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Subscribe to RSSFirst of a series of articles, Who Can Vote: a News21 investigation of voting rights in America
By Natasha Khan and Corbin Carson, News21
A new nationwide analysis of 2,068 alleged election-fraud cases since 2000 shows that while fraud has occurred, the rate is infinitesimal, and in-person voter impersonation on Election Day, which prompted 37 state legislatures to enact or consider tough voter ID laws, is virtually non-existent.
In an exhaustive public records search, reporters from the investigative reporting projecdt News21 sent thousands of requests to elections officers in all 50 states, asking for every case of fraudulent activity including registration fraud, absentee ballot fraud, vote buying, false election counts, campaign fraud, casting an ineligible vote, voting twice, voter impersonation fraud and intimidation.
Click to search the national database of voter fraud cases compiled by News21.
Analysis of the resulting comprehensive News21 election fraud database turned up 10 cases of voter impersonation. With 146 million registered voters in the United States during that time, those 10 cases represent one out of about every 15 million prospective voters.
“Voter fraud at the polls is an insignificant aspect of American elections,” said elections expert David Schultz, professor of public policy at Hamline University School of Business in St. Paul, Minn.
“There is absolutely no evidence," Schultz said, that voter impersonation fraud "has affected the outcome of any election in the United States, at least any recent election in the United States."
The News21 analysis of its election fraud database shows:
- In-person voter-impersonation fraud is rare. The database shows 207 cases of other types of fraud for every case of voter impersonation. “The fraud that matters is the fraud that is organized. That's why voter impersonation is practically non-existent because it is difficult to do and it is difficult to pull people into conspiracies to do it,” said Lorraine Minnite, professor of public policy and administration at Rutgers University.
- There is more fraud in absentee ballots and voter registration than any other categories. The analysis shows 491 cases of absentee ballot fraud and 400 cases of registration fraud. A required photo ID at the polls would not have prevented these cases. “The one issue I think is potentially important, though more or less ignored, is the overuse of absentee balloting, which provides far more opportunity for fraud and intimidation than on-site voter fraud,” said Daniel Lowenstein, a UCLA School of Law professor.
- Of reported election-fraud allegations in the database whose resolution could be determined, 46 percent resulted in acquittals, dropped charges or decisions not to bring charges. Minnite says prosecutions are rare. “You have to be able to show that people knew what they were doing and they knew it was wrong and they did it anyway,” she said. “It may be in the end" that prosecutors "can't really show that the people who have cast technically illegal ballots did it on purpose.”
- Felons or noncitizens sometimes register to vote or cast votes because they are confused about their eligibility. The database shows 74 cases of felons voting and 56 cases of noncitizens voting.
- Voters make a lot of mistakes, from accidentally voting twice to voting in the wrong precinct.
- Election officials make a lot mistakes, from clerical errors — giving voters ballots when they’ve already voted — to election workers confused about voters’ eligibility requirements.
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Who can vote? A national News21 investigation of voting rights in America. |
“I don't think there is a mature democracy that has as bad of an elections system as we do,” said Richard Hasen, a professor of political science and election law expert at the University of California, Irvine. “We have thousands of electoral jurisdictions, we have non-professionals running our elections, we have partisans running our elections, we have lack of uniformity.”
Read more here about how the survey of states was conducted.
Voter-impersonation fraud has attracted intense attention in recent years as conservatives and Republicans argue that strict voter ID laws are needed to prevent widespread fraud.
The case has been made repeatedly by the Republican National Lawyers Association, one of whose missions is to advance “open, fair and honest elections.” It has compiled a list of 375 election fraud cases, based mostly onnews reports of alleged fraud.
News21 examined the RNLA cases in the database and found only 77 were alleged fraud by voters. Of those, News21 could verify convictions or guilty pleas in only 33 cases. The database shows no RNLA cases of voter-impersonation fraud.
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Civil-rights and voting-rights activists condemn the ID laws as a way of disenfranchising minorities, students, senior citizens and the disabled.
