hahahahaha..........grinspoon97 got told.

@ Grinspoon97 - you are so quick to believe that Zimmerman is innocent - isn't that the same thing as your claim that the media is already convicting him?

Grinspoon97, you sound like you are willfully ignorant of the way a lot of things work.

I'll tell you this, from reading the article, I think it is going to be hard for Zimmerman to prove his innocence. When he says he had no choice but to shoot, it sounds like he had a lot of choice before the incident. And it would make someone think maybe he even had a lot of choice during the incident. It brings up questions that I think are only going to continue to show this man had an axe to grind that lead to him murdering someone.

It also brings up the question, further, of the police department doing its job. Because with statements like this, to not initially arrest Zimmerman shows a level of incompetence that can't but help make a sane person wonder if it wasn't purposeful, too.

I agree, Mr. Dedman. At issue is the fact that I can't, nor should anyone, try someone through the media, and, at times, that is exactly what's done. Only the jury is able to make that call, as they are the only ones that hear ALL the evidence presented. And even that is slanted/biased, depending on whether it is being presented by the defense or the prosecution. Agree, or no? This one is going to be a tough outcome, regardless...

k. snider - zimmerman IS innocent until proven guilty. the case has not yet gone to trial. before that, the assumption is he is innocent and it is the prosecution's burden to prove he isn't. this has nothing to do with msnbc pushing an agenda or some random guy's opinion on a message board. we are not living in north korea or china where an overweight dictator sets the laws as he wills. we have due process and the initial stage is assumption of innocence. maybe YOU are the one who is being convinced by media or emotions rather than legal text and guidelines. i am not defending or incriminating zimmerman. i am thankful i live in america where there actually is due process. let's not forget the nightmare those americans lived through in iran. appreciate the court system. it is not perfect at all but it is there at the least. you could be in that defense chair one day.

This reminds me of the O.J. case. O.J. was also innocent of the murder.

Google "OJ Guilty but not of Murder".

I wonder if the authorities are going to plant evidence like they did for O.J.

It's about time that the journalists stood up for themselves! Everyone else has been forced to rail against these people who attempt to discredit the journalists in order to introduce doubt in the validity of the FACTS that are presented to the American people. Their attacks on the "Lamestream" media and other attacks are propaganda utilized by enemies of the American people - clearly these are the people whom would be last to take up arms against a foreign enemy, but quick to stockpile arms for use on Americans!

I'd say he had a chance to defuse the situation by NOT CAUSING IT. It ALL happened because of him. Nothing else matters in my book.

Hey @Bill Dedman,

Understood, you are just making information available. However, why is there no mention of WHEN this report was written? It was written long after the incident, and after all the furor around the case had begun, and parties began pressuring the DA for a charge. This was certainly written under the pressure of the prosecutor. It's a totally subjective farce. You don't convict someone based on the possibility that they might have done something else, and that other thing would have had a more favorable outcome. The way this is written, it's a joke.

Also, why did MSNBC not make ONE SINGLE MENTION of the CVSA Truth Verification in this document? Not a word. The conclusion in the document reads "The Client waas classified as No Deception Indicated (NDI). The client made admissions to collaborate the case prior to the exams."

This doesn't sound like fair and balanced journalism, does it? Just cherry pick the subjective nonsense that looks bad for Zimmerman, but make no mention of the scientific test that says he was telling the truth. You should be ashamed.

@Q22, the Duke Lacrosse case had no dead body.

Grinspoon97, the police department is releasing new documents, and we're providing those to you. We're giving you excerpts of the material that appears to be new, and we're linking to the full police report so you can read it for yourself.

Rather quaint. The case has been blown to absolute mayhem by the media prior to the release of documents and actual facts. Long before this information was available, I recall MSNBC flip-flopping between it being Trayvon's fault to it being Zimmerman's fault. Until there is factual information, what is the point in making it media worthy, if in fact, it is not media worthy and is simply garbage?

The truth is much more worth the read than the guesses and inflammation of terrible sources. Have better judgment.

He told you!!! LOL

@matt

The "pictures of 12 year old Trayvon Martin" were the ones provided by the family to media. The Facebook pictures you mentioned that were touted on Fox News were shown to be from a fake account (but I bet you didn't know that, because why would Fox News admit to an error?). Which one is more dishonest?

And while you may have "100 different directions as an escape" if you exit the truck, I don't know many people who can run in excess of 60mph, or punch through a steel door, so I'd feel much safer in my truck that beats a hasty, armored getaway in only one or two directions, then relying on my slow feet, protected by a windbreaker.

And finally, I don't know what you do for a living, but if you put in honest, hard work all day long, but half the people that come into your place of business said you did a sh*t job of it, you'd probably get to the point that you wanted to explain why you feel your work is quality too.

Q22

This is so eerily close to the Duke Lacrosse case it is frightening. Trial by media at it's worst.

Eerily close? You mean Trayvon Martin is lying about being shot in the chest and murdered? Yeah. I guess I could easily see how the two are similar - on meth.

Kofi,

Duke lacrosse had same rush to judgment, same one sided reporting, same assumptions about race & class, and same media lemmings repeating themselves rather than investigating the facts.

While Bill certainly does make a good point in relation to this article, because all that's being provided are excerpts from the police report, it's fairly obvious that a public trial has already taken place in this case and Zimmerman was judged as being guilty months ago by virtue of the public's response the vast amount of inconsistent and irresponsible reporting that took place on MSNBC and every other news outlet when the story first broke.

While Grinspoon97 is, most assuredly, mistaken in this case; it's laughable to try and make it sound like the 'free press' has been anything but terribly irresponsible with regards to release of information on this case when it first came up.

some of you people are seriously confused. Let me clear up a simple fact for you..If Zimmerman stays in his car, there is no incident. If Zimmerman, instead of following him and acting suspicious himself, had just said "hey man, im a neighborhood watch guy and I just wanted to make sure you werent lost or anything", or something to that effect, again the incident doesnt happen. Rather, he had a gun, acted tough, picked a fight, got his butt whipped, and in retaliation shot an unarmed kid. It doesnt really help that his character is now also in question due to him and his wife lying to the judge about the donated money, money that was donated for a legal defense and not to pay off credit card bills...which is what they did with it. Make any conclusion you want, however facts indicate Zimmerman was the aggressor by following him, not the victim. Thats the law people, deal with it.

Whoa! Smack Down. Never saw that before...

I have a question for all these people who are questioning the competency of police and DAs because of this case.

So you think that most convictions that have happened are travesties? Should we let them out? If both cops and DAs are incompetent, make up evidence and hold grudges against innocent people, then shouldn't we be letting people out?

Or is it just that they are incompetent in the case of Mr Zimmerman, and dead right about everyone else in jail?

Yes, MSNBC can say all they want, they have crucified this guy in their reporting this story. I don't know if he could ever get a fair trial. Mr. Dedman can make all the statements he wants about releasing this and that, but if you look at the facts of this case, the prosecution has no case.

I hope he sues MSNBC and tears them a new one. To report on anyone as irresponsibly as this is terrible. Same as the guy who was crucified in the media for "bombing Atlanta" at the '96 Olympics. That guy was trying to help people and the media ruined him. Totally disgusting.

they provide zimmerman's own testimony as to what happened and conclusions that anybody could draw based on the information, how is that trial by media. this is a simple case at this point. I think they should have gone for manslaughter, going for murder2 seems like they don't want to win

Matador, you are ignoring facts and making up others. There is no evidence than Marin attacked Zimmerman - only Zimmerman's claim. There is no known witness to say Zimmerman's head was banged against the ground. The trace amount of marijuana found in Martin's system gives no indication of when he smoked it, and furthermore it's irrelevant. All networks initially used the younger pictures of Martin as they were the only ones available, but again, what he looked like in his Facebook pictures is irrelevant. There is no witness who definitely claims to have seen Martin beating up Zimmerman.

If G man crapped his pants and/or wet them...then I just might believe him. Oh well :)

Rick, I would say if you look at the back of Z's head, that looks like pretty good evidence to me that his head was banged against the ground.

That he slipped and fell while reaching for his gun. He would've been better off shooting himself, don't you agree?

Classic. No one cares until it happens to one of their own! Jail will do G man some good. He needs it. As much of it as possible. Didn't wish it on him..he just asked for it.

No child in America should leave his/her house to buy skittles and an iced tea, and then end up being killed by anyone, least of all someone who portends to be there to protect the very neighbor whom Zimmerman killed, a child in a gated community.

Derek

I'll tell you this, from reading the article, I think it is going to be hard for Zimmerman to prove his innocence.

News flash, Zimmerman doesnt have to prove his innocence, the prosecution has to prove his guilt, this is America and we have that pesky "innocent until proven guilty" thing going.

Zimmerman is the only one with injuries consistent with being attacked, how is the prosecution going to say he didnt have the right to defend himself. If Martin had known GZ had a gun he would have never thrown that first punch, he was dumb, but not that dumb. All he had to do was say "I live right over there" and the whole thing is over, but he had to go all gangsta and it got his dumb ass killed. Maybe on the south side of Chicago he wouldnt have looked suspicious, but in a gated community in Sanford Florida he sure as hell did, and Zimmerman had every right to follow him to see what he was up to.

Dedman, you have sunk to a new low even for MS-NBC. What a stupid comment. We do not need you to "teach us" what the news is for. You should learn from your customers.

Report facts, not speculations. You claim you are just giving us information. No, what this site does is write biased editorials. cherry pick what information it presents and then calls it news.

Do you know that very few believe anything that comes out of the mouths of news people. You've "out lowed" both lawyers and used car salesman.

Zimmerman was overcharged due to negative public opinion led by Revs. Al and Jesse. Alan Dershowitz has unequivecally stated the only conviction in the case will be the prosecutor's.

Rick

There is no evidence than Marin attacked Zimmerman - only Zimmerman's claim.

Other than the police reports, the doctors reports, and the EMT reports there is no evidence. If you were sitting on a jury and you saw the reports of GZ's injuries, what conclusion would you come to, its really hard to convince a jury that someone beat the crap out of himself.

what about this story is an editorial Bill from Oregon?

No child in America should leave his/her house to buy skittles and an iced tea, and then end up being killed by anyone, least of all someone who portends to be there to protect the very neighbor whom Zimmerman killed, a child in a gated community.

This "child" with skittles and iced tea cold-cocked a man, jumped on him and pounded his head on the sidewalk repeatedly. No one deserves to be attacked without provocation and beaten senseless. What would have happened to George Zimmerman had he not been armed? Dead? A vegetable in a coma? I don't think, based on what I have read, that Martin intended to stop the beating prior to being shot. Sorry, but that is the definition of self-defense.

Justice for Tayvon!

Steve, try to get the point, even if you don't like it.

Thank God for MSNBC and other media outlets that keep us informed! The prosecutor had decided to not prosecute Zimmerman and had the victims parents and the media not let the world know what had happenedhe may still be walking free! He will still have the opportunity to defend himself in a court of law with a jury of his peers. Trayvon Martin has no more chances for anything. That the police who responded that night basically said the same thing I have been saying all along- that Zimmerman had caused the incident to happen by his actions when he could have avoided it, reinforces my belief that the "stand your ground" law should not be available as a defense.

There is one problem with all these hypothetical theories. The is one dead N and he can't speak up right now......Tiebreaker goes to the one who can state his case, next in line please.

One dead N? Are you serious? Please, whatever you do, don't procreate. The world doesn't need anymore racists.

If G man didn't have a gun...hmm that's a tough one. Maybe he would be a cop right now doing the same bs he's been doing.

Zimmerman passed a lie detector test. Good enough for me.

He passed a stress test dat der bud. Completely different from a lie detector. And that holds no weight because it has no effect on someone hopped up on the exact meds G man is abusing.

Bill Dedman

Grinspoon97, the police department is releasing new documents, and we're providing those to you. We're giving you excerpts of the material that appears to be new, and we're linking to the full police report so you can read it for yourself.

This is exactly the role that a free press plays, has a responsibility to play.

Bill the PROBLEM is that since this story broke MSNBC has chosen to try this case in the public and has leaned strongly AGAINST George Zimmerman. MSNBC had found something almost on a DAILY basis to create a NEW story.

I don't know if you chose to repeat parts of the story or your editor did. You make it appear that the police AGAIN are stating the situation was avoidable and now make it appear that the police are saying something new by stating there were MANY chances to avoid the situation.

Your story keeps the theme of only George could have avoided this. I'm not blaming the victim. If what George states happened is true then Trayvon could have avoided being shot by not punching George.

YOUR story states repeatedly that "Investigative findings" but you fail to attribute WHO did the investigation. If you are going to report NEWS then leave your opinion out of it or label it as your opinion rather than hanging out the low hanging fruit of "investigative findings" attributed to the mystery "they". MSNBC already has a rep after the tape edit. You CAN DO Better.

Including the page from the HOA manual.. George doesn't even own in the HOA and yet you attribute it to belonging to him, is nothing but fanning the flames.

At least this story doesn't have the "White Hispanic" crap in it again. Now we are just using First Middle Last, but at least for both parties. Most of us are aware of that full name game when someone is about to become infamous. John Wayne Gacy for example. Starting to mirror FAUX network.

Let the trial deal with all this stuff as that's their job. The media is just playing with this story for ad revenue in my opinion.

If I am wrong then so be it and I will admit it but when other posters here have good questions for MSNBC they never get answers, why is that I wonder?

Maybe we should just use the K.i.S.S. rule here? (Keep it simple stupid) I mean no disrespect to anyone by saying this either.

REPORTING on the case is NOT TRIAL BY MEDIA.... wtf is wrong with you??? If the material was so sensitive the JUDGE woudl never have let it out in the first place...

Bill Dedman

Yes, you agree it is trial by media and MSNBC at its best. Figured that. The media reports fact with innuendo, detail with conjecture, views designed to stoke a readership. Wasn't that called YELLOW journalism and a jingo press aimed at the lowest denominator? I remember the reports that there were no marks on Zimmerman, poor Trevon was attacked, and Zimmerman was the instigator because he did not run away, every biased view on what happened by those wanting, not to promote fair justice, but a political outcome.

Just a prelude to lynch mobs. We have a justice system to provide a fair trial. MSNBC seems to believe it is an advocate for a point of view rather than a source of information. As I said, the best MSNBC has to offer.

And while I have your attention, just what is this "collapsed by the community" BS. What are the rules that make reading opposing views so difficult. How about a button to allow all posts to be displayed and let us decide. I can understand if some rule, like inappropriate language or off topic were applied evenhandedly, but this collapsed just makes it difficult to see what people are writing. So, what's the rules with it?

Investigative findings show the physical dimension of Trayvon Benjamin Martin, and that of George Michael Zimmerman, coupled with the absence of any specialized training in hand to hand combat between either combatant, did not place George Michael Zimmerman in an extraordinary or exceptional disadvantage of apparent physical ability or defensive capacity.

So how could Trayvon or Zimmerman know the others "absence of any specialized training in hand to hand combat" before the encounter..............that is a rather stupid statement by the officer. Trayvon was sure unaware that Zimmerman had a gun. I will let all the evidence be presented in a trial before I decide if the shooting was legal or murder.

So, a guy can not ask someone walking in the dark in his neighborhood what he is doing there without asking for a justified attack.From the original documents it apprears Zimmerman got out of his car to be able to read a street sign and report to a dispatcher his location. As he was walking back to his car, he was confronted by Trevon. Nobody disputes that Trevon was the initial attacker. He suffered no bruses or marks.

And Zimmerman is wrong because he did not run at the sight of a black man in his neighborhood? And, Zimmerman was the attacker because he got out of his car? And the after the fact revised police report looks like it should be subject to cross-examination - not a excusitory narritive by a journalist.

A little fairness would be nice if this is to be tried in the press and we can all form a lynch mob to carry out a just verdict. Courts are a waste of time when the prosecution presents its case to the public filtered through a self-serving media.

First of, to all the couch lawyers on here, this is Floridas policy to release this information, even in high-profile cases. Get off the medias (and MSNBCs) nutsack.

Second, to Mike Is Back, the Fast and Furious program was started by Bush. And the head of the ATF has stated that this administration was never briefed on its existence. The only thing that's news about that is that Issa won't call him as a witness because he doesn't want that fact on the official record because it undermines the controversy that gets people like you all worked up about ideas supported by your prejudice and hate of a black president.

Contrary to popular belief, Americans (and most people in general) are NOT smart. And conservatives cling to their beliefs and prejudices regardless of the facts!

@Grinspoon

just what is this "collapsed by the community" BS. What are the rules that make reading opposing views so difficult. How about a button to allow all posts to be displayed and let us decide. I can understand if some rule, like inappropriate language or off topic were applied evenhandedly, but this collapsed just makes it difficult to see what people are writing. So, what's the rules with it?

