trayvon. And justice only means Zimmerman goes to jail. Whether Zimmerman was right or wrong doesn't matter a bit. It has gone way beyond that. He will be offered up as the goat to prevent riots. Watch closely as it unfolds.
I live approx 900 miles from Sanford, Fla. I looked out my window the night of the incident and I saw what everyone else on this site saw......NOTHING! But yet you all have the answers. All I can say is thank god none of you are on the jury either way. The jury will view/listen to all the evidence and to what they do best, reach a verdict. In the end, 50% will agree and 50% disagree on here but the only constant is name calling and hateful remarks. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people on here looking for a good discussion, weighing the evidence that is provided through the media which is not always accurate. To come on here and say you know who is guilty and who is innocent is just BS. Plain and simple!
Camjayzoe,
I wonder why Trayvon came back to confront Zimmerman? You can clearly hear the 911 tapes. He tells the dispatcher that he's running and you can hear ZImmerman running. The dispatcher says to stop, return to your car, and wait for the officer. You can clearly hear him say "ok" and he stops running. The attack happens near the car so however it happened it started as Zimmerman was returning to his car.
This whole thing stinks, starting with how the media handled it at the beginning.
They will figure out what happened and we will know what emboldened this young man to face his attacker.
Badger 1,
Sometimes things get a little slow in the basements some occupy. You know, no money for new video games, pot supply getting tight, connection busted, then they get a little carried away. I doubt you will ever have to worry about any being on a jury. Bless their hearts, they mean well but just can't get out of the basement rut.
Hmm wonder how the situation would of turned out if a white guy wandered into the hood and got shot, and the shooter with a few scatches claimed self defence?
So many people with their opinions! And that's all they are! NO WHERE, has it ever been said Zimmerman was "waving a gun" around. In fact it was mentioned that his gun was in a holster on his waist. If he was waving a gun, then Trayvon deserved to be shot for being so stupid! Call it natural seletion if nothing else. You don't go up against someone with a gun if you are unarmed! You turn and run like hell! There's an old saying, you don't bring a knife to a gun fight! Also, it was never ordered that Zimmerman back off, only suggested that he wait for the officer to get there. Seems to me it was also mentioned that the dispatcher heard Zimmerman say that the person had turned and was coming toward him . However, I wasn't there and neither was anyone else! Zimmerman said he shot Trayvon when Trayvon grabbed for the gun in the holster and that Travon actually had hold of the barrel of the gun. Now we also find out the angel Trayvon had been using marijuana prior to this. Obviously it affected his judgement! At worst, I think they might get a manslaughter conviction, but murder, no way! Going to be hard to find a unpartial jury at this point.
HOG Lover!
I hear you, that lack of sunlight has a disturbing effect on the mind.
The headline should read:
Trayvon Martin shooting 'ultimately avoidable by Martin's parents'
When will the biased liberal media stop with the race baiting? Enough already!
American Lobo
I'm still firm on the facts that Zimmerman:
1. was following someone he did NOT see commit any crime.
not illegal to follow someone, i can follow you wherever you go (unless private property) and there is nothing short of confrontation you can do about it.
2. Was told to stand down and wait for police, but he chose to ignore it.
first of all that is not what dispatch said; second, dispatch cannot give lawful orders and third, he did stop as heard on dispatch recording.
3. Was carrying a gun and pursuing a "suspect", when every neighborhood watch
program calls for only calling and reporting to police.
he was not part of any 'official' neighborhood watch and he had ccw permit and was a resident in a gated community, he had very right to do what he did prior to the confrontation.
4. Had a history of violence(assault on a cop, and domestic violence), yet never went to trial
for any of them. Maybe because daddy judge pulled some strings.
maybe because there was not enough evidence? nice that you assume corruption to fit your bias views but none the less its not a huge deal in relation as that does not constitute a 'history of violence'.
It points to Zimmerman being guilty of manslaughter at the very least.
not at all, from my perspective it was an avoidable event on both parties but that the only crime committed was by martin attacking zimmerman without warrant.
And no, Obama didn't make a statement regarding the criminal case(or lack of at the time) against Zimmerman.
yes, obama did make a statement regarding an ongoing criminal case, just like he did with that black professor and the white cop which resulted in the great 'beer summit', he opened his fat mouth about something, he as a US president should never comment about.
Obama just showed sympathy to the parents, as they were grieving for the loss of a son.
no, he did not, he pandered to potential voters.
BTW, just because Martin smoked marijuana, doesn't make him a "junkie".
i would agree but the fact is he smoked weed and a lot people still see weed as the boogie man while ignoring pharmaceuticals.
That's like calling cigarette smokers crackheads.
lol oh come on what the hell? have you ever tried crack? ever smoke a cig? those two things are nothing alike but somehow you want to put then in the same sentence. there are people who abuse weed and they might as well be doing crack, some people are junkies but they dont always need to do drugs to be one.
Good for you Ed! Finally somone points out the obvious...that Trayvon had the same right to STAND HIS GROUND. He had every right to defend himself against an idiot who chased him down (for no legitimate reason.)
Mike in Delray - I sure hope no one ever "misinterprets" your actions in a dark alley...and I hope that if it does happen, and you do decide to try to defen yourself, that whatever witnesses there are will afford you the benefit of the doubt.
And just for the record... how did Zimmerman get out his gun during the scuffle? It is far more likely that he already had it out. Police (you know, the ones who are actually trained for this kind of thing and not some idiot on a Napoleonic power trip) are trained to announce their presence, warn a would-be attacker, and NOT to shoot people who don't stop. Zimmerman's job ended when he called 911. This idiot got out of his car and FOLLOWED Trayvon. He was not wearing a uniform. Come on, people. Ask yourselves if you would have felt threatened by somone chasing after you at night? The kid ran AWAY. Zimmerman followed. Then the scuffle happened. THEN Zimmerman shot Trayvon.
Pretty simple. Zimmerman disregarded the 911 dispatcher's order to stay put. Had he followed orders, an unarmed kid who was just walking home that night would not be dead. End of (sad) story.
Michelle:
Any evidence to back that one? I didn't think so. Zimmerman kept his distance.
John:
There's a problem with your assessment. A couple, actually. Zimmerman didn't get a directive not to pursue, only a "cover your assets" disclaimer. Zimmerman was already out of his truck. And, after getting that disclaimer, he was heading back to his truck.
Arby:
If you can't see the pictures of Zimmerman's injuries, then I can't help you. How did you think he was injured? The injury fairy? You do see evidence. You just don't admit that it is evidence.
=====================================
I don't know if the situation was avoidable in any reasonable sense. The concept of "don't worry about the fact that the neighborhood is being robbed blind. The police don't want more work" is not a reasonable sense. I do know that those police want to railroad Zimmerman and so it adds nothing when they say he could have avoided it.
Patriot Chic -
Better yet: "Trayvon Martin shooting ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman's parents"? After all, he was the one with the violence issues: assaulting a cop, domestic violence, etc.
Robert Eagle - If Trayvon had grabbed the gun as Zimmerman claimed, two things would be evident: burns on his hand/palm and gunpowder residue on his hand as well. No evidence of this. Nice try, though.
Thank you openminded! If Martin had been white and the same thing had happened all the pro Zimmerman folks would instead be screaming for him to go to jail because you just can't trust those Hispanics. Zimmermans actions lead directly to the confrontation. There is no argument there. And you're thought on whether or not Zimmermans gun was still holstered during the confrontation is a good one. At the very least it would have had to have been unsnapped for him to have accessed while he was being so violently pummeled. He's not a Police Officer so what was his intent in opening his holster.
(Fixed it for you).
Exactly. And continued to handle it biased with the likes of NBC editing the 911 tapes to make it sound like Zimmerman picked out Martin based on his race.They tried and convicted Zimmerman before the facts were even in. And of course we can't forget about their "WHITE" words out there in the headlines as in Zimmerman is a "White Hispanic" because his father is white and mother from Peru (let me know when you hear them say Obama is a "white" African-American having a white mother and black father).
The dinosaur liberal main stream media in this nation is fully responsible for every single attack by black youths on white people post-Trayvon, up to and including that attack on two journalists in Norfolk, VA that even the police tried to hide. But they don't care. They have no shame and they aren't capable of owning up and taking responsibility for and owning up to their falsehoods and flat out lies. But why be surprised. That's the liberal left in general.
Christian mom, if what you say is what happened (even with how you tend to minimize zimmermans injuries) you are making the case for self defense. Sounds a lot like zimmerman got his ass kicked and martin was threatening to do more. Heck of a deal, if marten threatened more violence, it would explain the shot to the chest.
Regardless, martin also had the opportunity to end the confrontation. Looks like we will all have to wait for all of the "facts" to come out in trial.
Openminded, your brain fell out. T was on suspension from school for the 3rd time. T's brother is on record of having said T punched a bus driver in the face. T was suspended for fighting & not getting along with fellow classmates. T was found with dope and burglar tools in his school bag. Z' violence was from "pushing" a cop that was arresting his friend. His ex filled a restraining order on him, he likewise filled one on her.
Like i said, T should of been GROUNDED, not roaming the streets, after dark, in the rain, snooping around inside of a gated community...
Now go change your screen name to..."Clueless" it fits you better.
For all you wannabe armchair slueths out there. Please direct me to one shred of evidence that proves that Zimmerman continued to pursue Martine after he was told not to. If not,then a reasonable assumption would be for Zimmerman to stick to his story of stopping turning around and starting to return to his vehicle when he was then jumped by Martin. he will not be convicted. There is too much reasonable doubt.
Patriotic Chic, The brother supposedly being "on record" is a Twitter post with no corroborating evidence. Martin had never been suspended for fighting, according to the school. Martin was suspended for having a baggie that tested positive for marijuana and a pipe, not actual drugs, and the "burglar's tool" was a screwdriver. Martin was walking back to the house he was staying at in this "gated" community, not "snooping." He had every right to be there.
If you are going to slam others, please have the facts to back it up.
If Trayvon was high on pot he would be even less likely to confront Zimmerman. The THC is irrelevant and only indicates the kid smoked pot sometime in the prior month. Had he been high at the time of the killing he probably would have just run away and may have not been murdered by the guy stalking him.
I'd be more concerned if either had alcohol in their system as that is a drug that actually makes people act more violently - pot has the opposite effect for most people.
I am glad that there is a release of public information in regards to this case (with both sides' approval).
Michelle: Your claim if Martin hasd been white... I believe the result would have been similar. The difference would have been that the case would have received initially a higher priority by the medias. I would guess that the prosecution would have still file for a second degree murder, except it would not have included racial profiling/motivation. The reason would have been that Zimmerman could not have been induced himself into thinking that the "white" person he is following may be responsible for the recent burlary by reported "blacks." However Zimmerman would still be guilty of bring a gun, violating police instructions, violating basic community law and regulations, and etc.
10tacle: I am curious how the liberal Fox Media is handling this case? Fox commentators clearly agreed that Zimmerman followed Trevon because Zimmerman believed that Trevon was involved with recent burglaries in the enclosed community. It has been reported that the burglaries were committed by blacks. It was that particular fact and Zimmerman's obvious negligiant to Police instruction that resulted toward this tragedy. Yet you think this is liberal main stream media? So if FOX is liberal media by your contention, Then please explain who are the NON-LIBERAL MEDIA by your standards???
"It sound like Zimmerman picked out Martin based on his race"... HMMM, DUH!!!!! Did you hear the conversation between Zimmerman and the Dispatchers (TWICE)!!!!! Did Zimmerman follow Trevon, because Trevon was WHITE? Zimmerman followed because Trevon looked suspecious and possbilly involved with recent burgaluries... So how would Zimmerman come to that conclusion given that Trevon is drinking IceTea and eating Skettles???? GEEZ, one would think that common sense filter would have made you think twice before posting and agreeing with your fellow Whackies.
Can the media just stop reporting on this???
Click on the documents link and scroll down to the Community Flyers and the Correspondences between Zimmerman and the Sandford Police regarding the Community Watch Program...nothing but cordial, polite exchanges between him and the Police that would come and give talks at the Meetings....This guy went out of his way for a long time to help keep his neighborhood safe... They write about the other break-ins and how the investigations were progressing...The Police didn't have a single problem with how the Community and Zimmerman took the Neighborhood Watch Seriously.....How the Police were stepping up patrols in and around the neighborhood in light of the other break-ins...NOT the Racist, , looking for trouble cop-wanna-be the media and especially NBC tried to make him out to be....
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Zimmerman_Discovery.pdf
Zimmerman's 2 small cuts were just minor cuts nothing major. If he were running (chasing Trayvon) isn't it possible that he slipped and fell?? And let's not forget Zimmerman is being medicated for anxiety.
@Mike, don't you think that in the 21st century that ANYONE is allowed to walk down a street? The guy is nuts afterall.
Patriot chic
1. Why resort to calling someone clueless? Why the name calling?
2. T was not just roaming the streets, nor was he snooping around inside a gated community. He was there staying with family ~ his dad's gf or fiancee. Good kids do stupid things. Adults (28, like Z) should know better.
3. Are you saying it's okay for Z to 'push" a cop because he was arresting his friend? It comes across like you're saying that's okay, but not okay for T's actions. Neither persons actions were okay.
4. Just because T was suspended for the 3rd time, this whole thing is okay?
I'm just sad that a young man died, and another man's life will never be the same. I wasn't there, but it definately sounds like this entire ordeal should have been avoided. God Bless all the families involved. And we'll never have all the answers in the case.
Final point. All this took place within 7 minutes time from Z calling police to T being shot and police arriving. Doesn't that seem REALLY quick?
Hey thturd (fitting name, BTW): FNC didn't doctor tapes. FNC didn't accuse Zimmerman of a RACIAL MURDER. And finally, FNC didn't include "WHITE" all over their headlines when describing Zimmerman.
Get over yourself!!!! I don't own a pair of rose colored glasses like you liberals.
I suggest everyone read the evidence linked to in this article. It's quite an interesting read. The two things that stick out to me the most are the injury reports and the timeline of events.
The injury report on Zimmerman said he had a closed fracture and a 1-inch gash on his head. Treyvon's report said he had a 1/4-1/2 inch cut on his knuckle and a single gunshot wound to the chest. Since the gunshot wound was his only serious injury, this would seem to indicate that Treyvon struck first.
The timeline is also very interesting and a piece of evidence I had been waiting for. They said Zimmerman's 911 call* ended at 19:15:23. The first 911 call reporting a fight* (with the screaming and later the gunshot able to be heard in the background) is logged at 19:16:43, only 1 minute and 20 seconds after Zimmerman got off the phone. This lends credence to the idea that Treyvon doubled back and confronted Zimmerman because it seems far fetched that Zimmerman could have caught up to Treyvon in such a short time.
*Both tapes are available on Wikipedia if you'd care to listen for yourself.
Have the burglaries stopped? Some one on newsvine told me that they have.
@mike, you must have skipped by paragraphs 13 through 16 or "forgot" what was written, which is it?
Ok can we all agree that our children, no matter the age, shouldnt run from the community watch? Furthermore, should we tell our children to seek the help of an adult if fearing for ones safety? Openminded's position that someone should confront an unknown attacker is extremely bad advice.
Also, please keep in mind that Zimmerman would of had to fake pass a lie detector test.
The statement was that Zimmerman was jumped by Trayvon, Trayvon inflicted the wounds through an undisclosed amount of blows, and then Trayvon attempted to take the gun from Zimmerman's holster.
Unless the lie detector was foiled we all must assume that these events did take place.
So why did Trayvon not return to his home and instead came back and attacked Zimmerman. This article states that one of the pieces of information is that Trayvon was generally heading in the direction of his home. Why double back?
Maybe he was angry and thought he was bring chased by some racist(maybe). Then he attacked Zimmerman, saw the gun, and in rage went for it. Anyone can get caught up in rage and make stupid decisions. That is why I would vehemently tell my kids that one lesson Trayvon's death can teach us is that our children may be feeling a bit invulnerable in today's society. Our kids are sheltered, and entitled, and make stupid mistakes.
Hopefully the lawyers will shed some light on this part of it.
Zimmerman should do time for 3rd degree manslaughter. No way did he leave the house thinking i'm going to kill a kid, let alone a black one.
I am sure most people wouldnt believe this but I bet the person that feels the worst about this is Zimmerman himself. He has to "look himself in the mirror" for the rest of his life.
PreceededByNone,
What does not surprise me here is that when you don’t have any truth or legitimate facts to work with you resort to distortion and outright fabrication.
Your first observation, i.e., “Martin is an unarmed child” is uninformed hogwash. According to the United States Census Bureau (My paraphrase): When a human being residing within the borders of the United States etc, reaches the age of ten years old, they are no longer a child, they become an adolescent. When they reach 13 years of age they are a teenager (http://www.census.gov/). You are pandering for sympathy. If your position is strong, then you don’t need to pander.
Your second observation: “Zimmerman, wanna-be vigilante, calls 911 suspicious only because Martin is black and male”, fails on so many levels. As I informed xrayspex, “George Zimmerman was a legitimate member of The Retreat at Twin Lakes Neighborhood Watch”; therefore, he was not a “wanna-be vigilante”. Secondly, you seem to be projecting your own racial bias onto Mr. Zimmerman, i.e., you have no way of knowing that Mr. Zimmerman “calls 911 suspicious only because Martin is black and male”.
Your third observation, “Zimmerman is told to stand down”, is an example of your poor knowledge of the details of this case. According to Moni Basu of CNN, the 911 dispatcher told Mr. Zimmerman that they did not NEED him to continue to follow the suspicious person; they did not, by any stretch of the imagination, demand that he “stand down”, which means to quit, refrain from or give up (What witnesses say in the Trayvon Martin case: Moni Basu, 3/27/12). The difference between the two concepts makes the dispatcher’s communication to Mr. Zimmerman sound more arbitrary then definite, i.e., more of a suggestion, then a command. Judging by Zimmerman’s reaction, he must have felt that he had options.
Your fourth observation, “Zimmerman pursues Martin anyway, with a gun (against Neighborh0od Watch Policy)” (sic), is a perfect example of compound stupidity. If Mr. Zimmerman was not told to “stand down” to begin with, then for him to pursue Mr. Martin anyway is non-sequitur. Moreover, there is no rule or law in the The Retreat at Twin Lakes community by-laws that make it against policy to carry a weapon on the community property while on Neighborhood Watch. And again, if you had a better command of the facts of this case, you’d realize that Mr. Zimmerman was on his way to a Target store to do some shopping when he saw Mr. Martin and decided to investigate. His being armed was incidental.
Your last observation is your most meaningless. You have no basis in fact to claim that Mr. Zimmerman “went looking for trouble”. You have no basis in fact to claim that Mr. Zimmerman “incited a scuffle”. You have no basis in fact to claim that any point is moot. Bold, capitalized lettering will not compensate for your absurd, inadequate premises.
Under the American constitution, every citizen is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by a jury of his or her peers, which apparently, is another simple fact that has eluded your meager intellectual grasp.
Distortion of the truth and a poor understanding of the details of the case are no substitute for well reasoned and well informed argument.
NavyRetired, you asked when was anyone 17 years old called a child? Go out and have sex with a 17 year old girl and see how quick you get arrested and convicted of child molestation and rape. I'll buy you a beer when you get out of prison in about 20 years.
PrecededBYNone -
Wow... First, unarmed is hindsight, Zimmerman could not have known he was armed or unarmed. Second, "child"... you are worse than the media. "Vigilante"... man... you a messed up dude.
Do you have any proof?
In only read that the operator said "We don't need you to do that". That is quite different than odering to "stand down".
He was not patrolling for NW at the time, he was on his way somewhere and noticed Martin. Guns are not illegal.
For the simple fact that why would a "vigilante" who wanted to cause Martin harm, have not just PULLED HIS GUN IN THE FIRST PLACE?
How in the HELL did this "unarmed child" get on top and start beating this GUN WIELDING VIGILANTE?
You are trying to force something where there is nothing. Using words like "child" or "unarmed" when there is no way Martin could have known both. Presenting things after the fact, and using terms like Vigilante...
You are a sad, sad, person, and it depresses me to know we share the same planet.
...A soldier newly stationed at MacDill Air Force Base, near Tampa was brutally beaten by 4 thugs in Trademarked Trayvon hoodies and baggie pants when his car broke down "in the Wrong Neighborhood"...Look at the first sucker punch...Kinda like how Zimmerman describes how the fight started.... The video caught on a home security camera is tough to watch, you can practically feel every blow and kick....First punch comes out of nowhere and then the posse joins in.....They couldn't have cared less if the kicks to his head had killed him....they got his wallet and cell phone.....and went on their merry way.
http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=187391
Gee, I wonder if that photo of injuries to the back of Zimmerman's head might indicate that he felt 'threatened' by Martin, which is all that is needed under Florida's 'stand your ground' statute? And Martin was smoking 'weed' just before the encounter?
Why the prosecutor thought they had a case is really weird. There may be a few 'loose ends', but the basic facts seem to back up Zimmerman's version of events.
My prediction is that this is just a 'politically motivated' prosecution to keep a lid on racial tensions, and the charges will ultimately be thrown out after the elections in November.
If so, just maybe they got their guy.
BP the Grape - Child is under ten. He was not saying that he is an adult, just that he is not a "child". But, seeing as 18 is an adult... and we don't wear our ages on our forheads... the judgement looking at something like TV, is that he is an adult.
j70141 in Colorado "I actually listened to the 911 call frances, they told him that it wasn't necessary to follow him, and he said, "Okay." Listen to it yourself."
Yes, he did say Okay, and the transcript indicates that he DID stop following him right after that.
So what's your point?
sucks that the kid had to die. And yes Navy they call anyone under 18 a kid.
'anyone who knows squat about the legal system knows prosecutors don't bring cases they don't think they can win' Under normal circumstances, you are correct. However, this is anything but normal circumstances, and is clearly a politically-motivated, election-year trial.
'Because naturally, black people aren't allowed in white neighborhoods. Racist much?' Of course, blacks are 'allowed' in white neighborhoods. It does help, however, if they don't steal everything which is not chained down. And then assault the neighborhood watch guy who is keeping an eye on things...
The burglary question is an interesting one.....
I live rural. From time to time we get cars passing by that we do not recognize. Nobody would take this road since it leads nowhere unless they live on this road. So a car, truck, van that is not known to us makes us take notice. It isn't only me, but all my neighbors that do have guns and would not hesitate to use one if necessary. My neighbor has followed these autos, taken down licenses, etc.
For us, waiting for a sheriff to come and do the investigative work is not possible. It takes way too long and somebody casing the area would be gone. So following is required and yes it is possibly dangerous if the person realizes he/she is being followed, or spied upon. Zimmerman did call the police when he was following Martin. If Martin was worried about being followed, he could have called the police as well.
Roy,
The point is that Trayvon double backed, by crime scene investigation of foot prints, and he ambushed Zimmerman.
What was the poor kid thinking. I have smoked before. It doesnt make you suicidal or overtly brave. Could of been the person he was talking on his cell phone with? We will never know unless something big breaks from the trial.
Patriot Chic,
The headline should read:
Trayvon Martin shooting "ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman's parents and George Zimmerman.
Zimmerman's father is a judge.
George Zimmerman does not have a single reason for not knowing what the definition and essence of murder is: the unprovoked, needless killing of a human being.
During the first 18 years of his life, what were Zimmerman's parents telling him?
On February 26, 2012, the ego-thriving self-appointed Rambo George bestowed upon himself the titles of "cop, jury, judge and executioner." Logically or with humanity, how can you blame Trayvon's parents for Zimmerman's aberrant and deadly personality? Your alignment with this killer shows that you are also maladjusted.
If you have children "Patriot" Chic, may God help them!
Prosecutors need to stop taking Creative Writing Classes in College.....This one was almost as bad as the Fairytale the DA made up in the Casey Anthony case....The whole world knows Casey was responsible for the death of her child.....Just NOT in the way the DA tried to prove....The Jury did the only thing they could in finding her "Not Guilty" of the Crime as portrayed by the State....DA overcharged and couldn't prove it.
Mike,
I bet that is the only thing everyone on this thread would agree with.
The justice system in Florida is beyond broken.
a hell of a tragedy, for all concerned; leave police work to the police; now for the evidence of the case; zimmerman will not be convicted in this matter; it does appear from the trajectory of the bullet, that zimmerman was on the ground and fired up at Martin, since there was gunpowder residue on Martins jacket, the shot was fired between 1-3 feet.
What happened prior to the physical confrontation weights against Zimmerman, and will get him an involuntary manslaughter conviction with a light sentence.
However, shooting a person who is smashing your head on the concrete while sitting on you does not constitute 2nd degree murder
It would be nice if people stopped claiming that Zimmerman ignored the dispatcher's instruction to stop following Martin, because when told that, Zimmerman said 'Okay', and did stop following him and was arranging to meet the Police 6 seconds later. The idea that Zimmerman ignored that instruction and kept 'stalking' Martin is not supported by any evidence.
