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Subscribe to RSSFighting continued for a fifth day near key government installations, indicating that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's control is faltering. As the opposition advances, Russia and China still refuse to support a resolution calling for tougher sanctions. NBC's Ayman Mohyeldin reports.
If Bashar Assad is dislodged from power in Syria, as seems increasingly likely, Russia stands to be the biggest loser in both international prestige and lost arms sales, U.S. analysts tell NBC News.
“They are scrambling to hold on to the few allies they have,” Charles Kupchan, a senior fellow with the Council on Foreign Relations and the author of “No Man’s World,” a book about a world order unanchored by superpowers, said of the Russians. “They’re in an extremely awkward position -- supporting a regime that is considered beyond the pale by most of the world -- and as a consequence are selling arms and vetoing resolutions that are needed steps to stop the killing.”
On Thursday, Russia and China vetoed a U.N. Security Council resolution threatening sanctions against the Assad regime. U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Susan Rice called the actions, “dangerous and deplorable,” and argued on the “Andrea Mitchell Report” on MSNBC that it runs against their “long-term interests.”
Diplomats across the globe voiced their frustrations at the United Nations this morning over the decision by Russia and China to veto a resolution that would have imposed new sanctions on Syria. Amb. Susan Rice discusses.
Indeed, those who have meet with members of the Syrian rebel army say no nation, not even Iran, Assad’s closest ally in the region, is as reviled as Russia, which has supplied the regime with many of the armaments used to attack the rebels and shell villages.
Kupchan says that Russia doesn’t seem to care because it’s dealing with what it considers larger issues of geopolitics. “What’s driving Russia’s position is Moscow’s deep discomfort at what happened in Libya and (its determination) that it not again sanction civilian protection as pretext for regime change,” he said.
Former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, who according to diplomatic officials felt personally betrayed by U.S. President Barack Obama after agreeing to U.N. resolutions permitting the use of force to protect Libyan civilians, only to see it used to overthrow their long-time ally, Moammar Gadhafi.
“Their second motivation, more explicit , is to salvage influence. To put it mildly, their influence has waned in the Middle East and Central Asia ," added Kupchan. “So, they’re scrambling to hold on to the few allies they have.”
Related stories
Russia, China veto UN Syria sanctions; US calls vote regrettable
Assad reportedly directs troops from tribal heartland as rebels flood capital
William Hartung, an arms analyst for the Center for International Policy, says there may be another, more commercial reason for Russia’s support: Syria is one of Moscow’s biggest arms customers in the Middle East, and while purchases by other regional buyers have declined , Damascus’ appetite for first Soviet and then Russian weaponry has never wavered.
“Syria is among a handful of big buyers left for Russia,” said Hartung, who notes that former customers like Saddam Hussein and Gadhafi have left the world stage. The U.S. and Europe also are making inroads with Russia’s biggest client, India, while China is manufacturing more of its own armaments. “How do you replace China, India, Iraq, Libya and now Syria?” Hartung asks.
In fact, Syrian arms purchases from Russia have dramatically increased over the past several years, according to documentation from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) and interviews with arms experts.
Ho / AFP - Getty Images
A July 2012 handout picture released by the official Syrian Arab News Agency (SANA) , shows Syrian military attack helicopters firing missiles during army maneuvers at an undisclosed location in Syria.
“Most of Russian exports to Syria over the 2001-2011 period were in the past three years,” said Hartung. “The data shows $187 million (in sales) in 2009; $294 million in 2010; and $246 million in 2011.” Over the past decade, Russia transferred weapons worth $857 million to Syria, about 70 percent of the total weapons Syria received in that period. Other suppliers were Belarus ($196 million), Iran ($109 million), and North Korea ($40 million).
Major weapons sent by Russia to Assad’s government, according to SIPRI, included 2,000 anti-tank missiles, including 200 Igla-SA-18 "Grouse" models, which have been fired from vehicles, helicopters and ships against rebel fighters; 868 surface-to-air missiles; 24 MiG fighter planes with 300 air-to-air missiles; 36 trainer/combat aircraft; as well as helicopters and artillery. Those numbers do not count the small arms the Syrian military and security forces receive from Russia.