In a video that went viral in June, Republican Mike Turzai, Pennsylvania’s House majority leader, spoke approvingly at a Republican State Committee meeting of the state’s new voter ID law "which is going to allow Gov. Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania — done."
His spokesman said Turzai meant that Pennsylvania’s election would be fair and free of fraud because of the new ID law. Democrats, however, said Turzai meant the law, signed in March, would suppress Democratic votes.
According to Pennsylvania’s Department of State and the Department of Transportation, as many as 758,000 people, about 9 percent of the state’s 8.2 million registered voters currently don’t have the identification that now will be required at the polling place.
Even if 90 percent of those voters got the correct identification by Nov. 6, that still could leave 75,800 voters disenfranchised.
The U.S. Justice Department is investigating whether the ID law violates the 1965 federal Voting Rights Act by discriminating against minorities, according to a July 23 letter to Pennsylvania Secretary of State Carol Aichele.
A coalition of civil-rights groups led by the American Civil Liberties Union has sued Pennsylvania in state court, arguing the voter ID law would deprive citizens of their right to vote. The trial began July 25.
In a pretrial document released by the ACLU, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, represented by the state Attorney General’s Office, could not identify any cases of voter impersonation at the polls.
The state said it would offer no evidence that “in-person voter fraud has in fact occurred in Pennsylvania or elsewhere” or that “in-person voter fraud is likely to occur in November 2012 in the absence of a photo ID law.”
Pennsylvania officials, who responded to the News21 public record requests, also reported no cases of Election Day voter-impersonation fraud since 2000.
“This law is a solution solving a problem that does not exist,” Democratic state Sen. Vincent Hughes told an Aug. 1 teleconference hosted by New America Media, a group representing the ethnic media. Hughes called the law partisan and, echoing Turzai, said its purpose is “to elect Mitt Romney.”
News21 is a program of the Carnegie Corporation of New York and the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation that is helping to change the way journalism is taught in the U.S. and train a new generation of journalists capable of reshaping the news industry. It is headquartered at the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication at Arizona State University. Since 2006, nearly 500 top journalism students in the U.S. have participated in the landmark national initiative.
The News21 database shows one of the rare instances of voter-impersonation fraud occurred in Londonderry, N. H., in 2004 when 17-year-old Mark Lacasse used his father’s name to vote for George W. Bush in the Republican presidential primary. The case was dismissed after Lacasse performed community service.
The database shows the nine other voter impersonation cases were in Alabama, California, Colorado, Kansas and Texas. All were isolated and showed no coordinated efforts to change election results.
Republican-dominated legislatures — with the exception of Rhode Island where Democrats passed a photo ID law — have considered 62 ID bills since 2010.
Nine states — South Carolina, Texas, Wisconsin, Tennessee, Kansas, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Mississippi and Alabama — passed strict voter ID laws.
Only the Pennsylvania, Tennessee and Kansas measures are likely to be in effect in November. The Pennsylvania law has been challenged in state court.
Rhode Island’s more lenient law will take effect in 2014. Indiana and Georgia were the first states to pass strict voter-ID laws, enacted in 2007 and 2008, respectively. Few laws regulate absentee ballots, although the News21 analysis shows this is one of the most frequent instances of fraud.
“It makes much more sense if you are trying to steal an election by either manipulating results on the back end through election official misconduct or to use absentee ballots which are easier to control and to maintain,” said Hasen, the UC, Irvine, professor of political science.
The News21 analysis shows 185 election fraud cases linked to campaign officials or politicians involving absentee or mail-in ballots.
In 2003, the Indiana Supreme Court invalidated East Chicago Democratic Mayor Rob Pastrick’s primary victory because of massive fraud. Pastrick, an eight-term incumbent, lost in a 2004 repeat election.
Forty-six people, mainly city workers, were found guilty in a wide-ranging conspiracy to purchase votes through the use of absentee ballots.
John Fortier, a political scientist at the Bipartisan Policy Center, a Washington, D.C., think tank, said there are “more direct problems” with absentee ballots because the person casting the ballot can be pressured or coerced.