Comments are collapsed after receiving enough negative votes from other users. Newsvine moderators then review the comments and either restore them, keep them collapsed, or delete them. All of this information is available on the Newsvine CoH. It has nothing to do with MSNBC at all. MSNBC is just one of many news outlets that use Newsvine as a comment engine. The rules that govern the comments are determined by Newsvine, so railing against Bill Dedman of MSNBC is misguided.

Derek

What part of innocent until proven guilty are you having a hard time with? GZ doesnt have to prove anything, he doesnt have to open his mouth, the prosecution has to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Do you need this explained to you?

Steve (post 1.43)

There is no evidence than Marin attacked Zimmerman - only Zimmerman's claim.

Other than the EYEWITNESS STATEMENT that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, pounding his head into the ground. .

If a guy with a gun chases me for no good reason at all, and I get the chance to pummel the guy and slam his head against the ground, I would. If he then shoots me to death, I would hope he hangs for it.

the Fast and Furious program was started by Bush

Sorry BrainCandy that is actually not true. During Bush there was a program called "wide receiver" that was a joint operation with the Mexican government where the Mexican government followed the guns into Mexico and arrested the bad guys on the other side. That program was closed during the Bush administration. Fast and Furious was started under the Obama administration (not saying Obama was involved) and the Mexican government knew nothing about it and the guns just "walked" into Mexico and disappeared. They were two different operations that worked quite differently.

WMG-21

I was railing against MSNBC investigative journalist for shoddy one-sided reporting - NOT about the "collapsed" censorship. I find no rules about what may be collapsed or by what rules - just "enough" and a determination by Newsvine - based on what they don't say. Tried emailing them about the rules, but no answer. Figured a little exposure here might produce better results - it didn't.

Apparently "enough" is not a number and evaluated has no rules. I think it is censorship under these circumstances. Some determination as "off topic", vulgarity, or personal attacks or name calling would be welcomed. BUT, as it stands, it appears arbitrary, determnine by a silent elite, and used to censor valid pov.

Some of you people are funny. Fact: One person is dead, shot by another. The trial is about the level of violence justified here, not whether one is innocent of shooting another. We know Zimmerman shot Martin. That's a fact. Knowing what law I do, I can say one thing: deadly force is NEVER justified when it's not being used against you. Fists do not equal guns under any circumstance unless its many fists against one person, or the fists of a person are registered as deadly weapons, and even then, only under threat of being killed. That's a fact of law.

This was not inadvertence. This was one guy who CHOSE to get out of his truck and play vigilante tough guy. There is ZERO question that Zimmerman exceeded his authority and killed Martin. Now it's up to the courts to determine whether it's charge A or B. But he did shoot him down, and didn't have to. Zimmerman chose to leave his truck. If he hadn't initiated the action, there likely would have been no crime, no killing, no beating, and no drama. The media has nothing to do with this case except report on it. What we on this comment board think has nothing to do with anything. It certainly isn't trial by media. And thank heaven the media did report on this, or else the initial incompetence of the police and local DA would have gone unreported.

Police say Zimmerman had chances to defuse situation before shooting Martin

Uhmmmm....by the same token.. could the title might also have been....

Police say EITHER party had chances to defuse the situation before it got serious ?

They keep pulling the wool over peoples eyes with this case.Think why they are doing this? They have no case without proof, there was nobody who saw it happen. What jury will think they proven their case "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt?

"Clear and convincing proof is evidence that establishes a high probability that the fact sought to be proved is true. The main reason that the high proof standard of reasonable doubt is used in criminal trials is that such proceedings can result in the deprivation of a defendant's liberty or even in his or her death."

@Grinspoon-- there is a threshold at which comments are collapsed, but again, they are collapsed by votes from the other users (see the exclamation point next in the lower right hand corner of each comment?). Moderators make the determination whether or not to restore a collapsed comment or take other action-- they have individual discretion to make that determination, but I'm sure as employees of Newsvine they are subject to specific rules regarding their decisions. In this case, your comment was restored. You can read the Newsvine CoH here:

http://www.newsvine.com/_nv/cms/info/codeOfHonor

WMG-21 ..... Read it. Not much help. How many votes necessary to collapse (1,2, 14, 42?). I read the collapsed comments all the time. A few have reasons by the code - the VAST majority don't. It is at the whim of some unknown, somebody, somewhere.

Don't you admit most collapsed are political and one-sided? Newsvine is protected by law from any liability from whatever we post. So, other than vulgar, off topic, or personal attack - what is the "spirit" of Newsvine? These are reasons for deletion - what are the reasons for "collapsed"?And why don't they answer polite requests about the process?

"individual discretion" is just another phrase for censorship. I am sure the Kommisars just used "individual discretion". Why is it so hard to say what the number is to be collapsed by the community? There has to be a threshhold, so how else would you decide which posts met that goal, for you to make a decision to collapse?

Grinspoon97

WMG-21 ..... Read it. Not much help. How many votes necessary to collapse (1,2, 14, 42?).

Five UP arrow votes earns a STAR. That prevents deletion. collapse is most likely 10 or 20 and slightly more for auto deletion after some set period.. Deletions are rare and depend on the 3 choices for negative votes.

Don't you admit most collapsed are political and one-sided?

BOTH sides participate in collapsing comments. The longer a thread is the more likely early comments from both sides will be found collapsed. On occasion the moderators do intervene and "restore" a comment for clarity. Just a personal observation and OPINION, the moderators appear to be bias in favor of minorities.. that could be just their personal views or some policy known only to them.

So, other than vulgar, off topic, or personal attack - what is the "spirit" of Newsvine? These are reasons for deletion - what are the reasons for "collapsed"?And why don't they answer polite requests about the process?

Even the vulgar, off topic and most personal attacks don't get "moderated" by the moderators. More of a self policing community. There appears to be TWO moderators for all of newsvine.. sally and I believe tyler. The collapsing is automated. Deletions are more than likely generated to a list that the moderators eventually get around to reviewing. As to the criteria and a polite answer.. Generally if the mods get involved they will reference the code of conduct and, again IMHO, they are valid interventions. Usually the newer members of newsvine are the ones who get slapped with warnings, suspensions or bans. On occasion even more veteran user get slapped so to speak.

So for review.. collapsing is simply a matter of voting.. Someone may just not like you and vote you down even if they would otherwise agree with your comment. Actual deletions and moderator responses take a bit more effort and likely depend on how busy the moderators are that day.

Hayabusa-1004771

REPORTING on the case is NOT TRIAL BY MEDIA.... wtf is wrong with you??? If the material was so sensitive the JUDGE woudl never have let it out in the first place...

Reporting FACTS, EVIDENCE and police reports is one thing.. When they add spin and OPINION it belongs on the op-ed pages not the news or the front page. Regurgitating the same thing over and over but making it LOOK like something new is only further evidence they are making attempts to keep this case in the news by any distortion necessary.

Big Al-369306

Bing or Google Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom 8( This should have been front page news across the Country.

Perhaps you are correct except that was 2007 so not really news today.

I know it's old news but it's sad that the national media ignored it.

Grinspoon97, the police department is releasing new documents, and we're providing those to you. We're giving you excerpts of the material that appears to be new, and we're linking to the full police report so you can read it for yourself.

This is exactly the role that a free press plays, has a responsibility to play.

Bill - is this the same "responsibility" your TEAM used in editing the 911 tapes to make GZ sound like a racist? I didn't see an article on your website condemning that action...

Why don't you use the responsibility evenly - not when you pick and choose to rip on a commenter.

ujackwagon

BrainCandy-3328906....(#1.61)..."Second, to Mike Is Back, the Fast and Furious program was started by Bush."

Here we go again...educating 1 misinformed person at a time:

"Operation Wide Receiver was started in 2006 with the knowledge and cooperation
of the Mexican Government. An attempt was made to put albeit "primitive"
tracking devices into guns going south of the border. The Mexican Authorities
were notified when guns were crossing, so they could be followed to the cartels.
When it became apparent that neither the devices or the Mexican Police were
reliable and the cartels found and removed the devices, the Operation was ended in 2007. A few hundred guns were "lost" "

Fast and Furious was started in 2009....Two years after Wide Receiver ended. The Mexico Government was not notified and there was NO attempt to track the guns, except for having the serial numbers.....Why was that ???...So more guns could be found at Mexican crime scenes, traceable to the U.S.....

I know....a bit off topic but reply to BrainCandy-3328906 was needed.

'...this man had an axe to grind that lead to him murdering someone.'

"They always get away!"

I see some think Florida always releases all the documents in a case. Doubt it, but must be some reason the judge did it. Besides having a trial in the media by those with axes to grind, I doubt whether the interests of a fair trial are served. It is a basic tenet of our justice system that an accused isINNOCENT until PROVEN (beyond any doubt) guilty. We seem to be trying to get the public to decide innocence or guilt based on the skills of "journalists" to please their audience. That's no way to run a railroad.

And 5 up arrows is no protection from the censor's hand. Just wanted to know how many in a roving band could collapse comments they did not like. I read MSNBC.COM to get a gist of what each side thinks, how strongly, and what proportion. Collapsing is made useless in this forum. Might have been a good idea when we were civilized and above such tactics. There is now no value to it but attempted censorship. If something is objectionable, it should be deleted and the poster warned to mend. We could register complaint by putting categories in ! box. Could even put in a counter and show what the "community" thinks. Would go farther and seem fairer than the "collapse" system. JMO.

Grinspoon:: So Zimmerman got out of his truck to read a street sign? I didn't realize that street signs would be in the green space between the sets of homes. I thought that street signs were at an intersection where two streets intersect.

So Zimmerman LIVED in that community? And he doesn't know where he is? Bet he walks that area every day!

Do you know streets in your neighborhood that you walk or drive every day? You are better than Zimmerman-- evidently he doesn't know diddilysquat. And he can't read either.

Kinda dumb for a guy who is wanting to be in criminal justice. He just may have flushed his chosen career down the toilet. I wouldn't want him to flip hamburgers!

Bill Dedman

Grinspoon97, the police department is releasing new documents, and we're providing those to you. We're giving you excerpts of the material that appears to be new, and we're linking to the full police report so you can read it for yourself.

This is exactly the role that a free press plays, has a responsibility to play.

Tell me, Bill, does this same "free press" have the "responsibility" to show the same calculatedly outdated image of 12 yo Trayvon repeatedly, instead of current photos of him?

Does a "free press" have the "responsibility" to alter the audio of a 911 call?

Anyone from MSNBC should be very careful when preaching about the "responsibilities" of a "free press," especially as it pertains to this case.

The same law of standing your ground would innocent a living guilty and condemn a dead innocent. I see T as heroically, without weapons, standing his ground and defending himself from a life threatening situation. Z needed to back off. Instead he created a situation which appears driven by some form of narcissistic hero complex, probably coupled with some racial profiling, to take a situation all the way to two people fighting for survival with one ending up dead. This is what vigilante justice ends up looking like. Z was on a hunt and the prey had no choice but to ultimately defend himself.

RE:

Bill Dedman

Grinspoon97, the police department is releasing new documents, and we're providing those to you. We're giving you excerpts of the material that appears to be new, and we're linking to the full police report so you can read it for yourself.

This is exactly the role that a free press plays, has a responsibility to play.

++++++

Says the guy who works for the news company who edits phone calls to incite anger and create an issue that was not expressly there in the original recording... O_o

Trayvon was a "hero?" Seriously? What was the "life-threatening" situation Trayvon was in?

Skiddy

Rick, I would say if you look at the back of Z's head, that looks like pretty good evidence to me that his head was banged against the ground.

If you looked at the video in the police garage on the night of the shooting, it looks like pretty good evidence to me that his head was banged up long after Traygone was killed.

It's not unusual for investigators to take the role of accuser. It's part of the investigation to see how a witness holds up. You question the motive, you question the behavior, you question the what if's. So I'm not surprised to see a report of police saying GZ could have avoided the confrontation. But that's a big step away from saying GZ caused TM to resort to assault/battery.

As far as 'fear', fear doesn't keep people from investigating or going toward a potentially dangerous situation. Police do it. Soldiers do it. Firefighters. An everyday normal person will investigate noises in their home in the middle of the night, even though they fear it may be an intruder. People can be afraid a fight might break out in a bar but still go there for drinks. Fear can be anything ranged from concern to terror. Investigating a potential threat doesn't disprove fear.

"Later in the encounter, Zimmerman exited his vehicle, in spite of his earlier admission to investigators that he was afraid of Martin,"

He exited his vehicle when he lost sight of Martin... he was part of the Neighborhood WATCH. Kind of difficult to watch someone you can't see don't you think?

What does the officer think concealed carry permits are for? If you have made the necessary preparations for self-defense why on earth would you be expected to be afraid?

This is exactly the role that a free press plays, has a responsibility to play.

While I agree with part of what Dedman says, he doesn't convey the "whole truth". He picks and chooses the excerpts that support his agenda. Part of the role of the free press is to present the info in an unbiased manner. Because Dedman's head is so far up his arse in his belief that people will unquestionably accept his logic he believes everybody ought to shove their heads up his arse.

Bill, relax. Mine is one head that won't be joining yours.

We're giving you excerpts of the material that appears to be new,

Why give us bits and pieces that support your biased perspective? How is this information "new" when it was released long ago?

Your report indicates support of the police as if they are such a learned group. Yet you ignore the fact that cops try to sound intelligent and are given the benefit of the doubt because of their authority position. In the link you provided there was a comment made by William Erwin ("I found that his statements were collaborated by independent witnesses.")

collaborated -

1. Work jointly on an activity, esp. to produce or create something.
2. Cooperate traitorously with an enemy.

corroborated -

Confirm or give support to (a statement, theory, or finding).

Did the cops actually mean to use the wrong terms (malapropism) for the purpose of appearing to be Keystone Kops or were they just plain ignorant and wanting to appear educated?

People keep forgetting some facts. First, Zimmerman has no protection from Neighborhood Watch because he violated their regulations that had been spelled out to him and his neighbors when he invited the Neighborhood Watch liaison to come to the neighborhood meeting. The trainer has stated she clearly told Zimmerman and the neighbors in attendance that they had no right to patrol under the auspices of Neighborhood Watch. They were also clearly told they were not allowed to carry weapons and if they did and ended up injuring or killing someone that they would most likely face criminal charges. When they agreed to follow the Neighborhood Watch regulations in exchange for having those little Neighborhood Watch signs posted around their neighborhood, it was clear to them what was expected and acceptable to the Neighborhood Watch organization. Zimmerman chose to ignore those when he patrolled and patrolledwith a weapon Neighborhood Watch allows you to protect your home or others during the commission of a crime, but there was no crime in progress and Zimmerman was not at home when this all started. They also clearly state that under no circumstances should one ever follow or confront a suspect. Since Trayvon Martin was committing no crime, nor was Zimmerman following him because Martin was committing a crime, I see no way for Zimmerman to claim he was in the right. He certainly was not following the regulations he agreed to with Neighborhood Watch. Referring to him as if he was doing something he was supposed to do under Neighborhood Watch puts a completely wrong spin on the killing. I would think that the fact he knowingly and willingly went outside the regulations he agreed to uphold would indicate his mindset as someone who didn't really care about what was right and legal and he certainly caused the entire confrontation to take place when he decided to pursue Martin. He gets no sympathy from me when he chose to take the law into his own hands and violate the very regulations he had agreed to uphold.

Bill, don't get too holy over the free press thing. Outlets notoriously lean one way or another and it was NBC itself blowing up Chevy gas tanks just for ratings.

It's interesting all the people either blaming the media or defending them.

However, what people are failing to understand the real take-away the Internet (media) can teach is this:

"The Internet is the most precipitous form of communication yet devised. That said, the Internet forces the reader to consider the source of the information displayed because any sole can say anything. With the "sum of human knowledge" at their fingertips, it's silly to keep defending or blaming the media."

Does "Stand Your Ground" apply to Martin - who felt threatened by somebody who is following him and hasn't identified why he is following Martin?

So if Martin attacked Zimmerman, then would that be ok as per "Stand Your Ground"?

PJ-1795048 no it does not apply to trayvon seeing how Trayvon attacked Zimmerman.

I agree with some of the posters that both side had chances to defuse the situation, but ultimately Trayvon did not have the right to attack Zimmerman.

Wiz? Are you kidding me. You're walking home from a C-Store and someone starts stalking you. You run and they start chasing you? You confront them and then they reach in to their pocket. What are you going to do? What would you expect? He is going to ask you for a light for a smoke?

The moment Zimmerman chased after Martin he provoked the kid. He picked the fight with the 17 year old. Martin was well in his right to attack Zimmerman. If Zimmerman did the same thing to me I would have also attacked him. You would too, if someone was stalking you on a dark street. Zimmerman has proven himself to be a liar, and we're only getting his side of the store since he killed Martin.

You can't provoke someone into a fight then pull out a gun and kill them and then claim self defense or "standing your ground". Justice just doesn't work that way.