America Today-Anthony....The Justice System works fine....I've sat on a few Juries...2 Guilty, 1 not guilty...It was fascinating....
There are however some bad actors looking to feather their caps in hopes of their future pursuits....
Saxon,
Actually the powder burns on Trayvon put the range at 3 to 6 inches.
Zimmerman probably had a belt holster with the handle pointing back. If Trayvon got the gun out of the holster he was automatically in a bad position.
Roy,
Most of the lynch mob has been told of these alleged 911 tapes enough that they are listening to them finally. It is obvious that Zimmerman complied with the dispatchers request, and with the release of the time line it is also obvious that ZImmerman didnt chase down Trayvon.
You can tell that the reality is sinking in because this thread is only 500 comments and not 2000 like yesterday.
Mike,
I agree. That is what makes me passionate about his topic. It took the DOJ getting involved to force Florida to place a special prosecutor to appease the mob. I would hate to be on the wrong end of mob justice.
.Anthony..(#1.89)...I wrote this earlier in response to another person claiming Zimmermans guilt...So, this is not directed at you, just pointing out how, most likely the shooting took place.
"It's clear by your posts you have never taken a Defensive Shooting class. In the event you must draw and fire in a close quarter situation....one doesn't take the time to extend their arms out as if they are at a gun range....
1. The assailant is most likely within that distance
2. It would give them the opportunity to knock the gun out of the way or out of your hand.
If, as I suspect, Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman drew his gun from its holster, he pulled it out, turned it up and fired while his hand or elbow was still at his side.....THAT puts it well in the "Intermediate " distance of greater than 6".....Ever hear the term " Shooting from the hip" ???"
Another important fact is that Zimmerman didn't empty his magazine...one shot...Self-Defence says that you shoot ONLY until the threat is neutralized....
Ed1118000, David Walker doesn’t “get it”, and I’m afraid you “get it” even less.
Whether or not Mr. Martin had an equal right to stand his ground is irrelevant; it doesn’t change any of the circumstances leading to his death.
Next, do you have any evidence to support your claim that Mr. Zimmerman was calling Mr. Martin names and “not being overly friendly”? Also, according to Mr. Zimmerman’s testimony: Mr. Martin did not know that Mr. Zimmerman was armed until the fight began, which is well into the time-line of the event. If you have testimony that you’d like to present that supports your claims, then please do so.
You do not have very deep understanding of the details of this case. The rules that govern the Neighborhood Watch of The Retreat at Twin Lakes, state that Watch personnel should not be armed on the community property while on duty (Barry, Kovaleski, et. al. Race, Tragedy and Outrage Collide After a Shot in Florida:Aprip 1, 2012). If you actually knew what you were talking about, you’d know that Mr. Zimmerman was on his way to a local Target store and just happened to be armed, when he saw Mr. Martin and decided to investigate, i.e., he wasn't officially on duty (ibid).
You wrote: “If Zimmerman had followed police orders and the Neighborhood watch rules (No Guns) no one would have been in any fight and no one would be dead.” What “orders” would those be? The police never issued any direct “orders” to Mr. Zimmerman, or indirect “orders” through the 911 dispatcher (ibid). If you have any evidence to support your claim that you can VERIFY, then please present it for discussion.
Akius,
Are you still attempting to defend Zimmerman's murder and pander to haters?
If your position for Zimmerman's ridiculous claim of "self defense" was strong, you would not work hard to twist the truth, obfuscate and deceive.
You stated that you were a person of faith.
How do you sleep at night?
Where is your Christian conscience?
NO chance of convicting GZ!
GZ wasn't pursuing TM .He was doing what neighbourhood watchers do, keeping an eye on a suspicious guy.
He was told he didn't have to follow TM & appeared to be heading back to his car based on 911 tapes. He even stated that TM was approaching him on the tape.
TH had no business approaching him & should have continued to his ads place & not confronted GZ.
There are blue & white Neighbour hood Watch signs through out the complex so TM should not be surprised that he was being watched.
US laws allow deadly force when attacked which clearly the evidence points to TM attacking GZ.
I feel sorry for the original cops & prosecutor who were right in not charging GZ. That of course doesn't mean they shouldn't investigate further until all evidence is thoroughly examined.
It is a sad day when special interest groups can force an arrest without cause.
@ XRAYSPEX...I am in full agreement with one exception. His actions were that of a vigilanty (sp?) not even an armed security guard. With your back round you would know more than I...do you not think a second degree murder conviction more likely? He pursued against the advice of a police dispatcher, he chose to arm himself, he has a history of what seems to be racial profiling, he made comments such as "...they are always getting away with this...", independent reports claim the range was intermediate (I believe that would put it just short of combat range or between two and five feet), (though circumstantial) his own past of violence even against law enforcement (making me question how he was able to obtain a CCW permit), and a number of other facts. I could see manslaughter if all these facts were true and an accidental discharge were proven. I'm thinking 2nd degree. Thanks for the informed input.
To the poster who brought up MSNBC and it's refusal to offer a recent photo of Martin...while I firmly believe Zimmerman is ultimately guilty I agree completely. If the story is told it should be portrayed HONESTLY, IMPARTIALLY, AND FROM BOTH SIDES.
Someone else posted that the prosecution would not take a case they were not sure they had good odds of winning...though in this case I believe you are more than right the statement is not entirely true. Cases are, on occasion, prosecuted for political reasons, or due to public pressure. Could you imagine the potential for violence had the state dismissed this case out of hand? I NEVER condone social violence as a means of obtaining any true justice...but how would YOU feel if it were your community? Zimmerman belongs in prison. I feel terrible for his family...but after he serves his time HE will come home. Treyvon Martin will never get that chance. Treyvon Martins parents will never get that chance. Was he a thug? I do not believe so, no. He was a young man following a fad...the same hoodies young people of EVERY race wear today...the same sweat shirts I wear to work on chilly, damp days. He wasn't walking through the neighborhood taking pulls off his 40oz beer-in-a-bag, trying to peer in houses for valuables, he was walking back to a home he was a guest in. He was not carrying a gun or a knife or a baseball bat, he was carrying candy and an ice tea. He was a kid, one who's future could still be ANYTHING HE WANTED IT TO BE...now all he will ever be is a memory.
Mike,
According to the records Zimmerman claimed Trayvon reached for the holstered gun. They recreated the whole scene and administered the lie detector test.
We know Trayvon ambushed Zimmerman and tried for his gun. What we dont know is why Trayvon came back.
25Walker since when is sating facts not Christian ?
Arkius is absolutely correct.
Courts rule on facts that are provable not some misguided inaccurate rendition of the event!
I am quite amazed at how people misinterpret the facts of this case.
Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law Prof said from the beginning there is no Probable Cause to arrest GZ.
I don't know if Zimmerman will be convicted or not. If there is no more evidence pointing to his guilt then he really ought to go completely free. But what astounds me most of this whole episode has nothing to do with Zimmerman--he's just caught up in a PC world and now has to depend upon the justice system for fairness. I mean it's obvious that the media, and much of the public, is anything but fair. No, it is that so many Americans are willfully delusional in order to front some, I guess, political calculus.
I could agree if these people simply said that it is a tragedy that a mother and father no longer have a son to love. Or that 17 is just too young to die. Or any of a number of things which delve into the emotions of the issue. But the vast majority of those posting that Zimmerman is a racist and violent guy are doing so in spite of the many facts which argue to the contrary. You simply cannot say that Zimmerman was following Trayvon after the dispatcher (who Zimmerman had no legal duty to obey anyhow) said he didn't need to, and Zimmerman stopped. I mean, it's on tape people. And you simply cannot argue that Zimmerman was waving a gun around when there isn't a shred of evidence to support the claim, and when logic speaks against such an action (why would Trayvon continue to confront a man waving a gun at him?).
But there is so much more too. Not the least of which is this simple logical problem for the leftists (and yes, those who want Zimmerman to hang for this are, by and large, leftists): If Zimmerman's goal was to kill Trayvon, why in the world did he ever call the police in the first place? I mean, if Zimmerman is this racist vigilante you nuts claim he is, the last thing he would want to do is to create a taped record of the event. It would have been so much easier just to shoot Trayvon first, and then call 911, making whatever claim he thought necessary. Of course this didn't happen. Because Zimmerman is not the racist vigilante you must create in order to justify your own "short rope and a tall tree" mentality.
This is likely one of the easiest cases one can imagine for a lawyer to defend, but it clearly is tragic that a mother and a father will never be able to hug their boy again.
xrayspex, # 1.9, it is my understanding of the stand-your-ground law, that if a shooter says it is self-defense, that the police must accept that without question.
(I guess it only applies if a firearm is involved. If you punch some one out who is threatening you, that is assault and battery on your part. So always be sure to shoot first)
M.R. Chase
Pure drivel !
In my opinion this is how all of this was blown out of proportion.
News story breaks of Trayvon's death. Media sees pictures and assumes white guy killed black kid. Media doesnt realize that cute 13 year old pictures arent reality.
Democratic Party gets ahold of story and believes they have something that would torpedo the NRA. Media runs story that Zimmerman was running around with a tec 9 submachine gun. Obama says Trayvon could be my son.
Three days later media is exposed for the profit hungry politics meddling parasites that they are. 1 week later tec 9 becomes kel-tec 9mm. Yesterday Zimmerman had made 20 calls to police profiling black men. Today it is 4 calls.
I believe one of the reasons Trayvon's parents demanded full disclosure is because they didnt know the facts that have been presented today. Other then the trademark deal on Trayvon's name, the parents have been open minded about the whole situation. I imagine they would considering they know their son better than any of us.
you didn't read the article, the police officers established that trayvon WAS running in the direction of his father's house, how do you suppose he ambushed zimmerman. we know trayvon did not ambush him on the way to his truck because he was still on the phone with 911 after the operator's warning. AFTER he hung up with 911, he got back out of the truck to pursue trayvon. then there is the girlfriend that heard zimmerman confronting trayvon.
I just can't comment on this anymore....Zimmerman has a broken nose and a 17 year old is dead. Who got the raw end of this deal, regardless of the reason.
The Stand Your Ground Law simply means you don't have to take an opportunity to walk away from a confrontation.
It is the Laws of Self Defence that really matter & in the USA you can shoot someone to protect yourself from serious bodily harm. GZ has injury evidence of serious bodily harm & witnesses that TM was bounding him.
All the facts that matter are that TM injured GZ, was beating him & GZ pulled his gun & shot him.
Free Zimmerman!
Where can we get T-shirts and bumper stickers with that slogan?
Ed,
Are you suggesting that while running away from Zimmerman he realized that his house was somehow in the opposite direction and decided to run back towards the person he ran away from?
Really?
When the police say he was heading in the general direction of his dad's fiances house it means from the point of contact. Not from where Zimmerman stopped pursuing.
45Charlie,
Considering Trayvon, the 17 year old, was bashing Zimmerman's head into the pavement, and went for the gun when discovered in a holster(per the statement proven by lie detector and recreated), when do you suppose that Trayvon would of stopped assaulting George Zimmerman? Once he had the gun? Once Zimmerman wasnt breathing?
And George Zimmerman deserves to die because Trayvon put his hoodie up, and ran instead of stopping and identifying himself. Beyond Trayvon attacking Zimmerman, running away was the main cause of the teens death.
It is why I shake my head at the liberal position that States cant pass laws that require people to show ID when required. Can I march on Washington because cops want my ID and my breath or blood at a roadblock?
This is not racist, just reality.
Be you of any race please take a trip to Atlanta GA. Visit the GA Tech campus and walk towards the south west in the direction of Techwood Homes. Please make this trip after 1 am. Please make sure you poll the "kids" that come and collect what you have. If you are female you will get a more personal introduction.
If you dont believe me please Google search Georgia Tech violent crimes in 2012, or 2011, etc.
Im sure you can get strong armed by many races in this area but the point is the age of the assailants.
"Kids", I watched the f'n movie.
I am a security officer for a homeowners association. I have confronted many people who looked out of place. No they were not all black. They have been many races. If I questioned that person and then that person attacked me and I incurred the injuries that Zim had then I would shoot and kill that person. Yes he could have gone for his gun. Then Zim could have pushed him back and then drew his weapon and shot him. The article talks about the intermediate distance. What they left out was the powder burns and stippling. That can only happen at a very short distance. Intermediate just means that the gun was not in contact and it was not far away.
What we do not know because no evidence has been released that shows exactly what happened is if Zim was walking away or not. If he was still following him and started the fight then he is at fault. If he was walking away and Martin went after him and started the fight then Zim should walk.
Neither of these people were innocent like the media wants us to think about Martin. Both sides made mistakes. What matters is who started the fight. This is a very sad situation that could have been avoided by both sides. Zim could have stayed in his truck. Martin could have called 911 not his girlfriend. He also could have headed straight to his fathers girlfriends house to get away from Zim. Both sides are at fault and both sides are innocent. The only way to end this is to figure out who started the fight. I dont know if any evidence can prove that with out any doubt.
As to the President. He should not have said anything. Yes all he did was show sympathy to the family. By doing that he basically said that he was on their side. We all thought the same thing when he said that. Us that didn't like it said that he was influencing the people against Zim, and the people who like it cheered and said maybe now that the President said that something will get done.
45charley, when you have a logical argument or care to make in intelligible counter point I'll be happy to engage in a conversation. I made logical observations summed up by my opinion. Zimmerman will remain alive while Martin can never tell his story...as he is DEAD. And it's not "drivel", it's good use of language to express my points and feelings. Please learn the difference.
DP-1888706, You ask for "proof" that Zimmerman only called in "suspicious" persons when they happened to be black. Police reports HAVE proven that. It was one of the first reliable facts that came to light in this mess. How did Martin get on top? I can only speak for myself, but when I am unarmed and feel threatened I WILL take the initiative. Most people (in my own admittedly limited scope of experience) truly intending violence do so because they feel for some reason the odds favor them. If suddenly confronted by a person obviously willing to defend him or her self many attackers will break off. I think the true story lies between the two (more DRIVEL...or WOULD if Martin could TELL his side)...Martin turned around to confront someone he felt threatened by and Zimmerman, gaining courage from knowing he had the gun, did something to make Martin feel further threatened. (FYI when I feel threatened and am carrying my sidearm I make MORE of an attempt to avoid the confrontation...I have no urge to be pushed to this last resort). Lastly, no, you are right, the dispatcher did not ORDER him to do anything, but when a cop "advises" you to do something common sense dictates you do it. I'm willing to almost bet you and I see eye to eye on many points here from "Stand Your Ground" NOT being responsible for this death to Second Amendment rights...but over all I can not agree with selective use of "facts" (I put it in quotes not to doubt YOU but in doubt of media reporting).
/DRIVELOFF
All over these posts I hear nothing but, "If TM did this, if GZ did that, then this wouldn't have happened. If he was on the ground. If he stopped and turned, if he pursued."
You know what if is? Reasonable doubt.
The prosecution overcharged on this case and it's going to cost them an acquittal. Murder 2 is unprovable at this point. They can't prove Zimmerman's story false. That's nearly the textbook definition of reasonable doubt. They should have gone for Man 2 or criminally negligent homicide. Or added those as lesser included charges. I think Zimmerman is more culpable than he or a lot of people think, but he did not commit the crime that the other side thinks, either. The left wants to convict him of a capital crime and the right wants to give him a medal when what really happened is tragic, and a crime, but nothing worthy of the lynching most of you want.
Chad,
Im not sure if you read this latest news but Scabasteve provided the info. I checked it and it is true. The time line provided by the state has Zimmerman's 911 call when you can hear him state he disengaged and was moving towards his vehicle to await the Police officer. In that call you can clearly hear him stop running, say "ok" to dispatch and then thats it. The shooting occurred a little under 1 minute 30 seconds after he hung up.
Because the scene of the crime occurred near his car and between the houses that he was walking through, Zimmerman wasnt chasing down Trayvon. Trayvon came back around and attacked Zimmerman.
Why? That is the question we should all be asking ourselves. What would possess anyone to get in any close proximation to someone I was running from. If it was Friday the 13th and Zimmerman was Jason, I would be screaming, "No you stupid kid, the other way!!!!"
At the end of the day something made Trayvon go back and take a chance at Zimmerman instead of heading back to home base. Hopefully we will find out what that trigger was.
Anthony I agree that Zim was heading back to his vehicle and I heard the same thing on the tapes but I dont think you will find any rock solid evidence on who started the fight. That was my main point. Of course when in doubt you have to let Zim go.
What bothers me the most is how easy I could end up in this situation. The only advantage I have is that I wear a uniform and you can see my gun on my hip. Hopefully this will keep someone who is mad from attacking me because I wanted to know what they were up to in the area I protect.
Chad,
I have no doubt that you have never been chased by someone with a radio but while I was in the military I had the experience of war games. Believe me. If someone was following you and talking like ZImmerman was on the phone, Trayvon heard it.
Ok once everyone's goose bumps have gone down and you face realization please realize that simple truth.
Why did Trayvon come back towards Zimmerman? Because Trayvon heard Zimmerman talking to the 911 operator.
Yep.
Go experiment. Run away from your buddy, even trying to talk lightly on a cell phone, at 50 meters at 10:30 pm in a quiet area.
I wonder if Trayvon's girlfriend could hear what ZImmerman was saying while in pursuit of Trayvon?
I just realized that. Hmm. You would have to imagine that if Trayvon was close to ZImmerman when he got off the cellphone, Trayvon was close enough to hear it also. Crazy. Thanks everyone for tonight's novice detectives class.
A scuffle does not justify shooting and killing another person. If this logic was true then any scuffle any person, child, man or woman, were to incur deadly force would be an everyday occurrence. Now for the THC level in Martin's blood does not prove anything other than he had the munchies provided the blood was drawn from an organ or vein. Zimmerman got into something or someone that he could not physically handle, panicked and shot Martin point blank. Now Zimmerman was on drug treatment for anxiety which would say he was having mental problems that could be a determining factor in his actions. The bottom line is if Zimmerman had ceased and desisted like he was advised to do this would not have happened and Martin would have been home in his father's girlfriend's home in this community and we would not be having this discussion today and both would be alive today. Zimmerman made a bad decision that will cost him dearly as he will not get away with murdering an unarmed young man. Zimmerman will plea out his case and serve 10 years or maybe 15 for his deed. Actually Zimmerman was mentally impaired the day he began taking anxiety medication and should not have been carrying a concealed weapon nor holding a permit to carry. There were many lines crossed on this case.
Hi Ed Johnson,
But for the fact that not a single assertion you've made has any facts which back it up you have a great post. Heck, who needs facts anyhow?
Marijuana causes paranoia. That is the last piece of the puzzle.
I bet they come up with this scenario within 3 days.
Trayvon was stoned and heard Zimmerman talking to 911. He panic'd an decided to knock out ZImmerman and then run home. No one would be the wiser. Unfortunately ZImmerman has a gun. Trayvon panics and the worst possible situation happens.
It even makes sense.
Gee, Roy Wilson, I wonder under what system of laws one gets to engage in a fist fight, and then, when you are losing, draw a gun and shoot your opponent. George Zimmerman may have been taken a beating. But the last I heard head lacerations and a broken nose are not life threatening injuries.
Oh, yeah, what does the THC-levels in Trayvon's blood at the time of his death have to do with justifying George Zimmerman's use of deadly force?
Does Florida's "Stand Your Ground Law" entitle you to shoot anybody who has been smoking weed?
I'm not going to assume George Zimmerman is or is not guilty. But on the basis of publicly release information, the shooting certainly appears unjustifiable, at least from a moral and common-sense basis, if not under Florida's rather odd legal system.
Intellect,
They have shown and proven that Zimmerman stated that Trayvon attacked him and during the struggle reached for his gun. They performed lie detector tests and had him recreate the scenario a few times.
I have no doubt that Trayvon outclassed ZImmerman, but unless Zim could fake a stress analysis test, he told the truth about what lead up to the death.
The only pieces left are what possessed Trayvon to make such a bad decision.
Zim was taking a drug that is commonly use to help you sleep. Yes it is also used to treat anxiety does not mean that he had anxiety.
A theory I have is that Martins girlfriend asked him over the phone are you going to let him punk you like that. No this young man who was on his way to being a thug felt he had to prove himself. Do a google search for his twitter posts and what his friends and family posted and you will see what this kid was really like.
Before I was relying on one of my empoyees scenario that his girlfriend egged him on. I am now 90% convinced that it was paranoia over hearing Zimmerman talking to the 911 operator.
If Trayvon was completely out of earshot and managed to come back within a minute and a half then he wanted to jump Zimmerman.
Physics does not allow another scenario.
Sorry racists. This is not Zimmerman wanting to kill a black kid. Please quit trying to make it that.
If you were as close as most of you think ZImmerman was to Trayvon why didint Trayvon realize that his attacker was talking to 911.
Did you cough cough intelligent people hear all of the 911 tapes. How many times do you tink Trayvon must of heard Zimmerman talking to 911. Does it sound like he is talking to the KKK like many of our posters suggest?
Check Mate.
If I was Zimmerman's lawyer I would already have him off.
25Walker, you should be ashamed of yourself.
MSNBC is reporting the prosecutions perspective. What do yo think the prosecution is going to say: George Zimmerman: May be Innocent After All. LMAO…..Wise up!
You wrote: “Zimmerman's father is a judge.”
And then you burden the readers with this shameful piece of pretentious propaganda: “George Zimmerman does not have a single reason for not knowing what the definition and essence of murder is”. If you have any verifiable proof that George’s father took George into his law library and inculcated him with legal wisdom, then please present it for discussion. Otherwise, you’re full of crap.
FYI: George Zimmerman’s father is not a judge in terms of judicial expertise. He was APPOINTED a magistrate in the Commonwealth of Virginia. He qualified because he had a bachelor’s degree. In Virginia, in January, 1974, the office of local Justice of the Peace was abolished and the position was replaced by County Magistrate. No legal knowledge required (Magistrate System-http://www.courts.state.va.us/courtadmin/aoc/djs/programs/mag/home.html ).
Your characterization of George Zimmerman as: “the ego-thriving self-appointed Rambo”, is just another example of your smug, self-serving propaganda. You have no supportable evidence that shows that Mr. Zimmerman was ego-thriving, and if you paid any attention to the details of the case, you’d already know that Mr. Zimmerman was appointed to the Neighborhood Watch by The Retreat at Twin Lakes homeowners association, and therefore bestowed nothing upon himself.
You wrote: “Logically or with humanity, how can you blame Trayvon's parents for Zimmerman's aberrant and deadly personality?” Are you a Board Certified Psychiatrist? Do you have a Ph.D in psychology? If you have neither of these qualifications, then you are not qualified to analyze and diagnose Mr. Zimmerman’s personality as aberrant or deadly. If fact you aren’t qualified to offer a lay-opinion on the subject.
FYI: Anyone can argue that Mr. Martin’s parents share blame in his death, in the same ignorant way that you argue that Mr. Zimmerman’s parents share the blame for his actions.
Your willingness to sling mud, make claims with no proof, exaggerate the obvious and exercise your pomposity in public, does not give you license to revile Patriot Chic or any other reader for expressing her opinions.
Anthony,
Remember many of these people who think we are racist are the same people who think we are raciest if we talk bad about the president.
Now the authorities are giving in to pressure from the pinko left, scared of n#$$@% rioting, so they are throwing Zimmerman under the bus....
Oh ya, as far as the headline goes all I can hear is Bill Engvall saying "hears your sign". Of course it was avoidable. He could have not done a thing when he saw Martin. He could have gotten home 10 minutes latter. He could have stayed in his truck. All of the above and Martin would be alive and Zim would not be in trouble. That headline is just stupid.
I dont talk bad about our dear leader.
I know but you know what I am talking about....lol
Chad,
One thing is for sure. If George Zimmerman ever gets the freedom to drive to Target and he sees a suspicious individual... Im sure he will not look twice. After this episode I would imagine many people that would investigate suspicious activity will turn a blind eye.
That is very true.
America Today wrote:
"One thing is for sure. If George Zimmerman ever gets the freedom to drive to Target and he sees a suspicious individual... Im sure he will not look twice."
And that would be a good thing seeing how Zimmerman is a vigilante who thinks every black male is suspicious looking and who is ready to confront them while armed.
So when the dispatcher said"we don't need you to do that", Zimmerman answered "ok"...are you saying what the dispatcher really said , was "Go shoot that guy"?..............Duh...as if....Well the dispatcher did not say don't!.....DUH!......so in your little minds you really think "we don't need you to do that" means go shoot the kid......No one is buying this spin...no one.....repeat it often...and only nut jobs think this means go get em cowboy!