Keesha Gaskins, senior counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice at the New York University School of Law, a public policy group that opposed many of the voting-law changes nationally, recognizes that absentee-ballot fraud occurs more than other election fraud, but still doesn’t consider it a threat.
“There are more concerns in terms of absentee fraud but, again, it is easier to catch,” she said.
Minnite, the Rutgers University professor who researched election fraud from 2006-2010 for her book, “The Myth of Voter Fraud,” agrees with Gaskins.
"Corruption works when it’s organized. If we see more cases of absentee-ballot fraud than, say, voter-impersonation fraud, it still doesn't mean that voters individually are motivated to do it,” she explains. “It just means that absentee balloting might present some greater opportunities for people who are organizing conspiracies to corrupt elections."
The News21 analysis shows 34 states had at least one case of registration fraud — many were associated with third-party voter registration groups.
The most noteworthy involved the voter registration group, Association for Community Organization and Reform Now (ACORN).
The group, which endorsed Barack Obama in 2008, became the target of conservative activist James O’Keefe, who produced deceptively edited videos that suggested ACORN employees were encouraging criminal behavior.
Voter-ID supporters often cite ACORN as evidence that voter fraud is a problem. The scandal resulted in at least 22 convictions in seven states and the collapse of the organization in 2010 after Congress and private donors pulled their funding.
Critics of third-party voter-registration say that workers who gather signatures are typically paid for their efforts and that’s an incentive to
write in false names, breaking the law. Defenders of third-party registration say that establishing criteria for the number of signatures workers must gather in a day, for example, is good business practice. These so-called quotas, they say, are simply a way of establishing standards of performance and evaluating employees. Paying workers per signature, as opposed to per hour, is outlawed in several states.
Both sides of the debate agree voter-registration rolls are outdated and should be cleaned up. They disagree on whether problems with the rolls lead to fraudulent votes being cast.
“Mickey Mouse has been registered hundreds of times, but Mickey has never turned up on Election Day to vote,” Hasen said. The News21 database shows 393 cases involving ineligible voters, typically felons, noncitizens or people voting in the wrong jurisdictions. There were guilty verdicts in 159 cases.
Sometimes, felons and non-citizens were not aware that they didn’t have voting rights, as in the case of Derek Little in Wisconsin, as The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported. The database shows the case was dismissed because prosecutors learned that Little identified himself at the polls with his prison ID.
Double voting occurs in isolated instances and often involves absentee ballots. However, few cases in the database reveal any coordinated effort to change election results. Often, the double vote was a mistake.
Claudel Gilbert, who had changed his address in Ohio in 2007, received two registration cards in the mail and said he believed he had to vote in both places for his vote to count. In four other cases, people were accused of double voting for filling out their ballot and their spouse’s.
Some advocates of voter-ID laws say voter fraud is used to “steal” federal elections. But the only so-called theft case in the News21 database involved four Indiana Democratic party officials accused in 2008 of forging signatures on petitions to get Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton on the state primary ballot. No one was convicted.
Many experts agree the elections system is inefficient and that this leads to mistakes and clerical errors that are lumped under “voter fraud.”
The News21 database showed that election-fraud cases often were the result of mistakes by confused voters or elections officials.
For example, Leland Duane Lewis, an 89-year-old from Raleigh, N.C., in 2011, requested — and got — a second ballot after mistakenly turning in his first one and realizing it was only half-completed.
Tom Brett, an election worker from Georgia, was accused in 2009 of not being on duty during early and absentee voting.
Schultz, the Hamline University professor who has written extensively about election fraud, said voting rules could be clarified for voters and there should be better training for election officials.
“If somebody is ineligible to vote because they are a felon, for example, or an ex-felon, making that clear to them, in terms of they can't vote until such and such a time,” Schultz said. “And the same thing with election officials ... making it clear to them regarding what the rules are regarding who is eligible and who is not eligible.”
Many voter-ID supporters continue to argue that the measures are needed to prevent voter-impersonation fraud to ensure the integrity of elections, although fewer than five tenths of one percent of the total cases in the News21 analysis are voter impersonation.