The bottom line . . . he walks. I don't know if he's guilty or not because I wasn't there but he will walk. Just get your riot gear ready. A whole bunch of other people that were not there will be tearing up the nation. That's just the way it is . . . .

It seems odd to me to note that no one has mentioned the neighborhood itself. In the video of gz, retracing his actions with the police investigators, he got confused as to his whereabouts. I'm not sure if anyone else noticed, but everyone of those houses looked exactly the same. If I were in a neighborhood as a guest and went to the store, trying to find my way back to the right house in a community of ticky-tack houses in the rain, I might lose my way and try to figure where the heck the house is at. That is not suspicious behavior, it is normal human behavior. Have you ever been lost in a neighborhood? I have, I have driven around slowly looking for the home I was headed to for a tupperware party, a candlelight party, a pampered chef party. Thank heavens I was not shot for driving (in TM's case walking) slowly while trying to find my way to a place I was unfamiliar with. Look at the video again, pretend you are a guest, it's raining, and you're trying to find the right house in that maze of a community, then add in the fact that somebody is following you and now you're creeped out, confused, kind of scared (I would be), that guy that's been following you now reaches into his pocket, is he going to hurt you, pull a knife, or in this case pull a gun, what would YOU DO? Try to protect yourself as best you could. In this case it seems an innocent young man was killed by a fear-driven, non-regulation abiding, gun-toting, jumping to the wrong conclusion, vigilante with emotional and mental weaknesses that has a tendency to try to lie and outsmart the legal minds involved in his case. There was a reason his first attorneys dumped him. Please go back and watch the video, then honestly ask yourself if you were a guest in that community, how long would it take you to fully know your way around, well enough to go out to the store and get back in the rain quickly on foot. Let the jury decide gz's fate. But, in these forums feel free to share your opinion. Kindly would be the best way, but, some folks can't do that, regardless of what civility calls for.

Let me clarify a statement I made above in 1.100.

"then, add in the fact that somebody is following you and now you're creeped out, confused, kind of scared (I would be), that this guy that's been following you in his truck, is now tracking you on foot, has an attitude and now reaches into his pocket: is he going to hurt you, pull a knife, or pull a gun, what would YOU DO?"

Sorry for leaving those important opinions on my part out. Thank you.

all these arguments don't matter. the fact of the situation is Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. The prosecution has to prove that Zimmerman is guilt of something beyond a reasonable doubt. Now Zimmerman may be no saint but that's another issue. The releveant thing is that there's a lot of doubt and it's going to be almost impossible, in my opinion, to get a jury to agree on finding him guilty--just the same as all of you commenters have different ideas so too will a jury.

I agree that when Martin circled his car, Zimmerman should have then told him that he was part of the neighborhood watch program and asked him what he was doing. But the story says,

Zimmerman had several chances to end the encounter without violence.

This is total BS. Martin asked him if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and then looked for his phone and Martin said "you do now" and slugged him unexpectedly. It seems Zimmerman did not have the chance before the punch to explain that he was part of the neighborhood watch.

Also, these idiots have to watch the re-enactment. Zimmerman did not intend to get out of the car at all. The dispatcher asked for an address, but Zimmerman was on the back side of the complex where you cannot see the address numbers. He lost sight of Martin and exited the car to walk to the front side of those buildings to get an address number for the police, NOT to follow Martin on foot.

Regardless, Martin had no right to go up to Zimmerman and slug him simply for following him. He could have let Zimmerman explain things. He didn't want to do that. I think Zimmerman caught him walking in the grass, in the rain, looking in houses, casing them, and Martin didn't like it. His reaction was a violent one and he lost his life as a result. Give the thug a Darwin Award.

Officer Santiago wrote that he "observed a key chain lying NEAR the T portion of the walkway, a black flashlight lying on the grass just east of the key chain.

Santiago also wrote that he "noticed a black cell phone near the area of Martin"

Therefore, the key chain and the black cell phone (note: I am not talking about the headset) were at least 30 feet apart.

Conclusion:

If the fight was way down the sidewalk at the T , that is where Trayvon would have been shot based upon Zimmerman's statement that he shot Trayvon while his (Zimmerman's) head was being pounded on the sidewalk by Trayvon .

Therefore, George Zimmerman did NOT shoot Trayvon Martin in self defense.

"Other than the EYEWITNESS STATEMENT that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, pounding his head into the ground. ."

Your reading comprehension must stink then, because this describes the end of a fight, not how it started. The person who gets his ass kicked in a fight is NOT always the victim, and is NOT always the person who who got hit first.

@trust_verify im sorry, but i'm reading facts that were released by the legal teams which if FL policy.... I'm not sure what in between the lines youre reading.

Those scrapes on Zimmerman's head do NOT look like they resulted from his head being banged on the sidewalk. They look like scrapes he would have had scuffling in the grass -- with the occasional small sharp rock pushing up from the base of the grass. What were very OBVIOUSLY absent in those photos were LUMPS. Lumps would indicate serious banging on a hard concrete slab. Minor scrapes indicate a scuffle in the grass.

Zimmerman added the bit about his head being banged on the sidewalk -- to give his story pizazz, and to hopefully garner some modicum of sympathy for his murderous actions. He was never in any serious threat of death -- to the level required to use lethal force. Some people are of the opinion that any fist fight can be settled by a gun and a good story. Sorry, but that's not how it works. He had to have a REASONABLE fear of serious injury or loss of life. REASONABLE. And his story isn't the least bit reasonable.

Someone mentioned reference in report to Z's statements "collaborated" by previous statements. Huh? So I looked at the report. People in law enforcement really should be better at correct word usage, considering the implications. Should read "corroborated" as in "supported by" or "consistent with" rather than "collaborated" which would make Z two people.

They should reenact the head hitting the ground from a forensic perspective. To me, the wounds appear to be way to high up on the head to have been hitting the ground. The angle appears wrong. I wouldn't put it past Z and his father to have tampered with, or even created, false evidence after the fact.

So he passed a lie detector test at the police station and had wounds on the back of his head (physical evidence to also back up his claims) and yet he is still arrested and we are told he could have diffused it. The police tell us over and over that until you've been in a situation where someone is confronting you and your life could be in danger, you don't really know how you'd react, and people shouldn't second guess cops who are in that situation. And now, suddenly, everyone who wasn't there and doesn't know what happened is an expert on what Zimmerman could have or should have done.

This case has become total BS. It's all about creating a distraction from the real problems in our country (unemployment, debt, etc) and trying to keep people focused on race instead. Until this next election, the news media is squarely focused on controlling what we do talk/think about.

Tomorrow Eric Holder will be found in contempt of congress..... Very little in the news about it (except of course the articles about it being a witch hunt).

Everyone on the planet knows Zimmerman could have done things to defuse this but that certainly doesn't make him guilty of murder. I guess MSNBC needed another round of racism so they put together this story.
By the way, why did the story about the black guy who killed the school bus driver in NY go away so quickly?

Today's media makes me sick.

Epinnoia, You said, looking at GZ head that

Minor scrapes indicate a scuffle in the grass.

The police determined in their lab that there was grass only on the back of GZ's jacket, so you can't say there they were rolling in the grass or as you put it "a scuffle in the grass".

To add to my comment located above at #1.104:

Another person commented:

Witness 16 (Selma) states that the original fight starts way down at the beginning of the building, near the "T". The witness at the first unit is the one placing the 911 call so logically that was where it started.

"Bing or Google Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom 8( This should have been front page news across the Country."

But do you not understand? If blacks kill whites it is ok. It is what is known as "social justice." That's why these killers got off and why MSNBC wouldn't touch this story.

Regarding the article's title, it seems the same could have been said of Martin. He could have chosen to ignore Zimmerman and just continue on to where he was staying. However, he chose to confront and assault Zimmerman.

Wet Willy, great point. This is probably why Zimmerman will walk.

Interesting that none of you are talking about the fact that Trayvon Martin had no bruising on his hands - as the coroner and funeral director will testify - only a small laceration on his ring finger. Could NOT have beaten the lying Zimmerman. There is a strong possibility he was beaten earlier and took it out on Trayvon.

Zimmerman is a murderer. Nothing more - nothing less!

SeekingSanity

Interesting that none of you are talking about the fact that Trayvon Martin had no bruising on his hands - as the coroner and funeral director will testify

Trayvon had abrasions on one ring finger and the FACT that he died so quickly, due to massive internal bleeding, he didn't have time to bruise. The ME will trump the funeral director... who claimed there were NO injuries at all. That has been discussed and dealt with.. nice of you to be catching up bringing up old news, much like this story has done.

There is a strong possibility he was beaten earlier and took it out on Trayvon.

Yes there is that possibility but the POLICE AND EMS noted fresh injuries, not old reopened ones.

Zimmerman is a murderer. Nothing more - nothing less!

Killer yes.. charged with murder yes. Only the jury can decide guilty or not guilty.. I didn't say innocent.

Trayvon Martin had no bruising on his hands - as the coroner and funeral director will testify - only a small laceration on his ring finger. Could NOT have beaten the lying Zimmerman. There is a strong possibility he was beaten earlier and took it out on Trayvon.

That has to be on of the stupidest comments I've read with respect to this case. Hey Sherlock, there are multiple witnesses that saw and heard a fight between the accused and the deceased-- you're "version" of events is a blatant fabrication of your own emotionally compromised faculties and is in direct contradiction to all extent evidence released in the case so far-- including the 911 call where the fight in-progress can be heard in the background.

I think it's entirely possible that Zimmerman pulled the gun on Trayvon before he attacked him since he told the dispatcher he was afraid of Trayvon which is why he wasn't getting out of the car initially. If I was afraid of someone I wouldn't get out of my car without my gun drawn. Maybe that's what happened and Trayvon felt like his life was in danger and his only choice at that time was to attack Zimmerman.

I am uncomfortable with Zimmerman saying that he was beaten to the point of almost being unconscious and yet he was able to get to his gun before a completely coherent Trayvon was. I also don't find the injuries to the back of his head to look like he was beaten to the point of almost unconsciousness.

I do believe Zimmerman shot in self defense. I believe he pushed the situation to the point that Trayvon felt he had to defend himself against someone with a gun who was following him. Personally, I would have run and hid from them and called 911 from my own cell phone.

I do believe that Zimmerman needs to be charged with manslaughter. I think murder is a bit overboard and because they are over charging he will probably get off.

I also find it disturbing that during the tapes where he is talking to his wife about money and their life when this is all over that neither of them seem at all upset or concerned with the fact that a life has been taken. He doesn't seem at all remorseful. Even if it was complete self defense I would expect a "normal" person to be traumatized by the fact that a person died. I would be traumatized if I was involved in any kind of event - even a car accident - if someone died even if the accident was the other persons fault. He seems unfazed by it all. Much like Casey Anthony was so unfazed by the death of her own daughter that it was hard to not think she was the killer. A killer would have no remorse like someone would if someone died due to an accident. He would garner more support if he would have shown some emotion over being involved in something so tragic.

I wish I could be one of the jury members. I really want to hear the story in person and not through the media. We are all so swayed by what we read and hear through the media. In the end, all we have are opinions. The only two people who really know the truth are Trayvon and Zimmerman...and only one of them will have to live with the truth for the rest of his life.

I don't care what Mr. Dedman or anybody from MSNBC says. This story has seriously been OVER REPORTED and the contant use of "white hispanic" has been unfair to say the least. Every other day there is something about Zimmerman or a family member that really is NOT news worthy yet this and other sites are freaking bound and determined to keep it up in the publics face. Let's see now...where does Al sharpton work??? Big (wanna) be player in this story, someting to gain from it etc.. SENSATIONALISMN means MORE $$$$$$$$$$ for MSNBC. LEt's COMPLETELY FORGET ABOUT RESPONSIBLE JOURNALISMN. Hell, with reporting like this we should just be planning a memorial for true journalismn and journalists.

If there ends up being riots, if Zimmerman and/or any of his family members is harmed or killed, if jury tampering or harassment/threats to the jurors occurr then the blame can fairly be laid at the doorstep of MSNBC and others, right to publish what ever they like or not. Nice going MSNBC, way to be fair and help ensure a person can get a fair trial in this country once you all have gotten the scent of a money making story!!!

If you have any true journalists left on staff how's about get to gettin" on some real news worthy stuff?? HEY, would a story about where all the cash Martins' parents are getting for trademarking his name make a good story????? I for one think it would.

To all the commentors hashing the same things over and over again. Get a life. guess, what??? There will be a trial, with REAL ATTORNIES, A REAL JUDGE, AND FOR CRYING OUT LOUD REAL JURORS.

Leave the kid alone as the police instructed you to do and nothing happens. Clearly Martin thought Zimmerman was reaching into his pocket for a weapon. Martin STOOD HIS GROUND. Only problem is the kid wasn't armed. What should have Martin done say "Excuse me sir, are you reaching for a cell phone or a gun?". A person walking home from the convenience store breaking no laws and not wanted on any warrants should never end up dead because some stupid @ss wants to play cop.

the 'zim huggers' don't want to even consider that trayvon struck geoz because he may have believed he was reaching into his jacket for a weapon.

they want to assert this kid, who by all reports, was easy going and happy go lucky would approach geoz, go into a rage, strike him, pound his head on the ground and decide to take geoz's gun away and murder this man who supposedly hasn't laid a finger on him. geoz supporters insist he did all this just because geoz followed him.

some have even prospered the imbecilic notion that he was showing off for his girlfriend who he was speaking to on his cell phone as if she could see what was going on. he had already stated to her that he was going to "walk fast" to get away from geoz. that hardly sounds like showing off.

How many times have they shot people when the situation could of been handled so many other ways this world is screwed

I think you are a bit confussed.

And yet, if he hadn't followed Trayvon he would have had no reason to use his weapon to defend himself.

The conclusion of the police investigation seems to be exactly the opposite. He was not 'jumped,' he placed himself in a bad situation and provoked a confrontation with an innocent man. He then escalated the situation himself and killed the man with whom he had provoked the encounter. If that isn't illegal in Florida, I'd be very surprised.

Any ruling other than homicide will simply open the door to anyone who has a grudge and is willing to kill:

1. Pursue your enemy
2. Provoke into a confrontation
3. Shoot your enemy to death
4. Claim you were simply 'standing your ground' against a suspicious person

That would make for a wonderful country - unless you or I are the 'enemy' in this scenario. Then we're just dead.

So, confused,

If I followed you on your way home, like a stalker, and was asked by you why I was following and instead of telling you why said, "none of your business" and then reached into my pocket which it seems also contained a gun, you would just shrug it off and continue walking right? I'm sorry but if a stalker follows someone and then turns to lethal defense when the subject they are following gets upset, I would say that is an unnecessary use of force.

Jumped? Did you read the report?! Martin was running away towards the house he was staying! How do you "jump" someone by running away and asking "What's your problem?"

From all we know so far, it looks like the only one who felt threatened was Trayvon Martin (from phone conversation with his girlfriend). He had a good reason for that since he was unarmed when George Zimmerman had a gun. It seems that Martin was the one standing his ground in face of an aggressor. His problem was that he had brought Skittles to a gun fight Zimmerman was fully prepared for. I think the 2nd degree homicides charges are appropriate.

Yes indeed, Truthseeker:

Here is a picture taken 9 days before Trayvon was shot

http://globalgrind.com/news/Trayvon-Martin-9-Days-Before-Death-Photo?gpage=1#gtop

In this picture, all of you can see that Trayvon had no tattoos on his face. You can see he is VERY tall and VERY thin. He looks like a very responsible kid who has a bright future.

And yet, he was part of the neighborhood watch, which I believe is clearly notated in the article above. Mr. Thug Life walking down the road is obviously going to raise suspicions.

He was part of the neighborhood watch...but a person wearing a hoodie in the rain while coming back from the corner store hardly sounds like "Mr. Thug Life" to me. There was no need for him to follow this person. He called the police and it should have been left up to the police to come handle the situation.

I don't dispute that Zimmerman ended up having to defend himself at all. I'm just saying it never had to get to that point in the first place.

One thing that does concern me...I think I would be pretty shook up if something like that had just happened and I had shot and killed someone. Am I the only one who finds it odd that Zimmerman is so calm and cool from the time he shoots Trayvon. No remorse. No anxiety. Just calm as he could be. That's really strange to me. Taking a life is a major and traumatic event. I would have expected him to show some incredible emotion for what he'd been through.

It's clear that those who continue to defend Zimmerman's actions have no interest in the truth.

Go looking for a fight and you will usually find one.

What confuses me is that we saw the video of Zim going from the sqad car into the police station. (great work by news to get this because its very revealing) There is no apparent blood on his head. Yet when he goes into the station(station walls with dark brown runner behind) , suddenly we see blood trickling down the back of the head. How did it get there from the car to inside???? Can ANYONE, anywhere answer that. The police who let him go are crooked. The first on the scene wrote him up for Manslaughter. What happened to that? I'm glad the Chief was fired but there is alot more wrong with that Department from within.