Politically, it’s a symbiotic relationship, Hartung said of the Syrian purchases. “Some of this is about cementing relationships, hoping the Russians will bail them out in a pinch.”
There have been conflicting reports on Russia’s willingness to continue sales. In early July, the deputy director of a body that supervises the country's arms trade was quoted as saying, Russia would suspend arms sales to Syria.
“While the situation in Syria is unstable, there will be no new deliveries of arms there," Vyacheslav Dzirkaln told journalists at the Farnborough Airshow in Britain, Russia's Interfax news agency reported. But no one else in the Russian government would confirm the deputy minister’s comments, leaving open the possibility that Russia will continue to resupply Assad’s military and security forces.
'Strengthening Putin's hand'
Kupchan said continuing the arms sales might benefit Russian President Vladimir Putin.
“I do think that in the big scheme of things, the sale of arms is a drop in the bucket financially,” he said. “It matters more in domestic politics, within the decision-making process. Arms merchants and generals are weighing in. It’s not a decisive role but it helps Putin to have them in his camp.
“It’s all about strengthening Putin's hand by standing up to the West.”
But Hartung said that no matter what the end game in Syria, Russia will come out a loser. Either the client state will be in the hands of the anti-Russian rebels or remain in chaos for months, or even years.
Still, Kupchan said, Russia may still play a positive role in ushering in the post-Assad era.
“It’s conceivable the Russians play a role in the end game,” he said. “They cannot be exceedingly pleased the way this is gone. I can see the Russians facilitating Assad’s departure. I just don’t see him winding up in a dacha or gated community outside Moscow. Probably, more like somewhere in the Arab world or Africa.”
Wherever he goes, Russia’s influence in Syria is likely to go with him.
Robert Windrem is a senior investigative producer for NBC News.
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While it might be a blow to Russia in the short term we need to be concerned with what will replace the vacuum left in the wake of the Assad departure.
GregE
Great thought !!!
Most of us have been mostly looking at the here and now . If the U.S. gets to deeply involved than the Syrians will turn against us . But there are factions in Syria where just the opposite is true . The situation there is about as clear as mud .
You are correct. It is tenuous to wish overthrow- even though Assad is evil as clearly shown by his murdering his own people. So the idea that "anything is better than...." isn't always the case. Just look at our numerous recent examples: Egypt- Much better off without Mubarak, except for the calls to destroy the pyramids, opress women, killing the christians, fortifying Gaza and calling for the end of Israel, etc. Libya- Much better off without Gadhaffi, except for anti-western sentiment, anti-women policies, looting of the country's treasures, black market trading of weapons, rampant murdering of foes with little law, etc. Afghanistan- Well, that is a bit different. We took out the Talliban and put in our own image of a government- only to find that it isn't holding up, they are exploiting us for money and demonizing us constantly for being evil, more reports of women being pushed back into sub-human status, and reports are that the Talliban is starting to take over again. So all we need is to give another country over to the Muslim Brotherhood and just watch what happens. Hint- not for the better.
On the Russia point- Syria is valuable for oil and trade as well as a strategic foothold in the region. Russia won't act against Syria nor Iran. Their economy is based on $76/barrel oil, so they need it above that and keeping the Middle East in check is in their best interests. War=money
Lastly, this again shows just how impetant the UN is. They can't agree on anything, nor act on anything.
If Assad remains in Power and returns the country to relative calm... Russia, China, and Iran will be the big winners
If Assad is deposed or killed...The whole World will be the big losers, because what replaces him will likely be much worse
Your comment about the UN is wrong. As founders of the UN, we wanted a provision that would cover our six, IF we were ganged up on, by the rest of the world. We obtained that through permanent membership in the Security Council with one vote veto power. Unlike most, but not all, US Legislative bodies, there is no mechanism, like a 'Super Majority,' to override a veto. There should be. There is another avenue open, perhaps. That would have individual States, within other organizations, that we and most other States belong to, begin sanctions against the Russian Confederation and PRC as well as Syria. The RC already has limited product value within, all but rogue States anyway. Placing sanctions on PRC goods will hurt more of us, initially, but over the long run will make this a healthier world.