Hans von Spakovsky of the Heritage Foundation, a conservative Washington, D.C.-based policy center, is a staunch supporter of voter-ID laws. He said “there’s no way to detect” voter-impersonation fraud unless states have voter-ID laws.
Bill Denny, a Mississippi Republican state representative elected in 1987, sponsored that state’s voter-ID bill — awaiting preclearance by the Justice Department — because he said voter impersonation is a problem even if there have been few prosecutions.
“Whether you have proof of it or not,” he added, “what in the heavens is wrong with showing an ID at polls?”
Minnite, the Rutgers professor, says she is worried that lawmakers could disenfranchise voters who don’t obtain the correct IDs and are prohibited from voting in November based on a problem that barely exists.
“Voter fraud is not a problem" so "the solution should not be to address voter fraud,” Minnite said.
She said it could be especially burdensome for poor people to obtain the correct documents to get an ID — even for a free ID that some states with new ID laws are providing.
Minnite asked whether voting rights for "thousands of people should be sacrificed ... where there is absolutely no basis" for voter ID "in the first place.”
Civil-rights groups compare the voter-ID laws to Jim Crow laws, poll taxes and literacy tests designed to keep blacks from voting in the past.
“It's simply a new big burden on the backs of people who just want to have their voices heard during elections,” said Eddie Hailes, managing director and general counsel of the Advancement Project, a civil-rights group challenging voter-ID laws in Texas, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.
The Justice Department denied the Texas voter-ID law — which U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder likened to a poll tax— on the ground that it would disproportionately affect minorities and the poor.
The state pre-emptively sued the Justice Department for the right to implement the law and arguments were heard by a three-judge panel in Washington, D.C., in July. A verdict is expected within the next month.
Not all supporters of the laws say voter-impersonation fraud is a major problem. Not all opponents say the laws will suppress millions of votes.
Trey Grayson, the former Republican Kentucky secretary of state who is director of the Institute of Politics at Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government, supports voter ID but also says election reform should “make it easier to vote and harder to cheat.”
He suggests voter-identification laws could be paired with Election Day registration. “People who don’t get registered 30 days out could still come in and register on the day of the election,” he said. “And a voter ID, that could give you the confidence that this person really is who she says she is and allow her to vote.”
Grayson criticizes many opponents of voter-identification laws, suggesting that their focus on voter suppression may have an adverse effect on turnout.
"One of the criticisms I would have of the attorney general," Eric Holder, "and others who have made this a big deal,” he said, “is, by raising the issue and the way they are raising it, rather than trying to go around and get people IDs, sort of raising the specter of all this, they may also be suppressing the vote with their reaction to it." Grayson said there is potential to have comprehensive election reform without partisan politics.
“You could take ideas from the left and the right,” he said. “You could have a better system.”
Alex Remington of News21 contributed to this article. Natasha Khan was an Ethics and Excellence in Journalism Foundation fellow this summer at News21.
Discuss this series of stories on the Facebook page for Open Channel, the NBC News investigative blog.
Leave a Comment:
Need? The need to reduce voter fraud is not the reason for these measures. The need to exclude competition from opponents of the incumbent Republicans is the only 'Need' relevant to these draconian acts of desperation. When politicians resort to such measures they have ceased to serve the public interest and are acting to preserve their own dogma while consciously aware that it is unpopular and self serving. Their dishonor and duplicity is shameful.
Yet in Chicago and other major Democratic cities it's not unusual to vote the dead - technically they are permanent residents. Even one fradulent vote is too much and you do remember the Florida presidential election. Now with Democratric voter registration drives registering peoples dogs maybe having an ID is a good idea. After all the Blacks manage to find plenty of ID when registering for Section 8 , food stamps, and other "free money" opportunities.
Joseph: Even if that were the case, the republicans aren't doing anything wrong by asking for voter ID. There is still plenty of time before November to get it. The fact that you keep using this as an excuse to not get ID shows that you are not as confident as you think that the President will win.
@ atelier
You say all that, but how many cases to justify all these measures?