Someone Please tell me how Zim got the blood on his head inside the station when we saw him walk in without it. It wasn't taken somewhere else because the walls are the station.

So, let me get this straight. If someone is walking behind me on a sidewalk and I turn around and ask him if he has a problem and he says no, I then have the right to punch him in the nose and bang his head on the sidewalk and it will all be his fault for not doing more to diffuse the situation by telling me why he was following me? Do I have that right? Does anyone else see the insanity of saying that you don't have the right to defend yourself if you are attacked by someone you are following in your neighborhood?

This article leaves out a number of important details. Zimmerman gets out of his car and tries to follow Martin for about ten seconds before he loses sight of him. Then he gets back on the phone with the dispatcher to arrange to meet with the police. But Zimmerman doesn't know the exact address so he goes to the front of a condo to get one. He was returning to his car when Martin confronted him and decides to attack him. At this point, what has Zimmerman done wrong? Even while he was having his head banged on the sidewalk, he doesn't go for his gun until Martin sees it and tries to grab it. That's when Zimmerman beats him to it and shoots Martin. Who wouldn't do the same under the same circumstances? If the races were reversed, no one would be demanding charges against the shooter.

Lou

Who wouldn't do the same under the same circumstances?

I think thats exactly what the defence attorney is going to ask the jury, what would you have done if someone was beating your head into the concrete.

For all you people who are questioning the pictures, dont you think they are going to have the EMT and police testify as to Zimmermans injuries?

So, let me get this straight. If someone is walking behind me on a sidewalk and I turn around and ask him if he has a problem and he says no, I then have the right to punch him in the nose and bang his head on the sidewalk and it will all be his fault for not doing more to diffuse the situation by telling me why he was following me?

In my opinion, if someone is walking behind you on a sidewalk, after following you in their car and won't answer your question directly or introduce themselves and tell you why they appear to be stalking you - then you have every right to be afraid of this person or defend yourself against them.

Trayvon still attacked George Z. Whether Trayvon was provoked or not doesn't make a difference.

Can you prove this Apeaser??? Didnt think so.....

you all have thoughtful comments

Yes indeed, Truthseeker:

Here is a picture taken 9 days before Trayvon was shot

#gtop

In this picture, all of you can see that Trayvon had no tattoos on his face. You can see he is VERY tall and VERY thin. He looks like a very responsible kid who has a bright future.

I think there's a website somewhere that has baby photos of Hitler and Stalin. Can you show me a photo of Trayvon just before he attacked George Z?

daryl-2183015

K. Snider, in fact, if he hadn't carried the weapon nobody would have been more than bloodied a little (in my opinion deservedly so).

Self defense is not defending yourself in a confrontation you start.

Self defense is not using a weapon when you get your butt kicked in a fight you started.

Tell that same line to the family of Juan Del Valle who was punched twice by Joey Scott in the Bronx. OK it took a week for Juan to die. He was a bit more than bloodied and never had the chance to defend himself. OH the reason he was punched? He clipped the mirror of an illegally parked car and got out like a good citizen to provide insurance information instead of just running off like Joey Scott did after the beat down. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47883270/#.T-pN8PW8jzI

As to what constitutes self defense... go read FL Statute 776 then get back to us.

From the article......

"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party's concern. There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter. Zimmerman, by his statements made to the call taker and recorded for review, and his statements made to investigators following the shooting death of Martin, made it clear that he had already reached a faulty conclusion as to Martin's purpose for being in the neighborhood."

And that, ladies and gentleman, is exactly why George Zimmerman is going to prison. As he should! Also, if you think Angela Corey isn't going to parley this prosecution for her benefit (meaning, little Georgie going bye-bye), you'd be wrong!

Too many speculations from the armchair Fornsic Specialists (Absent of any Scientific Methodolgy to retrieve data.) but you omit subjective information. The Cell Phone conversation timelines, transcripts and the recored EMS Documentation required by Federal LAW to be submitted to the Prosecution and Defense. The x-ray reports and interpretations to LEGALLY document injuries and the COMPLETE PATHOLOGY REPORT of deceased seventeen year old Martin. Seventeen year old males are NOT ADULTS. Forming opinions based upon fact is more reasonable and indicative of complete brain function as opposed to use of non reasoning capabilities reacting from pure emotion. No matter how you feel about this case, it will not be judged or found upon your opinions and reactions. None of you have access to the facts.

Whether Trayvon was provoked or not doesn't make a difference.

Funny, you seem to have no problem with the gun owner defending himself, but you don't seem to think it is ok for Trayvon to defend himself? He'd been stalked by this dude for 10-20 minutes, had actually initiated a conversation in which Zimmerman had a chance to explain himself and his concerns about Trayvon's intentions (and didn't). Then, this guy who has been following him reaches into his pocket for who knows what. You gonna wait until he draws on you, or are you going to defend yourself?

Roy Wilson Wants the Fox News Treatment for this story. OK. New Headline:

"Police Say Travyon Martin is Dead Because He threatened George Zimmerman"

There you go, same story twisted headline.

Lou, according to the Stand Your Ground laws, you do indeed absolutely have that right, and Trayvon Martin had that right.

Now that would not be the case in a state without a Stand Your Ground law, but of course, Florida does have such a law.

This George is so stupid. What if Trayvon himself had a gun, and instead of punching him, pulled out his gun and shot him. Then stupid George would be the dead one with his gun tucked inside.

Lie Detector or not. I still don't believe George's story.

Jorge Zorro'man' had his gun out. Tray was cornered, at this point in a last desperate move he attacked Jorge. The grass was slippery and wet. George fell back hitting his head but still managed to get a shot off.

"Rights" and "judgement" are not the same thing. Both individuals had the right to be where they were. Martin was minding his own business. He was unarmed. He is a minor full of adolescent testosterone. Zimmerman is the adult. He has the concealed weapon. He is in pursuit. He controls all the cards. His actions frighten Martin and Martin uses poor adolescent judgement. Zimmerman uses poor adult judgement. Sorry, but "rights" are not the real issue here. The jury will look to see if under the "rights" was the right judgement used. The police seem to think Zimmerman had the wrong judgement call.

So Fred ;

was Zimmerman supposed to wait till his brains started coming out before he defended himself?

I do have one small question about all this: Has anyone except me noticed that GZ has lost a crapload of weight? It looks like he has dropped from a booking weight of 240 (versus an autopsy weight of 151 for TM) down to around maybe 175 or so. Is this a legal strategy? Is he gonna claim that he was intimidated because the skinny kid was so tall? Or does a prison sentence in what amounts to solitary confinement trouble him so much that he can't eat.

I hope that people realize that ANY sentence that results in jail time will be spent in solitary "protective" confinement. About three months of this drives people flat buggy and they never really recover. People who are pedophiles, or celebrities, or are involved in racial incidents are not permitted in the general population in jails because they don't survive long. It is a common objection in appeals that people kept in protective custody in jail become so mentally unstable that they are unable to assist in their own defense or appeal.

Wow! There are really people who defend this wannabee cop's actions. My two WHITE 16 and 18 year old boys would have been walking home with their hoodies pulled up in the rain too. I certainly don't want them shot dead because of it. They certainly would have been concerned if some grown man was stalking them first in a vehicle and then on foot. They would have been more than alarmed if after all that he approached them and reached into his jacket for WHAEVER reason after not identifyng himself. Mr. Zimmerman, however, would have received more than a scratch or two on his head. Both my boys are Varsity football players. Not tall and skinny like Trayvon-carrying Skittles and Tea. Mr. Zimmerman would have carried a full on ass whipping. OH BUT WAIT!!! This would have never happened--- Both my boys are CAUCASIAN.

Good Luck Mr. Zimmerman explaining your other lies about your bond money to the judge. Your credibility is SHOT!!! Just as you elected to shoot Trayvon Martin dead.

momz2boyz,

My two WHITE 16 and 18 year old boys would have been walking home with their hoodies pulled up in the rain too. I certainly don't want them shot dead because of it.

Of course you are correct....

OH BUT WAIT!!! This would have never happened--- Both my boys are CAUCASIAN.

Yup...

This is a complicated case because, at least at face value, both individuals seemed to have a right to defend themselves-- Trayvon from a perceived stalker, George from a perceived mugger. Here are some points to consider:

1. It is not illegal to follow someone absent a restraining order or other legally binding document banning such behavior with respect to specified individuals or entities.

2. It is illegal to physically assault someone, regardless of provocation.

3. In assault/self-defense cases, head injuries are regarded by the courts as "inherently life threatening," regardless of degree of sustained damage. See the link at comment 2.21 for a good example of why.

4. Lethal force is authorized in self-defense if the individual feels that either their life is in immediate danger and/or they are in immediate danger of "great bodily harm." See #3 again, for the sake of clarification.

5. Zimmerman has defensive and other injuries that corroborate his version of events.

6. Trayvon has no defensive injuries of any kind-- only a scrape on his knuckle and the gunshot wound. This also corroborates Zimmerman's version of events that he was attacked and reacted defensively.

7. One eye-witness states that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman punching him in the face.

8. Zimmerman has actively cooperated with the police and other investigators at every step of the case and has turned himself over into custody on 3 separate occasions: immediately after the incident for interrogation, once charges were filed, and again when his bail was revoked.

9. Zimmerman's wife lied about their financial assets under oath. (Not exactly germane to the self-defense case directly, but I know someone's going to bring it up).

10. Zimmerman passed the police "voice stress test," which is used extensively by law enforcement but is not admittable evidence.

11. Zimmerman has a history of violence that is documented in the courts (no convictions).

12. Trayvon has a history of delinquency documented by his school.

13. The initial detective recommended a manslaughter charge be brought against Zimmerman, but the DA threw it out, citing FLA's "Stand Your Ground Law" and the lack of evidence against his version of events.

Food for thought. I still feel that this article from the Daily Beast/Newsweek summed up the case best-- it was written May 22nd, so please be advised that it is a little dated, but the information about the chances of conviction still hold water:

George Zimmerman Will Never Be Convicted of Murdering Trayvon Martin

Have to find it interesting in his "written report" that he continuously refers to Trayvon as "The Suspect". And in one place he says that Trayvon was casually walking, and another he was acting suspicious. Which is it? This guy isa wanna be cop, and I think made half of this crap up, but is so deluded that HE actually believes it, therefore the voice inflection testing etc. is coming back true. Why didn't Trayvon have a right to ask this guy what his problem was?? HE was following Trayvon, in a dark SUV, then on foot in the rain? Why wasn't this 17 year old allowed to be afraid or alarmed? Don't we teach our children that??? He was a CHILD, I don't care how tall he was or what color his skin was. If it was "suspicious" for Trayvon not to be hurrying to get out of the rain, how suspicious was it for Zimmerman to GO INTO the rain to follow Trayvon?? He absolutely may have asked Zimmerman what his problem was, but I totally don't believe Trayvon said, "Your gonna die tonight M-Fer". He had to put that in there to show he was "afraid" he was going to die to save his own ass. It just doesn't fit. His whole statement RIGHT AFTER this traumatic event was already rehearsed. Who would think to preface their statement with the full history of the Scooby Do Zimmerman Gang when they had just put a gun, point blank, in the exact spot of a kid's heart and killed him? And why in his statement at the bond hearing did he say to the court and Trayvon's family, "I thought he was older, like me", when he said, on tape, that he was an older teen looking kid? BECAUSE HE IS A LIAR.

2. It is illegal to physically assault someone, regardless of provocation.

So the Stand Your Ground Law means what?

Trayvon attacked Zimmerman. Zimmerman had every right to stand his ground. He almost got his head bashed in but did eventually save his own life.

whatpartof

So Fred ;

was Zimmerman supposed to wait till his brains started coming out before he defended himself?

No, he should have STAYED IN HIS CAR LIKE THE COPS TOLD HIM TO. Was Trayvon to wait until Zimmerman had jumped him after being followed for 20 minutes by someone?

Zimmerman forced this confrontation, a minor is now dead because Zimmerman wouldn't wait for the cops. He is now responsible for the outcome, as he was impatient and overzealous.

Classic case of manslaughter. The adult is responsible for the outcome of the scenario he put in place.

Zimmerman had every right to stand his ground.

No, he didn't. If you stalk someone until you back them into a corner, you ARE NOT STANDING YOUR GROUND, you are the aggressor.

Fred Evil

I guess reading isn't one of your skill sets... or you just parrot what others blindly spoon out there for you.

Florida Stalking statute 784.048. The statute REQUIRES REPEATED following or harassment. No EVIDENCE that George followed more than once and until they met the second time George had no direct interaction with Trayvon other than following him.

STAYED IN HIS CAR LIKE THE COPS TOLD HIM TO.

I am really getting sick of people spouting that falsehood. Provide a link to where the POLICE told George to stay in his car. The dispatcher is NOT a police officer and has no police powers or authority. Even if they did hey NEVER EVER told George to stay in his car. Provide the link or admit you have been biotch slapped by not responding.

No, he didn't. If you stalk someone until you back them into a corner,

What corner would that be exactly? There were at least 3 ways out of the are besides the one George was in. Trayvon was in no way trapped, unless he was hiding between the partition fences.

you ARE NOT STANDING YOUR GROUND, you are the aggressor.

Florida statute 776.041 2a and 2b allows an aggressor to exercise self defense.

Welcome to FLORIDA LAW or in short FLAWED.

Sort of reminds me of an old, now rescinded, PA law... When two vehicles shall come to an intersection simultaneously, neither shall proceed until the other. Obviously FL law makers don't read what they sign into law any better than 1890's ones in PA.

Florida Stalking statute 784.048. The statute REQUIRES REPEATED following or harassment

So just because it isn't codified into law it isn't harassment? You are familiar with the fact that laws are often (VERY often in these days of teh internet) WAY out of date? Clearly a silly point, insults re:reading skill notwithstanding.

Provide a link to where the POLICE told George to stay in his car.

Oh NOES! It was a DISPATCHER! So what? He called the POLICE NON-EMERGENCY LINE, what he got should have been understood to be a police-related conversation. Calling the person a dispatcher is pulling the wool over your own eyes. The bottom line is he called for help, and when it was offered (advice to NOT follow Trayvon) he ignored it.

What corner would that be exactly?

The corner in which a MINOR was followed but someone with a car, someone who stalked him for an extended period of time, and certainly put enough fear into him for him to call and discuss it with his girlfriend. If he were a women, he could have been kidnapped 3 or 4 times over by then.

Welcome to FLORIDA LAW or in short FLAWED.

Well, at least one part of your post was relevant and accurate.

Jumped? Did you read the report?! Martin was running away towards the house he was staying! How do you "jump" someone by running away and asking "What's your problem?"

Although I am, at this point in time, leaning towards Zimmerman being in the wrong - I think I understand that Martin was headed toward the house where he was staying at one time, but he came back to ask Zimmerman what his problem was - I wonder why he didn't just go in the house instead of confronting the man who was following him. I would have been too scared to confront him. I would have gone in my house and locked the doors and called 911. But, maybe that's because I'm a girl.

But, maybe Zimmerman tracked him down again before he could get into his house. I don't know. Eventually I hope the truth of the timeline and where the two guys were when the actual physical altercation happened.

The only way Zimmerman gets off clean is if they only have a murder charge on the table - if that's the jury's only choice for conviction, he will probably walk. But, I don't know how safe he will be if he gets off. Even by the comments and votes on this site the majority of people think he should be convicted of something and do some time.

But, maybe Zimmerman tracked him down again before he could get into his house. I don't know. Eventually I hope the truth of the timeline and where the two guys were when the actual physical altercation happened.

Except Trayvon had successfully lost George when he ran (walked fast?) and turned the corner on the final stretch to where he was staying.

I would have gone in my house and locked the doors and called 911

Would you have waited to get home or called from your cell phone? Trayvon called his gf who lives several cities away. Not 9-1-1. Not even his father.

Even by the comments and votes on this site the majority of people think he should be convicted of something and do some time.

While I feel George is FELONY stupid that isn't a law on the books anywhere in the USA. Neither George or Trayvon broke any law on the books prior to the physical altercation, based on the evidence we are aware of. Who ever threw the first punch, whether it connected or not, would be guilty of assault. Once the fight started both could begin considering SYG/self defense (not that most people are weighing the legalities in the middle of a fight).

Under FL LAW... even the aggressor is entitled to self defense. If the jury goes strictly by the law George gets a walk. If even ONE juror has reasonable doubt George walks on the shooting. Then we get down to spaghetti justice... How many charges will Corey throw to see what sticks.

My prediction? The criminal trial will be a circus and a farce, and in the end, Zimmerman will walk.

The civil trial will begin and it will be a circus and a farce and Zimmerman will be found responsible and have his wages garnished hereunto forever.

Fred Evil

Florida Stalking statute 784.048. The statute REQUIRES REPEATED following or harassment

So just because it isn't codified into law it isn't harassment?