It's very clear. China and Russia don't wanna work with us? Fine, lets send all the products they make back to them. Go sell your crap to Syria and Iran.
You have to remember that the power of the people will be stronger and won't take crap that easy anymore.
Their damned if they do, and damned if they don't....but if it screws up russia or china, then hopefully they do get rid of assad....whatever replaces him could be worse, but that region will never be stable....those countries and meglomaniacs who rule there come and go....
george pauljohn,
Sadly, that is not going to happen where China is concerned. We'd have to empty our stores of almost everything. Some things just aren't available from anywhere else anymore. Corporations will continue to base manufacturing operations in China for as long as doing so maximizes profits. Our only option is to leave it on the shelf if it says "Made in China" on it. We'd have to do without until alternatives appear on the shelves and we Americans are all about bargains and instant gratification. That will be our downfall.
Don't blame China imports on "greedy corporations". They are merely giving us consumers what we want - lots of cheap stuff. There is no doubt that if we truly wanted "made in America" and were willing to pay for it, the corporations would provide it.
Right you are! Once again the U.S. helps to topple a foreign despot and then will fail to keep Islamic extremists from taking over.
Let see, if Assad fails, that will make Syria, Egypt, Yemen, Afganistan, Libya, Lebanon, Somalia, Iran, the Sudan, and much of Iraq as countries in the Middle East that are, or in the process, of morphing into fundamentalist rule. NOW, who do the fundamentalists hate more, the Russians and Chinese or the USA and Israel, and WHERE do you think they are going to buy their weaponry? What moronic idiocy to conclude that Russia will suffer; especially under leaders in the USA and NATO that have done more to increase the prestige of Putin and a return to totalitarian government in Eastern Europe than ANY other leader in the "free world". Coming soon - home grown suicide bombers with Drivers Licenses from Michigan in your community!!! Enough said.
"Russia transferred weapons worth $857 million to Syria, about 70 percent of the total weapons Syria received in that period."
These are peanuts in arms trade.
Yes, Russia and China will be hurt in short term.
It will be bad for the US, Israel in the long term. It will be another Egypt on the march to Salaffi and MB rules and Saudi Arabia. Public will hate the US, Israel most.
It will be Sunni Saudis and their al-Qaida, Salaffi, MB gains.
Just examine who gained from Iraqi wars and by the removal of Saddam.
Assad must have a pretty strong neck to hold up that big, egoistic head.
The article completely failed to mention that while the United States has over 2,000 overseas military bases, Russia has exactly ONE --- at Allepo, Syria. This naval base is incredibly important to the Russians. The old Soviet Black Sea Fleet has become the Joint Russian Ukrainan Fleet under Russian Flag. The problem with this major warm-water fleet is that Yurkey completely controls the Bosphorus and Dardenelles which is the Black Sea's only outlet into the Mediterranean. In the event of hostilities, this would effectively allow NATO to bottle up the Black Sea Fleet and render it impotent, destroying it pretty much at will. It also leaves Russia sweating another Ukranian "uprising" that could lose them the fleet altogether. And it exposes Russia to the whims of the Muslim world since Turkey would not allow Russia to conduct operations against Muslim countries from the Black Sea.
Allepo, Syria is an ideal refit and refuel base for the Russian Fleet. It is outside of the danger of sabotage from disaffected Ukranians and Chetznians and is readily accessible to the Suez Canal. A quick dash from Allepo could have ships in the Persian Gulf area before US forces could fully react.
And then there is the personal loss of prestige that Putin would suffer from the loss. Allepo is his "baby" abd Assad is his "pet dictator." Right now Putin is failing in his public persona and is resorting to massive tightening down on dissidents. Any loss to his prestige, any sign that he is vulnerable, would embolden those who oppose him.
@JoeNY,
The conflict in Syria actually benefits Russia by keeping European oil prices high. If Syria were to become calm again, their small amount of oil would make no difference in international markets, but any calmness in the markets would cause the price of oil to fall. This would hurt Russia. So your statement about Russia and oil is wrong. There is simply too little oil at stake for it to be true and oil prices go up on unrest, not down.