What you said are true, but the amount of cases are so small that it is rarely even worth to mention the issue or make such a big deal out of it.
This is like rare illness, 10 out of hundred millions and we should have all policies to prevent it?
So.......Only Republicans benefit from honest and fair elections? The ability to vote is a right extended to legal residents (of age) of the United States who have not had that right revoked due to a serious crime. Would you allow non-residents to vote if it furthered your obviously narrow-minded political agenda? How about those terrorists who are currently within our borders planning attacks on your way of life (and possibly your life itself)? Would you give them a ride to the polls? You, sir, are a seriously flawed individual who dishonors and shames the freedom this country was founded on. Shame on you!
That's from comment #1.1.
And this is the kind of comment that suggests there's no small quantity of racism behind the GOP's obsession with voter ID.
If we can stop 2 or 3 people from voting fraudulently and also turn away a few thousand democratic voters at the polls on a technicality then it is a win/win solution.
"Even one fradulent vote is too much..." haha What complete BS. Why? What terrible harm befalls us if there is but one fraudulent vote? Please tell us how the sky will fall or the country will be destroyed, or even heterosexual marriages will somehow suffer.
The real issue is to weigh the cost of allowing a possible fraudulent vote, even if it is rare, compared with denying a legitimate voter. Any honest, fair person would realize the Republican efforts lead to denying way more legitimate voters than fraudulent ones. Joseph nailed this one completely!
I totally agree the only reason for the ID law is to try and disenfranchise those who for whatever reason cannot afford it. But there will be better to come if if Mittens and his raygun VP get in as I would give even odds that in order to vote you will need both ID and proof you actively support the slimy Patriot act which GW and his ilk used to enable a police state.
What this completely ignores is that most of the cases are never even reported because they are not discovered. Organizations will compile lists of people who died in the last year who were registered to vote. People will then show up at the polls claiming to be these people and cast ballots. Unless there is a cross done between death certificates and voter registration and voting rolls, which is currently not done, this fraud is never discovered. This is why the cemetery vote is so big in places like Chicago. Unscrupulous groups organize a bunch of illegals who can not legally vote and give them each a name to use at the polls. It is pretty easy to determine which polling place to send them to because all you need is the dead persons address to determine their polling station. We have had many close elections in this country, both at the national and local levels. It does not take that many votes to swing an election, just look at Florida in 2000 and 2004. In both these elections the presidential vote was very close. With the high percentage of elderly in FL, it is a perfect location to mobilize the cemetery vote to sway an election. Requiring photo IDs would put a stop to this type of fraud.
What it really comes down to is that just because the fraud is not being caught and reported does not mean it is not occurring. You need a photo ID to buy cigarettes, to buy alcohol, to cash a check, to use a credit card, to get on a plane, etc. - why shouldn't you need one to do something as important as elect the leadership of this country.
What, dems are to stupid to figure out how to get an official ID. That seems to be the argument dems make. Oh, and on the "fraud" front: How the heck do they know how much fraud has existed if they aren't allowed to check for it? Kind of like saying that there is no evidence that anyone driving on the roads is driving illegally when they are not checking to see if they have valid driver's licenses. How dumb do they think we are? Well, apparently the libs aren't to smart because they haven't figured out the basics here. They also don't care if their vote is a whole vote or not. Well, since it's apparently just libs who are being fraudulent, then I guess they figure their vote is more than a whole vote.
atelier - Your response was great until the crack you made about Blacks. You need to do your homework before making statements like that. The race with the most people on welfare is Caucasian/White. You should have stopped while you were ahead - nobody listens to bigots, except other bigots.
Joseph Nelson
Your argument is just the opposite of what you imply. The Obama administration is determined to get the votes of those in prisons, deceased, duplication and any other way they can to obtain votes this November. They do not want VOTER ID for this very reason. They also know they will need them and is why they are determined to disallow voter ID's. Of course, you already knew this.
There is no way to check to see if a voter is who they say they are, therefore we have no idea if there is voter fraud, therefore that's proof there is no voter fraud, therefore we do not need voter ID's. That's some convoluted logic if there ever was.