Legally? NO.

Oh NOES! It was a DISPATCHER! So what? He called the POLICE NON-EMERGENCY LINE, what he got should have been understood to be a police-related conversation.

Talk to SCOTUS. If it isn't a police officer it doesn't have police powers. And he called the non emergency DISPATCH number. That number can summon police, fire, ambulance, and low and behold animal control. Same as 9-1-1 except it is for non emergencies. From what we know George was a frequent caller.. He more than likely has the number on speed dial. Also more than likely he was told by POLICE in person that if it wasn't life and death or a fire he needed to quit with 9-1-1 and call the non emergency number.

The corner in which a MINOR was followed

Interesting you switch from followed here to stalked in the next part of your sentence. But again what corner? We seem to now know that Trayvon not only gave George the slip but that gave him FOUR ways to leave the area. No corners. George also now knows Trayvon was a minor. That seems to fit the description of YOUNG Black male. You remember the same description of those committing crimes in the area.

but someone with a car, someone who stalked him

Not according to the LAW and really not something that we would otherwise consider stalking except it fits a need here.

for an extended period of time

hmmm 4 minutes maybe 5? I've "followed" someone longer driving to and from work.

certainly put enough fear into him for him to call and discuss it with his girlfriend.

Obviously he wasn't that concerned for his safety. If he had been he would have called someone who could have done something. The call to his gf was more of a "Hold my iced tea. Watch this."

If he were a women, he could have been kidnapped 3 or 4 times over by then.

If he were a woman the worst George would have done was given a cat call... she wouldn't fit the description.

Well, at least one part of your post was relevant and accurate.

Sadly you and I agree on that yet the FL Legislature and former Governor apparently can't read and they are the ones who implemented the crap.

WMG-21

My prediction? The criminal trial will be a circus and a farce, and in the end, Zimmerman will walk.

The civil trial will begin and it will be a circus and a farce and Zimmerman will be found responsible and have his wages garnished hereunto forever.

Sorry. If he walks on the shooting charges he walks on the civil ones... as does the HOA

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer,

Sorry. If he walks on the shooting charges he walks on the civil ones...

Tell that to O.J.

While I recognize that the laws are different, if the case is declared a mistrial or he is otherwise acquitted without a "Not Guilty" verdict, he can still be sued in civil court. The judge must proactively accept the "Stand Your Ground" defense and apply its protections unto Zimmerman or he would still be susceptible to civil liability. He can plead for its protections again in civil court, but I imagine, in the course of the circus, it would be dismissed for one reason or another.

In any case, I see absolutely no way for a criminal conviction to be successful in this case. Enough evidence backs Zimmerman's events that a conviction is nearly an impossibility-- there's a reason that the initial DA declined to prosecute the case. Then again, it's Florida. I didn't think there was any way in hell that Casey Anthony would walk, either. There's always surprises to be had in the American criminal justice system as it is unevenly applied across the states.

WMG-21

I'm not sure how it goes if he isn't cleared by the judge or a not guilty but not found guilty.. confused yet lol?

The reality is this. If 776 provides protection then civil is out the door and the state reimburses George and pays the legal fees. If he is found guilty he has no assets, that we know of so suing George is an exercise in giving the lawyers more money. The only other potential target of a lawsuit is the HOA and short of a posted schedule of duty hours for the hoa showing George on duty it will be another exercise in putting money in the lawyers pockets. Besides the Martins have claimed all along that this is about "justice" and not money.

there's a reason that the initial DA declined to prosecute the case.

Agree 100%. And politics is the only reason Corey took on the case.

I didn't think there was any way in hell that Casey Anthony would walk, either.

Before the trial I thought she was going to sit on death row for a long time.. Once the prosecution rested I was thinking that the prosecution was going to be lynched. I've said this elsewhere but will repeat here.. This case will come down to who brings the best "show" to court. I expect quite the dog and pony show actually... Since the Prosecution doesn't have a lot of real evidence they had better get some damn good thoroughbreds and Westminster dog show winners to come to court.

Oh and Corey is playing the same throw it at the wall and see what sticks as the state did in CA.

I see absolutely no way for a criminal conviction to be successful in this case.

@ wmg-21 #2.45

unfortunately, i have to agree. even though much of geoz's tale(s) of what occurred sound unbelievably convoluted and almost impossible (his filmed re-enactment is a great example) so far, there's no witnesses to disprove his story(s).

i have increasing doubts about geoz's claim of receiving his head splitting injuries from trayvon banging it on the smooth walkway. it seems it would take quite a bit of force (more than trayvon would have had) to create an open wound to the head unless being pounded into a jagged surface. one supporter has concluded that geoz may have hit his head on a nearby tree trunk. i'm in wonder about the flashlight that was found on the scene that had blood on it. there are comments that geoz was carrying a flashlight.

Enough evidence backs Zimmerman's events that a conviction is nearly an impossibility

unless the prosecutor has some hella good evidence, we don't know about, to prove the tales of events are contrived, i gotta agree, winning isn't likely.

there's a reason that the initial DA declined to prosecute the case.

yeah, and i wonder if the reason the special prosecutor overcharging was just to grandstand for trayvon's parents and supporters. maybe the evidence is so shoddy she felt she had no chance of winning the case no matter the charge.

this extreme charge (though i think he deserves it) caused me to distrust the cory when i heard it. having to prove a depraved disregard for life (something like that) sounds like pretty heavy lifting to me.

hopefully trayvon's parents will be able to file a civil suit. by the way, they stated "this is not a black and white issue; it's an issue about right or wrong." i've never heard them mention a single word about this not being about money.

trust_verify

i have increasing doubts about geoz's claim of receiving his head splitting injuries from trayvon banging it on the smooth walkway

You have NEVER believed it so how could you have increasing doubts? RARELY is concrete "smooth". Sidewalks are deliberately roughed to provide traction, especially in places where it rains. I keep seeing this banging the head against the tree.... The gashes were left to right.. a tree would be vertical. The argument that George was close cropped at the time and thus Trayvon could not get a grip is BS. A hand on each side would work or as George poorly describes one hand attempting to smother. I guess none of the Trayvon camp has ever picked up a football, basketball or bowling ball(without using finger holes). Considering that Trayvon was lightly built I presume he handled the football in some manner rather than tackling or blocking.

this extreme charge (though i think he deserves it) caused me to distrust the cory when i heard it. having to prove a depraved disregard for life (something like that) sounds like pretty heavy lifting to me.

I think you are starting to see where we (Georges camp) are coming from. I'm not saying you have switched sides only that you understand our side of the argument now. I for one could have been convinced with reckless or involuntary homicide/manslaughter but murder,as you say, is grandstanding. I think she went for the politics and was hoping for a plea.. then Marrisa Alexander happened to sentence at the same time as this. If they were looking just for the sentence of time they could have probably proved assault in some form combined it with 10-20-life due to the gun and gotten the desired "justice" result. Not sure the public would be happy with 25 to life based off of basically jay walking but it would have gotten the job done.

when a head is bashed on a flat surface it takes some velocity to break it open. unlike a basketball geoz would have been putting up resistance rather than just laying motionless and allowing his head to be bounced like an inanimate object. it doesn't seem realistic to me that trayvon would have been able to stirke geoz's head to the (flat) pavement with enough force to bust it open.

geoz's head injuries ran vertical however, most of the blood flow ran horizontal, pooling behind the ears. this makes it apparent that geoz was not on his back the entire time during the beating incident. as has been pointed in other posts (mr perryvine, i believe) there was no spatter or smear pattern as there would be with the head striking the ground.

irene46

Read the latest evidence release... it takes a couple hours if you don't skim. One of the things to notice in SEVERAL of the witness statements is that the altercation moved about, including squirming on the ground. No one has ever claimed George was on his back the "entire" time and if you recall at the end George was standing and leaning over Trayvon, after the shot.

As to velocity... It doesn't take a lot of force to break the skin. Nor when one is having their head pounded does it take a lot to BELIEVE you are in serious trouble. Granted a basketball doesn't resist but no one has claimed his head was being dribbled.. the argument has been that the head could not be held without using fingernails.

Why is there a "requirement" for the injuries to run one way or the other. What was the orientation of the head striking the ground to what he struck? A lot would depend on where the edges of the sidewalk are and if there is a pattern (roughing) of the surface.

I guess the question comes down to what is the argument THIS TIME about the injuries? First it was they did not exist. Then it was they are self inflicted. Read the information release and you will see George did not have ALONE time to do jack. He was seen straddling Trayvon, trayons leg kicked/twitched and someone arrived with a flashlight followed almost immediately by a police officer with his own flashlight. That is ALL in the witness statements in the information release. Happy reading.

The more we see of this the more it looks like Zimmerman was stalking Martin, and Martin had the right to stand his ground and defend himself against an armed stalker.

You read this article where the police report states that Zimmerman had ample opportunity to diffuse the situation? That he intentionally pursued Martin while maintaining he was "afraid" of him? And you think that Zimmerman is exonerated?

Ummmm, okay?

Confussued - why shouldn't Martin have the ability to feel "protected" with someone following him around, both in a vehicle and on foot? Stand your ground only applies if you have a gun? Martin should have ran and hid, while Zimmerman was well within his rights?

I'm guessing there's more to these opinions above than simply the facts.

Travon the attacker...if that is not the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. A 16 yr old attacking a grwon man with a gun. He kills the teenager and some can't figure out why they won't throw this case out. Bunch of racist idots.

If you are being stalked by someone, and you walk up to them and ask "What's your problem?" and you say "I don't have one." And then reach into your pocket...what is the person being stalked supposed to think you are reaching for? Especially since the person being stalked doesn't know why you are stalking him. Would you punch him out, I sure as hell would. He could have been reaching for anything at that point. So how was Martin the attacker here??

He so looks like he was in a life and death struggle. I mean look at those scratches. I guess all cat fights should end with someone being shot too.

JRM-2912907

For one thing Martin wasn't confronted by Zimmerman. There for he wasn’t the one being stalked at that time, he had already lost Zimmerman the shoe was on the other foot so to speak, and if he still felt he was being stalked he should have done what every animal in this world does (unless your meaner and bigger) RUN. Thinking you are being stalked doesn't give you the right to confront your
stalker, we have police CALL THEM. He had a phone.

dmd... Did you actually read this article?

michealangelo2

Why does this have to be racist? I have never mentioned race in any of my posts.

Confussed:

Thinking you are being stalked doesn't give you the right to confront your
stalker, we have police CALL THEM. He had a phone.

Thinking someone is up to no good doesn't give you the right to confront them after you've called 911 and they've told you to wait for the police. We have police. WAIT FOR THEM TO THEIR JOB. They have guns.

verno

Why would you confront a stalker?

Guys - all the gun-toting morons on here who want to see Zimmerman set free, and think he was justified, are the same types of morons who would love to shoot a black person just for fun (but would never admit to it). The intelligence level of these people should be discounted. They don't possess the reading comprehension skills or the deductive reasoning capacity for rational thought. They are just racist bullies, tough guys, but behind a computer screen.

Kat-1745504

How do you know Zimmerman confronted Martin? That isn't the problem with this case anyway. The problem is the bullet was fired while Zimmerman was on his back and Martin was on top. People saw their positions so who attacked who doesn't matter when a person is on top of you, you become the prey.

Confussed -

Travon's phone calls indicate that he knew he was being pursued. So yes, he was being followed and he knew it. Then his pursuer leaves his car and continues to follow.

We only have Zimmerman's story that says he was confronted by Martin. For all we know - Zimmerman caught up and cornered him - or otherwise confronted him. Nothing says otherwise. In any case, the only aggressive act up to that point was a 17 y/o kid with a bag of skittles being followed by an older and (I believe) larger adult in poor weather. I seriously doubt that Martin had any reason to believe it was for the purpose of offering a ride to get out of the rain.

Why is incumbent on Martin to be the only one to flee. Zimmerman admits he lost sight of him - thus suggesting he was fleeing.

"Thinking you are being stalked doesn't give you the right to confront your stalke(r)"

But thinking someone is "suspicious" gives Zimmerman the right to pursue as well? And those same police told Zimmerman not to pursue Martin. Seems only one side is being held to a higher standard.

I don't know that I believe that Zimmerman is guilty of murder - mostly because I don't believe that he went out with the intention of killing anyone (premeditated). But I do believe that his actions were reckless if not outright negligent. That he was RESPONSIBLE for this event, and hence a manslaughter charge.

Why does this have to be racist? I have never mentioned race in any of my posts.

You don't have to make a racist comment for others to see what your intentions are.

dmd-433801

Read the pdf reports; Per the police; Trayvon Martin used neither a deadly weapon or deadly force. The situation was ultimately avoidable, had GZ identified himself, and there is no indication that TM was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter. How do you conclude aquittal is "forth coming" after reading that?

JRM-2912907,

I hope you are wrong and only because I hope it deters more crime.

FlyingEnergy

And yet people like you still exist. Can you read what that means?

daryl-

Stick a sock in it, You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I have a CCW and carry almost all the time. I was carjacked with a knife to my neck and did not shoot the perp. As soon as he had the keys we were moving away from each other with his back to me. At that point, the situation was "defused" and I would not have been justified in using lethal force. It did take 11 months for the justice system to resolve it but the perp will be spending quite a few years in prison.

As to your attempt to paint the issue with racist over tones, He was hispanic and I am caucasian.

Here is a picture taken 9 days before Trayvon was shot

http://globalgrind.com/news/Trayvon-Martin-9-Days-Before-Death-Photo?gpage=1#gtop

In this picture, all of you can see that Trayvon had no tattoos on his face. You can see he is VERY tall and VERY thin. He looks like a very responsible kid who has a bright future.

I wish GZ had wondered WHY watch groups have suggestions. If he had he might have discovered the answer was because they had the COMMON SENSE that GZ lacked

Verno

Would you punch him out, I sure as hell would. He could have been reaching for anything at that point. So how was Martin the attacker here??

He threw the first punch, which makes him the attacker, doesnt GZ have the same right to protect himself as Martin does, nobody did anything illegal until that first punch was thrown, then both parties have the right to defend themselves, by whatever means necessary.

@ John and Steve, It doesn't PROVE he was sucker punched,it only shows that a fight took place.Just because he was getting the best of Zimmerman doesn't mean HE started the fight.

daryl-2183015

Confused, you aren't watching the stats then.

In states that have enacted "stand your ground" laws deaths are up significantly, both "self-defense" and non-self defense. And finally, some of these false "self-defense" murders are being prosecuted. Look at Houston last week, hopefully Zimmerman and a few more of these human hunters.

Really? Seriously? Cite your source. ALL deaths are DOWN combined. Of course self defense deaths will be up slightly as they are now RECOGNIZED for what they are rather than manslaughter or murder.

What about Houston last week? Or are you referring to the event in Austin where the father BEAT the pervert to death with his fists (hmmm how could that happen, fists aren't deadly are they?) when the father found him molesting his 5 year old daughter? perhaps he should have called 9-1-1 and waited for them to arrive while the perp finished raping his daughter?

Yes we are watching the stats. Victims are tired of being victimized and are choosing to have the option to defend themselves. The stats seem to show things are working. Criminals are having second thoughts apparently considering that normally when there is a recession crime goes up not down.

One small point: According to the timeline released by the police, it is a little different that what @Confussed is pretending. If you go find the timeline (it is readily available using google) and then go to Google Earth and zoom in on the gated community, you will find something very instructive. GZ pursued TM in the rain in his car. But TM started running and GZ was unable to keep him in sight so he got out of his car and started chasing him on foot. Since TM was trying to run home, nothing should have really happened since a 240-lb short fatty wouldn't be expected to catch a 150-lb high school athlete. But TM run up the wrong street. (You can see on google earth that everything looks the same in the series of rental condos.) Instead of running home as he intended, TM ran up a cul-de-sac. You can follow his path on google earth pretty readily. It is when he tried to retrace his steps from the dead nd street that GZ confronted him.

There is a statutory need in virtually all states that before using deadly force in such a situation, you must try to flee if there is such an option. TM tried to flee. GZ did not. The Florida SYG law was never intended to abrogate the need to flee if possible, but was intended ONLY to clarify that one need not flee of no route is available and to introduce the additional NRA-sponsored issue that it is okay to use deadly force in defense of property (something not at issue in this case.)

Steve-2081387

Verno

He threw the first punch, which makes him the attacker, doesnt GZ have the same right to protect himself as Martin does, nobody did anything illegal until that first punch was thrown, then both parties have the right to defend themselves, by whatever means necessary.

I don't see that holding water from the standpoint that by the time Martin allegedly threw a first punch he was was already being "accosted" by Zimmerman's interference and likely afraid of what Zimmerman was up to. There is just no getting around that the entire sequence of events was initiated by Zimmerman and not Martin.