Zimmerman claimed to be the screamer? reallly???? Gve Trayvons dad the same gun, then let him stalk Zimmerman while he eats Skittles and drinks ice tea, then record Zimmermans voice screaming help and match it to the 911 call where we hear Trayvon screaming.
Here's a repost especially for those who collapsed it.
I'm still firm on the facts that Zimmerman:
1. was following someone he did NOT see commit any crime.
2. Was told to stand down and wait for police, but he chose to ignore it.
3. Was carrying a gun and pursuing a "suspect", when every neighborhood watch
program calls for only calling and reporting to police.
4. Had a history of violence(assault on a cop, and domestic violence), yet never went to trial
for any of them. Maybe because daddy judge pulled some strings.
It points to Zimmerman being guilty of manslaughter at the very least.
And no, Obama didn't make a statement regarding the criminal case(or lack of at the time) against Zimmerman.
Obama just showed sympathy to the parents, as they were grieving for the loss of a son.
BTW, just because Martin smoked marijuana, doesn't make him a "junkie".
That's like calling cigarette smokers crackheads.
Wait so let me get this..... losing a fist fight that YOU started, is ground to pull a gun? LOL
You can argue till youre blue in the face... NO ONE knows WHAT happened AT moment of contact. No one knows if Tray just swung, no one knows if George Grabbed him first.
But what we DO know is... GEORGE broke 2 neighborhood watch protocols. He carried a GUN, and he Chased and engaged. He followed the kid IN his car for several blocks in the dark, the kid was going home, and George got OUT of his car to pursue him further. George caught up with him, and through his own accounts (the story he told his family and "friends" to parade on national TV) began to question Trayvon about who he was, and what was he doing there.
Sure breaking those protocols are not in the LAW as illegal... however.. you neither have a RIGHT to do them. Just because something isnt Illegal, doesnt mean you CANT be held responsible.
The whole situation would have been avoidable had George did what he was SUPPOSED to do. He played Vigilante... which itself is illegal.
If a strange man followed you at night, got out of his vehicle and chased you (on the tape he was breathing heavy clearly out of breath, THAT is how the operator knew he was pursuing Tray) then caught up with you in the dark, and began interrogating you..... how does that not create a situation where you are in fear?? Just because George LOST the altercation he STARTED (altercations start before punches you know...) with MINOR injuries, doesnt give him the RIGHT to kill.
G Zimmerman chose to follow Trayvon Martin despite the instruction from the dispatcher. I can't believe some of the viner's weak rational that claimed that Zimmerman did stop follow Trayvon.... Hmm, if Zimmerman did stop following, then how in the world did they meat up?
As to the stupid comments that Zimmerman's injuries is the reason why he used his gun? Hmmm, it was George Zimmerman who chose the confrontation with a 17 year old, most likely because George Zimmerman felt he outclassed Trayvon (physically). Because ZERO RATIONAL peole will confront suspects who are substantially larger than themselves without a defensive weapon. George choose to carry his gun to the confrontation. We don't know if he had it with him during the confrontation or did he go back to the car to retrieve the gun (which is even worse). The bottom line is that Geoge Zimmerman chose the confrontation.
Now, if George is getting beaten up by Trayvon while George chose to have the physical confrontation is not the fault of Trayvon. It is still George's initiation or start toward the conflict. Sorry, George may have fired his gun because he was on the bottom. However, it does not mean Geoge was in the right, because George started the fight... Especially, when there wasn't the need for a physical confrontation. More importantly, a physical confrontation would not have solved any problem. Had it been a real gang member, do one think George would have scared away the Gang member? Or the gang member would have retaliated in kind with other gang members??? Ignorance and incompetence are not excuses.
Finally, I am really pissed at idiots claiming that the facts will back George Zimmerman's claims to the case??? HMMM, so please tell me what exactly are TRAYVON MARTIN's claims to his clase??? Some of you are seriously hyprocrites who are simply arguing for argument's sake...
Anthony:
I have never conducted that experiment. But the results that you state are quite interesting. This differs from my previous suspicions that Martin thought some ***** might rat him out to the cops. If you are correct, he knew that Zimmerman was actively ratting him out to the cops. If also means that, were Martin innocent like the lynch mob claims he would have felt safe going home because he knew all Zimmerman would do is give the address to the police. As long as he doesn't have any incriminating evidence in his room, that's a big "so what?"
------------------------------
I neither wish to hang Zimmerman nor give him a medal. Some of his actions may have been unwise. But ultimately, he shot in self defense. I do not agree with the lynch mob and the haters that want his head.
what is even more strange... is that some of the George Zimmerman backers swears that OJ is the killer, and wishes to hang that SOB even after OJ Simpson was found NOT GUILTY by his peers!!!! Please tell us how one stalker is different than another? Please tell us how one vigilante is different from another?
Some of you have things up so far that it is absurd... George Zimmerman complied with the police dispatcher AND NOT FOLLOWED Trayvon??? SERIOUSLY???? NOW YOU'RE FIGHTING FOR JEWISH AND LATINO RIGHTS???? REALLY???
You know, I'd just like to point one thing out. It's the only thing I'm going to point out. Anyone who's here backing Zimmerman and claiming there is a "lack of evidence to support Zimmerman starting the fight, calling Martin names, etc." Of course there's a lack of evidence. The only person who would've been able to refute Zimmerman's claims is dead. Makes for kind of a one-sided story. Thanks for playing. Bye.
The story of the little sweetheart just passing through is starting to fall apart. Probably trespassing to begin with. Traces of illegal drugs in a bag at school. Illegal drug in his system. His own dad said that wasn't him yelling for help on the tape. Doctor and police reports surface showing Zimmerman was attacked or had been in a fight. Gold toothed thug pictures not shown. They still keep calling Zimmerman white. Sure doesn't look to white to me. They must be trying to turn this into a black against white thing. Hey media! Wake up! He's Mexican!
25Walker,
I am defending no one. I am arguing against unsupported allegations, and poorly reasoned claims. You, on the other hand, can not make these same arguments.
George Zimmerman has not yet been brought to trial. In the United States, every citizen is considered innocent until proven guilty by a jury of his peers; therefore it has not been proven that Mr. Martin was murdered and that George Zimmerman is a murderer. I will not accept your bias as fact.
Your self-righteousness is disgusting. What faction are you pandering to? If you had any evidence of obfuscation or deception you would have presented it.
If you don’t have information, you invent it out of whole cloth. Nowhere in any of my comments do I claim to be “a person of faith”.
I have never said anything to give anyone the impression that I’m a Christian.
In my opnion, everyone on here who feels that GZ had a right to kill that young man, feels just the way GZ does, "they always get away with it" it doesn't matter what is right or wrong. They feel that blacks don't deserve anything that they can't have including justice. That is why they get so angry about the use of the N word...ownership. Tulsa, rosewood...etc, they don't deserve it. It's something we don't have, so they can't have it and will take it away if possible...only now a days it's getting a little bit harder. It's called entitlement and only the select can have that. Other people are talking about riots...you know they want that to happen, just so they can say "I told you so." In the words of Jake from the movie "A Time to Kill" now close your eyes and imagine that this young man is white...and that you are a mother and father...tell me what you feel. Entitlement is the destroyer. Treyvon by any other color would deserve justice. People know what's in their hearts and they know the truth about themselves...they will use any excuse but the truth. Some people just don't want to look deep down in their souls and find out what's really going on. "To Thine Self Be True" only then will the healing begin.
I think this speaks volumes. I remember not to long ago much was being made about how he waited until asked what race the suspect was but it was never said what percentage where black. Well here it is. They were all black as I suspected when that info wasn't given at the time.
So if the Book Jacket stating that Barack Obama was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia from a book from 1991 was just an editorial error, then where did the get the information that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii? So the editor just assumed he was from Kenya then and not from any other nation. Seems this error is a very convenient one. Maybe this is part of the reason the college transcripts haven't been released.
As far as Zimmerman goes only those with all the information will be able to make a just decision. In this day and age it is not the medias job to give the truth so much, but to shape it.
45charlie,
Arkius has not stated any facts.
In a previous post, he mentioned the Lord.
There is nothing godly about attempts to buttress Zimmerman's lies so that this killer can walk.
Arkius is absolutely wrong.
Courts rule on the evidence that is presented before the court.
Some cases have a substantial number of facts presented before the jury. Other cases have a significant amount of circumstantial evidence in the court records. In the Trayvon Martin murder case, significant evidence is being presented that points to Zimmerman unjustifiably taking this Trayvon's life.
It is amazing that there are so many sick people that are trying to justify this killing.
It is astounding that some people believe that they should have the "legal right" to snuff out the lives of certain people.
Prosecutor, Angela Cory, is trying this murder case, not Alan Dershowitz.
Back to Akius...
He has been debated.
With malfeasance, he casts doubts about Zimmerman's deadly intent. He gives George every "pass." He degrades Trayvon and racial stereotyping swirls around his "sly dance." He states that he is being objective. It is clear that he wants Zimmerman to walk free.
Most definitely, it is his right to state what he wants to state.
However, Arkius is the worse of chameleons, and only God can save him.
Let’s change this to reflect what they didn’t want you to know and see if it changes anything when you put the shoe on the other foot
To all you folks out there who think Zimmerman did nothing wrong I ask you this: You're walking home from 7-11 after smoking a joint and a car starts following you slowly down the street, freaked out yet? (marijuana does cause paranoia) No? Then the car stops and a guy you don't know gets out and starts following you. How about now? (marijuana does cause paranoia) Then the guy asks you what you are doing. What would you think his intentions were? (marijuana does cause paranoia) (perhaps the fact that he was already suspended from school for drugs and didn’t want to face the police again or have his parents find out) So he jumps the Hispanic guy while he is walking back to his car and has his back turned and starts beating the @!$%# out of him…Race aside, if anyone had the right to stand their ground it was Zimmerman. What would you say if Zimmerman happened to be white instead of Hispanic (as the media reported)? Would you still so vehemently stand up for Martin? Racist much?
Putting it from the other side changes things and yes, you are a racist! If my kid was suspended from school for drugs, he certainly would not be permitted to walk to the store for candy! He would be grounded to his room! If the parents had spent as much energy as they have on this case on parenting, their son would be alive! I hope Zimmerman sues them for every dime they made on the death of their son! DISPICABLE PARENTS!!!!
There were 12 recent break ins in the neighborhood and all the reported perpetrators where young black males. So, who do you think he should be suspicious about? Asian grandmothers?
CaptRon - It doesn't matter if Trayvon was someone who was going to commit a breakin (not that I think he was going to). The point is, that if Zimmerman had stayed in his car like he was asked to, nothing would have happened. A neighborhood watch is just that - a watcg. Report suspicious activity & let the police do their jobs. They are not supposed to confront the "suspicious" person. Trayvon had as much right to "stand his ground" as Zimmerman did - maybe more, since Zimmerman was following him.
For those who say Trayvon was not a child at 17 -he was not legally an adult and therefore was still a child.
For those who keep going on about the drugs - please re-read the story. There was a trace amount of pot. It has been stated that the amount was so minor that it would not have caused impairment - a drug that should probably be legal and that most high school students have tried at least once.
It doesn't matter if he was suspended from school; expelled from school; had served time in juvie; was a drug dealer; or even a murderer. The whole thing could have been avoided if Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle as he was asked to do by the dispatcher.
Yes, FedupwithFed, and if you child subsequently got out of the house and was found walking a city street, you want him to suffer summary execution at the hands of a vigilante, correct?
As to the rest of your story line, which piles supposition on top of supposition, it is short on facts and long on assumption.
Paranoia is not a common effect of casual marijuana use. It is a rare effect of chronic, heavy use.
We have only George Zimmerman's account to tell us that Trayvon Martin initiated the physical altercation, and thinking rationally, such an account does not make sense. If someone had accosted you at night, on a city street, but was now leaving, why would you feel the need to re-establish contact and start a fight? (marijuana does not cause insensate violence)? Remember, Trayvon was on his way somewhere. He was not just hanging out on the street.
If Trayvon Martin grabbed for George Zimmerman's gun, forcing Zimmerman to draw and fire the weapon, why does the autopsy show that the gun was fired at "intermediate range"?
There are just way too many holes in the idea that Martin was fearing for his life and stalked by Zimmerman. Mainly, Zimmerman left his vehicle (before the 911 operator discussed the matter with him by the way), THEN was told "you don't need to do that," then he says "okay" and informs the operator that Martin had ran and he lost sight of him. At that point you can hear him stop running, and catch his breath, and then he is calm. He then proceeds to stay on the phone with the operator for just over 80 seconds. Almost a minute and a half of time, that we know without doubt, between Martin realizing someone was following him, and Zimmerman getting off of the phone with the operator. Looking at maps of the neighborhood and area of the incident, there is just no way that Martin couldn't have been home, back in safty inside, well before Zimmerman ever even hung up the phone. Martin was 17 years old, 6'2", and an athlete, unless Zimmerman strapped himself to a jetpack after hanging up the phone, there is just no way he could have caught up with Martin with a minute and a half head start if Martin actually feared for himself and ran away. That assumes there is even a chance Zimmerman could have caught up with Martin in a footrace from an even dead start, which I doubt.
Again, if he wanted to run away he could have been back inside his house watching the basketball game telling his dad some wierd man was following him. But he didnt, why? Looking at the map of the area, the fight and shooting happened between where Zimmerman stopped following Martin, and where he truck was located, and the first 911 call from a witness happened within 90 seconds of Zimmerman's 911 call ending, meaning the fight started within a very short time of Zimmerman's 911 call ending, and very close to where Zimmerman first followed Martin, not far away down the street towards Martin's residence for the evening. To anyone just looking at the facts that seems to indicate that for some reason Martin did not run away, and seems to have doubled back to the area he ran away from. So why? He had a minute and a half head start on Zimmerman to get away, and he chose to stay in/return to the general vicinity where he was being followed after intially running away after being followed. Why?
I think it is interesting that about a month and a half ago the comments on here were about 90% in favor fully of Martin, and in full lynch mob against Zimmerman. And just a few of us, 10% or so who had looked at the facts independantly of the hype said that at the very least the media was skewing the facts of the story significantly to fit a racism story line. Then sure enough over the course of weeks more and more of the "evidence" purported by the media came out as fabricated or edited to fit their narrative, and as more actual legal facts of the case have came out we get a picture painted of a man who was trying to help a community riddled with crime, who ended up in a regrettable situation, who acted in self defense, with no racial motivation at all, who has been 110% cooperative with police and the investigation, who was framed by the media from the start. Now I would say, conservatively, there is a 60%/40% split on here of people who think Zimmerman is likely innocent, and certainly was maligned by the media, and certainly not guilty of murder, and the minority of you who get on here every day and copy and paste the same racist hate messages against Zimmerman that you were posting two months ago, acting as if no facts of the case exist and we still believe those BS doctored 911 tapes the media played are real.
I am glad most people are catching on to the media circus this event has turned into.
Ohh, and for the people saying "what would have happened if a black man shot a white/hispanic man instead," do a search for Daniel Adkins. In April he was walking his dog, and was shot dead by a 22 year old who almost hit him leaving a Taco Bell Drive through. The shooter, name unreleased, claimed he thought Adkins was wielding a metal pipe and was going to attack him, so he shot him from the comfort of his car. It turns out Mr. Adkins only had a leash in his hand attached to his yellow lab. The shooter, again unnammed, was released without any conviction. In this case the shooter was black, and they refuse to even release his name, unlike Zimmerman, and the MSM won't even post a story about the situation, and Mr. Adkins was Hispanic, and his only crime was almost being ran over by the man who then shot him. Where is the justice for Mr. Adkins?
I have seen a lot of broken noses, I never seen on that looks like the photo here. The day after the shooting. But yet I read that his doctors report said that on Feb. 27 he say Zimmerman and he had a broken nose and two black eyes (which is typical of a broken nose) What's the story here? That Martin broke his nose on the night of the 26th and it didn't start to show until right before he entered the doctors office ?
I uncollapse one comment and it is followed by a long string of nothing but collapsed comments!
PEOPLE, JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T AGREE WITH SOMETHING SOMEONE SAID IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU GET TO COLLAPSE THEIR COMMENT!!!!! CUT IT OUT!
Newsvine really needs to change their peer rating system for their forum. This is retardedly absurd.
Allison-467021
Zimmerman's 2 small cuts were just minor cuts nothing major. If he were running (chasing Trayvon) isn't it possible that he slipped and fell?? And let's not forget Zimmerman is being medicated for anxiety.
@Mike, don't you think that in the 21st century that ANYONE is allowed to walk down a street? The guy is nuts afterall.
What's wrong Allison, were those cuts just not big enough to suit your liking? Isn't it possible that Zimmerman is telling the truth, or do you think Tyrone was justified for beating the crap out of him because Tyrone was being followed and questioned as to why he was walking around in hoodlum clothing in a neighborhood where he didn't live?
Yep, it's the 21st. century alright, you are now safe to walk the streets of Harlem this evening or you might want to try scenic downtown Chicago. Or, if your feeling tuff, and I know you are Allison, because that was such a small laceration Zimmerman got, and you were quick to jump on it, you can have a nice stroll down Hollywood Blvd. No need for person protection devices, there will be more than enough Hoodie wearing scumbags out there to assist you with your heavy purse and weighty jewelry.... after all, it is the 21st century. Have a happy stroll.
I agree Nantucket, it really makes it difficult to have a level headed discussion on here with everyone abusing the comment reporting system like that.
". .a police report that concluded "the encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman." Pretty much says it all, no? Zimmerman was acting out is fantasy of being a law enforcement officer and it blew up in his face.
The only really important question is: Who threw the first punch?
From the Autopsy, Treyvon's only injuries were a small cut on his left knuckle and the fatal gunshot would to the chest.
George Zimmerman's injuries were a closed fracture of the nose and a 1 inch cut on his head.
If George Zimmerman hit Treyvon, why doesn't Treyvon have any injuries consistent with being punched?
The physical evidence supports Zimmerman's story that Treyvon was the attacker. Unless anyone can come up with an alternate explanation for how both parties were injured?
frances, post #1.6
So I guess that evidence does not matter to you. It seems the only thing that matters to you is that guns are BAD. The fact is all the evidence points to self-defense. If Zimmerman wanted to kill this kid, as you say, he would have to have had his gun out long before the physical struggle. Zimmerman’s injuries have been shown and backed up by a doctor. Martin being shoot at point blank range along with the injuries Zimmerman had suggests that he only pulled the gun after the scuffle, or he wouldn't have the injuries. Then there is the only witness that says the same thing that Zimmerman has been saying since day 1. Neither Zimmerman’s nor the witness has changed their story.
It is Libs like you that think guns are bad and we should ban them in America. Guns are not sold to criminals anyway so you would be taking the rights out of law abiding citizens that go thru background checks and leave only the criminals with guns.
I don’t want to live in that America, where I cannot defend myself if I am attacked.
Still waiting for MSNBC to use a more recent photo of Treyvon...
bobbski
All the report says is that it could have been avoided; it is not a crime to follow someone. The police where not there when it this shooting happened, so it is only their opinion after the fact. It was Martin that attacked, it is nice you try and switch the attacker into the victim.
NONE OF US WERE THERE SO WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED BUT A REASONABLE PERSON CAN SEE FROM THE EVIDENCE IT WAS SELF DEFENCE, AS IT IS NOT A CRIME TO FOLLOW SOMEONE. WHEN THE POLICE TOLD ZIMMERMAN TO STOP FOLLOWING MARTIN HE SAID OK.
If you are following me, and I turn around and shoot you, I am standing my ground.
If you are following me and I turn around and face you, then if you shoot me, you are standing your ground.
Standing your ground only applies if you shoot, not if you simply stand your ground unarmed.
@ David Walker
And you know all this how? Suppose Zimmerman had just been a person walking in the same direction as Martin, would that warrant Martin to confront Zimmerman, if that is what happened? Would that warrant Martin to beat Zimmerman or do you or any of us really know what happened? We judge people by facts not guesses. When was the last time you where out walking and had the person in front of you turn around and ask why you where following them? If you've ever been followed you would know you don't stop and confront your nightmare unless you're on drugs or just stupid, in this case both. Why aren't this kids parents being held accountable for his actions? If I was George I'd be looking into suing them for their son's hospital and now court costs not to mention defamation of character. This whole thing has run its course and it's time everyone realizes stupidity can get you killed!
25 Walker,
You wrote: “In a previous post, he mentioned the Lord.” Please provide a citation and a quote to support your claim. According to your bizarre logic, mentioning the lord makes me a Christian. If I mention Mario Andretti, does that make me a race car driver?
You wrote: “There is nothing godly about attempts to buttress Zimmerman's lies so that this killer can walk.” You beg the question. You are assuming that George Zimmerman’s statements are lies. He has not yet been to trial. His statements have not yet been examined by a jury of his peers. He is innocent until proven guilty. God has nothing to do with it. What have you got against the American judicial system 25Walker?
You wrote: “It is amazing that there are so many sick people that are trying to justify this killing.” You need to get over yourself. People who have an opinion that is different than yours aren’t sick.
45Charlie wrote: “Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law Prof said from the beginning there is no Probable Cause to arrest GZ.” 25Walker, you are truly despicable. Charlie’s comments clearly are in reference to events after the shooting, and not who’s prosecuting the case. He never said Dershowitz was trying the case. Why do you feel it necessary to distort his meaning?
You wrote: “Back to Akius...He has been debated.” You have failed to debate me at every turn. In stead, you prefer to distort my meaning, like you did with 45Charlie, and fabricate outright lies.
You wrote: “With malfeasance, he casts doubts about Zimmerman's deadly intent.”
With ignorance and a lynch-mob mentality, you would deny George Zimmerman a trial by a jury of his peers. You would deny him a fair trial in a court of law. You would deny him justice by insisting that he be subjected to some absurd biblical nonsense that the entire American population doesn’t believe in. The malfeasance is yours. Stop acting like a back-woods witchdoctor and come into the modern world.
You wrote: ““He gives George every "pass."” I give George Zimmerman nothing. Your distortions and fabrications know no bounds. In my last post to you I said: “I am defending no one. I am arguing against unsupported allegations, and poorly reasoned claims.” I tell you in plain language what I am doing, and yet you need to lie and distort.
You are a contemptible liar.
Finally, you wrote: “However, Arkius is the worse of chameleons, and only God can save him.” God will save me from what? You should worry about yourself. According to the rules of your church, liars burn in hell. And that’s where you are right now. You have a tortured, twisted and sick mind. I will have nothing more to do with you.
Thank you for playing.
Good bye, loser.
Hayabusa,
You wrote: “Wait so let me get this..... losing a fist fight that YOU started, is ground to pull a gun?”
You also wrote: “You can argue till youre blue in the face... NO ONE knows WHAT happened AT moment of contact. No one knows if Tray just swung, no one knows if George Grabbed him first.”
Let’s play: What’s wrong with this picture. In the first quote, you beg the question. You assume that George Zimmerman started a fistfight. In the second quote you state that “no one knows what happened at moment of contact”. Do you see the problem? The problem is twofold: Contradiction and poor reasoning with information. How can you say that someone started a fight in one breath, and then with the next breath you say that no one can know for sure what happened? You can’t have it both ways. BTW, the caps are childish and unnecessary.
You wrote: “But what we DO know is... GEORGE broke 2 neighborhood watch protocols. He carried a GUN, and he Chased and engaged.” Sorry, we know no such thing.
To begin with, George Zimmerman was not on Neighborhood Watch duty the night of the shooting. In fact, he was on his way to a local Target store to do some shopping when he spotted a suspicious person on the grounds of the Retreat at Twin Lakes; he just happened to be carrying his weapon at the time (Barry, Kovaleski, et. al. Race, Tragedy and Outrage Collide After a Shot in Florida:April 1, 2012).
Next, you’re being Captain Contradiction again. You don’t know that George Zimmerman chased and engaged. In fact, the Neighborhood Watch manual allows Watch personnel to observe from a safe distance (ibid).
You wrote: “He followed the kid IN his car for several blocks in the dark, the kid was going home, and George got OUT of his car to pursue him further. George caught up with him, and through his own accounts (the story he told his family and "friends" to parade on national TV) began to question Trayvon about who he was, and what was he doing there.” You’re kidding, right? First, you claim that the readers will never know what happened, then you start quoting chapter and verse, and you can’t even get that correct. You can’t have it both ways. Pick one and go with it.
You wrote: “Sure breaking those protocols are not in the LAW as illegal... however.. you neither have a RIGHT to do them. Just because something isnt Illegal, doesnt mean you CANT be held responsible.” Dude, really? I’m embarrassed for you.
You wrote: “The whole situation would have been avoidable had George did what he was SUPPOSED to do. He played Vigilante... which itself is illegal.”