@Justin.Case
You are right about that.
Imagine if you went to WalMart and there were an item in 2 bins. The first one says Made in China and cost $1.30. The second bin has the identical item and says Proudly made in the USA and cost $1.65.
Which will we buy?
Never worry about having to make that decision because ChinaMart is only going to display their most profitable item.
3 things america needs:
learn to go without
learn to think
learn to be patient
The fact that walmart exists and is so successful should be enough to show americans are mostly cry babies
And China is a completely different situation altogether. With China it boils down to one single fact --- China has only negligable quantitites of oil and their coal is running out and becoming more and more expensive to mine. The Chinese economy has one and one only mandate --- grow year after year. While this country has to create a net 150,000 jobs each month to stay even, China has to create around 1,000,000. Without oil and refinery product imports, China's economy would die in a few weeks. This has resulted in a feeling among all Chinese leaders that they simply cannot afford to make any enemies in the Middle East or in Africa and that they even have to pander to tinhorn dictators like Chavez. The Chinese know that there will always be problems with foreign oil supplies, especially with India and Bangladesh and Pakistan and Brazil becoming emerging major users with the same problem and in direct competition with China. As a footnote, this is also why China is spending so many billions on hydroelectric, nuclear, and was the official reason given for the huge and illegal subsidies that literally destroyed the fifth generation solar energy industry in this country by making 3rd generation panels so cheap that the newer ones could not compete.
Despite the horrid barbarism going on in Syria, I have been of the opinion the US should stay out of it. We're involved in too many conflicts. However, if the fall of Assad will also bring down Rootin' Tootin' Putin, I may rethink my opinion. I don't know why China is against the sanctions, but I guess they are aligned with Russia. Sanctions are ineffective anyway. Just look at Iran and Korea.
Here is what has bothered me for some time. I have always felt that Russia and China are the enemy of the US. It is hard to know how the backroom negotiations are conducted and why both these countries feel it is NEVER in their best interest to side with the US. I felt that Obama gave in to Russia early on figuring he would create a friendship with Russia which is NOT POSSIBLE AND NAIVE. This doesn't mean I want the US to label Russia an enemy, but to stop trying to barter with them and China as if they are going to change. They are not going to change. No matter what Syria does they will oppose any UN effort so the UN is only symbolic.
What worries me a lot is that Obama is still trying to work a deal with Russia as evidenced by that remark a few months ago between them when Obama promised something if he should get re-elected. That exchange was very telling that this administration doesn't play their cards well at all.
Recently Hillary was pelted with tomatoes and called names when she was in Egypt. So the US is hated MORE in that part of the world even though Obama reached out to help or at least give verbal support. I think many countries only know hardball and only respect hardball. This administration keeps thinking we can all be friends. Not so. It is dangerous to assume so.
The US spends somewhere between 4.5% and 5% of GDP on the military. Enough already. We spend more money on the military than everyone else put together. Syria is not our problem. If the people of Syria want Assad out let them put him out. If they want a Islamic government let them determine that. We have the right to have the government we want and so do they. Plenty here in America want and say we have a government based on Christian principles so why can't they have one based on their dominant religion. Israel can have one built on Judaism so whats wrong with them having a government based on their having a choice. Canada spends under 2% GDP on it's military and has less than 2K troops posted outside their country. Are they any less safe than we are? NO. They see no reason to try to control the uncontrollable. Russiia and China have not changed. They still want to oppose the US any way they can. Yet neither one has much of any troops posted around the world. We need to stop being the bully trying to control the playground.
Bible Prophecy presentation on You Tube....
Russia and the Gathering of the nations to Armageddon.
Just a side note about Armageddon people tend to get all excited when they hear this word as if it needs to be emphasised with a LOUD voice, or the making of a great Movie title. Its just a word to describe the location "the Valley of Megiddon" as it is called in Zech 12:11
Today it is just known as Megiddo,Israel. goto Google maps Megiddo, Israel and you will see the where Armageddon will take place.