At least where I live in Louisiana, no ID, no vote.
1.14
JS in SD - you have nothing to back up your statements. It is only your opinion. Get evidence, like what was presented in the article. Then someone might listen.
atelier - The last 4 letters of your name sums you up. It's ignorant minded bigots like you that drives such blatant disregard for Democracy in this country. You think one case out of millions justify these unsubstantiated Voter Suppression Laws..? LOL! More than likely you have contributed nothing to this society and no more than many blacks have, considering their plight. And the site below proves there are more whites on TANF (Welfare or Food Stamps for Trailer Trash like yourself) than blacks or Hispanics. In fact blacks have decreased over the years and are the least of the two. Go spew your venom at a Klan Rally or a Trailer Park Convention. Most sensible minded folks don't buy this kind of elusive rhetoric.
The premise of this article is completely wrong. We don't need to have a "problem" to have laws to prevent a "problem" from developing. Not every law must be reactive...we have plenty of laws that are pro-active in nature.
With upwards of 20-30 million people in the country illegally as well as the corruption innate with politics, there is absolutely no reason that the United States is the last "leading country" of the free world to require photo id to prove you are eligible to cast a ballot at the poll.
Additionally, if you have masses of people showing up without photo i.d., how exactly do you determine authoritatively that no one's committing voting fraud? Anyone could show up with an apt lease and a utility bill and claim to be Aunt Jemima Brown and vote....without photo id, how would you know the person in front of you is the person whose name is on the lease/utility bill.....????
This is but another slimy Repugnant attempt at preventing democracy from working. This is not about individual votes, but about the electoral college and redistricting that has been going on in states with Republican governors and chambers. These little men remind me of scared little children who are afraid their toys will be taken for misbehaving.
If one with any capacity for intelligent deduction and reductionist theory or science in lay terms, were to really look at this pathetic attempt by the Republicans you will see what they are really after. It is to prevent full and open participation in the democratic process. Take a look at Ohio for instance. Kaisich along with his Republican minions tried to ram through a bill that would not permit voting by abstention a month before the actual day of voting. The good and sensible people of Ohio got wind of this closed door attempt at another fascist attempt by Kaisich and moved on it with enough signatures to put in on the ballot. The governor and his minions rethought their childish attempt and rewrote the bill to prevent voting in abstention from occurring three days before the polls. Who are these Republicans trying to fool?
It is all about trying to retain power in a vacuum especially when you look at what Ohio tried to do to the public unions in Ohio but was repealed shoved down the throat of Kaisich and his Republican child minions. This is why all Democrats must get out and vote at the local, state and national level to rid ourselves of these self serving POS! They are ruining our country and our middle class way of life forever while they fill their pockets with our money.
Let's not forget States Attorney Generals filing a lawsuit in Federal Court against the AHCA and losing. Why did State Attorney Generals like DeWine file this suit? Maybe to protect his beloved Catholic Church because it sure wasn't for the people of Ohio. Do these Republican Goons think we all are as stupid as they are? Maybe their following is but not those who can think, form sentences and make decisions for ourselves, Democrats, are not. It is time to remove all of them from public office and say never again. These are all little men with penis envy.
Incorrect. The database is majorly flawed in it's numbers.
Example: Investigation into the 2008 Senate race. Senator Coleman apparently won by just over 500 votes. In the following weeks through a series of legal challenges Al Franken finally wins by just over 300 votes.
Here are the many probably and definitely faudulent events that occured.
6 precincts in heavily democratic areas turned in more votes than people who signed in to votes. Oh, but that is no fraud because the number of votes that registered were less than the number of people that signed in. So, in those districts, the undervote (rejected cast votes) were added to the vote totals, making more votes than people that signed in. Realistically, some people failed to vote for a Senate candidate and a boat load cancelled their votes because of an error and voted again. That is part of the "undervote" and by counting the undervote, that means well-meaning people had their votes counted twice.
BTW this same scenario happened in two districts in Ohio during the same election.