What was George supposed to do; you don’t explain? And then you beg the question…....again. You assume that George Zimmerman “played Vigilante”. By your own reasoning: How do you know if you weren’t there? In reality, he had every right as a member of the Neighborhood Watch and as a citizen of Sanford, Florida, USA, to protect his community if he had reasonable cause to believe it was threatened by an intruder. That is not vigilantism that is being a responsible citizen. FYI: Vigilantism is not illegal; it’s immoral.
You wrote: “If a strange man followed you at night, got out of his vehicle and chased you (on the tape he was breathing heavy clearly out of breath, THAT is how the operator knew he was pursuing Tray) then caught up with you in the dark, and began interrogating you..... how does that not create a situation where you are in fear??” You do not know that any of this information is accurate, because you weren’t there; remember?
You wrote: “Just because George LOST the altercation he STARTED (altercations start before punches you know...) with MINOR injuries, doesnt give him the RIGHT to kill.”
You’re begging the same question, all over again. You don’t know with certainty that George Zimmerman started the fight. You are assuming that his injuries are minor. And you are assuming that George Zimmerman believed that he had a right to kill.
Here are some tips: Write in Microsoft Word. Use Spell Check and Grammar Check. Don’t use serial periods and question marks to end a sentence. Don’t use caps for emphasis. Don’t emphasize. Check your writing for contradictions and assumptions, these two things seem to be a common thread in your writing.
Good luck.
dman,
You wrote: “Yes, FedupwithFed, and if your child subsequently got out of the house and was found walking a city street, you want him to suffer summary execution at the hands of a vigilante, correct?” You beg the question. You assume that Martin suffered “suffer summary execution at the hands of a vigilante”. If you have incontrovertible proof to support this biased claim, then please present it for debate.
You wrote: “As to the rest of your story line, which piles supposition on top of supposition, it is short on facts and long on assumption.” Glass house. Don’t throw stones.
You wrote: “Paranoia is not a common effect of casual marijuana use. It is a rare effect of chronic, heavy use.” This is a ridiculous claim on two counts.
First, if “paranoia is not a common effect of casual marijuana use”, and “it is a rare effect of chronic, heavy use”, then, by process of elimination, paranoia must be a product of intermediate use. If paranoia is a product of intermediate use, then why would intermediate use produce an effect that is not caused by more use? Wouldn’t “chronic, heavy use” consistently increase the effect? Your conclusion is non-sequitur.
Secondly, do you have the professional credentials to make the determinations that “paranoia is not a common effect of casual marijuana use; and that it is a rare effect of chronic, heavy use”? If you do not, then the readers have no reason to lend credence to your subjective opinion.
You wrote: “We have only George Zimmerman's account to tell us that Trayvon Martin initiated the physical altercation, and thinking rationally, such an account does not make sense. If someone had accosted you at night, on a city street, but was now leaving, why would you feel the need to re-establish contact and start a fight? (marijuana does not cause insensate violence)?”
Sorry, but your analogy of George Zimmerman's account is questionable, at best and biased at worst. George Zimmerman never claimed to initially “accost” anyone, and then break off contact only to re-establish it a short time later and start a fight. Again, you have not produced any professional credentials that would give you anything more than a user’s insight into the effects of marijuana, which are less than scientific and not credible.
Finally, you wrote: “If Trayvon Martin grabbed for George Zimmerman's gun, forcing Zimmerman to draw and fire the weapon, why does the autopsy show that the gun was fired at "intermediate range"?” There are three problems with this claim.
First, you don’t explain the correlation between Martin grabbing for Zimmerman’s weapon, Zimmerman drawing and firing the weapon, and the autopsy showing that the gun was fired from intermediate range. Without a correlation to show a relationship, they are just three unrelated variables.
Secondly, your claim is biased. You failed to mention that the article also mentions that:
Lab tests by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement's Orlando operations center concluded that residue tests on Martin's sweatshirt were "consistent with a contact shot" — that is, one in which the muzzle of the weapon is physically touching the victim.
Thirdly, you don’t tell the readers that intermediate range isn’t a constant, but a variable, i.e., it is a flexible distance from 0 to a maximum of 18 inches (Charlie Rose, Zimmerman atty: Don't judge by "piecemeal" evidence: May 18, 2012 7:54 AM). More importantly, you are quoting from the prosecutions discovery evidence only, which is particularly biased, because the defense has not yet responded.
Unfortunately for the readers, you have added nothing to the debate or to their knowledge base.
Jody::: Are you stupid or just dumb? PRESIDENT Obama said that if he had a son he would look like Trayvon.
I kinow he didn't mean it this way but President Obama has dark skin. He is married to a woman who has dark skin. What color would you expect his son to be? Purple? And President Obama has large ears-- and his son would probably have ears like his.
Susie,
As a sitting president Mr. Obama wears many hats.
He is the Chief Financial Officer. The Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, and the Chief Judicial Officer of the United States. In this last capacity, it is inappropriate for him to comment in any way, on any level on a matter still pending.
It is just plain legally wrong, and as a trained attorney he knows it. Anyone and everyone who is an attorney knows that he knew it was wrong to do so. The man is a constitutional lawyer, he is not a dumb-bell. He did it for political purposes. He is pandering for votes. It's cheap and it's crass and it looks like you're the only one he fooled with it.
So please don't accuse other people of being stupid or dumb when in fact it is you that doesn't get it.
It's like you're dragging three feet of toilet paper around on your heel at the Prom, and you're the only one that doesn't see it.
Arkius,
Your nefarious lies show abject desperation.
You have demonstrated that there are many mentally twisted and amoral people that abound. If not for the moral depravity that you and other sick people display, our citizens of good conscience who strive for fair justice would not be as enlightened about racial injustice.
Yes, you have served a purpose, quite well!
This says quite a bit about you.
Racial injustice and the social oppression is your God.
Only if the killer Zimmerman walks free, will you rest.
Arrogantly, you have forgotten 1 fact...the true God in the heavens will be your judge.
It is heartwarming to say that you do not have a pray.
It has been a pleasure...thank you for playing.
Arkius, you wrote:
(You were writing about the President of the United States when you referred to "he" in that first sentence.) I am sorry that you feel that way. I sure didn't feel that he was pandering for votes or cheap or crass. I felt that it was a statement of genuine compassion. I agree with Susie in this case. It seems that it wouldn't matter what President Obama did, you would look at it negatively. That often happens with people who are deeply against a political candidate.
In my opinion it is inappropriate to refer to people as stupid or dumb, or to call people losers or any other name. Think about what you are writing. Would you say this to someone's face? That's always a good way to judge whether one should write something on the net, too. I realize many people do not agree, but then, we have to start somewhere to regain some civility, and I believe that would be a good goal for all of us!
Lastly, thank you for the laugh about the toilet paper. While I disagree with your statement, I give you a great deal of credit for not swearing (or P$eudo-$wearing, as some do--who do they think they're fooling? None but the censors--what a great goal!). My mom always used to say that people who used bad language weren't smart enough to know other words to use to express their feelings. Oh, she didn't say that to others, but to her kids, to remind us that we could communicate very effectively without using inappropriate language.
It seems that we disagree on many points. That doesn't mean we can't learn from each other--or at least, it doesn't mean that I can't learn from you. Thanks again for the laugh--what great imagery!
Kirigami,
Apparently, you have completely missed my actual first sentence where I identify the person I’m talking about: “As a sitting president Mr. Obama wears many hats.”
Clearly, you have also missed the point of my comments. Whether or not it was a “statement of genuine compassion” is totally irrelevant. As a sitting president, Mr. Obama is the Chief Judicial Officer of the United States of America, and is prohibited by law, common sense and tradition against commenting on a case still pending before the courts (Pardon me if I don’t go crazy trying to find the exact citation for the legal statute in question).
You wrote: “I agree with Susie in this case. It seems that it wouldn't matter what President Obama did, you would look at it negatively.” Hogwash. You don’t know me and you don’t know my political affiliation; therefore, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
You wrote: “In my opinion it is inappropriate to refer to people as stupid or dumb, or to call people losers or any other name. Think about what you are writing. Would you say this to someone's face?” I have never called anyone stupid or dumb to their face or behind their back, but I have called many individuals losers to their face; many, many times. They may have gotten angry, but that was all they got, because they realized that my arguments were valid and that theirs were hogwash. Getting physical with me was never a possibility.
I am glad I could make you laugh. Making people laugh is Mans greatest achievement.
Arkius, my apologies if my first sentence was confusing. I did in fact read your post and understand that you were talking about our sitting president. I made that note (in parentheses) only to clarify to the new readers to whom you were referring.
Whether it was wrong as a sitting president to make the comment or not, President Obama did. I don't think it was wrong, because he is also a person. Please, don't even think about looking for the legal statute--it isn't necessary for me. You may be correct that it was against the law. If you are, then what would you like to do about it? Keep reminding people? Start impeachment proceedings? Or maybe just drop it. Like it or not, he is a human being, and we humans are ALL fallible and we make mistakes--sometimes large ones, sometimes not. My preference would be to drop it.
You are correct--I don't know you or your political affiliation. I made an assumption based on your writings. If I was incorrect, oh well. As I said we are all fallible. Is it necessary to make demeaning statements to other commenter on Newsvine? (Such as, "you don't know what you're talking about," or calling others stupid or dumb?)
Why then would you write on the Vine that people are stupid, dumb, losers, etc.? I don't understand the purpose of such negativity, particularly when you don't know them? Further, what is the point of calling people losers to their face? It is disparaging and demeaning. Perhaps you have a purpose in using such words. I'd like to know what it is.
Back to the main thrust of the article, I do believe that Zimmerman is guilty. Yes, in our country (thank goodness) he is innocent until proven guilty. Based on all I have read, including the 183 pages of previously unreleased information, it is my feeling that he is guilty. I realize that it is up to the courts to decide if he will be punished for his actions. Whatever they decide, unless some remarkable information comes forth, I feel that he is guilty of shooting young Martin, and he didn't need to do it.
On a separate topic, it is a delight to read comments that are effectively written (even if I don't agree with them). You have a superior command of linguistics, including syntax, punctuation, and grammar, as well as a copious vocabulary. I am curious as to your profession and your educational history, which give you such proficiency. I have my guess, but I'd prefer to know the reality! Also, your screen name is interesting. I haven't been able to figure out what it might mean. Are you willing to share?
Kirigami,
Apology not necessary, but accepted.
My point about the president is exactly as you stated, i.e., what can anyone do about it? Would it be proper for the opposition to be just as politically absurd as the president and start legal proceedings, or should they just make note of it publicly and be done with it? I think they did the right thing, they brought it to the attention of the American people, and they allowed us to draw our own conclusions.
My conclusion was that the president knew what he was doing. He knew it was wrong. He did it anyway. He is morally bankrupt. He is pandering for votes. Did I mention that I think he’s morally bankrupt?
I just can’t pass this off as the president being Barrack Obama, man-on-the-street. He is the president of the United States, the leader of the free world. I do not, for one minute, think that he feels that he can pick up and put down the presidency like a dish rag whenever it suits him. He knew that he should not comment.
Obama is not known for his stupidity, rather, he is known for his political acuity. He knew that the Republican leadership could and would do little in return for his pandering, so he dood it. There would be some backlash, but he knew the up-side would solidify his standing in the Black community, and that is what he was looking for. He was determined to be Barrack Obama, husband and father, man-on-the-street. He didn’t care how his pandering impacted George Zimmerman’s civil rights. His behavior was contemptible.
Like you, I will drop it, but I will not forget it. To me, it’s just another reason why I should not support his re-election.
You wrote: “Is it necessary to make demeaning statements to other commenter on Newsvine? (Such as, "you don't know what you're talking about," or calling others stupid or dumb?) I have never called anyone stupid or dumb to their face or behind their back, but I have called many individuals losers to their face; many, many times.”
Telling someone that they don't know what their talking about is only demeaning and disparaging if it isn’t true. If I can back it up with substantial argumentation, then I have proved my claim, my argument is valid, and they don’t know what they are talking about. They must live with their failure. That is the way it was done in my debate classes in high school and college: Winners win, and losers lose.
Now you are confusing things again. If I wrote, and you confirmed that I have never called anyone stupid or dumb to their face or behind their back, then why are you writing: “Why then would you write on the Vine that people are stupid, dumb, losers, etc.?”
You have declared that based on the limited amount of information that has been released for public consumption that you believe that George is guilty of shooting Martin without necessity. I could care less if he is guilty or innocent. I prefer to wait until the jury returns its verdict to make an appraisal of his status.
Regarding my writing skills: Thank you for your kind compliments. I’m positive my teachers and professors would appreciate them greatly.
I am an archaeologist by profession. My academic background is in anthropology, ancient history and social psychology.
I was named after an ancient Sicilian mariner, who, it is said, pre-dates the Phoenician explorers of the Mediterranean.
My name is pronounced: Are k+eye us
Many things in life are ultimately avoidable but that is a very long way from being a crime.
Fecal matter happens.
Arkius, thanks for the interesting information on your name and background. Now, alas, to less pleasant subjects.
I understand this is your conclusion:
That is not my conclusion, however, and it clearly is not the conclusion of others who have written in this segment of the Vine. I think your comments are boorish and insulting. I am not generally considered to be among the illiterate; therefore, your cutesy "did I mention" was completely unnecessary.
You stated, "Telling someone that they don't know what they’re talking about is only demeaning and disparaging if it isn’t true.” I don’t agree with you. I find it quite opprobrious that someone would say such a thing, whether true or not.
You also wrote:
Though you say it with such certainty, once again, you are assuming that I am confused. I am not. I do not understand why you or others feel free to say whatever they please behind the cloak of an anonymous screen name. You did write that (some) people are stupid and/or dumb. What's the point of being so insolent? Is it just to intimidate people by shoving your conclusions down their throats? It simply isn't necessary. By the way, with another slick twist you have insinuated that I have confirmed that it was true that you never said something; whereas, I only confirmed that you had written it, not that it was true.
Later you wrote:
It is your opinion that the amount of information released so far is limited. I do not agree with you; I think a great deal of information has been released. I'm glad you prefer to wait until the jury's verdict. Please be reminded of what I wrote:
. . . it is my feeling that he is guilty. I realize that it is up to the courts to decide if he will be punished for his actions. Whatever they decide, unless some remarkable information comes forth, I feel that he is guilty of shooting young Martin, and he didn't need to do it.
That's pretty clear--it is my feeling, my opinion.
Arkius, I have read and reread this thread. I think what has bothered me most about it is that you appear to have argued with, put down, or at least responded negatively to nearly everyone who has had the nerve to write or respond to you. To wit: David Walker, xrayspex, PreceededByNone, Ed1118000, 25 Walker, Hayabusa, dman, Susie, and I may have missed some.
You have said things about people that I never say to people, and I would not wish them to be said to me, such as: contemptible liar; disgusting; self-righteousness; and fabricated, outright lies. (This is not intended to be an inclusive list.) It seems that you use your erudite command of language to intimidate folks. That’s a shame. Discussions such as these should be allowed to continue with people expressing differing opinions without feeling attacked by you or others.
You say this type of thing with such certainty! I’ve noticed that my posts generally use phrases like “I seem”, “I think”, and “I feel”. The difference is that I try to respect other people's opinions, even though I might disagree with them; whereas, you do not appear to be (or are definitely not) respectful of people's right to disagree with you.
It makes me sad that it is so hard to disagree with you (and others) without being attacked in return. As I intimated in a previous post, I appreciate that you do not swear (or P$eudo-$wear) at people. Your approach of intimidating and attacking with such certainty might even be worse.
Most comments are saying that all community watch and community policing programs and the right to make a citizens arrest should all be thrown out and disbanded. We should wait the 5 to 30 minutes for the police when the perpetrators will be long gone. Most logical people would ask somoene following them, why are you following me. Not immediately double back and physically assault the person. Zimmerman had no choice at that point but facing possible unconsciousness and possible death to defend himself with the firearm Trayvon would most likely have taken from him and ended Zimmermans life. I'm sure Zimmerman would rather spend a few years in jail than be the dead one. He did what any logical thinking person would do.
It is also telling that MSNBC would use a picture of a 50lb heavier Zimmerman from the past and a years old photo of the person who started the fight Trayvon who had grown over a foot and gained weight. Then Dan Abrams says that it is Zimmermans burden to prove he was not the instigator in the fight. That guy Dan Abrams is a propagandist and knows nothing about law.
Zimmerman did have a choice, the police dispatcher asked him to not follow Martin, but he decided to anyway. Zimmerman's actions did have a consequence he killed Martin. If he had done what he was told by the police dispatcher this would have not happened. But Zimmerman decided to follow this "suspicious black male" for reasons none of us know but are part of a documented pattern by Zimmerman. This was not the first time "suspcious black males" have peaked Zimmerman's curiosity. The sad part is that Zimmerman had to include the black male in his comments to the police dispatcher, no one said those words for him. Zimmerman didnt say "suspcious male" did he, so the oneous of bias is on Zimmerman. I would be interested in knowing if Zimmerman ever called about other suspcious males or is it only males of a certain color he deemed suspcious. I am hoping those questions are asked and explored.
One of the places I work is a large urban trauma center, so I see all types of people. Some look suscpious and some do not, I dont look at their color to determine that criteris and shame on others who do.
Additionally, President Obama is the head of the Executive Office, he is not Chief Finanacial officer, thats the legislature. Also he is not Chief Judical officer, that the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. I learned about government in Junior High, High school, and college, so I'm pretty sure about those facts. I have also lobbied in Washington DC as a healthcare provider so I can attest to knowing this firsthand. so if you think otherwise you clearly havent a clue.
epidural
Perhaps if you LISTENED to the raw audio instead of the EDITED lies that NBC PRODUCED. George DID state suspicious male. He only mentioned race when ASKED by dispatch. Listen or read for yourself.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/16/trayvon-martin-911-audio-_n_1354909.html
7:09 p.m. ET
Dispatcher: "Do you need police, fire or medical?"
Zimmerman: "We had some break-ins in our neighborhood ... and there is a real suspicious guy. ... This guy looks like he's up to no good, he's on drugs or something. It's raining, and he's walking around looking about. "
Dispatcher: "Is this guy white, black, Hispanic?"
Zimmerman: "He looks black."
Kirigami
We were arguing whether or not we felt it was right for a sitting president to comment on a case still before the courts. I said that yes according to the law etc, etc he was not allowed to comment what so ever on the case. I mentioned that he knew that it was wrong to comment, and I also mention that every attorney in the country knows it’s wrong for him to comment. But he decided to ignore the law, ignore the bad example it sets, ignore the traditions of the presidency and open his big mouth and comment. Whether or not it was a statement of compassion of fatherly love, he was wrong, and he had no right to do it. And then you saw fit to personally insult me, because I did not buy into your political agenda.
And now, you come to me with this incredible piece of damnable confusion. In your comments of #1.166 - Sat May 19, 2012 3:38 PM EDT You wrote: “In my opinion it is inappropriate to refer to people as stupid or dumb, or to call people losers or any other name.” In my response to you of #1.167 - Sun May 20, 2012 11:33 AM EDT, I make it quite clear that: “I have never called anyone stupid or dumb to their face or behind their back, but I have called many individuals losers to their face; many, many times.” In your comments of :#1.168 - Sun May 20, 2012 2:38 PM EDT, you either choose to ignore, or you are finding it difficult to deal with my reply, because you respond in the most bizarre manner: Is it necessary to make demeaning statements to other commenter on Newsvine? (Such as, "you don't know what you're talking about," or calling others stupid or dumb?)
You now quote me (Arkius): “I have never called anyone stupid or dumb to their face or behind their back, but I have called many individuals losers to their face; many, many times.” And then you throw in my face a sentence that I, on the main, just refuted, when you wrote: “Why then would you write on the Vine that people are stupid, dumb, losers, etc.? I don't understand the purpose of such negativity, particularly when you don't know them?” This is the third time you are throwing this in my face and I’ve already answered it twice before. Let me answer a question with a question: Was there some thing about the first two identical answers that you didn’t like, that compel you to ask the question one more time? If you have any proof that I called anyone stupid or dumb, then please cite it or stop bothering me with this foolishness.
BTW, I realize I made an error. When I wrote “If I wrote, and you confirmed that I have never called anyone stupid or dumb to their face or behind their back, then why are you writing” This is my error. Somehow I thought that you had confirmed that I had written it, and that you understood in no uncertain terms that I didn’t write on the Vine that people are stupid, or dumb. I have already discussed and explained my use of the term loser. To quote you: “If I was incorrect about dumb and stupid, oh well. As I said we are all fallible.”
And now, our exchange must turn away from friendly pleasantries to the viciousness of verbal combat.
In your less then cordial comments of :Mon May 21, 2012 5:57 PM EDT I wrote: “My conclusion was that the president knew what he was doing. He knew it was wrong. He did it anyway. He is morally bankrupt. He is pandering for votes. Did I mention that I think he’s morally bankrupt?”
And to this you replied” That is not my conclusion, however, and it clearly is not the conclusion of others who have written in this segment of the Vine. I think your comments are boorish and insulting. I am not generally considered to be among the illiterate; therefore, your cutesy "did I mention" was completely unnecessary.” Can I assume that you are writing on behalf of and with the permission of a group? The Vine Illiterati perhaps?
I think my comment were appropriate considering what the president took upon himself to do. And could you please clarify these two following ideas. What does you not being among the illiterate have to do with “did I mention” being completely unnecessary? There doesn’t seem to be a correlation between those two concepts.
You wrote: “"Telling someone that they don't know what they’re talking about is only demeaning and disparaging if it isn’t true.” I don’t agree with you. I find it quite opprobrious that someone would say such a thing, whether true or not.” Sorry, but I can not agree with you.
I think we come from two different cultural backgrounds. You see, I was actually taught from grammar school through graduate school that it was the point of argumentation to prove that someone didn’t know what the were talking about, telling them about it was the object of the exercise. Remember there are winners and losers in everything in life. Losing is a great motivator. Where I come from, the weaklings fall by the way-side.
You wrote: “Though you say it with such certainty, once again, you are assuming that I am confused. I am not. I do not understand why you or others feel free to say whatever they please behind the cloak of an anonymous screen name. You did write that (some) people are stupid and/or dumb. What's the point of being so insolent? Is it just to intimidate people.” Gee, I must have struck a nerve or something. Do you think you can calm down; the hissy fit isn’t necessary. Sorry if you’re so up set. But, if you scroll up I do acknowledge that I made a mistake. Are you all better now? You do have a tendency to over-react, which in my opinion is a bit immature.
You wrote: “It is your opinion that the amount of information released so far is limited. I do not agree with you; I think a great deal of information has been released. I'm glad you prefer to wait until the jury's verdict. Please be reminded of what I wrote:
. . . it is my feeling that he is guilty. I realize that it is up to the courts to decide if he will be punished for his actions. Whatever they decide, unless some remarkable information comes forth, I feel that he is guilty of shooting young Martin, and he didn't need to do it.
That's pretty clear--it is my feeling, my opinion.:
And you are entitled to your opinion as such, but what is you point? Is your point to just come to these boards and post your sacred opinion for the readers to see and marvel at and turn away, and click off their computers because Kirigami’s got it all figured out, we can go home now. Or do other people like me, see your comments for what they are; topics for debate. You see, you may think your opinion is sacred, but here in the real world, it’s not. It’s a topic for debate and people are going to tear it up one side and down the other. And if you are too timid to defend your positions, then maybe you should start writing for the Friends or some group a little less rambunctious then this one.
I say things to people that need to be said. If you don’t have the spine to speak your mind than please don’t condemn me for speaking my mine. You don’t have that right. If I think someone’s behavior is self-righteous, or disgusting I’ll let them know about it. I don’t live in your creampuff world; if folks are intimidated by my approach then that is their problem, if they feel they have a good point, then they should argue their point with gusto. And by the way, in my neighborhood, telling me that my “comments are boorish and insulting” is the same as saying that I’m boorish and insulting. You could get your head broken if you said that to me in front of a crowd. You need to go back and read. And you’re guilty of doing to me what you accuse me of doing to others.
I might be telling my opponents that their ideas are: Contemptible; disgusting; self-righteousness; and fabricated, or outright lies. Don’t take me out of context. At other times, David Walker, xrayspex, PreceededByNone, Ed1118000, 25 Walker, Hayabusa, dman and Susie, are just contemptible liars; disgusting; self-righteousness; fabricated, or outright lies.
Anyone can disagree with me, but you have got to put together a good argument. You can’t appeal to god, you can’t appeal to straw man arguments, no begging the question, no circular thinking. One thing you haven’t mentioned about that list of people you made up; I provided verifiable evidence to support my arguments, not one of them could do the same. And that’s the core of my argument, they were all saying: I think, I feel. I seem, it was all subjective hogwash and that is what you don’t understand. They are not familiar with the basics of academic argumentation, and that is why I ripped them to shreds.
Perhaps, that is what you found so intimidating. You need to familiarize your self with academic argumentation style and then get back to me. I will of course accept your apology. BTW, look into humor.