Zimmerman had the responsibility to act the adult which was his role and he failed to do that. He also failed in his responsibility as a neighborhood watch person by approaching Martin while armed. He also came into the situation with an "attitude" based intent. His assessment of Martin was false and predicated on profiling based on Martin's dress, race and the fact he didn't recognize him.

Basically, Zimmerman's actions were uncalled for, inept and lethal...for that he should stand accountable. Also, given the psychotropic medication types he takes, he should not be allowed to carry a concealed weapon at all.

those in camp 'z' harp on trayvon throwing the first punch but fail to address how geoz had followed and chased trayvon through the complex.

trayvon inquires as to why geoz's following him. rather than fulfilling the role of a responsible authoritarian and responding to a perfectly logical question, he reaches into his jacket (allegedly for his phone). under the circumstances, trayvon could have seen this as a threatening move.

if trayvon thought this stranger was drawing a weapon, most people ('z' huggers excluded) could understand trayvon attempting to defend himself by punching him.

irene46

those in camp 'z' harp on trayvon throwing the first punch but fail to address how geoz had followed and chased trayvon through the complex.

Those in camp m harp on how George followed trayvon twisting things with words yet fail to understand that George did nothing illegal and trayvon throwing a punch was assault and battery with depraved indifference. Legally once George was down ANY claim to SYG that Trayvon had was over until George got back up.

Camp m wants the court of law to punish George for following the law because Trayvon broke the law.

The more I learn, the more I am convinced he is a Sociopath. I posted a list of characteristics yesterday and he fit most of them. It also would easily explain how he passed the voice stress test. Sociopaths are pathological liars, so lying is usually not stressful to them. Unfortunately for Zimmerman, he is not nearly as intelligent as he believes himself to be, or he would not have told such stupid lies! He lied about the money - easily proven. He lied to police and said he had no criminal history - VERY easily verified lie. He lied and said he had never been to a court ordered pre-trial diversion program - LIE. He said in court that he didn't know how old Trayvon was and that he thought he looked his age (28), but he told the 911 dispatcher that he looked like a TEENAGER - lie under oath

http://www.sociopathicstyle.com/traits/classic.htm 

Lies, lies and more lies. And STUPID lies at that. It's not a big stretch to believe that he probably lied about what happened that tragic night. But it doesn't matter to the the Zimmerman apologists and the racists because they will defend the lying little Sociopath no matter what he or his lying family says or does. They actually take pride in helping him pay off his Sam's Club and American Express cards. Pathetic.

DLux-439201 - The more I learn, the more I am convinced he is a Sociopath.

Certainly the psychoactive drugs Zimmerman was on didn't help, since they are known to cause paranoia and aggression.

Amen DLux I agree with you and have for a long time, since reading the first article on this case. Like another poster said he showed no remorse, he does not tell the truth, and he seems to have anger issues.

The med's he is taking have serious side affects. Temazepam causes numbed emotions, hallucinations, aggression and violence. This is not the first time Zimmerman was violent, he attacked a drug enforcement officer, attacked his former girlfriend and threw a women across a room when he was a bouncer. I believe he passed the voice stress because of the numbed emotions caused by his meds.

It's funny how none of them (the supporters) have replied to this post. Perhaps because there's simply no way to defend this. The mere mention of his name now sickens me. I find it incomprehensible that people can blindly support someone and believe everything he says when it's been proven that he's lied to the court and mostly that the other party involved cannot speak his side. It's simply mind-boggling.

It really doesn't matter who thinks Zimmerman is guilty or not guilty, it's up to a jury to decide. A lot of scrutiny will be given to the law itself and how it is written.

I hope Zimmerman gets a fair trial. The judge should put a gag order on this case. Media attention, right or wrong, isn't helping when it comes time to find an impartial jury. The responses here demonstrate that quite clearly.

It's sad a young man is dead. It should never have happened in my opinion. I think Zimmerman is morally guilty and responsible, but legally? That will depend on the stand your ground law and how it's interpreted.

What I find interesting is, you have those that continue to 'sing GZs praise's' for ridding the world of another 'thug'. If they actually took the time to view the video reenactment, the audio of all his statements to police that night, and days following, they would come to the realization that they're supporting a cold-hearted killer!

I have to commend those investigators for being able to do their job and maintain professional composure and not come right out and call GZ the the LIAR they knew, and we all know him to be! This fool literally felt he was someone in authority...when he repeatedly refers to Trayvon on his written statement as "the suspect". Ironically, on the very same statement, right above where D. Singleton signs her name is the line titled "Report Contains"...she writes "Suspect Statement". Seems pretty clear to me they considered him a suspect from the beginning.

I can not beleive you can make statements like this. I guess it is a free country but to be this racist I would expect you to be out shooting at cars or something for the repression of the poor black person. You mention a undercover alcohol enforcement officer 5 years ago. Bring up Trayvon hitting a city bus driver TWO days before. Bring up Trayvon martins post on the BLACK FOOT SOLDIERS web site with the Kill Whitey sign and the girl laying on the ground. To bad that the person laying on the ground could not have been your Mother or Sister, KAT or RHAMA. Maybe Trayvon could have broken into your house next,. Bring up the jewelery found in his backpack when he was busted in school and suspended for the third time. The final toxicology report have not been released yet for Trayvon martin. Do not be suprised..

SirBentley007

. To bad that the person laying on the ground could not have been your Mother or Sister, KAT or RHAMA.

You sure know how to make things difficult... I may not like the views of Kat or Rhama... especially the latter as we have history, but I have to ask you to cite your sources of the information on your claims. I've seen the CLAIM of Trayvon claiming to hit a bus driver but have yet to have someone cite the reliable source... and claiming the FB page has been sanitized doesn't really sell it. Now the blackfoot soldiers thing... again citations and links to reasonable sources please. A blog or youtube video doesn't cut it.

And the tox reports have been released. We know that Trayvon at some point had consumed MJ. My GUESS would be sometime between the morning he was suspended for possession of the baggie and the morning he was shot. That guess is based on the trace amounts of metabolized THC in his system.

If they actually took the time to view the video reenactment

Since you are convinced in part through the video reenactment how do you reconcile that with the fact that there were no direct witnesses to the altercation so the reenactment is pure conjecture based on interpretation of the contradictory "facts"? There is no more support of your position than opposing views.

Since you are convinced in part through the video reenactment how do you reconcile that with the fact that there were no direct witnesses to the altercation so the reenactment is pure conjecture based on interpretation of the contradictory "facts"? There is no more support of your position than opposing views.

HUH???? Sorry, I'm not "the thinker" you are?!

@ At SirBentley

Is that you George? If not you sound just like him!

tracyfearson, who taught you right from wrong?

murder is murder.

no one told him to get out the damn car.

he put himself in the predicament he is in. thats it.

if he had stayed in the car and waited for police to do their job, trayvon would be alive and zimmerman wouldn't be in jail.

he took matters into his own hands and he was instructed not to.

he disobeyed the police himself, got out of his (safe) vehicle, and confronted the poor kid, whom by the way, he was afraid of.(so he says)

HE CAUSED THE SITUATION, THE FIGHT , THE PREDICAMENT, THE ISSUE AT HAND..WHATEVER YOU WANT TO TITLE IT AS...

He was the reason why the child was confronted and put in the defensive situation to begin with.

Its like a cop goes up to a crowd of people and punches someone and the guy punches him back in self defense,

and then the guy gets arrested for assaulting an officer.

the officer should be at fault... considering he started the fight to begin with.

Zimmerman thinks he is defending himself by saying his life was in danger..

It would not have been if you didn't put the child in a predicament where he had to defend his own life.

"He was the reason why the child was confronted and put in the defensive situation to begin with."

Too funny. Did you see a picture of the 17 year old Trayvon??????
Too funny.

Officer Santiago wrote that he "observed a key chain lying NEAR the T portion of the walkway, a black flashlight lying on the grass just east of the key chain.

Santiago also wrote that he "noticed a black cell phone near the area of Martin"

Therefore, the key chain and the black cell phone (note: I am not talking about the headset) were at least 30 feet apart.

Conclusion:

If the fight was way down the sidewalk at the T , that is where Trayvon would have been shot based upon Zimmerman's statement that he shot Trayvon while his (Zimmerman's) head was being pounded on the sidewalk by Trayvon .

.

.

Therefore, George Zimmerman did NOT shoot Trayvon Martin in self defense.

.

.

#1.105 - Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:41 AM EDT (This comment was under a poster's comment that was collapsed)

Mark-----

.

Here is a picture taken 9 days before Trayvon was shot

http://globalgrind.com/news/Trayvon-Martin-9-Days-Before-Death-Photo?gpage=1#gtop

In this picture, all of you can see that Trayvon had no tattoos on his face. You can see he is VERY tall and VERY thin. He looks like a very responsible kid who has a bright future.

you all, that's not Trayvon.

I think they are having a sale on prescription glasses this weekend. DON'T MISS IT!

trayvon had just a small trace of thc in his system which would indicate he probably had not smoked for a some time. i've heard marijuana traces remain in the body for about a month so if he had smoked that day it sounds like there would have been more than a trace of thc.

what's amusing is all of these geoz huggers believe every word that rolls off his lying tongue and it's now being revealed that the trained investigating officers weren't swallowing a single word.

several parts of his re-enactment were pretty incredulous. he stated i "had my firearm on my right hip and my jacket moved up and he saw it, i feel like he saw it, and he looked at it". the claim trayvon said "you're going to die tonight" THEN reaches for the gun sounds ridiculous. he allegedly grips trayvon's hand under his right armpit but is able to pull his weapon with that same right arm is even more outlandish. his further fantasy is that after trayvon is struck in the heart he sits up and says "you got me".

no wonder the police wanted to arrest his lying behind. he should have been locked up for insulting their intelligence.

Mark Taft

you all, that's not Trayvon.

Seriously?? You can't be that thick...

Well, in zimmer's defense, a smart person would have done what you said.

Whoever threw the first punch is the one guilty of assault. Before that either could have avoided confrontation by simply not throwing a punch and walking away.

Before that either could have avoided confrontation by simply not throwing a punch and walking away.

And before that Zimmerman could have avoided a confrontation by using his head and waiting for the police. Zimmerman escalated the entire thing by getting himself involved in a situation that was clearly beyond his realm of expertise. He obviously lacked the skill needed to communicate reasonably with other humans without the situation turning deadly.

Kat-1745504

He obviously lacked the skill needed to communicate reasonably with other humans without the situation turning deadly.

You appear to be speaking about Trayvon. What civilized person greets someone then sucker punches them? Apparently Joey Scott went to the same Ms Manners course.

What civilized person greets someone then sucker punches them?

And you know this how? Apparently you blindly accept Zimmerman's word. A man who is a proven liar. A man who has a record of violent behavior. trust_verify. Is that name a joke or something? Better replace "verify" with "blindly." Seems to be more appropriate for you. :)

Benefit of doubt as to judgement goes to the unarmed scared adolescent (still-forming brain). The adult, armed male who had the commanding position on the unfolding events needs to be held to a higher standard as it relates to the use of judgement, regardless of his legal rights.

@ b707320c #5.6...

great point.

trayvon inquired as to why this total stranger was had been following him. rather than giving him an answer, geoz reaches into his jacket for his cell phone (he alleges). possibly to trayvon's thinking (and many others), he may have been going for a weapon.

Good point.....if everybody hid in their houses and stayed behind locked car doors and NEVER ever think od standing up for your self, your family, your neighbors, your home or your country then we would never see any violence.........

Well except the violence criminal predators put on weak sheeple that is.

Great plan.

Whoever threw the first punch is the one guilty of assault. Before that either could have avoided confrontation by simply not throwing a punch and walking away.

Horse manure...Traygone could've thrown a punch in self-defense...as in stand your ground, if Triggerman had approached him in an aggressive manner; TM would've been protected under the Castle doctrine...Gunnerman, on the other hand, has nothing to stand on.

DonKeehaawtee

Horse manure...Traygone could've thrown a punch in self-defense..

No evidence that George approached Trayvon in any manner. The reality is that throwing a punch is assault unless the other party physically attacks first. Even if you shoot for self defense there has to be REASONABLE BELIEF of imminent bodily injury or death. someone walking in a public area does not constitute that belief. Though as of late in light of numerous Black males in the age range of 16 to 30 it is becoming common knowledge that one can expect them to sucker punch people. Trayvon, the kids at Auburn and Joey Scott in the Bronx have all demonstrated that standard.

YOU need to read the FL Statute 776 before trotting out syg. Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law and certainly not in your case since this and the law have been around for a while.

TM would've been protected under the Castle doctrine

Really? Trayvon was in a dwelling or vehicle? Those are the only places that Castle Doctrine apply unless extended by SYG.

.Gunnerman, on the other hand, has nothing to stand on.

had nothing to stand on as he was flat on his back and defenseless with Trayvon on top beating his azz as the Martin camp is fond to repeat.

@ azrancher #5.8...

yeah, azrancher, we should all arm ourselves like geoz and decide strangers walking in our neighborhoods are suspicious, chase them down, and refuse to explain if they ask why they're being pursued. if a fight ensues we can always shot them dead and yell self defense.

if some of the victims turn out to be unarmed teens, oh well, that's just the price of standing up for yourself.

do i have it right?

At this point, it doesn't matter what the facts are. With all that the media, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and Obama have done to stir up racial unrest, if Zimmerman is found Not Guilty, there will be rioting. Remember the innocent white guy who was dragged from his truck, thrown to the ground, and then had his head bashed in by a black cretin with a brick after the Rodney King verdict? Now is the time to be carrying concealed.... with any luck, the news cameras will be rolling when 8 or 10 cretins are gunned down trying to maim or murder another one. Of course, NBC will edit the tape and run the headline, "white trucker massacres black kids".... and there will be Jesse and Al....

Trayvon threw the first punch. At least we do know that much.
Did you see the picture of Trayvon at the time of the incident?

At this point, it doesn't matter what the facts are. With all that the media, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and Obama have done to stir up racial unrest, if Zimmerman is found Not Guilty, there will be rioting. Remember the innocent white guy who was dragged from his truck, thrown to the ground, and then had his head bashed in by a black cretin with a brick after the Rodney King verdict? fedup # 5.12

so the media should have just ignored the entire story? al sharpton and jesse jackson should have refused trayvon's parent's request for their assistance? a young white college grad obtaining over 2 million signatures to arrest geoz was not media worthy?

i'll really be surprised if there is rioting even if geoz gets off on the twisted syg law. there were not riots when the nypd were found not guilty of shooting an unarmed young black college immigrate 19 times. al sharpton did lead protests...not riots.

let's not forget that blacks were not the only ones participating in the l a riots. about half were hispanics. both were 'fed up' with police brutality. the media now only focuses on the black rioters.

the beating of reginald denny was horrific and i definitely disagree with the 'slap on the wrist' sentencing just as i disagree with the same light sentencing the police received.

wasn't it a black guy that braved the vicious crowd to come to reginald's rescue to drive him to the hospital? not all black men are thugs.

irene, keep making excuses.

@ mark taft #5.15...

what are you talking about? who am i making excuses for?

Ummm you just did, Obama has the same right to make comments just like you, so what's your point?

Obama's problem is he throws out his opinion without knowing all the facts. He certainly did on the Trayvon killing and he did exactly the same thing in the Henry Lewis Gates fiasco. Unfortunately I think our president is a bit racist himself.

Mark

You want so much to make this Trayvon's fault and of course the President's fault. What is very possible is that both George and Trayvon were hot heads and both had ADHD. I don't know if Trayvon did but, I know that George was taking meds for it and it is not an over the counter drug. It was prescribled by a doctor. So, an unstable wannabe cop with a gun and a young kid who was not taking any crap. Bad combination and if George did not have that gun, he would not have had the balls to get any where near Trayvon and the call to the police would have saved Trayvon's life and George from from a ruined life. Hind sight but true.

I don't care what happens to Zimmerman. He is a nutjob. Still we have to remember Trayvon was suspended from school for using drugs. Had he not been suspended he wouldn't have been in Sanford and therefore would still be alive.
Drugs killed Trayvon.

no matter what reason trayvon was there it does not change the fact that geoz followed him, there was a confrontation and geoz pulled out a gun (not a bag of weed) and shot him.

the same thing would have happened had trayvon been visiting his father for a trip to disney world.

Is that like saying, "If the glove don't fit, you must acquit."?

Stonepipe:

It WAS NOT a through & through wound.....the bullet remained in Trayvons chest

First, Zimmerman is a world class dumbass, he did exactly the opposite of what law enforcement told him to do. I have been predicting a hung jury almost from the start. What I am saying is with his melon all scratched up and (does anyone know?) they will be able to tell if he fired while on his back or if Z. was standing and fired in a fit of rage. Only two people know what happened and one doesn't have a whole lot to say, so like I said ballistics might decide the verdict.

stonepipe

First, Zimmerman is a world class dumbass,

Agreed. If stupid was a criminal offense George would have been a convicted felon long ago.

he did exactly the opposite of what law enforcement told him to do.