Meanwhile in Minnesota, investigations into voter registrations revealed that 1099 convicted felons cast votes in the election. In Minnesota, it is illegal for convicted felons to vote. In Minnesota any convicted felons can be charged with voter fraud but only if they "knew" that voting by felons was illegal. On the lighter side, 354 felons admitted knowing it was illegal for them to vote. 234 have been convicted for the fraud and the remaining 120 are awaiting conviction.
Now, who do you think the felons were voting for? Maybe someone should ask these people.
There are more whites on welfare , in prison , living below the poverty line because 60+% is white only 13% are black and 15% Hispanic.
Difference isn't the overall numbers its the PERCENTAGE of blacks in prison or welfare.
Of course this is because "the man" is keeping them down and thus violence and breaking the law is needed to live and thus acceptable behavior. ei-- gangs
joseph nelson you said "When politicians resort to such measures they have ceased to serve the public interest and are acting to preserve their own dogma while consciously aware that it is unpopular and self serving". "Their dishonor and duplicity is shameful".,....where were you when the democrats hid behind closed doors an wrote the health care bill without 1 republican and used a tactic called reconcilliation , which was not allowed by senate rules but they did it anyway because they didn't have the votes and passed it in the middle of the night, against 78% of the populations wishes. was it draconian and and act of desperation back then?......
voter fraud exists , period! anyone in chicago and boston will tell you that...above board elections benefit everyone because it makes them fair and if your not interested in fair elections , then you must only be interested in unfair elections. any voter fraud at all should be eradicated. you would think you would want that but i guess you don't.
Here is obvious voter fraud that won't be prosecuted. Just in Minnesota, over 2800 people who died before election day voted on election day.
http://www.redstate.com/jrichardson/2009/06/04/minnesota-vote-fraud-2812-dead-voters/
I have voted 50 times in my life. Once I could have voted twice(I did not). About 4 times I was refused to vote ( some obscure city ordinance). Around 8 times I saw a voting judge in the voting booth while the voter voted (possibly to help?). Once I saw a candidate campaigning in the voting area & once, a friend witnessed the same thing. 2yrs ago, another friend tried voting for a candidate but the other candidate's name kept registering- the voting judges told him not to worry & kept the booth running. About 5 times I could have made some money by voting for the other candidate (I would not). I once lost a job by refusing to vote for a certain candidate. A lady I knew once knew of an illegal alien who had some 7 names to vote under. About 5 times I witnessed the voting judge tell the voter what line to vote for. The recent Minnesota Senate election was won by incarcerated criminals votes. The famous Bush/Gore Florida election was won by counting only certain districts while not counting some over 1000 military absentee ballots.
So, a total of 36 irregularities in my lifetime. 32 of these favored the Democrats & the other four are anyone's guess. I do not believe any of these were counted as errors.
And I am only one person!
Here is the link to the Washington Examiner about the felons voting illegally in Minnesota.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/york-when-1099-felons-vote-in-race-won-by-312-ballots/article/2504163
People, many states have laws on the books that require you to have a photo ID on you at all times when you out of your home. It's how they enforce vagrancy laws. So before you cpmplain about how 'un-fair' it is to have to show a photo id to vote, please see if your state already has the law that requires you to always have a photo id in your possession. Most of those states also passed laws that make the official State ID free, because many folks complained about the poor not having the $12 needed to get an ID when they didn't drive. So, in other words, in most states, everybody already has that ID. Don't believe me, google your state. It also is a requirement when you get your license suspended in a lot of states.
I suggest national guidelines: a set group of forms of ID that can be used in every state. Same hours/days for voting nationwide (the longer the better.) No changes in local or state voting laws in any election year, only off years, and proposed changes need approval of 60% of the registered voters before implementation. Independent redrawing of electoral districts.
Free issuance of new for-voting-only ID cards beginning with mandatory registration at age 18 (like Selective Service) which can be done at any post office, clerk's office, or police station complete with your signature (for matching at voting site) and unique number entered into voting database. Scan in at your polling location, can't be used again anywhere in that particular election. Same ID goes with you nationwide and can be updated online (via computer, smart phone or special kiosk) for change of address, name change by marriage, or party affiliation. Eventually everyone will have one.