And Yes Russia(putin) has alot to loose when Damascus becomes a ruinous Heap. Syria has become an Embarassment for Russia.
Dan 11:40
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south(US and its Allies/U.N.) push at him(russia): and the king of the north(Russia/Putin) shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Which ever way it goes, they will hate the united states of america more than they hate russia, mark my words.
Hopfully the US can back down on this issue. This whole thing really is not a world problem.
This is going to piss off a lot of people but for a long time now I have been saying let them fight their Civil War. Yes if any of haven't just read past me I have been siding with Russia a long time on the issue. A lot of you were saying how Assad was backed by the US and now your singing a different tune? The helo everyone is yaking about are Russian made, if and when the Rebel win they will want to use these helos and will probably carry on contracts with the Russians. The Chinese are hoping they won't have to rebuild the Oil infrstructure again but will be these to help for low cost oil again. The US is loosing their puppet, that is only good so long as he lives. Syria can build an ATBM but only seams to have Computer Operated Artillery for Air Defence, WWII Tech. Where are the Russian or Chinese Anti-Aircraft Rockets? Nuff said, let them finish their business.
Chris- That's what I was trying to say. Russia gains by keeping the region in stress, just as you correctly noted. They need $76+ oil, so turmoil serves them.
Article title correction follows: "... when Assad falls..." end message. (You can bet on it, think Saudis vs. Iran.)
MSNBC, New York.
Exactly Greg, once the dust settles it's only a matter of time before someone more menacing pops up.
What really gets me is the insensitivity of Russia, and China, for that matter in all of this. They see the updates and they know for certain that people are being slaughtered in all of this; yet they continue to fund and support the effort. I understand that people may not want us over in any fights or wars, but it's another thing to directly fund an atrocity of people being slaughtered as such in this country. I can't see how we can be trading partners or affiliates with either Russia or China when both countries go out of their way to pull crap like this.
Both countries have been infamous for funding corrouption, supplying arms to terrorist states and so forth. I fail to see how the leaders of those countries can operate under a clear consience. It makes me sick.
JR
Russia and China are doing the very same things in Syria that we did ( in some cases still do ) in South America. Does the term Banana Republic ring a bell ???? We are still involved up to our eye balls in drug wars down there . We also had the Iran / Contra mess under pres. R.R. The list goes on. We are no better than they are.
bob
I see Iran as the big winner here not the US or Russia and we need to take a look at Iraq, Afghanistan and possibly Egypt as the harbinger of things to come. Iran is the biggest worry in my estimation because it is a theocracy that sees its religious convictions as absolute.
Any government that has its religion as their imperative is disconcerting to anyone that believes in human rights and self-determination.
Not Libya but Iraq and Iraqis!
Just to remark on what the US has historically done. In South America and Central America, for instance, we helped into power and then propped up autocratic regimes that either silenced dissension through disappearances (ie killings) or straight up committed genocide, all because we irrationally feared the spread of socialism. Our government supports other governments not based on those other governments "goodness" but instead based on what they offer the US government. Perhaps we are getting better in this regard, but historically the US has not always taken the moral choice.
Guest, I agree, we have not always been angels, but I think we have gotten better (with the exception of Iraq, but Bush was correct on Afghanistan, they were harboring Al Quaida, we could not allow that to continue after 9/11).
JR, when have either Russia or China been "sensitive" to human suffering? No country is without its moments of shame in history, but these two have been especially egregious in terms of persecuting people, especially their own, so why would you expect them to care about Syrian civilians?
You are looking in one direction. Both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, the biggest killers of the history, have been kept in map by the US, British and allies.
This propaganda is similar to blowing trumpets that Russia was supporting Saddam and it will get hurt most from roof tops before each Iraqi wars.
Despite at least a million of Iraqis being killed, has the situation improved?
What did Russia lose? It was the US and NATO forces who lost heavily. We got heavy debts and Europe PIIGS.
Due to Saudis and oil companies high oil price manipulations, they benefitted.
In Syria also it will be Sunni Saudis and their Islamic religious Nazi al-Qaida, MB, Salaffi and Wahhabis rise!