WHO exactly told George WHAT to do WHEN? Are you referring to the DISPATCHER, who has no legal authority of police powers who ADVISED, per the prosecutions own words, "We don't need you do do that" when George acknowledged he HAD been following the suspicious person?

I have been predicting a hung jury almost from the start

Hmm what words to use.. I want to say worst but it depends on the reaction that George walks on the shooting... the bail is a different issue. George will walk either on a single juror or all 12. Very unlikely to get a conviction due to reasonable doubt, and it only takes one.

if Z. was standing and fired in a fit of rage. Only two people know what happened and one doesn't have a whole lot to say, so like I said ballistics might decide the verdict.

Ballistics report is in. Shot from between 2" and 4" almost square on to the chest. Several witnesses state Trayvon on top, one isn't so sure and places the larger person on top... a bit confusing as George weighs more but Trayvon was taller. 2.5 liters of blood inside the body cavity with the bullet hitting the lung and left side of the heart. Trayvons body was found face down with one arm underneath by police when they arrived and George standing near the body.

As you said to start. George is a dumbass. My theory goes he meant to scare Trayvon and fired by accident and was too stupid to admit it. It is too late for both side to fall back on that.

Z is going to get acquitted on murder 2 charges. They might of got him on manslaughter or negligent homicide, but neither of those would of created a positive media frenzy for the prosecution.

People need to stop watching CSI / Law & Order / ect. Gives a false idea about how this works.

He goes into that court room as an innocent man, he and his defense are not required to prove his innocence. The prosecution is required to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he committed murder in the 2nd degree, as defined by law not internet forumz commentators. That's going to be a very hard sell to any jury. All his defense needs to do is convince one juror (although more helps) that there is a reasonable doubt and no conviction happens.

The prosecution is actually hurting it's case by attempting character assassination in the media. With as much media attention and how negatively they've been portraying Z, the defense will get a good chance at appeals due to a contaminated jury. So while the prosecution is playing a good political game, their putting themselves into a bad legal position.

And yes George Z is a dumb ass idiot. Neither being a dumb ass nor being an idiot is illegal in the USA. Walking down a street is not illegal, nor is following someone (barring restraining order). So while all these acts might not be smart or in good sense, they are not illegal. Ultimately you got two guys getting into a fight that results in one with injuries to his head and the other with injuries to his knuckles and a gun shot wound to the chest. It very much centers on the question of who threw the first punch, as they become the aggressor and whomever they were trying to hit gets the stand your ground defense.

Also that the police say "he could of avoided it" means absolutely nothing to the trial itself. It's put out there as more character assassination only. The Stand Your Ground Defense does not require George Z first attempt escape, he isn't required to avoid the confrontation. If the defense can display that there is a reasonable chance that Martin Trayvon threw the first punch, and that as a result George Z felt his life was in danger, then they get an acquittal.

While being stupid isn't against the law Zimmermans stupidity caused another to lose his life. He instigated the attack by following this young man and not listening to the police. He didn't identify himself. This young man was walking down a public street. He was not peeking in windows, not casing the neighborhood. He had done nothing wrong till Zimmerman started following him.

While this killing may not have been premeditated, it was Zimmermans fault.

So Zimmerman is guilty by virtue of being stupid just for following someone, as opposed to the guy who "supposedly" (according to the evidence) initiated the actual violence... hmmm, interesting... you can now justify any black on white crime by labeling the white person "stupid" for walking anywhere near a black neighborhood...

Well we already knew Zimmerman was stupid. I think this story is just fluff.

asking americans to think first before responding is like asking kim kardashian to stay married

All I got from that story was the cops were trained poorly. So what you are saying is the cops in this case did a horrible job? Yes, I concur.

All we have is Zimmerman's statement that he was attacked first. His statement is not factual since we have no other evidence to support it. We have more evidence that supports (by his own words and actions) that Zimmerman created a situation that ended in an unarmed teenager being killed. It's going to trial as it should.

If evidence shows up that zimmerman threw the first punch, he's a murderer. If not, he's aquitted. Even if zimmerman was a racist SOB profiling this guy, its all a matter of who threw the first punch. If I follow a guy I don't like, the DO NOT have the right to come up and assault me.

Sure jim, try that sometime.

If I follow a guy I don't like, the DO NOT have the right to come up and assault me.

So what, then? Kill him?

they should call the police and tell them some weird guy called "Jim Reality" is following me. If they cant do that, they run- especially if they are a long and lanky kid and I'm a pudgy slow dude. That's called avoiding confrontation. They should not approach, throw punches, and pin me to the ground. Whoever starts a physical assault is the one that is justifiably dead.

Jim, you can't go around killing people who punch. And I'm not even saying Martin threw the first punch. We don't know who did. And since Zimmerman has been proven to be a liar already, his credibility is questionable at this point, in my opinion. I've already responded to one of your posts that I don't think teenagers are wired to call the cops. Especially 17-year-old black ones. The cops don't take them seriously and I think the whole thing probably happened really fast. So go read my other post... I don't want to repeat myself here.

If the case was dismissed you wouldn't be posting, obviously that isn't gong to happen.

yes you can kill someone they start punching you- if they started it. Dont punch people. Dont jump on them.

Jim Reality

yes you can kill someone they start punching you- if they started it. Dont punch people. Dont jump on them.

Sure you can...but you will be arrested and rightly charged with homicide...there's a thing known as using equal force used in defending yourself. The law does not allow people to kill people for punching them..nor should it.

"I had to kill her, your honor, she slapped my face and embarrassed me in front of the whole gang."

Realistic Woman

The only injuries on Trayvon was the bullet hole and some knuckle scrapes. So you are saying that Zimmerman got all the head lacerations, broken nose and back injury after Trayvon was shot?

Last time I checked...autopsy report stated that Trayvon had no DNA evidence from GZ on his hands, nor any injuries to his hands to indicate he'd hit anyone, not to mention the severity of the beating GZ claims to have gotten. So I ask, where's the gloves Trayvon must've been wearing to whoop up on poor GZ? I can see if he maybe swung the can of tea and cold cocked him...but he had every right to defend himself. Where's the black eyes, and protective nose covering father Zimmerman says GZ was sporting when he saw him...matter of fact he was with GZ the next day at the reenactment. So, looks like LYING runs in the family!

ethnicbutee

Last time I checked...autopsy report stated that Trayvon had no DNA evidence from GZ on his hands

Why would there be DNA on Trayvons hands? He hit him in the face before there was any blood. there were mixed samples of blood on Trayvons clothing, two or more males but not enough to make an ID.

, nor any injuries to his hands to indicate he'd hit anyone,

Other than the abrasion on his knuckle?

not to mention the severity of the beating GZ claims to have gotten.

Under FL Statute 776 there is no requirement of injury only reasonable belief that serious bodily injury is imminent. Same with the Self Defense laws... Reasonable Belief is the bar not physical harm or death.

.but he had every right to defend himself

Defend himself from what precisely? We have no EVIDENCE that George approached or threatened Trayvon in any manner other than speaking to him. You would be the first since this whole mess started that can provide evidence that George made or posed a threat prior to ending up on the ground with Trayvon on top.

Where's the black eyes, and protective nose covering father Zimmerman says GZ was sporting when he saw him.

Fair question.. It is near impossible to see Georges eyes in the police video of the reenactment... what is clear are the bandages to the back of his head AND the gash or other mark along the left side of his nose.. His eyes are either in shadow or dark through out the video.

trust_verify

it's been a while...I do sooo look forward to your replies.

Just like GZ...those are my statements, and I'm sticking to it! Nice try though!

trust_verify, Bravo!!!! Well said.

ethnicbutee

Just like GZ...those are my statements, and I'm sticking to it! Nice try though!

Been here on MOST of the State of FL vs Zimmerman threads.. or is it MSNBC vs Zimmerman.. it gets confusing at times LOL

I would hope you could more than just stand by the statements.. I did ask for proof that Trayvon had to defend himself from ANYTHING besides words.

trust_verify

I would hope you could more than just stand by the statements.. I did ask for proof that Trayvon had to defend himself from ANYTHING besides words.

As soon as GZ can prove that he received the life threatening beating that warranted him shooting and killing Trayvon. See how that goes both ways?! Why is it not enough, if it is proven, that Trayvon punched, or maybe struck with ice tea can, that it wasn't out of fear after being followed, stalked by this unknown person, by car, then on foot...and once face to face, he sees this person reach in their pocket(GZ own admission) for who knows what, that he wouldn't defend himself? Why should he have to flee, again. Come on now, the perceived threat that night was more than WORDS!

ethnicbutee, you did read that they found the can of cold ice tea in Trayvon's pocket, didn't you? If not, re-read the article.

ethnicbutee

As soon as GZ can prove that he received the life threatening beating that warranted him shooting and killing Trayvon.

Lets break your requirement into the component pieces in the eyes of the LAW as that is what matters right?

When the SPD and later the SFD arrived George "displayed" (spd choice of words) injuries consistent with a beating by fists. His nose was bloodied and swollen and his lip was swollen. George also had fresh lacerations to the back of his head. There are multiple witnesses of George and Trayvon fighting and one of the throwing punches. Trayvon has no facial injuries and only an abrasion on his knuckle, consistent with throwing a punch. By process of elimination it had to be Trayvon throwing the punches and George receiving them based on the fresh injuries on George and lack of injuries to Trayvon. So there is the PROOF that George did receive injuries during the physical altercation.

FL Law does NOT REQUIRE life threatening injuries to justify Self Defense. The requirement is only slightly lower. The FL STATUTE 776 requires "Reasonable Belief of IMMINENT serious bodily injury OR death. Thus there is no REQUIREMENT of actual injuries only what a reasonable person would believe to be imminent delivery of those injuries. A person on their back with an attacker on top of them who had just broken their nose would reasonably believe more serious injuries were imminent.. which meets the LEGAL requirement.

Do you consider yourself a reasonable person? If someone had just bloodied your nose and given you a fat lip, not even a broken nose just blood and swelling, would you fee threatened? With that person still sitting on top of you would you feel serious injury was imminent? Tell us NO and I'm sure there is a line of people who would gladly demonstrate ON you.

Come on now, the perceived threat that night was more than WORDS!

Perceived threat? By all appearances Trayvon had put distance between himself and George. I'll even give that Trayvon had every right to come up to George and as WTF are you up to. With the caveat that if anyone goes up to another person they are putting themselves in the box by their own choice with any number of consequences. There was no imminent threat until someone started swinging. that is the 25 to life question.

Two people walk up to each other in a public area.. say the city park in a city where neither resides. legally they can do pretty much anything short of making physical contact. They can ignore each other and just keeping walking. They could say hello. They could yell and scream at each other including name calling and profanities. They can have a stare down. They can even call attention to the other person by pointing out perceived issues to other people. What they can't do is physically touch or attempt to touch or threaten by action (assault). They can even follow each other all around the PUBLIC park... In Florida they can only do that once though so if they lose or break off following and do it a second time it is stalking.. that applies to the name calling and other UNWANTED verbal exchanges. Best we know George only followed once.. though continuous. he did not follow again and only responded to Trayvons words when they met again.

Why should he have to flee, again.

Flee from what and why? Being "cornered"? I wasn't the one claiming he was cornered. I explained he had the ability to leave if he chose to do so.

So you now have "proof". Your turn. Prove that Trayvon had to defend himself from ANYTHING besides words. Yes reaching for ones pocket can be read wrong. Still no REASONABLE BELIEF of imminent bodily injury or death. If you insist that Trayvon reasonably believed reaching into a pocket was a threat then you have no choice but to accept that getting a bloodied nose was reasonable belief. At that point they are BOTH entitled to SYG and it is a matter of who survives that has the better claim as dead people are only entitled to have their body treated with dignity.

funneme

ethnicbutee, you did read that they found the can of cold ice tea in Trayvon's pocket, didn't you? If not, re-read the article.

Actually, yes I did read that in the first evidence dump. Question you should be asking is, how did the can of tea find it's way in the pocket of his hoodie when, 1) it was placed in the bag at 7-11 and, 2) the tan 7-11 bag was laying in the grass torn. Remember also, GZ states in his call, "He's got something in his hands."

So, for arguments sake, let's say that the initial confrontation caused the tea to be dislodged from the bag. If we're to believe GZs reenactment, he was first sucker punched at the top of the 'T', stumbled approx 50 ft, at which time was mounted by Trayvon, then had his head repeatedly bashed against the sidewalk. Where was the tea during all of this?! Remember, the body, cell phone, tan bag, are not found near the T, only GZ keys and flashlight. Even if he dropped the bag with the tea still in it, while he was supposedly giving GZ the MMA style whooping of his life, when/how did he have time to pick up only the tea, and not the bag, and place in his pocket?

The fact the tea was found in his pocket can be explained, imo, 2 ways...1) in an attempt to break free of GZs grasp on him, he swung/threw it at GZ striking him in the nose, maybe back of the head, and it falls to the ground. GZ is stunned momentarily, Trayvon has a chance to recover his dropped items, puts tea in his pocket. GZ recovers, altercation begins again and they both go down...2) During GZs attempt to restrain Trayvon, he strikes GZ in face with can of tea, during the struggle, they both go down with Trayvon on top and GZ strikes head on sidewalk, items fall in the grass.

After shooting and while he was on Trayvon's back spreading out his hands, he notices the can of tea, puts tea in his pocket before placing his hands under him. Remember W6 John, states body was in sprawled position when he first saw it, this is confirmed by GZ in his reenactment video. Of course, this is all speculation on my part. I use the can of tea as likely cause of GZ injuries because GZ and his supporters want us to believe that Trayvon punched, smothered, gripped and banged his head against the sidewalk...yet there's no trace DNA from GZ on Trayvon as proof he even touched GZ...like I asked previously, was he wearing gloves?!?!?!

I'd welcome any thoughts you may have as to how the tea ended up in his pocket...

trust_verify

Lets break your requirement into the component pieces in the eyes of the LAW as that is what matters right?

When the SPD and later the SFD arrived George "displayed" (spd choice of words) injuries consistent with a beating by fists.

Per Ofc Timothy Smith report..."while in close proximity to GZ, GZ was bleeding from the nose and back of his head. He makes no statement that injuries are consistent with being beaten with fists! No statements, audio or written, from SFD EMT's indicate that either. They discount his injuries as 'non life threatening', stated may require sutures, cleaned him up in 5 mins and sent him on his way. At no point has it been established how GZ sustained his injuries, except the story he's telling.

There are multiple witnesses of George and Trayvon fighting and one of the throwing punches. Trayvon has no facial injuries and only an abrasion on his knuckle, consistent with throwing a punch. By process of elimination it had to be Trayvon throwing the punches and George receiving them based on the fresh injuries on George and lack of injuries to Trayvon. So there is the PROOF that George did receive injuries during the physical altercation.

There were witnesses placing Trayvon on top of GZ at some point. One witness, John (W6), initially claimed to see Trayvon throwing MMA style punches, but he recanted that statement shortly after giving it. According to coroner report, 1/4 x 1/8 inch abrasion on his left fourth finger, hardly consistent with throwing a punch. Sorry, not PROOF that injuries resulted in him being punched.

Do you consider yourself a reasonable person? If someone had just bloodied your nose and given you a fat lip, not even a broken nose just blood and swelling, would you fee threatened? With that person still sitting on top of you would you feel serious injury was imminent? Tell us NO and I'm sure there is a line of people who would gladly demonstrate ON you.

Absolutely I consider myself a reasonable person! One that uses, practical common sense...which is why I wouldn't not put myself in a position to have all those things you mention, happen to me! Only someone such as GZ, non reasonable, and lacking common sense, would do that!

As to your response to the below...

Come on now, the perceived threat that night was more than WORDS!

Why should he have to flee, again

see my initial post...like GZ, I stand by my statement ;-)

see my initial post...like GZ, I stand by my statement ;-)

so like GZ you want your word taken at face value?

At least George has injuries to back up that he was HIT with something.. Be it a tea or a fist. Either is assault.

W6 only recanted the manner of the beating not the fact that Trayvon was on top.

I guess we will have more to talk about next week if the judge sets a new bail. I 'm disappointed with the reporting... they set up a juicy ... forensic account gave testimony... then didn't give us on detail. Only the response to the later cross exam where there are 4 accounts and had been transactions under 10 grand. The funny thing is the whole 10k reporting requirement is for CASH to prevent money laundering.. OH and to all you would be drug money launderers the bank is also required to report transactions that appear to be structured to avoid the 10k reporting.. so feel free to go to 20 branches and deposit 500 at each one over less than an month and they will still file a report. I had really wanted to hear the details of the dollars and transactions and WHO did what including simply accessed the balance and from where.

trust_verify

so like GZ you want your word taken at face value?

Cute...more like, that's MY statement and I'm sticking to it. You know, like no matter how Serino attempted to get GZ to admit what REALLY happened...he didn't waver!