Patriot Chic, HOG Lover!, you're each suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
Geez, all the reports he called in were about black men? Does anyone remember that statistically more crime is commited by black men? Love the way the media is still trying to screw Zimmerman for the Obama cause
This has to be one of the most ignorant comments I have ever seen, "GOMER".
You had to bring Obama into it huh? You need help as well as the 13 morons who voted up for your post. Hint : racisim.
actually statistics show more black on black crime but by far white young males commit more crime than black young males. look it up. 70% more
Obama brought himself into it..when he shouldn't have. Just like he did with Henry Gates.
Obama has a knack of opening his mouth before he has all the facts.
Notice Obama is eerily silent in the attack of 2 white reporters by a gang of blacks in Norfolk, VA.
Not cool to play the race card, Mark. Try bringing a "point" to the discussion, m-kay?
What an idiot you are dude! Obama has nothing to do with this. And if this guy was so innocent then why did he shot him from a distance? and why didnt we see all this :mess" when they brought him into the police station??
This picture doesnt look anything like Zimmerman.
Obama IS involved with this, because HE stuck his nose in it. Remember when he said the junkie...."could have been my son"?
Hey Rob, I didn't bring Obama into this.
jformonyobamasucks did. All I did was chastise him for doing so. Pay attention.
The "up" is over 16 now and will continue to climb. Remember Bobo was the one that said "Trayvon could be my son." Who brought what to where? Hint: Racism.
Hey Mark - wasn't responding to you - read the threads, buddy.
You forget that Trayvon was not committing any crime. He was stalked and obviously defended himself, as he should have. What's especially damning is that the boy was shot at intermediate range!
I've had a broken nose and your nose blows up immediately big time. Zimmerman's nose is not broken.
The traces of marijuana cannot impair anyone. He may have smoked something weeks ago, but the amounts are way, way too low for someone who had recently smoked.
Lalia, Where do you get your statistics? Please read the following statistics, not racism. FACT.
According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the prison and jail population in 2009.[28] Hispanics (of all races) were 15.9% of those incarcerated in 2009. Hispanics comprised 16.3% of the US population according to the 2010 US census. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics from 2000 to 2008 the rate of prevalence of incarceration for blacks declined to 3,161 per 100,000 and the white rate slightly increase to 487 per 100,000. In 2009 American Indians and Alaskan Natives were jailed, paroled, or on probation at 932 per 100,000, 25% higher than for non-Indians/Natives (747), up 5.6% that year and 12% higher than 2007.[32]. However, crime in general declined during this time down to near 1970 levels, an 18% decrease from the previous decade.
For men in their early thirties, African-Americans are about 7 times more likely to have a prison record than whites. They are more likely to have been in prison (22.4 percent) than in the military (17.4 percent). However, more blacks are enrolled in college than in prison. According to the US Census Bureau as of the year 2000 there were 2,224,181 blacks enrolled in college.[34] In that same year there were only 610,300 black inmates in prison according to the Bureau of Justice.[35] 12.5 percent have a bachelor’s degree.[citation needed] The results are highly dependent on education. 30 percent of those without college education and nearly 60 percent of high school dropouts had prison records.
Don't know if Zimmerman will be convicted, or acquitted. If I had to guess, if they tried him for manslaughter, they would have more of a chance for a conviction, Murder 2, I actually can't see it. Time will tell.
Intermediate Range varies from approx 6 inches to 3 feet, but one report states close range
You forget that Trayvon was not committing any crime. He was stalked
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Blue. I was trying to make this point here last night but people do not listen. If someone followed me and then approached me, I would try to knock them out before I would make a run for it. And, no, I would not wait for any questions ?
And my brother did some street fighting and I have seen a quite a few fights. No, I do not claim to be an expert but I do know a little and IMO Martin´s and Zimmerman´s injuries do not support Zimmerman´s claim of being brutally attacked, having head slammed into a concrete, having to wrestle for a gun and then having to fire . Martin´s hands lack any evidence of brutally pounding someone and Zimmerman just looks like he took one punch into his face.
And on top of anything I do not see ANY EVIDENCE that shows Martin was indeed the attacker.
Rob22245
Not cool to play the race card, Mark. Try bringing a "point" to the discussion, m-kay?
Rob22245
Hey Mark - wasn't responding to you - read the threads, buddy.
Wanna explain this then Rob, ole buddy?
I would certainly hope that whites commit more crime, as blacks only make up 12% of the population. However, if black crime is more than 12% of the overall, that means they more MORE likely to commit a crime.
Hey morons: NEWSFLAsH: THIS article has NOTHING to do with OBAMA. ZERO. ZILCH. HE AINT EVEN MENTIONED.
DROP IT!
It's racial profiling, plain and simple.
Just because some blacks commit crimes doesn't meant they all do, and that doesn't mean it's OK to think every black guy walking down your street is a criminal.
Maybe you might want to do some research about why blacks--or any marginalized population in society, is thought to be more likely to commit crimes. Educate yourself. I hope you're sufficiently depressed to find out that a bunch of old, rich, white men are ultimately to blame.
One light punch can break a nose, I've broken mine before, it doesn't take much, and it's not life threatening. The back of Zimmerman's head doesn't look bashed in either. It looks like he cut on a rock in the grass when he was down. None of these injuries appear to be life threatening. So I guess when attacked by a bag of skittles, deadly force is authorized. It's clear to me that Zimmerman chased Trayvon down and fought, Trayvon punched Zimmerson in the nose, knocking Zimmerman down on the grass, where Zmmerman cut the back of his head on a small rock, Zimmerman got up and shot Trayvon in the chest, taking his life.
Navy Retired, I believe that in Florida, unlike some other states, if they can't close with a conviction on Murder 2 they can still back off and convict on manslaughter without a whole new trial and issues of 'double jeopardy'.
So Arby...someone follows you, and approaches you, and you're going to assault them right? Best of luck in prison Arby, let alone society. So you've seen some fights, and been in some, and that makes you an expert on wounds? Not surprising, most lib's are experts on stuff they know nothing/little about. I am an expert and have sat on the stand and testified several times (25 year street paramedic) and I can tell you his wounds, from the photos shown, are completely consistent with his story. I've seen hundreds, if not thousands, of fight results and the common street fight can present as anything from severe to very little. I've seen people that were so bloody you'd swear they were dying and all they had was a small lac while others who had almost no visible injury died from a CHI (Closed Head Injury). All from fights.
You don't see ANY EVIDENCE? Wow...another fine lib :)
Crime statistics are irrelevant. There had been some recent break-ins as well as an attack on a woman in her home, all in this neighborhood. There were at least two reports that the suspects were young, black males. For that reason, and that reason alone, Zimmerman was suspicious of Martin. There is no evidence that we have seen that indicates Martin was "waving around a gun". If there were such evidence that we have just not seen, it is likely the prosecutor would have added the charge of "brandishing", which is a felony. That Zimmerman was or was not "ultimately responsible" is also irrelevant. Florida law's "stand your ground" statue is rather long and complex, but it allows self defense even if the shooter began the altercation under a couple of conditions; the evidence indicates Zimmerman was on his back when he was being beaten, his nose was broken, and he had other minor injuries- cut lip, swelling, two black eyes, a minor back injury, and cuts to his head- which is enough to argue that had he not used deadly force he would have suffered "substantial injuries or death", which is what the law requires. Martin's autopsy showed scraped knuckles and THC traces. It's below the level required to cause "performance impairment", meaning he may have been high but he could still fight.
Bottom line, this case has more evidence than we know of. Had the evidence we now have been released earlier, there would not have been such outrage. That MSNBC still calls Zimmerman a "white with Hispanic heritage" is disgraceful; is Obama "white with African-American heritage"? Zimmerman self-identifies as an Hispanic- the box he marked on his DMV license. That he is half-white, part South American Native/Hispanic, and a small part black is irrelevant. Zimmerman calls himself Hispanic, which is how he was raised. By the way, here is a family portrait showing Zimmerman's black great-grandfather. Zimmerman has three times as much black blood (1/8) than Elizabeth Warren would have had Cherokee, were her story true.
Barlow, I have had a broken nose, it hurt like hell, and it didn't swell up until the next day. All of us have a right to watch their neighborhood (hence Neighborhood Watch) , especially after the breakins in that complex. If someone hits me in the nose and bloodies the back of my head, I would dispatch him as quickly as possible with any means at my disposal to stop him short of killing me. Of course Zimmerman could have avoided giving a damn about his neighborhood's crime problems. Trayvon, the six foot three ten year old could have avoided the situation also by not being suspended from school, and not attacking Zimmerman.
FlyButanol-Well we only have Zimmerman's side of things since Martin is dead so we don't kinow if he was brandishing his gun or not,
Davset-You comment is inane. Martin may not have been an angel but he wasn't doing anything wrong. It was the decisions of George Zimmerman that lead directly to the confrontation, not Martin getting suspended.
Lets see, any you guys wanna stalk me, I will attempt to hide first. Should you find me, I will go offensive to escape my hiding spot. Zimmerman murdered a person, period, may God have mercy on his soul. If Trayvon was in the process of committing a crime, maybe zimms defence would stand, but walking down a sidewalk munching on skittles and sipping a tea? Wonder if a white guy gets murdered walking in a black neighborhood gets shot with the same circumstances as this case happenned, if it would be an issue at all. My guess the black guy would be in jail awaiting trial since so many of you feel rightious on your skin color bringing statistics, etc into play. I have friends of all colors of skin that I love. I apreciate the love they return as my friends since I am of multiracial blood.
Just another excuse for haters to bash on the President. Let the courts decide this case and leave the bigotry for your own dinner table!
Uhm.. Zimmerman was not on duty with the watch that night. Anyone notice that.
He was on his way to the store when he saw someone walking around in a gated community. Someone he did not know. There were break ins by young black males. This is a young black male. Just going by the information I just provided would you have called the cops. The dispatcher said that they did not need him to follow the young man. Zimmerman walked away. Some how there is suddenly an inch cut in the back of Zimmerman's head and a hit to the face that blackened both his eyes. I am seeing what looks like him getting punched in the face. Trayvon was reported as striking a bus driver in the face by his brother. Sounds like Trayvon went gangsta on Zimmerman. When Zimmerman hit the ground, his jacket fell open and reveiled the gun. Hmm.. plausable for a boy coming down from a joint to see the gun and go for it. Zimmermand now has a 6'3" 160 pound guy landing on top of him. Think that will change how your voice sounds. Why don't you try it to see. So someone is calling for help on the tape. Ever think that the audio expert that checked the tape was using a copy of the original recording. Maybe he broke into the police database to steal the original. How about this, the recording that he tested might just have been a copy of the recording, that had been adjusted to hide the woman's voice. hmm.. a lot of bull being slung around and no one knows the truth.
There are only 3 things anyone can possibly bash the president for, and any one who does not include any or all of the 3 examples I am about to list is a racist or in denial of that fact..............
1. He flip flopped on medical marijuana and on marijuana legalization after he was elected. Not only did he flip flop, when he asked Americans for ideas for change oon his website, ON 3 SEPERATE OCCSSIONS Americans overwhelmingly voted for marijuana legalization or reform of currents laws in some way. HE LAUGHED AT US. And he smoked a lot of pot as a teen and GOT AWAY WITH IT - A RARITY given his race - For that he should be........Where's Ted Nugent?
2. Obama care. While parts of it were OK, mandatory health care or a fine is a violation of the constitution.
3. He assasinated Osama bin laden rather than capture him (he clearly had that option), return him to America for trial and then let justice be served. This ASSASINATION only hurts America's credability around the world as a world leader and advocate for human justice. We are no longer the #1 superpower, nor are we the world's policeman and we should stop acting as such.
Mark:
Politicians can criticize politicians on any actions those politicians willfully do and it neither makes them racist or in denial of facts. Your very short list tells me that you are in denial of this fact
Arby:
I am quite aware that the only evidence that you would accept is if Zimmerman were dead (and maybe not even that.) I am quite satisfied that those injuries indicate that Matin attacked Zimmerman and that Zimmerman never threw a punch. He shot in self defense. I know it. You know it. You just want Zimmerman's head.
PreceededByNone,
Someone wrote: “Does anyone remember that statistically more crime is commited by black men?”
And you replied: “It's racial profiling, plain and simple”. Sorry, but your response is irrational; it does not apply.
The writer is stating a claim about statistics and Black men. Racial profiling may have something to do with Black men, but is has nothing to do with statistics. One is mathematical; the other is the experience of physical observation in comparison with stereo-typical behavior. Now I do not contend that statistics can not be compiled from racial profiling, but racial profiling, in, and of itself, is not statistics.
You wrote: “Just because some blacks commit crimes doesn't meant they all do”. This is a very weak straw man argument. The writer claims that “statistically more crime is commited by black men”, the writer does not claim that all Black men commit crimes.
You wrote: “Maybe you might want to do some research about why blacks--or any marginalized population in society, is thought to be more likely to commit crimes. Educate yourself.” OK. Why don’t you tell the readers in detail why marginalized populations in society are more likely to commit crimes then non-marginalized populations are? This should be interesting.
You wrote: “I hope you're sufficiently depressed to find out that a bunch of old, rich, white men are ultimately to blame.” Please explain why the writer would need to be “sufficiently depressed”? Are you assuming the writer is white? You seem to have an anti-white tone. Is there some racism or bias going on with you?
Mark,
Your entire post #2.28 of Thu May 17, 2012 9:48 PM EDT was absolutely so terrible that I'm not going to go into a detail critique, except to tell you that lecturing to the readers is not your fortè.
Have you considered shinning shoes?
BS.
Waht you see is more Crimes "reported" involving Black men! There is a difference, matter of fact, with the avalance of DNA-based releases of long term, convicted black men, hitting the courts. It becoming more and more obvious that conviction and reports have little to do with whether the man committed the crime. It has more to do with whether he "Fit the profile".
The releases, based on DNA evidence, recantations by witnesses who were manipulated by Police and confessions by guilt-ridden former officers, prosecutors and whistle-blowers Suggests that these cases are much greater than the 10% - 20% statistical rate of other inmates.
It has become fashionable for Colleges, university studies to investigate and document the built in bias to attribute "criminal intent" - even when conditions are exactly the same; but the subject varies between Asian, White, Hispanic and Black participants.
In one case - the subject of a PBS study: A bicycle was chained to a street sign and the subject and passers-by were filmed as the subject came to the bike (a high end, racing bike). In all except one case - the passers-by immediately, assumed the black kid was stealing the bike. The one exception was an elderly gentleman. He was suspicious too - but he asked if the kid needed help. Then he asked if the bike was his - then he helped him cut the chain off the bike. The film crew was surprised to the point that they stopped filming and interviewed the good Samaritan to find out why he helped?
In all the other cases, the viewer ranged from quiet outrage - to offering violence against the kid. In the cases of the other subjects; there was some concern, but very few did anything other than threathen to call police.
http://www.wimp.com/stealingbike/
****UPDATE: Breitbart.com Report Details That Obama Official Spokesperson, via Literary Agency, Claimed He Was Born in Kenya Up Until 2007. See below for details, but in essence, the PR firm advertised Obama as a Kenyan born, Indonesia & Hawaii raised politico for a period of 16 years.
Who is Barack Obama? The question remains contentious, but a new smoking gun piece of evidence makes certain that so-called “birthers” won’t be going anywhere. It has now emerged that Barack Obama’s own authorized biography while president of the Harvard Law Review says he was “born in Kenya” and raised in both Indonesia and Hawaii. This is prima facie evidence that the public has been sold on a big lie. It further only reinforces the mountains of related evidence that has surfaced, not the least of which is Michele Obama’s own public statements about their returning to Barack’s “homeland” in Africa to conduct a public AIDS test stunt. Wow!
Breitbart.com broke the story as part of their “vetting” series that has coincided with the untimely death of Andrew Breitbart himself.
How many people of any other color were caught invading homes in that area?
I'd like to know the race of the people living in that community. In other words, if all/most are white (or) light-skinned, then of COURSE there will be calls to an obvious outsider in the neighborhood!
They don't have a Neighborhood WATCH program because there's never been any problems. If it's mostly a white neighborhood & a black/purple/green/whatEVER color person is hanging around - at NIGHT, wearing a hoodie, then YES - there's gonna be trouble.
(So many "hoodie" protests in our area, saying how the hoodie should not have been brought up & is/was no cause for alarm. 'Course, no one - black OR white - complained when many of our local malls banned them a few years back.) Sensationalism - that's all this has become.
PS - as another aside, look at all the "donations" the Martin has received...
Disgusting.
Nascar a typical redneck worrying about all the donations Trayvon Martin's family has received. It don't hurt you any Nascar so why you worrying about. Another trick that Zimmerman supporters love to pull is screaming and hollering about media using the 12 year old photo of Trayvon. Even Zimmerman's supporters and racists know that his actions are indefensible. He executed Trayvon like the n$$$$$ he thought he was. Now it's time to ruin Zimmerman's life. Don't let the racists and Zimmerman lovers cloud the issue. He was told not to pursue. He chose to do it anyway. Even a blind can see that he initiated and provoked the confrontation. What Zimmerman apologists won't say out loud is that Trayvon was under some mysterious obligation to answer to Zimmerman. Since when? If the situation was reversed, not one of Zimmerman's apologists would be saying a white boy was obligated to justify himself to a Black man.
"Outsider"? Seriously? Because naturally, black people aren't allowed in white neighborhoods. Racist much?
Nope. He shot in self defense when the young man was trying to beat him to death. And I realize that your main argument is "look how sweet and innocent he appears in those old photos." Unfortunately, that's not the image Zimmerman saw bashing his head in.
You can't confront people walking on the street as if you own it because you don't. You can't shoot someone if they were standing in your yard without going to prison, just like my neighbor did when he shot a kid who stepped on his lawn. Only law enforcement can confront someone, and only if they have probable cause, and walking down the street minding minding your own business isn't probable cause. Even if Zimmerman didn't have a gun, he should still do time for confronting and harassing another citizen.
NASCAR,
I cant believe I forgot that. Around 5 years ago in Atlanta GA all kids were banned from malls after 6 pm without adult. No hoodies, headscarves, bandanas, etc.
Thanks.
BP...another fine lib...toooo funny! I'm mean really TOOO FUNNY!! Saw one a couple of days ago ..."what's all this about a fair trial, he should be shot!"
Barry's buddies to the rescue...I gotta stop now and then to laugh...
All reports indicate it is a racially diverse community that has had recent burglary and vandalism problems
Pvblivs Glad ZimmZimm was screaming for help before he decided to pull the trigger. NIMNUT drill a hole in your head and pour some brains in it.
precededBynone -""Outsider"? Seriously? Because naturally, black people aren't allowed in white neighborhoods. Racist much?"
Maybe because being in THE NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH and caring about your community you know who lives in it?
P.S.
Zimmerman isn't white, so obviously his neighborhood is not all white.
BP, ..........Gated communities are gated for a reason, they are gated to allow the residents privacy and security and are off limits to strangers who do not have sponsored permission to be on the premises.....Trayvon was a stranger to Zimmerman which gave reason for suspicion and concern.
By the way, the community watch group is made up of people of diverse races who live in the community, it just happened to be Zimmerman's night to patrol.......Luck of the draw, so to speak
I guess how Trayvon advertised himself as "NO_LIMIT_NIGGA" on Facebook is of no evidence of his personality and as a potential threat to others.
I guess how Zimmerman beat up his ex-fiance and assaulted a police officer is of no evidence of his personality and as a potential threat to others.
Good thing George was armed. He might have been killed or severely injured had he not protected himself.
Hey Champ...I just made a donation to Zimmerman on your behalf
...way to go George, we salute you
The main entity at fault here: Florida. While I understand and appreciate Florida's implementation of Stand Your Ground as a way to give citizens legal breathing room for defending themselves, how can you implement a law of this nature without also implementing a statute such as Imperfect Self-Defense? Without this important additional statute you either have to believe that Zimmerman was a helpless victim of a thug attack or a merciless and evil man. Or at least you have to prosecute/defend that way.
If Florida also instituted Imperfect Self-Defense then this whole situation would be rationally understood and handled. Zimmerman believed he saw suspicious behavior, he went to check it out (against good advice and sound judgment), he was confronted by an obviously confused and frustrated young man who felt Zimmerman was stalking him and he was in jeopardy, the two had a scuffle and Zimmerman being matched by a younger and stronger Martin believed he needed to defend himself with deadly force. A police investigation would find no weapons on Martin and that the confrontation was avoidable by Zimmerman in the first place meaning that the shooting, while arguably necessary at the time, was in fact an unreasonable use of force in the larger scope. Zimmerman would have been charged with manslaughter and none of this would have made the media.
Florida has not adopted this measure so the police force, while knowing that Zimmerman caused this entire thing, had no way to charge him at the time. Stupidity although lethal is not a crime. This also explains why they have to charge this as a hate crime; because they don't have much else and Zimmerman's past actions lend to a seemingly credible argument to use to convince a jury. My point I end with is pass the laws that are needed by police to help them do their jobs at the start and you won't need the three-ring media circus and outlandishly far reaching charges by the prosecution!
Plain and simple Zimmerman was assaulted and protected himself-Good job!!!!!
Plain and simple Zimmerman started a fight that was completely avoidable, and then panicked and shot someone when he started losing. Perhaps someone on anti-anxiety medication shouldn't on the neighborhood watch packing a gun.
Last I checked, 7pm isn't really considered the 'witching hour' for criminals.
1 - you don't know who first assaulted who.
2 - he was chasing after Martin, who was not in the commission of any crime.
3 - get a clue.
.
It's 100% irrelevant what his facebook said. Fact of the matter is that Martin was not in commission of a crime, and Zimmerman erroneously profiled him. If you need me to write it in crayon - Zimmerman was wrong to assume that Martin was engaged in criminal activity. The fact that he was wrong, is proof that he was wrong.
Many of you seem to think this is an opportunity to put the potus, sharpton, and libs in general on trial. This only betrays your bias when it comes to reaching an objective opinion about this case - thus making anything you conclude easily dismissed as simply a symptom of ODS.
Thank you, Jonathan Sanders, for the only intelligent post I've seen regarding this entire issue.
Zimmerman was pursuing Trayvon. What happened next is unknown. However it appears, the little creep was beaten by a much frighten Trayvon. Who was fighting for his life. Only after Zimmerman, was getting the response from the younger guy... Zimmerman shot him. He couldn't fight and overcome a person who was fighting for his life. Zimmerman will go to prison. He should have stayed put. He murdered Trayvon. None of this would have happened, if Zimmerman listened to the dispatcher. Oh and Zimmerman's past, shows a person with no regard for the law or other's who disagree with him...
This article insinuates that Zimmerman is guilty because he chose option A instead of option B.. Both of which were legal and within his rights so this is more BS.. This same reasoning could hold for lots of other things like, If wedid not have a space program astronauts would not have died, if nobody drove cars people would not die in car accidents, if we did not have electricity people would not die from electrical shock.. If Trayvon did not attack George he would not be dead or If George did not have a gun he would be dead.. I hate this whole Black/White thing and the attempts at justification of Trayvon's attack of George..
if i had a son and some weirdo was following him ...i'd hope if he had a phone he...would have enough sense to call 911...zimmerman ain't all there...he instigated the whole thing...with a young man...who lost his life for no good reason...hope he get's some time...
I already sick of hearing about this bullsh!t ...!
Sorry Roadrunner, your logic is faulty. Zimmerman initiated a confrontation with Trayvon. He therefore bears the responsiblity for the outcome.
Just like those who drive drunk and kill somebody get charged wtih at least manslaughter. They made a bad decision that ended in somebody's death - whether or not they intended to kill is irrelevant.
And if you stalk and go after somebody on the street, there is a chance they're going to fight back, which is what Trayvon did. If Trayvon was stalking Zimmerman, I would have expected that Zimmerman would fight back. Why is it not okay for a young black man to defend himself?
Whether or not this is racially motivated, Zimmerman has a history of stalking "suspicious black males" and has a history of violence. He made a decision against what he was advised, and somebody died as a result. Therefore he must bear responibility, and that means at the very least a manslaughter conviction.
Is the liberal media ever going to show a current picture of Martin instead of the innocent looking 14 year old?
floyd, why is it relevant which picture they use? If they use a photo showing Trayvon as a thug, it clouds the facts making it seem like Trayvon deserved to be stalked and confronted by Zimmerman. Regardless of what Trayvon looked like, he could have been afraid for his life which would have caused him to fight back.
Zimmerman initiated this! Whether or not he intended to kill is irrelevant. He should go to jail for his death.