US will be more hated by these groups. Russia and China will be off the hate/attention list!
Is everyone forgetting the fact that we are
enslaved to “communist” China? We owe
them 4 trillion dollars plus interest! I
lost $4 million dollars and went bankrupt almost overnight when my banker
increased the interest rate and then called the loan due!
We have to buy their China/Walmart Junk ! Container ships from China go
by my Island every 30 minutes, 24 hrs.a day
and leave with nothing !! Also don’t
forget almost 1in 4 people in the world today are Chinese. Our schools need to start requiring students
to learn Chinese!
a lot of grain in those containers going back to China!!
Whatever Vladimir Putin has done on the international stage, for almost fifteen years, has been for domestic consumption - not the world at large. He is concerned about peoples's attitudes and his standing at home. His opposition to the western world is an indication of his "toughness" and plays well to a failed, resentful society with a pronounced inferiority complex.
Don't be so smug. Under Putin Russia has reduced it's public debt over the years to under 10%. Compare that to the US where the debt has climbed to over 100% and there is no end it sight. At this rate the US hegemony will ultimately fail and countries like China and Russia may step in to fill the gap.
Wall street has mostly to blame on the debt in this country. And they still do business as usual
It appears Syria's problems are being compounded by world powers that are only interested in financial gains.
Wall street doesn't propose the budget and wall street doesn't vote on it. That would be the president and congress and who elects them? We do. The public is to blame because they can't bring themselves to vote for anyone but a Republicrat.
well I guess we can replace Assad with a radical theocracy.... Remember the popular "uprising" in Iran to dump the shah... how's that work out for us?
What goes around comes around!!! this is what you get when a peanut farmer becomes POTUS.
First we bertayed our best friends ( Iranian people who are the most pro American and one of the highly educated,SECULAR nations of the world) by helping SHAH making a mockery of Iranian DEMOCRACY which was established in 1907.then we betrayed SHAH to Islamic thugs.it costed USA Trillions of $ and many thousands of lives ( mostly our brave and beloved American soldjers) needlessly.
33 years later USA is still paying for what Eisenhover and PEANUT FARMER did to Iranians and SHAH.
Worked out pretty poorly, as did our sheltering the Shah (who murdered and tortured Iranians), as did our Operation Ajax about 25 years before that where our CIA overthrew democratically-elected Mossadeq in favor of the Shah. One of the reasons the American embassy got taken over was because the Iranians understood that was where the CIA coup was planned and staged from. (Operation Ajax, which was encouraged by the Anglo-Iranian oil company, now known as BP)
Evil begets evil-something few "leaders" seem to understand. Its not that the "means don't justify the end", its that few people have the character or ethics to ensure that the means doesn't corrupt the end or that the means doesn't become the end.
Didn't Regan go to bed with Iran?? He picked a real winner.
@Jim Reality,
It's waaaaay more complicated than that. There is only one Shiite Muslim country in the world --- Iran. There is one majority Shiite country --- Iraq. The remaining Shiite country is Syria which is predominantly Sunni but is rulled by Alawites. Alawites are a Shiite sect that is a sort of confusion of Islam and Christianity. The Alawites, for example, celebrate Christmas and Easter and venerate Christ as the major non Arabic prophet. Iran helps the Assad government, because it doesn't want to lose that key ally. Right now Iranian ships can safely use the port at Allepo and count on the Russians presence to keep the Israelis at bay.
But if Assad falls, Russia will lose its only overseas port and its only way of relieving the bottling up of the Black Sea Fleet. Iran loses the only country that allies itself with them (Iraq is slowly drifting towards Iran, but it will be a slow process because of the distrust cansed by the Iran-Iraq War.) Iran will also lose its only "friendly" port in the Med.
The Syrian people are, for the most part, very much like the Turks --- secular Sunnis. It would be very unlikely that they would seat a radical Islamic government. They are a bit too cosmopolitan for that. What will happen is that the Syrian rebels, when they are victorious, will most likely slaughter the Alawite minority. This is what happened after the invasion of Iraq. The Shiite majority took out decades of hatred and repression against the previously ruling Sunni minority.