I 'm disappointed with the reporting... they set up a juicy

I agree, I was less than impressed with O'Mara's performance today.

I agree, I was less than impressed with O'Mara's performance today.

Are you saying O'Mara has "performance issues" 8-)

I didn't see the "show". I was trying to find ANY story online that had details. Haven't looked yet this morning but MSNBC, ABC, CBS, CNN and the locals in FL all seemed to have the same lack of detail on what the accountant had to say.

LOL...good one, performance issues. That'd be a question for spouse/partner.

The forensic accountant...imho, didn't do much in favor of the defense. Actually, end up proving what the prosecution stated...they schemed to hide the money.

Actually, end up proving what the prosecution stated...they schemed to hide the money.

I'd still like to read the details on that scheming. As I said I didn't see the "show". All I've heard was the multiple accounts and the shuffle the money.

I'm guessing this is going to be another Casey Anthony... cleared of the real charges and slapped with the how stupid can you get stuff.

Police have a right to investigate. The police told him to stay in his vehicle. He could have followed him from the vehicle to further aid the police if he was concerned. I don't know what his motives were, but if you are afraid and you have already informed the police, you wait. I don't think his intent was to shoot and kill but he obviously wasn't trying to avoid a confrontation. But we should all wait and see what comes out in the trial.

jpinnj6

The police told him to stay in his vehicle.

Show us a link, audio, transcript that the police or even the dispatcher made any such statement.

He could have followed him from the vehicle to further aid the police if he was concerned.

Really? He should just have followed Trayvon by driving up on the sidewalk and grass into the backyards of his neighbors? Had he done that, even I would give Trayvon a gun and help him shoot.

I don't think his intent was to shoot and kill but he obviously wasn't trying to avoid a confrontation.

Agree on the intent.. not so sure on the confrontation... He obviously wanted the police to catch the suspicious person. Note I'm in Georges corner and trying to be reasonable.

But we should all wait and see what comes out in the trial.

Bingo. That includes the one sided reporting on MSNBC and other sites.

He obviously wanted the police to catch the suspicious person.

But you see, that's the entire point...there was no suspicious person except in Zimmerman's mind.

Zimmerman's mindset and actions based on it is what got someone killed.

It was a 911 Operator that told him to stay in the vehicle. Glorified telemarketers that read from a script and make minimum wage. They hold no power. If you think listening to a 911 operator is necessary ask that man in Denver following their word... oh wait you cant because he is dead. Shot after returning to the scene of an accident/road rage.

Just about the time of the Trayvon was shot there was a woman in a house with someone trying to break in. The 911 operator is telling the woman not to use the gun as the guy comes through the front window, so the lady shot the intruder dead. The Police arrived just a few minutes later. It takes 45 seconds for an intruder to break in, hunt you down and shoot you dead. The operator was only following a script for her not to fire, because she could accidentally shoot an officer. Given the timeline, the woman did the right thing by ignoring the 911 operator.

trust_verify:: You said that "He obviously wanted the police to catch the suspicious person. Note I'm in Georges corner and trying to be reasonable."

If Trayvon was such a suspicious person, GZ could have stayed in the car. What if Trayvon was a criminal toting a gun? No, GZ was a perfect ackjass.

GZ thought that by calling non emergency, there wouldn't be a record of the call. How stupid of him...because if he did, you wouldn't hear the ridiculous BS and inconsistencies in his reenactment video. However, his written statement matches exactly!!! His story is full of holes. The SS GZ is sinking faster than the Titanic.

If Trayvon was such a suspicious person, GZ could have stayed in the car. What if Trayvon was a criminal toting a gun? No, GZ was a perfect ackjass.

I have contended all along that George was a few loads shy of a full brick. Yes he could and probably should have stayed in his vehicle. Neither stupid or exiting a vehicle is illegal. What if Trayvon had a gun??? then someone would be dead.. maybe Trayvon or maybe George.. What if is a fun game but gets old and boring in short order. What if Trayvon had not been caught holding an empty baggie? What if either one had been 60 seconds sooner or later to the clubhouse? what if it had not been raining?

Here is a fact that will come out in court. George could have done all sorts of stupid stuff prior to losing Trayvon and short of doing something illegal it does not matter. What matters, in a court of law, is what happened when they met that second time. They could have called each other names that first time and mouthed off all they wanted to. Even that second encounter they could have run their mouths until they depleted all the oxygen on the planet and still neither one had the right to take a swing or pull a gun. Once the physical altercation was in full swing, pardon the pun, unless one was retreating the other had the right to use any and all means to defend themselves.. that is the law. Being on the bottom George could retreat no further. Unless Trayvon was retreating, and there is no evidence of that, the fight was on and Self Defense if not SYG applied.

Now tell us how fists are not deadly. Joey Scott in the Bronx and the father in TX have shown just how lethal fists can be. Just as the 9th grade girl in Long Beach CA did in the past few months.

Let's cut to the chase. Two bad people came together that night and one was killed.
Now one will go on trial. He will either be guilty or innocent.
End of story.
Now go on about your business.

Uh, no.

With the bond hearing days away, sure hope the attorneys for GZ and SheLie have advised them it is best to come clean about the money, that they did INTENTIONALLY mislead the court, and not try to spin the tired excuse of being in fear, and whatever else they'll try to spin. It would be foolish to say anything other than the truth!

A fool and his money...

ethnicbutee

. It would be foolish to say anything other than the truth!

I doubt the defense will say much about the prior proceeding other than apologize to the court and move forward. Saying anything would only serve to provide evidence against shellie. Even she will be lawyered up this time.

trust_verify

They both can sit there like 'potted palms' this time...

Actually Zimmerman may walk. And not necessarily due to the facts that come out. He may walk just because it is impossible to find twelve impartial jurors. Face the facts. Do you think there are twelve people in Florida (or the entire US) that are truly impartial? If you can't seat a jury, you have to let him go.
Maybe they can move the trial to Iceland. LOL

he will be better in the jail house

He started the confrontation. The law doesn't say that you can follow someone, scare them to death, cause them to defend themselves, and then shoot them because you suddenly realize that you are in over your head and should have sat in your car and kept your self out of it and let the police do their job. Zimmerman will be punished. His actions invalidated any standing that he had under the Stand Your Ground law. Even Bush admitted that Zimmerman's actions were not exonerated by the law.

No you dont know who started the confrontation. That is debatable. Thats a rush to judgement. You nor I were there but you have him convicted. In fact by the same things said in the article that he had 2 chances to confront him and didnt could very well show he was trying to avoid him and just watch him for police and Trayvon started it. Thats the point, we dont know.

All we have is Zimmerman's account of what happened and no killer ever admits that he/she was in the wrong. The police report said that Zimmerman had 2 times to identify himself to Trayvon, which he never did. You can hear Trayvon ask Zimmerman why are you following me? Zimmerman never identifies himself. Then the phone was dropped as Trayvon ran. How is that avoidance when you walk up to someone you are supposed to be afraid of? Really twisted?! Please use some common sense here.

Amused

The law doesn't say that you can follow someone, scare them to death, cause them to defend themselves, and then shoot them because you suddenly realize that you are in over your head and should have sat in your car and kept your self out of it and let the police do their job.

Now all you have to do is prove thats what happened in court.

Realistic

You can hear Trayvon ask Zimmerman why are you following me?

I havent heard that on any tape, which tape are you talking about?

tw1sted

No you dont know who started the confrontation. That is debatable. Thats a rush to judgement.

No, it isn't - and yes we do know who started the entire situation that led to any confrontation. That alone is what Zimmerman is culpable of.

And if I am his lawyer i say it only confirms he was trying to avoid him from fear but watching and waiting for the cops to come and then Trayvon came to him. If he had confronted him earlier it then to me would show he was not scared.

So now go get 12 peers to take your side over mine without a shadow of a doubt and convict him. I just gave you your doubt. Case closed. The law on the books is what it is. Now that is not the whole case. But your rush to judgement was just countered

Wrong MacD... it was started at the first punch. who threw that? Martin should have called police to tell them some creep was following him rather than assaulting zimmerman.

Oh, right Jim (out-of-touch with) Reality. And how do you think the cops respond to a 17-year-old black kid who calls them? They don't. If you were in Martin's shoes, would you call the cops? Think about it now and be honest. I bet you wouldn't. Teenagers don't think that way. They're not wired to yet. Maybe if he was in his own house and someone was trying to break in he might. But not in a situation like this. It was probably all happening pretty fast and this kid didn't know what to think. He probably had no idea wtf Zimmerman wanted because the idiot never said anything. He didn't act like a neighborhood watchman was supposed to. I just can't understand how some of you people can't even imagine that Martin might not be the bad guy here. Why the tunnel vision?

Seems to me that Martin had every right to be in fear for his life and therefor had every reason to punch Zimmerman first. Zimmerman, as the aggressor, started the fight by exiting his vehicle and accusatorially approaching Martin outside, in the dark. Any reasonable person would be frightened of Zimmerman in this situation. If it was me, I would have been fearful. Zimmerman then begins a verbal fight, instead of walking away, and waiting for the police as he was instructed to do. Who threw the first punch is irrelevant at this point because he was the initial aggressor, he ignored not only the neighborhood watch regulations, but also ignored direct instructions from police. You can't instigate a fight with someone, murder them, then claim self-defense. If that was the case, then we'd all go around starting fights with our enemies, killing them and saying "oh well they threw the first punch, so I can't be punished.."

ok Kat, if he didnt want to call the cops he should have run. period. Its not ok for teenagers to feel like they want to take a few pop shots at someone they feel is dissing them or some they dont like.

actually poorgirl- you probably could do that to your enemies if they are stupid enough to take your bait. If you bait them into throwing the first punches, get them to leap on top of you and bang your head into the ground, then yes you can shoot them in self defense.

Shouldda, couldda, wouldda... The point is that this all happened so fast and Martin was at a disadvantage for a several reasons:

1. He didn't know the area too well

2. He didn't know Zimmerman was suspicious of him

3. He didn't know why Zimmerman was pursuing him

4. He didn't know Zimmerman was a neighborhood watchman

5. He didn't know Zimmerman had a history of violence

6. He didn't know Zimmerman was going to shoot him with a gun

All this kid knew was that it was half-time and he most likely wanted to get back to give his "brother" the Skittles he asked for. He probably didn't want to be messing around with some guy who was looking at him and just wanted whatever was going on to be over. That's how 17-year-olds think. They don't rationalize about what might happen and think ahead of consequences. I've raised kids and been around a lot of them over the years and have seen first hand that no matter how smart they are, the one thing they have in common is that they don't think about details and others' actions/thoughts. At this point in their lives everything is about them and how they see the world. It doesn't matter how smart they are, either. I've known very smart kids who've gone to Ivy League schools who don't have the slightest bit of common sense. Adults are on these boards are speculating about how Martin should have acted but they're not thinking like teenagers! Especially teenagers in that kind of situation. Hell, I don't even know what I'd do as an adult in that situation. Stop putting the onus on Martin saying he should have walked away from the situation. It was a situation he never started. Zimmerman started it with all his ridiculous suspicions.

Kat, you are spot-on. I am a white, somewhat dumpie 56-year old boomer (who occasionally wears a hoodie in the rain). Clearly, at my age, I would have been very differential to Zimmerman and would probably have tried to avoid an unpleasant confrontation. But I vaguely remember being a "testosterone"-y 17-yearold and I am pretty sure my reaction would have been very similar to Martin's. BTW, since being 17, I earned a college degree and a masters degree, so I get your point. As the adult, with the concealed weapon, who had put the "dominoes" in play, Zimmerman needs to be held to a higher standard regarding his judgement even if he did have certain "rights".

Kat-1745504

Oh, right Jim (out-of-touch with) Reality.

Are at recess in 2nd grade?

And how do you think the cops respond to a 17-year-old black kid who calls them?

I didn't realize that 9-1-1 had a race and age detector on their end of the phone. (sarcasm) If they did then why do they always ask who is calling? I would HOPE that if a 17 year old or any age person called 9-1-1 about a creepy person following them that police would respond immediately. At the very least dispatch would have connected the two calls, it was a slow night if they took Georges non emergency call, and let them both know the other was probably on the up and up.

@ Jim and Trust - the two of you have very vivid imaginations and just don't want to believe that Zimmerman is solely responsible for Martin's death. Throwing a first punch Jim, DOES NOT in any way make you liable to be shot and killed. The gun escalated a fight into a murder. And it was so avoidable! Zimmerman behaved like an animal. And he should be locked up like one.

Realistic woman

Throwing a first punch

so YOU would just lay on the ground and let someone beat on you? Hands are a deadly weapon... Look up Joey Scott beating a 65 year old bus driver into a coma and death. And in the eyes of the LEGAL system who throws the first punch IS responsible for starting the fight. At best it was mutual combat. At that point BOTH were entitled to defend themselves. When either met the requirements of REASONABLE BELIEF of imminent serious bodily injury, getting your ass beat and your face bloodied seems to qualify, then SYG would kick in. Go read FL Statute 776. While it is tragic and sad that Trayvon died and it is emotional... the LAW is what the courts are supposed to base their decisions on not public opinion.

Zimmerman behaved like an animal.

there are no rules in a street fight other than survival of the fittest. Fighting is animalistic. Fittest means the one who survives and not necessarily the strongest. The brute was the winner until the weaker one got smart and used a club.

@ Realistic. Sadly throwing a punch first does make you liable to be shot and killed. Trust is right. if someone is one top of you throwing punches there is no reason not to believe he could have pulled a shank and put it in your neck. If he did, zimmerman would just be another statistic no one would blog about. it is sad- TM probably was a good kid. Bad things happen and sometimes you just cant blame someone.

@ trust, no I would not let someone beat on me. I also would not follow and confront a person after I call the police because I think that he is suspicious and up to something. I would not have behaved like Zimmerman, therefore a young man would not be dead.

@Jim - I've ignored you because I just can't read your ignorant posts.

If a strange, scary looking guy came into your neighborhood wouldn't you take notice and be concerned? Of course you would. Just go a head and admit it.

Realistic woman

@ trust, no I would not let someone beat on me. I also would not follow and confront a person after I call the police because I think that he is suspicious and up to something. I would not have behaved like Zimmerman, therefore a young man would not be dead.

I agree with your first sentence.. the second would depend on the unique situation of the moment. There is "following" as in pursuit that everyone attributes to George and then there is following at a distance to just keep an eye on things.

Had you found yourself in Georges shoes, on the ground with a broken nose and a gun at hand you may have had to choose him or you. Hopefully neither of us will ever be in that situation. I know my response if I do find myself there though. I'll take my chances with 12 (jurors) rather than 6 (pallbearers).

This is a sticking point that also needs addressing. It has been said enough times that everyone states it as fact. Again he was not told by police to stop following him. At any time. The recording has the 911 operator saying the exact words of somthing of "Sir we dont need you to do that" But there was never an explicit stop following him said. that is a much bigger deal then people realize. And people need to stop saying something that was never said as fact. Its been said so many times that 95% of people believe it that way. listen to the exact things said and it makes a big difference.

As far as shooting him in the leg and not heart. If you shoot you shoot to kill. Your trained to shoot twice. And with the gun he was using that little pocket Kel Tec at night in a fight in a rush shot. he did not aim for the heart. he prob just shot. Its not accurate and your not aiming at a target in the dark thinking let me get him in the leg. That gun is not accurate. This isnt the movies where everyone can shoot someone from a few feet away and have a kill shoit. Go to a shooting range and try and shoot the heart from a few feet away. tats in a controlled lit settings. not as easy as you think.

Cat I suggest you look up the definitions on description of the range of shots. They are on the web complete with photos of what a close range shot looks like. They are very graphic. The description is up to a few feet away. People are dropping the lower number and only touting the few feet away part.

It really doesnt matter since he claimed to be acting in his capacity of Neighborhood Watch captan. Neighborhood Watch's policy states not to confront. He was in violation of that, he refused the advice of the 911 operator, he could have walked away at any point, but he chose to confront. You don't get to pick a fight with someone and then shoot them because you're getting your ass kicked. The law doesn't work that way. Martin had every bit the right to defend himself against an unidentified stalker. If the roles had been reversed and Martin had shot Zimmerman, then the law would have exonerated Martin. Zimmerman was never in the right here once he elected to keep pursuing after he notified the authorities. His goal was to keep the black guy in the hoody from getting away and he got a good old fashion ass whipping instead then tried to shield himself with a bad law. Case not so closed twisted, we'll see what happens.

Neighborhood watch policy is not the law. What is confusing about that? And again. How can you say he decided to confront unless you were there. Thats the debatablle part that I am not willing to make a judgement on without proof he did. This article says he tried to avoid him twice. In your mind its impossible Trayvon came to him. Think about it. You have a gun but you go confront someone in a fist fight? You get that close? Or is it possible Trayvon brought the fight to him first? Like i said. Tried and judged in the media and public before any trial