I think it has been well stated in other articles that the community Zimmerman lived in had large white, hispanic, and black populations, and certainly wasn't some elite-all-white-mercedez-in-every-driveway neighborhood. The article points out that Zimmerman called the police reporting black suspects, but they don't tell you that the community had been robbed at least 8 times in the 15 months prior to the incident, and that the robbers were young black males. Even the African American's in the community, many of whom were friends of Zimmerman, fully stated that there were problems with young black males commiting crime in the area.
One of them was even crazy enough to return to the neighborhood with his friends after a robbery, was recognized and reported to the police, and they caught him with the stolen propety in his backpack. Another woman was in her house with her newborn baby, and locked herself in a upper room while her house was robbed, but fortunately they were scared off before they got to her. The community fully supported Zimmeran watching them, they had his number to call him after calling 911 if there was a robbery, Zimmerman had told women in the community that if they were home alone and ever felt threated they were welcome to come to his house and visit with his wife for the evening. Sounds like a horrible guy huh?
One question I have is why didn't they release these close up photos of Zimmerman's injuries to the public when this whole thing broke loose? It would have changed the public media perception of the incident significantly.
Is Zimmerman still guilty of vigilante-ism? Yes, but the situation looks less black and white now.
Don't let facts get in the way of your mindless judgement.
It is more apparent every day that Zimmerman is a horrible guy, per MSNBC anyway, only because Trayvon was black. The Obama campaign manager's at MSNBC are just stirring the race baiters to help Obama's campaign. When the President has nothing to campaign on except racial hatred, this is what we get.
The 'No Limit Nigga' handle on Facebook was proven not to belong to the Trayvon Martin who was shot. There is more than one Trayvon Martin in America. In a nation of 300million people, you think someone out there might not have the same name as you? I know of at least one other person in the US who has the same name as I do--and it turns out we're even distantly related through family about five generations back!
Ever since early on in this case, I've maintained that Zimmerman made poor decisions, which uneccessarily provoked a confrontation, which resulted in a fight, which then caused Zimmerman to shoot and kill Martin out of a situation he created of which he lost control.
Who laid hands on who first? Impossible to tell at this time, and we might never know. But the fact that Zimmerman forced the situation upon Martin is clear as day, Martin didn't provoke anything by simply walking down the street in the neighborhood of which he was a regular visitor.
I also find it pretty unbelievable that Martin popped up like a ninja to jump Zimmerman just after he got done running away from him. That doesn't pass the sniff test, and comes across as entirely unrealistic. The 911 tapes seem to indicate that Zimmerman planned to keep looking for Martin after he got off the phone - so what I think occurred is that he found him again and this time Martin didn't run, but instead decided to confront his pursuer. If his girlfriend's version of events is accurate - it corroborates that is exactly what happened.
If Martin put hands on Zimmerman first, he's at least guilty for that - but now he's dead - he earned his punishment. Zimmerman deserves to also be punished for the role he played as well though, because by no means is he completely innocent of any wrongdoing.

Last I checked, neither the President, the media, nor Sharpton are on trial here. ODS is known to make it difficult to look at this case objectively.
Zimmerman is a racist who profiled Trayvon, called 911 and gave a description to police and then ran up and shot him in the chest. Case closed.
Tragic. But maybe not that simple.
Nah, what happened is that Terminator Martin attacked helpless wimpy Zimmerman and beat him to a pulp. Then, miraculously, wimpy Zimmerman, using a strength he did not know he had, pushed the monster man of of him far enough for him to pull out his trusty gun, aim and shoot him in the heart. Funny how this was not evident at the beginning of the investigation and how available witnesses at the time saw very little but that's life for you.
Avoidable? Yes! Tragic? Yes! Illegal? Maybe not.
Just because there is a tragedy doesn't mean someone "has to pay". Zimmerman may be an a$$, but did he do anything illegal is the question. Asking someone what they are doing, IS NOT ILLEGAL! Confronting someone IS NOT ILLEGAL! Whether he did something illegal after that we will have to wait to see. Most of you are falling for the media B.S. in this case and letting your emotions lead you. The media has been shown to have lied, edited, used old photos, in this case and can NOT be trusted to give an unbiased, accurate account.
But they all weighed in and gave their biased viewpoints so it is fair to respond to them with opposing views.
"floyd, why is it relevant which picture they use?"
Because it makes it appear to the casual observer (which seems to be 99% of the population) that a big, mean adult killed a child half his size, and it unfairly prejudices the average person (and seems to have worked on you) to assume something much more nefarious than what was probably happening. It is also incorrect (TM was no longer a baby-faced 12 or 14 year old and GZ was no longer the overweight person in the mug shot) and the news media should be striving for factual perfection, not sensationalistic political agendas.
You think I'm wrong? Then look at the picture of TM at 14, and what does it make you want to do? Pinch his cheeks cause he looks so nice and sweet? He looks like someone I'd have over for dinner. Now look at the picture of the Highway killer in Mississippi, who seemed to be targeting white people for murder. He was 14 once, too, but looking at his picture would you want to invite him into your home for dinner? I didn't think so.
I'm not saying that TM looked anything like the Highway Killer, I'm just trying to point out how the pictures published by the media can sway your opinion about that person. It seems like the media tried their best to portray TM as a sweet victim and GZ as a bad guy. This is biased reporting, and in high-profile criminal cases like this, should be illegal.
So the Federal Government tells everyone to be vigilant, let the government know if you see something suspicious but as soon as you do something you're guilty of "vigilante-ism", and racism.
Everyone please remember not to do anything to help your neighbor or neighborhood because it could back fire. Zimmerman previously did catch someone breaking into a house and held him until the police arrived. Ask yourself this, if Zimmerman was black would he be getting the same treatment? If the answer is no you are all guilty of racism.
hey, the saying goes, it takes two to tangle. its the same here. if Zimmerman was on his neighborhood watch and he saw Martin, i would want to know why Martin did not stop. Obviously he (Martin) had no respect for Zimmerman who felt provoked. If Martin had trace substances of drugs in his system (he did), this could be a reason why he chose to ignore the peace officer (Zimmerman) when he saw him. this tragic outcome could have been avoided: 1. MOM did you know your son was taking drugs? 2. Travon, why did you not stop, your own actions precipitated Zimmerman's reactions (too late for your answer now), 3. Zimmerman, i am sure your actions were right in your own eyes.
the results of this tragedy are slowly coming to light now and as expected, there was more to this than what we were first asked to believe.
no one will ever no the truth because it is a one sided story without witnesses. Bottom line Zimmerman was pursing an armed person after the police told him not to get out of the car. Zimmerman decided to pursue someone walking down the street with a gun in his possession. What about Martins rights to defend himself after all He was being followed by a man with a gun. Pot doe not make a person aggresive, but i know first hand as a nurse that adderall does here are some of the reactions.....
He was on this medication. Martin smoked pot a few days prior. Did Zimmerman have a script for this drug? Or was he abusing it like so many people are doing? If the Florida law is a person can defend their ground maybe that is what Martin was doing and things turned all bad. For the mere fact that the police told Zimmerman to stay put untill they arrived, i think he needs to pay the consequences of his actions. If he would have even chose not to carry a gun that night the outcome might have been very different.
"But the fact that Zimmerman forced the situation upon Martin is clear as day,"--Shuklack
There you go again, Shuklack, reading things into what happened to make it fit your opinion. It's not clear as day that GZ forced anything. He started following a "suspicious person," which was totally within his right and duty as a RECOGNIZED Watch Captain and is no more illegal than TM walking down the sidewalk was. Indications are that he lost visual contact and stopped following. A few minutes later a physical confrontation ensued. GZ leaving his truck and following TM did not force that confrontation any more than your getting out of bed one morning forces the car wreck you have on the way to work. Another action that we don't know about forced that confrontation.
Is it possible GZ is a cold blooded murderer? Yep, and if so I hope he fries. Is it possible he is being railroaded for a racist political agenda? Yep, and if so I hope he goes free. Can you admit that BOTH of these possibilities exist?
I, for one, am willing to accept the decision of the court as the "official" opinion on the subject, not your opinion, nor MSNBC's, nor Al's and Jessie's or the so-called racists on both sides of the aisle. There has to be a final official finding, and I'd rather it be from the cold, emotionless analysis of a court proceeding than from an emotional, prejudiced mob like what we read on this forum.
i am sorry i meant un armed man it would not let me fix it sorry
CC........I agree with you 100% I don't think it was racially motivated , i do think Zimmerman was the aggressor and should have listened to the police. A sad situation for all and a reason to make changes at least to their community watch program, there is no need to carry a weapon. The program is to watch and report.
This is NOT CORRECT. This is the problem is that so many of you don't have the story correct.
Zimmerman was already out of the car following Martin when the cops tell him he "does not need to do that". Zimmerman says he then STOPS pursing Martin and goes back to meet the police when Martin comes out and starts attacking him.
Again you mention this as if it is FACT he didn't do exactly what he was told.
First:
it's been established that while Zimmerman is on the neighborhood watch he was not 'on duty' that night--he was heading out on an errand when he spotted Martin.
Second:
I live in a neighborhood that is border territory for five different gangs; two Crips, one Blood, one Mexican and one Salvadoran gang (both these latter are car mod and street racing gangs and only race late at night by the coal plant at the end of the street.) I also have 70 registered sex offenders living in my neighborhood, one across the street who raped a 16 year old, one at the top of the hill who molested his 7 year old nephew, and one that I have a restraining order on when he mistook me for a minor from behind and grabbed my privates. My kids are told that if ANYONE approaches you, run. Immediately. Don't look back, don't stop. Run home. I's not a matter of respect, it's safety.
Third:
You bring up that Martin had trace amounts of drugs in his system. Did you catch the line where the article states that these amounts were below the levels required for impairment? Also, if you want to make that an issue, Zimmerman himself as being medicated by a psychologist for insomnia and anxiety with Adderall and Temazepam, which are amphetamines and benzodiazepines.
FYI, benzodiazepines are in the same category as sodium pentothal and other 'truth drugs', which work by reducing a person's impulse control, making them more liable to 'spill secrets' during narco-interrogation sessions.
Fourth:
Zimmerman was not 'on duty' that evening, was not in a marked unit, wore no uniform or badge, and even if he were there are police impersonators all over the place. There was no way for Martin to have identified him as any sort of authority unless he verbally identified himself as neighborhood watch, and even then Martin could have been excused for a trace of paranoia since there are pervert and impersonators out there.
If Martin ran how did he end up beating GZ? Zimmerman says Martin ran and the police had told him not to follow so he went back to Wait for the police when he was jumped by Martin. I don't know if this is true or not, but the location of the shooting and the fact Martin would of most likely been able to outrun Zimmerman easily again back Zimmermans story.
"Zimmerman called 911 reporting that Martin was acting suspiciously, as if he was on drugs."
Martin was on drugs. The report says he tested positive for "THC -- or tetrahydrocannabinol, the active ingredient in marijuana". Zimmerman was right about that, too. So far there has been nothing to contradict any of his story.
Reading comprehension is a great thing.
Except the level of THC in Trayvon's bloodstream was too low to affect his behavior. Nice job of editing the quote there Lou, wouldn't want to confuse people with all the facts.
Which would explain why Martin was getting junk food from a store. You know, out of all the violent people I've met, I've never met a violent pothead.
Uhm, Zimmerman was on drugs, too. And his probably DID affect his mood and/or judgement.
Derp. You should go take your meds before you forget again...
jmee12 You maybe haven't met a violent pothead but the police and lawyers fight them daily all over this country. One of the #1 defense statements by thieves and assailants is this: "I was high and wasn't sure what I was doing!" And that includes pot! Number 1 excuse for almost any crime.
Until criminals stop using this as an excuse for their actions; why would the justice departments legalize pot for something that is an excuse for the crimes in the first place.
No,
but young potheads do look suspicious when looking for hiding spot to smoke
outside their parents’ home.
Yeah, I knew some ahole would try to play the "pot card". BRAINWASHED. Cannabis prohibition is a masterpiece in the art of brainwashing. So as soon as this idiot hears "THC in his system", all kinds of bells and whistles go off in his head. Hallucinations......................heaven's to freaken Betsy.......
other than the stories BY Zimmerman in which he negates himself, and the fact that having THC in the blood does not mean that you are high AT THAT MOMENT, as to the chagrin of a large portion of the american population the metabolites that break down THC (Which appear in larger amounts after consuming, and are what you actually test for) will stick around in the body for a LONG period of time. Chances are Martin would test positive if he belonged to the 60% of america that smokes often, or if he just happened to have smoked within the last 4 days.
Also, Martin was shot at intermediate range, not while wrestling on the ground. It DOES however appear that Zimmerman was actually wounded, which is a plus for him. But in the end there are 2 facts we know:
1. Zimmerman followed Martin with a gun.
2. Zimmerman shot Martin and killed him.
To me that appears that Martin was walking home (no matter what those bigots tried to claim about breaking into things, or that he was a "thug" because they own photoshop and can prove it) and there would be no incident without a gun and Zimmerman, and Zimmerman was responsible for the gun and himself.
I was also unaware that being high means that you can be randomly shot by strangers, maybe the laws have changed but vigilantism at shooting random druggies isn't in any state laws I know of.
Even if there was some in his blood I dont recall a whole lot of pot smokers starting fights or running after anyone. The only thing they may fight over is a bag of chips.
This kid was standing under a shelter waiting for the rain to stop so he could continue home. Zimmerman was told not to go after him and he did it anyway. If he got hit it was his own fault! Zimmerman was looking for a fight..not Trevon.
Martin was violent.
That's right. Trace amounts of thc typically mean weeks have passed, that would have to have been some keeeelah smoke, Dude! Meanwhile Zimmerman was confirmedly hopped up. Trayvon punched a creepy stalker in the nose, probably knocking him to the ground. I tell you what, if some white, creepy dude accosted me? Oh, Buddy, you just wait, I have years of pent up resentment against white men who have made my life hell, from my father to the idiot Bush! I can only wonder if Trayvon had a similar justifiable sense of offense?
Criminals are such reputable people why would they ever lie? Honestly, I have had a lot of experience with potheads and I have never met a SINGLE one acting REMOTELY like that, and the only people who claim what you've claimed have no experience. If they claim they were high and didn't know what they were doing chances are it WASN'T Marijuana. ALSO, who the hell smokes weed and can't figure out the most basic of situations (like hey, don't punch people)? You don't hallucinate, looks like your another tool of the prison industrial complex, gotta lock up all those SCARY SCARY potheads, make sure you let out the murderers while your at it.
So he had smoked pot, big deal. If you were walking down the street minding your business and someone started following you what would you do. A 17 year old who thought he could confront the stalker would have probably done what Martin did and try and punch them out. Teenagers aren't known for their good sense. If Zimmerman had obeyed the directions he had been given not to follow and wait for the police this wouldn't have happened.
Everybody knows that drugs affect each person differently. What is a sufficent level for one person may not be for another. If you have not met a violent pothead, then you must live in disneyland! Come to Oakland Ca. and we'll show you plenty of them. What else was in his blood? I am not saying that Martin is violent but I am saying that all the evidence is pointing in a way that the lynch mobs that are here on MSNBC should just let the legal system do its part and keep an open mind. You just want to make this a racial issue and not a legal issue, and that's not the case. It is strictly a legal issue. Looking at the police pictures of Zimmerman on the night of the shooting shows me that he was beat up pretty bad. How and why it happened is being investigated. Let the legal system do it's job. We all know that Martin was not such an innocent victim that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson said he was and why don't they show a picture of Martin when he was 12 years old? Where is a current picture of Martin? What did he look like the night of his death?
First off, spell my name right. Secondly, the criminal in question was on a mood altering drug that was prescribed by him for his anger issues. That pothead you're referring to doesn't have an excuse for anything because he's DEAD. Thirdly, I'm a Loss Prevention Manager. I deal with scumbags everyday. And I have arrested shoplifters that were high or used it as an excuse. By far, anyone I have met in the court system that can legitimately say they were under the influence of marijuana at the time of the crime being committed are not being accused of a VIOLENT CRIME. I've done this for too long. The verbage I used in reference to never meeting a violent pothead was actually said to me BY A JUDGE.
When did smoking pot become a capitol offense, punishable by death by shooting, with the shooter being a private citizen with no legal authority? Great country you people envision.
Except Martin didn't have any pot on him.
@jmcc12 - "Which would explain why Martin was getting junk food from a store. You know, out of all the violent people I've met, I've never met a violent pothead."
Come to montana. The posterchild for medical pot has been arrested for thrashing an auto repair shop, assault, and a host of other violent offenses. And just a FACTOID here chief, most people that break into cars, houses, garages aren't there to steal to buy bread, doritos, or mountain dew. They are committing those crimes to feed drug habits - more often than not that beloved Wonder Weed. Another little factoid about nonviolent pot heads, there are quite a few of em that have committed murder, rape, and other "non violent" crimes. But like you said, you probably never personally met any of them, it doesn't mean they don't exist.
I personally have never met an honest politician. And I am pretty damned sure THEY DONT EXIST...
What concerns me is that if Zimmerman is found innocent many of the punks in my community will go nusts and I bet we have mini riots. i just hope school is out for the summer if this happens. My child and I as with many parents walk their children to and from school in this neighborhood. Tension was high when they didn't arrest Zimmerman. I don't know if he is guilty or not. I wasn't there nor am I in court. The only info I get is from the news articles and the TV news and all of know how "truthful" they always are.................
Paranoia.
Jmcc12-
I believe the report above stated that the levels of THC in Mr. Martin's blood were too low to cause "performance impairment"- so perhaps Mr. Martin could have been behaving in a violent manner. According to this report, he wasn't stoned.
You're right about that. However, the fact that THC was found in Martin's blood DOES indicate that he was indeed a criminal, as per the Florida law.
Had they caught him while in possession, either for his own use, or for selling (i.e. if I judge by his friend's message about some "plant"), he would have been arrested and jailed, maybe not at 17, but at 18 he would have been.
It may not be a "big deal" in your opinion, but it is nonetheless illegal in Florida (and most States). If you are caught in possession you will be arrested, and you will either go to prison and/or pay a fine (depending on the offense/quantity).
You're right smoking pot is not a capital offense, but where did you see that he got shot because of that? He got shot because he got into a fight with a guy who had a gun, regardless of who started the confrontation, and regardless of the THC in his blood.
Let me tell you all something about trace amounts of THC, and violence as it pertains to this case:
Consider this possibility: Trayvon was an occassional pot smoker, but had not smoked any pot in the past 45 days. As a person with anger issues, pot made him a mellow guy. But on this night, he got angry and got into a fight with a guy who happened to be looking for trouble - exactly the trouble Travon started.
So lets get the facts straight:
Trayvon - pot smoker for sure - big freaking deal!!!!!! A NO ISSUE!!!!
Trayvon definately had a physical altercation with Zimmerman.
Zimmerman was definately looking for trouble that night. It's on tape.
Zimmerman shot Trayvon in self defense, but if he hadn't been looking for trouble he wouldn't be in this mess and if Trayvon hadn't been asking for trouble, he wouldn't be dead.
Anna,
My intent was to point out the number of Zimmerman defenders who seem to think it was a contributing factor and that it somehow helps to justify the shooting.
Anna, by your definition - if you drive 1 mph over the speed limit you are a criminal. If drink at a bar, you are a criminal. So you and TM have something in common.
And did you ever think that TM was defending himself against GZ. TM had no motives - GZ did.
GZ violated neighborhood watch rule #1 - only use your eyes and ears. Once he stepped out of his vehicle, he violated his duty. Carrying a weapon is a violation. There are several other rules he violated as well.
GZ provoked this encounter while carrying a gun and in clear violation of the neighborhood watch rules.
We will have to wait to see if the trial reveals any clear evidence. But based on GZs initial actions, intent and carrying a lethal weapon, the outcome should be murder or voluntary manslaughter.
So Anna, help me understand your logic. In Florida, I can be minding my own business and someone can pick a fight with me and if they start to lose they have the right to shoot me?
You cant categorize every person that smokes pot into one fun loving basket. The reasoning is your not counting the person back ground make up. Not everyone is a mild mannered or normal that when they smoke they immediately become do nothings that only want to curb their munchies. But you take a violent person and give them THC they may calm down a bit they still are capable of committing horrible crimes because of who they really are. Actually I had plenty of buddies that always got high before they did anything even commit crimes, they honestly think they do things better high.
That being said Martin isn't in that category. I believe he was just a young kid that thinks hes bullet proof. Ive been there, we've all been there at 17. He did get the best of a person he thought was stalking him. I think the whole law is BS. I know I have gotten my Butt kick in situations I was looking for the fight. I still don't see how a fight in the street of a neighborhood that you think your going to have a 17yr old kid beat you to death.
So, I can be armed 24/7 (MICHIGAN), and the moment I go out looking for people who are wrongdoing, who don't want any witnesses around, who will become violent towards witnesses, I have to disarm? I am sorry that is the most rediculous I have heard of. Tell me again why police officers carry firearms? Tell you what, when I see something, I will stay in my car, call 911, approach the car in a violent manner, I will call 911 again and tell them to bring a bag. You go ahead and do your neighborhood watch, I will stay armed.
It is really all moot at this point. The way the media has tried to whip the public into a frenzy about this case, there is no way that any trial related to it could be a fair one.
Besides, if they didn't convict on some charge, the community would be besieged by rioting.
And the state needs to recover some loss of face for that Anthony trial......
al and jessie has not helped.
What are you talking about? Besiged by riots? Your a bone head. Why? Because no matter how much evidence is presented, even if you saw pictures of Zimmerman beat up and a picture of Martin at 17 instead of 12 and Martin looked like a gangster and was high. You would still be STUPID ENOUGH to riot in the streets? Really immature on your part and quite racist on your part.
Martin was high? What story did you read? Oh wait, you didn't actually read past the headline, did you?
Go ahead, he was still on drugs and AT the time is different AFTER the event in testing. He was high, stupid.
You race baiters keep calling those who object in any of this as bigots, because you cant use any logic except your reversed bigot racism. Stop using the pathetic race card like Sharpton and Jackson, let the COURT do their job, stupid.
You have missed completely. Gun sales are up. Carry Permit filing fees are up. The sale of night vision equipment is up. Gasoline sales are up. This single event has created jobs and infused revenue into the economy.
@Mr. Accountability. If Martin was high, then so was Zimmerman. You do understand that perscription drugs are used to get high just as or if not more that marijuana. @Alan. Age a pictures have nothing to do with this case. Just because you look like a gangster and you are high doesn't give someone the right to get out of their vehicle and execute you. If that is the case someone might say that every caucasion man over 60 with white hair in Penn State gear is a pedophile. Just because Trayvon looked like a doesn't mean that he was a gangster, because the last time I checked real gangster wear three piece tailor made Italian suits.
Da doc - you are absolutely correct. There is no way that he can get a fair trial. They might as well bring in the firing squad and get it over with. I also notice that many statements are getting collapsed by the community. Too truthful I guess.
mrmill93
@Mr. Accountability. If Martin was high, then so was Zimmerman. You do understand that perscription drugs are used to get high just as or if not more that marijuana. @Alan. Age a pictures have nothing to do with this case. Just because you look like a gangster and you are high doesn't give someone the right to get out of their vehicle and execute you
If you listened to the 911 calls you would really get the impression that Zimmerman was on his way back to his vehicle when Trayvon Martin chased him down and started to assault him. People like you will probably end up causing the deaths of several completely innocent people just to satisisfy some misplaced desire for revenge because of some imagined racial slight possibly years ago.
Rick, I think that the publicity given to concealed carry permits, will save a lot of lives over time. No matter how tough someone feels, it should be apparent that you could get killed attacking a stranger for any reason. This is about the only positive I can find from the Trayvon case. Florida's robbery rate dropped drastically with the passage of CC permits laws.
Weed stays in your system for 30 days so he might not have been high at all.
In the pictures of zimmerman having the cuts. Why is he in different clothing then the ones he had on in the police video? Anyone notice their different clothing then the ones he had on that day?
Headline reads Altercation Avoidable by Zimmerman. Hmm, arent all altercations avoidable if you can run fast enough? Fat guy vs skinny kid who can run faster?
obviously zimmerman forced martin to smoke a joint before he killed him in cold racial blood. lol, nbc, everything seems so different since that first edited 911 call we heard from you.
SDskydiver71 you are so smart maybe and illegal immigrant with have your job next.
you never know joe, maybe they will one day. im sure i am no more or less smart than you. i am simply advocating for criminal justice and rule of law over social justice and mob rule.
To anyone that thinks collapsing a post, reduces the chance of someone else reading that post, you are badly mistaken. I read practically all collapsed posts, they are the most newsworthy posts of all.