The US and the British put the Shah in power, replacing a freely and democratically elected leadership with a hereditary despot. The US and Isreal trained the Shah's brutal SAVAK and the Mossad still controls the remnants of the SAVAK to this day. It was indeed a popular uprising that kicked out the Shah. And the Islamic government that replaced him had tremendous popular support and still does.
Agreed. From what i have read most of the borders in the Middle East were drawn and organized by the old British Empire for consistency's sake. In fact most of the colonial world was done so in an effort to put down the negotiating redtape of tribalism and allow for greater access to economic resources in old colonial trade times. Unfortunately, tribalism is still a huge unifying factor for populations who have had to survive and was the only consistent way of life they knew in a changing environment. Face it, we are just as tribal in our instincts, but have so much communication and trade thrown at us, we backburner it from time to time. Nationalism can be like that too, and I'm not saying that is a bad thing.
I do wonder about uprisings and the return to tribalism and some,(er,most?) of it is horrible in consequence. But this is probably the one thing in any human psyche that gives backup to self-determination and dignity. It looks like the Arab Spring is going through this and the South American backlash of communism did the same in the 70's. However, if the so-called freedom fighter or reblel is nothing but a mocked-up extremist intent on affecting hard-line rule because of religion or theory, then it is a perpetuation of simple oppression. Do you think we as a species will ever get this right?
Don't answer that question.
The humanitarian argument is a smokescreen. The truth is the US is actively intent on overthrowing Assad for precisely the reasons Russia would prefer to preserve him. No one mentions the Syrian people themselves many of whom prefer Assad to any available current alternative.
Russia does not need to keep their economy afloat via arms sales, but we need Russia's oil. We do not need mullahs for "friends" but we need Russia's support all around the world. They look like us, dress like us, have progressed beyond the dreary astrolabe as far as we have re science and rocketry, and even do a better job of keeping religion out of politics than we do. Get real, Obama and Susan Rice!
I'm wondering where Hezbollah is with all of this, and where they will be if / when Assad's regime falls? If a pro-Saudi / Sunni government is installed, Iranian-backed Hezbollah will, no doubt, open another fighting front within Syria, and spilling over into Lebanon.
The US will absolutely need to stay out of this fight, lest we get embroiled into a protracted civil war, with a large Hezbollah contingent right here in the our homeland. Real bad news, like al Qaida on steroids!
Good. The blood of Syrian is on Russian and Chinese hands for vetoing 3 UN resolutions.
Perhaps Russia will adopt Iran and arm them with advanced air defense missiles, if they lose out in Syria. That would surely upset US and Israeli plans to attack Iran. Russia has the ability to increase Iran's offensive capabilities and really tick off the neocons.
I don't think we really want to mess with Russia.
Duhhh?
They either already have some agents-of-influence salted away in the new crowd to-be and dont care; dont want to let their bigger buddies, the Iranians, down;.....or are just being dumb Russians....
Anyway, it is too late for them to change horses. Do do so would be doubly damning, although one can only imagine whom they may be trying to impress with their "steadfastness".
The next "turd" to go down the toilet of world notoriety will be Iran.....and then,.....Oh my gosh!....could it be Putin's own "house of cards"?
Evil is what evil does.....
God works in strange ways....
Tunisia was just the start....
Hang on!
It's good that Russia will be the big loser. Putnin is a murderer anyway.
why are we even listening to anything the third rate power Russia has to say. Kick them off the security council and replace them with Brazil or someone else with more economic power.
And just how do you kick them off? With a security council resolution? LOL!
Russia and China are the unattractive creeps of international relations.
Bashar Assad is merely a garden variety unattractive creep.
Oh...someone commented above about needing Russia's "support".....that may be true in some respects....but we don't need Putin's...
He's just too mean and evil. Look what he's done to his own people.
Russia need's "Russia's" support....and they're certainly not getting it from this latest in a succession of Russian megalomaniac monsters.
God have mercy on the suffering Russian people!