I'm with you Dasvet. LMAO
This situation is not about black or white, it's about the media and the reverse racists trying to distort the facts and whip normally lawabiding people into a frenzy. In my opinion, while it is terrible that Trayvon was killed, it will be even worse if George Zimmerman was sacrificed for the selfish aims of the race baiters. The latest facts prove that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, hurt Zimmerman badly enough to fear for his life and died from a single bullet fired in desperation. Zimmerman did not know his attackers age, background or anything else other than he was being brutally attacked. Why didn't Trayvon just run away and hide? Why did he provoke and magnify the situation? Only God knows and because of that Zimmerman should be set free.
...a police report that concluded "the encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman."
...another police report indicated that Sanford police thought Zimmerman was at fault, even though they let him go after questioning him.
"Investigation reveals that Martin was in fact running generally in the direction of where he was staying as a guest in the neighborhood," it said.
Yeah Rick - let's play that game. I'll chase you down with a gun, and you just run away and hide. We'll play in my neighborhood so you'll have more of a challenge trying to hide. And if I catch you, you don't just lose the game, you lose your life - but don't provoke me and magnify the situation - if I get scratched up I'll be a martyr like GZ is to you. You're a genius - I can hardly wait to play!
That's because police can't arrest a dead person so they go after the living. I guess it gives them points for promotion.
You were not there to know WHO provoked the situation, were you? If Zimmerman would have listened the FIRST time the police told him to STOP, he would not be dealing with HIS consequences. And you are going to tell me, that if you were doing NOTHING WRONG, and being followed and questioned, you would run away and hide? Stupid.
Actually, all this proves is that Zimmerman and Martin were in a fight (not that, as you state, "Trayvon attacked Zimmerman.") There is also no indication that Zimmerman was hurt enough to justify deadly force. I hardly think a cut on your head and a bloody nose qualify as life threatening. Besides, even if Martin was beating the @!$%# out of Zimmerman, ZIMMERMAN is the one who chased Martin down, not the other way around. If you pick a fight, and let a kid get the best of you, you would get pissed off. That, more than "self-defense" is likely what got Martin shot. Zimmerman DID know Martin's approximate age. He told the dispatcher Martin looked like he was in his teens. And, finally, why should Martin have to run away and hide? Is that what you would do? If someone was chasing after you, you would run away and hide? If someone is chasing after me, I'm going to stop and ask them what the hell they think they are doing! I have the right to "stand my ground," remember?
misscreant, you said "...a police report that concluded "the encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman."
the cop wanted to charge manslaughter based on his opinion that it could have been avoided by zimmerman by zimm not exiting his vehicle to begin with. which technically is correct, but legally incorrect, as exiting your vehicle is not against the law, following someone is not against the law, and defending yourself from assault is not against the law. which is exactly why "police" dont make charges, the state does, and the d.a. trumps any cop. which is why we all must remember rule of law and forget the social justice and emotional aspect of this.
also, have you heard the direct witness statement yet in his own words? interesting stuff my brother.
ok, so if someone comes into your store to rob you, you are "ultimately" at fault if they attack you and then you shoot them? I attempt to help people getting robbed and get attacked and I shoot the robber. Am I know "ultimately responsible" as well? Both cases it was avoidable had I simply done nothing.
This has NOTHING to do with race. You had a man, trying to do what he thought was right, WHETHER IT WAS OR NOT, who was attacked by another man, 17 and over 6 foot is not what I, or he, would call a boy. He also thought it was the right thing to do by attacking Zimmerman.
They were BOTH wrong. Had Zimmerman not been there with a gun, we have no death. Had Trayvon walked, or ran, home there is no death either. Unfortunately, due to the media looking for a racist act, Zimmermans life is forever changed.
If I was attacked BY ANYONE and shot them, it is sad to think that if they were the same race as I, I walk, if they are a different race, its race related, and my life is ruined.
I totally agree with everything but the reverse stuff. Racism is racism! However,...
The kid tried to kick his a$$ like his dad probably taught him to do. My retired Master Chief dad taught me the same thing and I'm a girl. That's what happens to you when you follow someone in the dark without identifying yourself or what you want:
You will get your a$$ kicked!!
Yeah Rick - let's play that game! I'll hunt you down with a gun, and you just run and hide. We'll play in my neighborhood so you'll have more of a challenge trying to find a hiding place. And if I find you, you don't just lose the game, you lose your life. But don't provoke me and magnify the situation: if I get scratched up, I'm become a martyr like George Zimmerman is to you. You're a genius! I can't wait to play.
Misscreant that is not what the report says! You just made that up.
ok, so if someone comes into your store to rob you, you are "ultimately" at fault if they attack you and then you shoot them?
Actually, this argument supports Martin since Zimmerman was the one who stalked him. And I agree, If someone is following you and then approach you, you should be able to defend yourself. Martin wasn´t doing anything illegal, he was NO DANGER to Zimmerman when Zimmerman started to follow him.
Alan,
I hope your post is a joke. If not did, you read the story at all?
Absolutely! Well said betty!
Why didn't Trayvon just run away and hide? Why did he provoke and magnify the situation?
The kid tried to kick his a$$ like his dad probably taught him to do. My retired Master Chief dad taught me the same thing and I'm a girl. That's what happens to you when you follow someone in the dark without identifying yourself or what you want:
You will get your a$$ kicked!!
YES, doolittle !!!! My self defense instructor taught me the same thing :) He also said not to wait for any questions, if they get close enough, turn aroun and " WHAM ...."
I suppose none of this would have happened if George Zimmerman had not been born. (But don't tell the baby killers.)
The professional "Left" in this country complain of "political prisoners." For once, they are right. George Zimmerman is a political prisoner, jailed to placate the professional race-baiters and their fellow travelers in the media. But, that's only half of it. There will be blood in the streets -- literally -- without a conviction.
Second degree murder? Sorry, it isn't there.
Now, we wait.
an emotional response which leaves out the most critical piece of information, who initiated the physical violence? if zimm assaulted martin, and then martin started getting the best of zimm, and zimm shot him, then zimm is not guilty of murder-2, he is guilty of murder-1 and should fry. if, however, martin initiated the assault, and here is the hard part.....then he got what was coming to him and it is self defense.
your self defense instructor sounds like he excels at teaching you to initiate an assault. while this may be a self defense instructors opinion, and is AWESOME in the movies, it is against the law and could end up with you being shot. see martin story for details.
SD skydriver, so what ´would you teach girls to do when a strange man is stalking them - aka , following them ???? I mean, if there is a chance, I would go somewhere - a store, for example. But, if I do not have that option, what do you suggest I do ? Negotiate ? Just give in and hope he will "only" rape me and won´t kill me afterwards. I am sorry, but if someone is stalking you, your best bet is to assume he is a predator and act accordinly. As for my self defense instructor - this little "assault" teaching of his actually saved a life of his 15 years old student - awesome chick - who did not "wait for her stalker to show bad intentions" and not only she has managed to knock him out cold , but the police arrived before he came to it. One DNA test later and long story short, he is in a prison FOR life.
talons-1110240 how can you say both of them are wrong? lets see..zimmerman GOT OUT OF HIS CAR and either stalked this guy or confronted him or both. if he was concerned for his life he should have stayed in his car and let the police handle it.
@Desi0236 - And if you KNEW or remembered what was said about the bad element in that neighborhood "ALWAYS GETTING AWAY", and your neighborhood was bad enough to have a neighborhood watch in the first place, you might understand WHY someone would keep an eye on where someone was going or what have you.
2ndly, NO ONE knows for sure the EXACT happenings of that night. Even the 2 involved can't tell you the whole truth, even IF Martin was alive to recount the story. There are ALWAYS 3 sides to any incident, any altercation. The 2 parties involved and the truth. But here is the real question you should be asking yourself. IF someone YOU DONT RECOGNIZE is in your neighborhood, dressed in a hoodie, wouldn't it raise your suspicion?
This is just further food for thought. And I am not pointing fingers at the police, but more at the DAs office here. IF there have been break ins, vandalism, and such in your neighborhood, and the "bad guy" ALWAYS gets away because the police can't get their in time, how many crimes are you willing to have committed before you become a bit more proactive in protecting your home? IF the DAs actually prosecuted the robbers, the break ins, the vandals, the sex offenders, the wanna be thugs, the dopers, ect and didn't play plea bargain wheel and deal games, and actually sought MAX SENTENCES for every offense, do you think it would be a deterrent that might LESSEN the crime rate so that neighborhood watches weren't necessary? As you know, MANY of the crimes committed are committed by REPEAT OFFENDERS, Habitual Offenders, and people with criminal histories. So WHY are they back out on the streets? WHY are our laws so damned soft on punishing the criminal. Isn't it possible, plausible, or understandable that some may see the need to NOT TRUST THE SYSTEM in catching the bad guy? I mean, let's be perfectly honest here. If I see someone in my yard that don't belong, I am not going to hide under my bed until they either leave or the police shows up. That is called protecting your property. And I can assure you, I sure as hell don't hesitate approaching someone I have not seen before in my neighborhood acting suspiciously, and finding out what the hell they are doing there. Otherwise, that "it isn't my business" mentality will eventually be it is "your house burgled" reality. That is the purpose of a neighborhood watch program. To detect, deter, and report. And if you think that stupid neighborhood watch sign will deter someone INTENT on burglary or robbery or rape, think again. Deterrance is that someone challenging you for your identity and your purpose for being there.
arby, i hear ya. i guess i would teach my daughter, if i had one, the same thing i taught my son. run. call the police. get away. do whatever you can to put distance between the person who you consider to be a threat. if that person catches you anyways and assaults you, then fight for your life. what do you do if that person catches you, doesnt assault you, but initiates conversation? asks what you are doing there? obviously you do not have to answer him, or you could, it really doesnt matter, but there is no evidence anywhere, in nbc's reporting or otherwise, that zimm ever attempted to restrain or restrict martin in any way shape or form. if zimm had so much as laid a hand on martin, if only to restrain and hold him for the police, then martin would have had the LEGAL right to assault zimm and beat the crap out of him, if then zimm realizes he isnt going to win the fight and then shoots martin, game over, zimm is guilty of murder. it depends on who initiated the physical contact, do you know what i mean??? all of the other evidence is critical too, as critical as who initiated the first assault.
also, please find and listen to the audio of the direct witness, as it is also applicable and refutes nbc's early reporting of this. put emotion aside, we are a country of equal justice, not social justice. remember rule of law, shun mob rule!
arby, and in response to the example you gave, it is a great example! but completely different circumstances. you have to see that. like i said, it is a culmination of ALL of the evidence, not any single piece. in this particular case, the alleged "victim" was in better physical condition, by all accounts, then the alleged "murderer". martin, a football player should have no problem getting away from by what i would describe as a pudgy guy. different scenario than a 15 year old girl. do we agree on that at least?
God, some of the comments on here make me sick.
i agree lib50, some of these comments are disturbing. especially the ones that want to put social justice over criminal justice, rule of law over mob rule, dont you agree?
A lot of people are passing judgement on information that is completely wrong. A lot more are passing judgement on information that took weeks if not months to collect. In the heat of the situation, you are not going to take the time to consider all the possibilities. Unless you are a diehard liberal you are not going to take the time to ask the motives of the person that is beating the crap out of you.
There are a lot of places in this country where you will be challenged if it is even remotely possible that you don't belong there so all you manly men need to get over yourselves, answer the questions and go about your business. Or maybe you prefer being dead over the slight possibility that someone may call you a sissy.
All of you sound nuts. I'm glad i do have a car now so i dont have to walk. Its crazy that you make it sound like someone should let the person follow them. If you make lots of turns and run and he still following you at night. Your suppose to just wait for this person to come to you. A person that is not a cop and you dont know. Please don't have any children you will instantly get them killed found in woods and other places. These are the worse decades cant believe the thinking most of you have. Don't protect yourself from a stranger anymore.
@WILL THE WATCHER
The only time I have heard this quote was from Zimmerman HIMSELF, so that would justify OPTION, correct? Or can you show me PROOF where that exact neighborhood has multiple reports of these criminals "ALWAYS GETTING AWAY"??
Yes, It would. But if I really thought there was an issue, I would call the police and DO WHAT THEY TOLD ME TO!!! NOT take the law into my own hands, as I believe vigilantism is still ILLEGAL. And it was RAINING...why would you think ANYTHING about a hoodie?
I agree fully with this. I do not trust in our system, as it has done wrong by many people I know, and not done what it should have with the "BAD GUYS". But again, do you believe it is okay to go shoot anybody you feel is a threat to society?
BUT, simple fact here is:
Yes, that is what they are there for. NOT to STALK, CHASE, and SHOOT someone because they THINK they look suspicious. That is (unfortunately) the job of LAW ENFORCEMENT, and that is why THEY are trained to do so. IF Mr.Zimmerman would have approached in a CORRECT MANOR, ie: stating who he was, and why was questioning Martin, we would not be having this discussion right now.
In my PERSONAL OPTION (making it clear) this case has nothing to do with race. A PERSON is DEAD due to bad decision making. You do not pull out a gun, unless you intend to use it. I own many guns, and I can tell you I NEVER pulled it out unless I have FULL INTENT on using it. Mr.Z had full knowledge of what he was doing, and thus, as I said before, HE, like EVERYONE else would, has to deal with the consequences. If Martin was your family, friend, or even just someone you knew, would YOU NOT WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED?? WHY he is DEAD for just trying to walking home??
And one of those people you approach, just might be very defensive, and have a gun, and YOU would be on the other end, dead. Would be very tragic, and I am sure YOUR family and friends would want JUSTICE for that horrible persons SEVERE ACTIONS, correct??
Not really a lot of content, yet. Its not clear at all to me how the prosecution intends to spin evidence.
Yes, the truth hurts. What say all you bigots now?
What...an innocent little kid with THC in his blood stream?
hahahah right!! And a big racist brutal man with legal drugs - oh wait the article says he was on a 'prescription' - which leads the reader to believe it was in his system when it only means he had a prescription for anxiety medication - who cares!!?
You just made the case for legalization.
So all of a sudden smoking marijuana instantly transforms you into a hardened criminal that attacks random people without provocation? Is that really what you're saying?
The Media Hyped inocence is starting to fade, so drop the school boy pictures.
Last time I checked it was illegal to possess or smoke marijuana. This coupled with getting caught with a pot pipe, stolen jewelry, a screwdriver for breaking and entering and marijuana residue in his backpack solidifies that he was is a criminal and was living the gangasta lifestyle, with his grillz and tattoos.
Martin is a byproduct of his parents awesome parenting skills. Maybe they should consider bringing Martin's parents up on child neglect and child endangerment once the smoke clears.
the following link lists OTC DRUGS, CONDITIONS, AND DISEASES which can result in POSITIVES on tests for illicit drugs.
nsaids, for instance, can yield a positive for cabbanoids.
so, let's also find out if trayvon had used any number of very innocent 'drugs' (even b12 can cause a positive) which might have given a false positive.
http://passyourdrugtest.com/false-positives.htm
yeah ...right...Trayvon was doing B12...LOL..! You can't realy be that naive or are you just 14 and trying to pimp your pass-your-drug test site.
Was not a urinalysis, it was a blood test. A blood test rules out all other possibilities.
What a joke, in Taiwan this case would have been solved the next day. Simple case, an armed man confronted an unarmed man and shot him dead. The armed man had the advantage and should have between able to control the situation. Murder one. The other man was drunk, under the effect of drugs? He should have been shot in the leg not in the heart. Murder one.
lousy deflection, braveheart. Did you actually look at all the meds listed at ANY of the links?
It's looking less-and-less like murder to me.
I would like to see really how Treyvon Martin really looks...... Stop showing a picture when he was...what in 8th grade....
LOVE THE MEDIA BIAS... any doctoring of 911 tapes should be illegal when they are trying to convict Zimmerman before his trial... I wonder if defendants on trial can sue the media for jury tampering???
Missed the days when the event was the story not pandering to a specific group or political viewpoint....
How about back to reporting the news?
Dave,
Look at the picture of Trayvon that's in the article, it's the hoodie picture that the Zimmerman backers say MSNBC never shows.
78 witnesses being called to the stand and other than maybe one person, not a single other person saw anything. All the evidences including the polygraph test completely corroborate the defendants story. Other than because a higher up authority figure appointed a prosecutor and told them to press charges and attempt to convict, this is a complete waste of tax payers money. 78 witnesses and not a single eye witness other than the one that corroborates the defendants story.
I also read that the victim was also a member of a school football team. He has drugs in his system but yet the school lets him play. Says something about his school as well.
angel - I think msnbc should be charged with obstruction of justice and someone should go to jail or maybe msnbc should be silenced. There is no way Zimmerman is going to get a fair trial now. It doesn't matter whether he is guilty or not.
VirginiaDemocrat78, that is an old picture, not from the night of the incident. Martin was wearing a black hoodie that night, not a white hoodie.
Bing Search "Trayvon Martin, 711 survaiance video" and see for your self what color hoodie he was wearing. You will also see how big he is, his waist is higher than the counter and he is twice the size as the store clerk.
DaveM - well I guess they probably have a few from the Funeral Home, Hes dead by the way, so thats how he looks right now...DEAD!
Jeff:
Nice try.... I am talking about the CURRENT pictures from his facebook account with the gold teeth and teh tattoos. Not the 8th grade picture that we constantly see.
And NO no one is asking to see his "dead" picture from the funeral home...
Wow I'm not on anyone's side here - i could give a sh*t about this case (perhaps I should be a juror) - but talk about skewing the evidence. Perhaps the only suspicious people he witnessed were in fact black men!!?? Doesn't seem to be a stretch there. And the kid was on drugs - just as he said. So what the hell is this nonsense about "below the level that medical studies indicate would have caused "performance impairment." If anybody knows anything about drugs, especially marijuana, you would know the same amount can react much differently in different people. This is a totally irresponsible statement. And then i like how they try to name the legal prescription drugs that Zimmerman is on (anxiety medication - big wow everybody is on that) just to even the score. Sorry, but reading this article it's clear theres a bias here - and the writer wants you to go after Zimmerman whether he's guilty or not.
Toxicology tests found elements of the drug in the teenager's chest blood -- 1.5 nanograms per milliliter of one type (THC), as well as 7.3 nanograms of another type (THC-COOH) -- according to the medical examiner's report. There was also a presumed positive test of cannabinoids in Martin's urine. It was not immediately clear how significant these amounts were.
Concentrations of THC routinely rise to 100 to 200 ng/ml after marijuana use, though it typically falls to below 5 ng/ml within three hours of it being smoked, according to information on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's website.
While some states have zero-tolerance policies for any drug traces for driving while impaired, others set certain benchmarks, the website of California's Department of Alcohol and Drug Programs notes. In Nevada, that equates to 2 ng/ml for THC and 5 ng/ml for THC-COOH -- also known as marijuana metabolite. The cutoff level in Ohio is 2 ng/ml for THC and 50 ng/ml for THC-COOH.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/17/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html
The media has certainly done a lousy job on this, that is for sure. But you are clearly judging this case (that you don't care about) based upon their continued incompetent delivery of information and you might be confused.
Especially about the marijuana part - if YOU knew anything about marijuana testing then you would know that trace amounts stay in the fat cells for weeks...it is entirely possible for medical science to say that he had smoked marijuana sometime in the last few days. Just as it is entirely possible for them to say that he was not under the influence, despite what they just said.
I am not on any anxiety medication and would rather prefer that people walking around looking for trouble while carrying guns were not either. Medicated? Fine. Medicated and packing heat while trolling looking for black kids to harass? Not so fine.
And stoned people don't assault people. But then, you know that already, don't you?
Zimmerman was on drugs as well...mood/mental/emotion altering drugs. And what exactly was Trayvon doing that looked so "suspicious" while coming from the store and talking on the phone in the rain? Skin color alone does not make a person suspicious...prove that he was casing houses as a burglar would, then we can talk. I should now be apt to think and be on guard that anytime a white male approaches me if I'm in a neighborhood other than my own I am likely going to be shot because I might look "suspicious" to them and I don't belong, even though I might be minding my own business and my very well be visiting someone in that neighborhood, or passing through to get from Point A to Point B.
I can remove race from this whole story and the bottom line is Zimmerman tried to act like a person of authority. He felt this way because he had a gun---big, bad and unstoppable. He happened to perhaps get his butt kicked in the process of harassing someone, invading their personal space, and trying to be a superhero for a crime that was not even happening (maybe he had ESP like a superhero and knew that a crime was going to be committed). Because he couldn't fight like a MAN, he pulled out a gun. If I approach someone to confront them after following them in vehicle and then by foot, I should not be surprised if they react defensively. But, according to some, I have the right to shoot this person because I might be getting my butt kicked in the process of evoking a confrontation. Please....
Misscreant your cred is way low. First you lied about the report and now you and everyone knows that drugs affect everyone differently. We don't know how Martin was acting but we do know that he was high and that he accosted Zimmerman. Why don't you stop your lynch mob mentality and let the legal system do it's job. It doesn't need your humble opion and your false claims.
All of you and George Zimmerman both need to be working for the DEA and the ATF, I mean if you can look at a kid from 50 ft away in the rain and tell that he had smoked some weed.
I personally don't think that even a professionally trained drug sniffing dog could have even detected weed from 50 ft away in the rain.
But I suppose the kid having had a puff on a joint is sufficient grounds to be summarily executed by a wacky volunteer neighborhood watchman, especially a guy that suffers from anxiety and is being medically treated for his condition.
Alan, you are wrong. You keep saying that Misscreant is making things up and so forth, but you are the one making things up. No one ever said (including the reports) that Martin was "high", and YOU are making that up. Why don't YOU let the legal system do its job and stop calling people liars? You weren't there and you are just spouting words making up what you think happened. At least Misscreant is quoting and not calling names and making things up.
Tell me it isnt so! MSNBC would never be biased and race baiting (cough! cough!)
Mike..it was reported that Zimmerman prescribed Adderal which is a pretty strong amphetamine (speed) and is not used to treat depression. Much more dangerous than weed!
Here's a few side effects of Adderall:
"new or worsening mental or mood problems (eg, aggression, agitation, anxiety, delusions, depression, hallucination, hostility);"
Very nasty little drug. Just because a person's dealer happens to be a pharmacist doesn't make them any less a druggie!
Thanks ram!
I believe the other drug was used to treat insomnia. Go figure!
Adderall is prescribed almost exclusively for the treatment of ADHD. If the dosage is appropriate, those side effects are rare! Since Zimmerman was also prescribed Restoril, which is an anti-anxiety medication, it is reasonable to conclude that Zimmerman may have been diagnosed with ADHD, with (common) accompanying anxiety or insomnia. That assumes he was taking the medications as directed. It is important to note that Adderal is not a blood-buildup medication, i.e., it does not build up in the blood stream until it reaches and "effective level". The initial dosage is usally the effective dosage. It washes out of the system usually within 18-24 hrs Restoril is not usually prescribed for long periods because of tolerance issues.
Mike,
It means that he was not high. He could have smoked it any time within the previous 30 days and it would have been found in his blood. The low levels of it found in his system means that he was not under it's influence at the time of death. I smoke pot, and anyone that does would never consider it a real drug, it's much less impairing than alcohol or even Restoril.
The fact that Zimmerman was taking a very strong sleeping pill and was under it's influence at the time is much more telling. I've taken Restoril many times, and am extremely familiar with it's effects. It's incredibly strong stuff. If anyone was "high" that night, it was Zimmerman.
Tom,
I'm sure you're also aware that Adderall is widely abused and very addictive. I know people that have gotten scripts just because they like speed.
And they don't take it as directed and probably don't report negative side effects.
Gee, how come they don't show the photo's of Martin as a young hoodlum, flipping everyone off? Or more recent photos, instead of those of a kid? Media sure plays it don't they? I feel Zimmerman could have avoided the confrontation if he had kept Martin in sight and waited on arrival of the police, instead of getting out of his car. He still may get off or further see the charge reduced to a lesser degree of manslaughter. But the news media, portraying Martin like he was an angel is not called for. Show his adult age pictures, not grade school.
I'd guess that either the family stopped taking his picture when he was 12 - or, <gasp!> he doesn't look quite so much like a sympathetic child in later photos. I agree that nationwide, the "news" is skewing the news.
Does it really matter what photo they show? Hudlum or junkie he's still were wrongfully killed.
The point is that from the very beginning the media has tried to skew the facts on this one...including editing out part of the 911 tapes. This very likely would not have happened if the victim had been white. It is also interesting that the broken nose, black eyes, head lacerations and minor back injury on Zimmerman , compared to 2 injuries on Martin....knuckles injured and one gunshot wound, tend to back up everything Zimmerman said happened. There has been no evidence yet that has indicated that anything he said was false. Hmmm. There has been an attempt at the very start to skew this...and that is why it does matter. Facts don't seem to be important here.
Why does it matter what he looked like at the time? If he had dreds with sagging pants does that makes murder more acceptable? WHO CARES WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE NOW. he was a MINOR who was gunned down in cold blood. I guess nobody is rebellious as a teenager. We are all perfect angles. GET REAL!
The US doesn't have 'news' anymore. What we have are nation-wide propaganda outlets that push pro-con views on issues to manipulate their audience while they pretend to be 'just reporting'. Goebbels, eat your heart out!
pburgrunner
Does it really matter what photo they show? Hudlum or junkie he's still were wrongfully killed.
Thanks for your stupid comment without any logic or merit.
It doesn't take a genius to fugure out that this is a violent race-hate crime, and Zimmerman killed a racist attacker. (1) It is now confirmed that it is Zimmerman that was the one crying for help. (2) Trayvon's only physical damage to his body (except of course the gun shot wound) is cuts and abrasions on his hand. (3) Could this have been avoided? Yes, Trayvon could have decided to not let Zimmerman near him, called 911 himself, or had not been racially belligerent. One thing that has not been stated so far as I know is, where was the killing done in relation to Zimmerman's vehicle, and/or where was Trayvon when Zimmerman called the 911 dispatcher because, I have a hunch that it is Trayvon that chose to closed the distance between them, and of course, he did not have to do that.
It doesn't matter what this kid was doing, even if he was kicking in someone's front door. Zimmerman can't take the law in his own hands by trying to detain someone who wasn't inside his own home. Zimmerman doesn't own the streets, nor does he own a neighbors house. You can't shoot someone unless they are in "your" home and you are fearing for your life. This kid just had some candy. So unless Zimmerman can show he can be killed by Skittles, and was standing inside his own home, he is going to prison.
BP the grape
Careful there BP. 776 says he can if he observes someone in the act of committing a felony.
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
Why not show a picture of Zimmerman from when he was 12 then?.... you know since it "doesn't matter".
First of all the pictures of martin are recent he was 16 and murdered at barely 17. @nd Regarding there not being enough evidence for domestic abuse charges HIS EX WIFE WAS GRANTED AN ORDER OF PROTECTION!
2nd regarding the scars disappearing and reappearing again, as an artist and a experienced video editor 1.I know the videos can easily be manipulated by editing and know photoshop is great for changinging images. In the police video at certain points when he is walking through the hall you can see he does not have these scars, but then they magically appear. And the scar above if it is real or even zimmerman is definitely not a scar that would occur if someone is getting their head repeatedly pounded on the concrete to the point of possibly wearing diapers for the rest of their lives1 This is what his own brother said on CNN while being interviewed by Pierce Morgan. The Zimmerman's themselves have told so many versions of the story, after they are caught in a lie with one they come out with another version, Zimmerman is a medicated sociopathic sicko who brought a gun and set up a scenerio where he would be able to use it, BELIEVE ME HE WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN STOPPED HIS CAR IF HE DID NOT HAVE THAT GUN, HE KNOWS HOW RACIST OUR SOCIETY IS SO HE CHOSE A VICTIM THAT HE COULD BUILD THIS STEREOTYPICAL STORY AROUND HE WOULD BE UNDER THE JAIL OR DEAD IF IT WAS A WHITE GUY. DEAD DUG UP AND KILLED AGAIN IF IT WAS A WHITE WOMAN! but who knows WHAT ELSE HIS JUDGE DADDY HAS HAD TO GET HIM OUT OF!
pedro i know you are only telling your twisted backwards version because you are probably hispanic and feel some kind of racial solidarity> it does not matter how big treyvon was how many totaaly unrelated crimes were occuring< treyvon was not acting suspicious or committing any crimes tapes show him in &_eleven buying candy> hey why don"t we dig up every white kid's record that was murdered by a predator heyi am sure many of those teen girls who have been killed have smoked weed among other things have partied till they fell out drunk and many if not all fought desperately for their lives many of them along with treyvon were standing their ground! but were any of them made into a criminal did we not prosecute and convict their killers and some of the killers of these white teen girls are on death row! did we allow their killers to go free because these white children were fighting for their lives they happen to break the f***kers nose or scratch his eyes out or maybe they almost killed his ass when trying to save there own lives. so treyvon is not deserving of justice like many of the white victims before and after him who were killed george zimmerman was not an official anything of the law no uniform no badge and no legal authority to even question treyvon.
in any persons eyes he is following at night he is no different than any of the many white predators that have killed white kids after following them at night or even gaining their trust by pretending to be something their not. people put your hate and racism aside this is an extremely dangerous person who put himself in a position where he could hurt and kill. he also was a bouncer before and other bouncers complained that he was extremely and unneccesarily aggressive. many predators or psychotic people put themselves in a position were they will have a access to their victims or where they can have a story to support their behaviour, example many child predators and molesters have been found to be teachers or child care providers! george zimmerman tried several times to be a police officer but was rejected and he attacked a police officer. he set himself up as a fake cop where he could still carry out his murderous desires! people wake up he is a danger to society.
Only thing this shows is that blacks everywhere are still as low as blacks from Virginia. Something I thought mostly only happened here. Makes me feel sad that the racist stuff is still everywhere in the USA.
they should show a pic of zimmerman as a 1st grader...
As long as they don't show a picture of his ultrasound in womb. Then some people will really want Zimmerman dead.
I cant see any sarcasm! LOL
You let a prozac addict walk about with a loaded weapon and wonder why it happened? Chances are Zimmerman doesn't even remember because he was so out of it. Great that they issue carry permits to psycos. The voices in his head did it. Those were also great self inflicted wounds he had there! Good show Zim!
Squidword, you are making stuff up. Z was not taking Prozac. He was taking an anziolytic, Tamazepam. And there is no way he self inflicted wounds on the back of his head because he did not have time to do so. The paramedics said he had some small wounds on the back of his head. Bad show Squid!
MSNBC has it wrong,. He was taking Temazapam, not Tamazapam. Not sure where they came up with the name Tamazpam.
Never met a violent pothead lol. That's just reefer madness talk from the right wing losers. As far as Zimmy's "injuries" I've probably done worse to my nose scratching it myself accidentally. Ultimately it was avoidable as they say. A right winger sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong is what caused this incident. There's a special place in hell for the holier than thou types like him and his supporters.
I agree with you generally. However, I am a right winger who smoked pot in high school too. You shouldn't generalize about "right wingers" like that because it seems you don't know much about them. Just sayin.
I am with you on the marijuana part. "there was THC in his system, thats MARIJUANA!" Ohhhh, well that explains everything, obviously made him into a crazed violent thug. Of course it could have been from getting high a couple of weeks ago. And marijuana causes NO violent tendencies (quite the opposite actually). But lets demonize the kid and lay fault on him for his own death because he smoked a little weed?! I dont pretend to know who was at fault but I am certain it had nothing whatsover to do with smoking a little weed.
Whatever the case, its in the court and they view the evidence, not biased media race baiting, followers or non of dope use OR anything anyone might THINK.
Only unavoidable till Martin acted more suspicious, and then noticed Zimmerman and panicked.
Anyone would be within their rights to be suspicious or Martin(even if Obama's own imaginary son would have looked like him). Stranger to the area, acting suspiciously running and "hiding from rain drops" as he ducks into and out of cover.
Suspended kid, on drugs in a neighborhood where he had never been seen before. No reason to be suspicious...get a clue. He drew suspicion on himself, and ran when he realized he was being watched, and then fought with authority and started beating the authority. He clearly drew suspicion upon himself, and did not act sensibly. Deserve to die for it? no, but he played an active part in his own death.
I think you are missing the real point...or avoiding it all together. Trayvon's toxicolligy report shows that he was not as "innocent" as he was played to be by his supporters. His blood and urine test both show that he did have a propensity for breaking the law...whether you agree with the lawa or not. The reason he was shot is that he assaulted and beat a homeowner. Many of Trayvon's supporters are NOW trying to twist the evidence including the only eyewitness to the beatings that put Trayvon on top of Zimmerman beating him MMA style (wow how specific was this eyewitness) while Zimmerman cried out for help. Even Trayvon's dad admiitted to the police that the voice crying out for help was nott that of his son Trayvon. So why didn't he come out publicly with this admission long before the statement was made available. Trayvon Martin was shot because he assaulted a stranger, not because he smoked pot and certainly not because he was black....simply because he assaulted a stranger. He apparently had no idea Zimmerman was armed when he committed this assault or he would have simply brought his iced tea and skittles home.
Scary. Zimmerman is what I imagine Satan would look like. God Bless Trayvon and his family.
You must imagine Satan as a hispanic man.
Whats scary is your imagination.
polysci dude,
You have my vote for most idiotic comment of the day. Poly sci eh? I have a hard time believing that after your comment.
This has to be to most ignorant bs comment I have read on here to date. Are you high, yet AGAIN?
polysci - It is not to your mental health to drop acid and type at the same time.
poly sci is what you major in if you are in the bottom quartile
An astute observation.
If those pictures are allowed in at trial (and I see no reason why they wouldn't be), and even 1 witness testifies that Trayvon was on top of and attacking Zimmerman (as I have seen stated by an African-American adult witness who was interviewed on CNN), then no way in hell is Zimmerman going to be convicted.
I do not know exactly what happened that night, and if Zimmerman or Trayvon initiated the physical conflict, but without knowing exactly, no way can you convict anyone here.
Really? you think Zimmerman's "injuries" are sufficient to prove that he was afraid for his life? They saiid Trayvon's autopsy reports only show 1/4" cut on ONE finger. No other injuries.
Zimmerman should never gotten out of his truck. He was supposed to be "observing", not confronting.
I think so. If some guy was beating me and on top of me and I feared for my life then I would shoot his sorry butt. You would too. What would you do say excuse me sir are you going to harm me because if you are I will have to shoot you? No. it happens very quickly and no one knows how they will react.
Have you ever been in a fight, Alan ? If Martin was beating Zimmerman as Zimmerman describes, his hands would show way more than a one tiny cut. It takes a toll on your hands to punch someone. Why do you think boxers wear gloves ? I watched quite a few fights and never seen a guy come out of a fight - no matter how short - with a one cut on one finger. And Zimmerman´s claim that Martin slammed his head into concrete ??? BS. Zimmerman looks like someone who took one punch. Yeah, I might be wrong, but I highly doubt Martin "brutally beat him"
Alan is right. Let's make a bunch of assumptions: Zimmerman chased him, started the fight etc. At some point, Martin is pounding Zimmerman. For all of you who think Zimmerman is guilty of murder, at what point is he allowed to defend himself? It's pretty obvious he can't fight (he was getting his face pounded MMA style per an eyewitness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, closed his door and called 911 so did not see the shot, as reported by local news here in Orlando). Is Zimmerman supposed to lay there, cover up, and hope it stops? Even if Zimmerman started/caused the whole unfortunate,terrible event, at some point he still has to be allowed to defend himself. Or is Martin simply allowed to beat Zimmerman to death?
David, if you START a fight and then kill a guy, you cannot claim a self defense. That is why he would be guilty of murder. YOU START the fight - the other guy is defending himself. Just because you are loosing and you have a gun and shoot him doesn´t make it self defense.
None of you were there but you can comment on what Zimmerman felt and if he was in fear of his life. Some of you are the same kind of people who think 911 calls will protect you will you "wait" are in violation of the fact that it is the difference of maybe 30 minutes vs 3000 fps with a .357 Mag. I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by six and NONE of you know WHAT happened in the case of "fear of life." Your the same kind of people who expect someone else to defend your sorry a$$ instead of having the ball$ to do it yourselves.
Zimmerman said that Trayvon at some point was trying to get his gun, and that they both struggled for it. Now try to guess who won that round? That to me would make anyone afraid for their life, if someone was attacking you and the attacker went for your gun, wouldn't you thinking; if he gets in control of my gun I am good as dead after he already demonstrated clear violent intent.
Why was Zimmerman outside of his vehicle in the first place? Did that kid break down his car door and drag him out? And how was it that this all happen far away from the vehicle, up in a yard and no where near a sidewalk? Zimmerman is not a cop, and he sure doesn't own the streets, so he had no business walking up on that kid at all. Not even a cop can do what Zimmerman did because there was no probably cause. Being suspicious of someone doesn't give anyone the right to approach someone.
Actually Z can do what he wants and he can confront someone if he wants to. It is called freedom. What, he isn't allowed to get out of his car? Also Z is not bound by any constraints that the police are bound to follow. FYI, the cops DO NOT NEED probable cause to stop someone on foot. In fact all an officer needs is the sincere belief that a crime might have or could take place to stop someone. The police can even search a person on a gut feeling for weapons. I guess you have never heard of a Terry Stop. Look up Terry v. Ohio. The cops can briefly detain and question a person. The police can say they thought the person looked suspicious based on their professional experience. If the person acts "funny" they can search the person for weapons. No need for probable cause, a hunch based on experience is all that is needed.
Arby,
This may be your opinion but it is patently false. Read the law. IF GZ started the fight (which has not been proven at all) then yes, he loses SYG coverage but he still has traditional self defense law on his side.
ArbyH,
You wrote: “If Martin was beating Zimmerman as Zimmerman describes, his hands would show way more than a one tiny cut.” Do you have a photo of the cuts on Martin’s hands? If you don’t, then how can you say what size the cuts are relative to the size of Martin’s hands? You are begging the question. You assume the cuts are tiny when you have no way of knowing, one way or the other.
Clearly Arby, you’ve never been in a fight in your life. Not everyone tears the skin on their knuckles when they punch someone in the face. Can you explain why?
Arby, I highly doubt you know what you’re talking about. You have no professional credentials as a doctor or as an Emergency Medical Technician, so the readers have no more reason to lend any credence to your subjective opinion, than they do mine.
And you know even less about law than yo do about fistfights.
You wrote: “David, if you START a fight and then kill a guy, you cannot claim a self defense.” Is that so Perry Mason? Please tell the readers what law school you went to, and what law book you got that piece of information from?
You wrote: “YOU START the fight - the other guy is defending himself. Just because you are loosing and you have a gun and shoot him doesn’t make it self defense.” Your legal reasoning is laughable. If you have any legal evidence to support this claim, please present it; otherwise, it’s hogwash.
Once Zimmerman got out of his truck and staked this person he lost. You cant stand your ground while you are hunting.
he was not hunting. he was letting the police know where the thug was going
...and the THUG happened to be going home. How about that??? Maybe he should've let him go there.
Are you a law enforcement official? I never heard that one! Did you just make that up?
HowsThatSo,
How would you know where Martin was headed? It is a big assumption on your part to claim he was headed home or anywhere.
To the press- where is a picture of Martin when older than 12? Shenanigans already!!!
howsthatso - "...and the THUG happened to be going home."
And yet the girl Martin was on the phone with told him to get out of there but he said he wasn't going to leave... he wasn't going anywhere once he saw a little hispanic man he thought he could "teach a lesson".
Quite a twist on the evidence eh Hanover? Zimmerman is guily for "getting out og his car"! Martin is not guilty even after being witnessed assaulting Zimmerman. What a fantasy land you live in!
Your an idiot because Martin Confronted Him, get your facts straight
It's surprising that most people are not being rational about this issue. The question should be, why did Zimmerman disregard the dispatcher's instruction not to follow Treyvon? The confrontation, struggle and eventually murder would'nt have happened in the first place. He acted beyond his capacity as a vigilante. What relevance has marijuana in Treyvon's system got to do with Zimmerman's confrontation. He had no way of knowing what the kid had smoked (whether on that day or days before).
Zimmerman's picture showed they got into a fight after the confrontation (that could be avoided), but a 28 year old could not fight back against a 17 year old and had to use his gun. During the struggle he would have known that Treyvon was not armed.
Bottomline is: he couldn't fight back.
Since when did Zimmerman stop Martin from walking home? If he simply HAD gone home, instead of coming back and punching Mr. Zimmerman in the face (felonious assault) - there would be no problem
...but MSNBC keeps on trying and trying to convict Zimmerman
Hanover,
You are begging the question, twice.
You assume Zimmerman is stalking and hunting. You have no way of know either of these circumstances, because a court of law has yet to rule on this case.
Thank you for playing.
Try again later.
Zimmerman's chance of getting a fair verdict will drpend almost solely on the racial composition of the jury. Thanks, Obama.
AMAZING!!!!
New pics of Zimmerman released but still NO updated photo of Trayvon! Absolutely, incredibly, negligent of MSNBC. I think I need a new home page.
By the way dumb @ss's there is no "allegedly shot" Zimmerman admits he shot Trayvon.
oOne of my services buds sent me pics of travon, as he looked prior to the night of the shooting. I'm 6'2 and I think I would have little or no second thoughts. F'er looks like a thug, Not the apple of his daddy's eye. I mean all of the news services should post up to date photos. Yes its a shame he paid the ultimate price, but if you look like a thug, you more than likely are.
But thats not the "son" that Barry would have had if he could of had one....
Looking like a thug or even acting like a thug gives you no special powers to approach or confront someone. And if you do, getting yourself beat down for messing with the wrong person doesn't give you license to shoot them.
BP, it is NOT illegal to "approach or confront" anyone, whether you know them or not, that is called free speech. If it was how could all of OWX nutjobs sit around yelling obscinities at people going to and from work at corporate offices all day without being arrested?
It is not illegal to see someone in your neighborhood who you don't know, and for whatever reason approach them and ask them why they are there, in whatever "tone" you want to use. It certainly does not give the person being approached any legal grounds to start a fist fight.
What would you think if you were being followed by someone? Would you think Oh how nice some nice man is following me. What a lovely night.
Rob::: Reading your post. it shows me that you don't have the brains God promised a jassack.
President Obama,s FATHER-- also named Barack Hussein Obama-- was born in Kenya.
The sheriff in Arizona-- sounds like it probably was Joe-- has NOT seen the birth certificate. Someone put a Kenyan one up on the internet-- it was just a few words away from being a copy of his "birth certificate" where he was born in Austrailia.
I read sometime ago that some idiot said the birth certificate that was shown on the internet was a fake because it didn't have the baby's footprints on it. Guess what? My birth certificate does not have any footprints on it.
You seem to think you are so smart so answer me this. If Trayvon was on top of GZ when he was shot, where is the blood evidence. I thought that blood drops would go DOWN, not up into the air and vanish.
Susie people of his demeanor are always grasping for straws. My live birth certificate does not have a footprint either. Some people cannot get over having another race being President of the US. Plain and simple.
MSNBC can you be a little more biased! LOL Who is that in the picture. It surely is not the 17 year old thta attacked GZ... and I like how you say all that GZ reported wsa Black. Yeah and guess waht he never mentinoed it to the 911 people until asked and then he clearly staetd without malice, black male!!!! instead of some offhand comment. He was simpley reporting what he was seeing in each case. Hey no matter if I start a fight if you are beating my arse I am going to do whatever it tkaes to get out of it. And if a think that meand killin gyou then your gonna die. NOt becuae when the fight started I had planned on killing you, but simpley at that point for survival. Cause I have no idea what you are capable of doing to me and if I am on my back and your slamming my head against the street sure as shooting your gonna get shot by me. Notice the GZ did not pull the gun before the fight and at the start only when he thought he wsa gonna die.... Simple to me... Oh yeah and 17 year old guys are pretty strong. You seen the real pictures of 17 year old TM that is the manthat attacked GZ not the picture of 12 year old TM.. Anyone looks cute at 12 man...
I wish I could ask Zim just one question. How does it feel when a grown man gets his a$$ kicked by a 17 yr old kid?
Illrelevant, Krotch boy
Yo KrotchKricket...it feels like one less thug roamin his neigborhood....BADABING1
Not guilty.
Probably right.....too bad Zimm won't be able to live a normal life
He can use Tamazepam as a defense. Is this evidence of his mental illness?
One resident told the investigator that he heard a commotion and when he investigated, "he witnessed a black male, wearing a dark colored "hoodie" on top of a white or Hispanic male who was yelling for help. He elaborated by stating that black male was mounted on the white or Hispanic male and throwing punches "MMA (mixed martial arts) style." He stated he yelled out to the two individuals that he was going to call the police. He then heard a "pop." He stated that after hearing the "pop," he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the black male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass.
Fireman1800 - evidently you didn't hear the opposing people who saw just the opposite. They also had voice experts listen to the tapes and the news stations reported that the voice yelling "help" was Trayvon's not Zimmerman's.
All of that doesn't matter. Look how cute Trayvon Martin's 12 year old picture is!!! That's all that really matters!! To the guillotine Zimmerman!! ha!
Fireman is a likely a racist, he'll lie and twist the truth to make any excuse he can to justify this killing. Hes not interested in truth or justice.
ignorant people. Zimmerman has two black eyes, broken nose, head busted open. Trayvon has his knuckles bleeding and a bullet hole. With that some stupid people still try to say it was Zimmerman on top beating Trayvon. Arguing with them is like going to the zoo and arguing with the animals. Except this stupid animal calls everyone who disagrees with them racists. Racist is calling everyone racists without any proof.
And that was also the exact moment George Zimmerman not only made that Community a Little Safer, but also the state of Florida as well.
With TM's history, RECENT HISTORY, of Thugness and Gangsta Wanna-Be BS he had going on on his Twitter account, George Zimmerman probably made a lot of Peoples lives just a little safer in their future.
I say leave Zimmerman the Hell Alone.....Got It.
You clearly don't live in Florida, and probably have never visited either.
So what they are saying is he had the munchies and went to get a soda and some Skittles. Then some strange man rolls up on him in the dark and he freaks out punches him in the nose, dude falls on the ground and hits the back of his head. Does that sound about right? So if everyone that smokes weed on this comment board who went to get snacks after smoking a dobie got shot it would be ok? I mean with all the pedophiles running lose in Fla. I know my son better do what he has to do to protect himself. I'm just saying.
Louis, you made most of that up. Martin's knuckles were NOT bleeding, and Z's head was NOT "busted open". Your posts is full of name-calling, nastiness, and imaginary events. And I think perhaps when you think of calling names next time it might be a good idea to look in the mirror first.
Oh, and we are all animals...including you. It isn't an insult to be called an animal, no matter how you meant it.
'this case will be dismissed at discovery' Although this case should never have been brought, it will not be dismissed at discovery. Doubtless, the judge is on-board to deliver the 'proper' verdict. And should that fail, the Feds will have their shot, pun intended.
llg58...where are those so called voice experts today????Did you fail to readf that even Trayvon's Dad stated that the voice crying out was NOT tghat ofg his son. It was right in the police transcripts released yesterday. Funny thing is why did Trayvon's Dad never reveal this admission publicly before this??? Hmmmm!
LOL!!! WHOOOO, just LOVE, LOVE, LOVE reading all the "illogical" reasoning of my fellow Americans in support of a LIE! I wonder, will those of you sending money to support him will be able to write that off as "charity" on next years tax return?! Now repeat after me, "HOODWINKED, HOODWINKED, HOODWINKED!"
So what he got a couple of "boo-boos", that's barely a scratch on the bridge of his nose, PLEASE! So much for being beaten to near unconsciousness.
Fireman, the 'resident' your speaking of is John, GZ's friend. The very friend whose door you can hear GZ knocking at while still on call with dispatcher. Same friend that witnessed the confrontation from the beginning, then went in to call 911 and pretended not to know GZ, then mins later made it back down stairs to see a 'wobbly' GZ stumble towards him, take photo of his bloody head, then call his wife? Yeah, I wouldn't put too much stock in to anything he has to say.
This guy is done unless they fill the jury box with racists. He shot an unarmed kid, and doesnt have near the injuries to justify lethal force. If I was on the jury I would vote guilty, and im white and firmly believe in the right to defend yourself. But this isnt what I call justification to kill someone, and it certainly doesnt look like his life was in danger to me. At worst he was in danger of being beaten up. Being beaten up a little bit should not be an excuse to kill people. Force should be proportional to the threat.
The most interesting piece of info, Trayvon was shot at intermediate range. Hardy possible if he was going for Zimmermans gun as Zimmerman claimed. That mean he shot the kid from a distance, in cold blood. And not while being beaten, and not while the boy was going for his gun.
I vote GUILTY, roast the racist murderer who obviously has a thing with black people. Which is obvious since hes calling the cops reporting suspicious black people all the time.
Intermediate range is between 1 and 18 inches. Do your homework.
Not according to the report I read. I did do my homework. Close range is anything UNDER 6 feet.
You can blab away all you want making excuses for this racist, but hes done. That should be obvious, so start pouting now.
Florida is filled with nothing BUT racists. I live here. If the defense gets some bigoted Teabaggers on the jury, Zimmerman will not only walk, he'll be elected to Congress.
You are still in intermediate range if you less than an arm's length away.
"Which is obvious since hes calling the cops reporting suspicious black people all the time." Maybe there were only suspicious black people in the neighborhood during the previous incidents you dufus. That doesn't make his a racist because there are suspicious black people in his neighborhood.
Did he report anyone else for being suspicious? NOPE. Just black people. Thats a pattern.
Close range is anything UNDER 6 feet, intermediate range is 6-15 feet. Thats according to what Ive read anyway. Im sure they will instruct the jury.