The one outstanding thing about Russia and China is that they couldn't care less what the rest of the world thinks. If they think something is right they go ahead and do it, unlike the U.S. who want's to be loved all over the world. For all the things the U.S. has done for these Foreign countries we are still hated.
Sad but true! Russia and China have one thought in mind...........to rule the world...........and they will.
Next time you fill up your car Don't forget to buy Lukoil and support the Russians Government.
Russia and China should send in peace keepers I am sure that the UN would allow them to quell the Situation. I am also sure that Bashar Assad would agree to this. China and Russia are equal partners in this world and should have the chance to bring the Situation under control. Iran also could broker the situation with all three they should be able to save many lives.
We can't save their prestige, but we could recommend that they send their guns to the MEXICO CARTELS so they won't be such big losers!
When is all this CAPITALISTIC GREED GOING TO STOP! OR IS IT?
99% American People, vote 100% STRAIGHT DEMOCRATIC, the lives you save WILL be YOURS & your CHILDREN! Let's rid our selves of ALL THIS CORRUPT CAPITALISTIC GREED once & FOREVER! Let's get our American way of life back!
Capitalist "greed" as you call it is the motivation for individuals to improve themselves and not live off handouts. People are now able to raise themselves out of the rigid class structures from the past that kept generations at the status quo with no hope for advancement. Here in the US, class structures of the past have been shattered and people can advance as far as they can. It takes effort to do this and people who are not willing or incapable call it "greed".
I.E. Bank Bailouts
Yet, our current economic status, and the resulting realignment of the bank lending posture, has made it nearly impossible for the "average Amercan" to lend capital for business start-ups, education, etc. All indicators point to a systematic dismantling of the middle class.
Historically, the rampant speculating of the banking industry was key to the current global economic meltdown. Yes, it was GREED that fueled this process, and anyone denying this is either a fool, or part of the original problem.
AND, class structures shattered? Really? Only in a system that honors legacy over logic would a rich kid with an average academic level be admitted into an Ivy League school. See: G W Bush. Wonder which middle class kid Yale turned away in favor of "one of their own" sons?
Slavery = Capitalism in its purest form: all profit, no overhead
"If" Assad fails??
Russia is already a big loser. They side with North Korea, China, Syria and Iran. They have terrible weather. They have horrible 'resort beaches'. Their economy sucks (just like ours). They have a really bed system of healthcare and their doctors are mostly underpaid quacks. They lost all their clout when the USSR went kaput. They already are big losers.
Mathuin...you took the words out of my mouth!
Syria,s failure isn't going to make Russia any more of a loser than it already is!
Just remember NOT TO BUY CHINA PRODUCTS. O yes That means WALMART that all they sale, maybe 2% American product.
You mean like the our Olympic uniforms made in China?
I already boycott Walmart for their treatment of female employees.
Never gonna happen.
The Russians and the Chinese will lose even more of what little credibility they have at the UN when Assad falls from power and he will fall and soon. And where will he run to? Russia of course. A country where the government is as oppressive and corrupt as the one in Syria. I hope they are taking notes in Iran? This tragedy in Syria has not gone unnoticed by the younger generation in Iran. They know well what the iron fist of a corrupt government feels like.
All of the talk about the Arab Spring is just talk. There is seldom any new democratic movements rather just a redux of old issues. Case in point, After Hafez Assad had been in power, the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood (Ikwan) almost
assassinated Assad on 6/26/1980. Many of the Ikwan were in the town of Hama, and
the government sent 500 Syrian troops to punish them. The Ikwan killed all of
them. All the mosques of Hama blared out that the guerilla war against Assad was
over, now was time to openly support the Ikwan and drive out the "infidels". The
streets of Hama were too narrow for tanks, so Assad’s brother ordered the
artillery flatten the town, and then sent in troops to kill everyone else.
Between 20,000 and 38,000 people were killed. This is the real reason for what is going on in Syria delayed revenge.
Russia nad China sitting in a tree...
As usual, the Russians are on the wrong side of right. After Assad falls, their one rotten ally will be the despicable Iran. If you had an assignment to formulate the worst-case scenario for a nation's foreign policy, all you would have to do is use Russia's for a perfect blueprint.