Obama, a failed experiment
I have a similar point of view. This News21 survey was poorly done. They only represent the some of the known cases of voter fraud. How are the cases of undiscovered fraud counted? Rational thought would say that successful voter fraud cases will go undetected and the successful fraudulent voters won't stop with one vote they will have a system that doesn't get detected.
I visited the News21 page and it is apparent they are biased.
What if the people who don't have a photo ID get on a airplane? How do they cash a check? How do they get to a polling site? Can't the person who takes them to vote take them to get a ID?
tomilvento
Getting evidence of undetected voter fraud is like getting evidence that Odumba saved jobs.
Voting should be tracked by identification, it is the only way to ensure that who is voting is actually allowed to vote. Some say that its only one vote, but that one vote cancels out someone else who voted, in essence making somebody elses vote worthless, I want my vote to count
Kamlhj
A reporter is supposed to have gone to Attorney General Eric Holders precinct and identified himself as Eric Holder. The election worker wanted to give him a ballot even though he had no ID. He left without voting, but the point is well taken.
I think it was Rush Limbaugh who had maintained a resident in both New York and Florida told his audience that because there is a lack of a national voter ID for federal elections, it would have been easy for him to register and vote in both Florida and New York.
This is pretty sad, because here in Ohio the latest scandal was Democrats trying to signing up out of state college kids for here in Ohio. Students say that they were told it didn't matter if they were registered in another state. Seems that it made it very easy for students to vote in two states that way - if they wanted to.
Arguing with Republicans over voter registration, ID requirements, or, for that matter, anything else is rather like trying to argue with a flock of chickens.
This is all a bunch of baloney. I just went through the poll training (they specifically recruited republicans in my state for this), and we were told to validate the IDs of 'those people', and if they have correct IDs, then we are to ask for the 'authorization letter' sent out "to all registered voters". This letter does not exist - it is another way to exclude people from voting.
The catch is that I am a 'true republican' (now they call my types RINO), and I am going to apply this to the conservatives (instead of 'those types'). Hope that they have this fictional letter - or they don't get to vote at my poll station...
In Wisconsin there have been 8 cases of voter fraud in the past decade, yet our Wacko governor Walker and the republicans are trying exclude 10's of thousands of voters. To have to produce a passport or photos at cost is called Poll Taxing and was ruled illegal. The Motor Vehicle Dept. was to post signs telling the public they could get the voter ID photos there for free, but the governor and the nuts that support this Nazi approach to governing had the signs removed! Way? We all know why!
In Wisconsin our Wacko governor Walker has passed voter ID, but it has been ruled Unconstitutional as there have only been 8 cases of voter fraud in the past decade. The Motor Vehicle Dept was to post signs saying that the ID's could be gotten there free, but the signs were ordered removed by walker. Having to produce a passport you paid for or any identity papers you paid for is called a Poll Tax and has been ruled Unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
nein, nein, nein,
No, it is like trying to deal with Nazis! But isn't that the way they want to take us in the first place? Running fade Democrats in Wisconsin. The governor having unlimited funds to run his recall and the competitor under limits, making you sign to vote ( literacy test), super PACS. to buy elections, support for corporations to get more funds( after all the corporations have already bought the republican party!)>
NOIntellect, you are a hateful little (emphasize 'little') man, who needs shock therapy and a couple months in a padded cell. The only 'penis envy' is that you wish that you had one. Now go drink your Ritalin big gulp and put your straightjacket back on - I hear the men in the white coats coming for you...
Whaaaaat ? Against MINORITIES only ?
The DOJ should be investigating Voter Rights for all Americans (not someone who is in the United States ILLEGALLY).
Heck, if folks are allowed to vote who are NOT American citizens, then Mr. Obama will probably get his wish about throwing out the U.S. Constitution and anything to do with establishing the United States of America.
All one has to do is read the posts to figure out WHO is pressing this issue. YUP.....you guessed it right....the Liberals who say it is ALL for the "minorities". Sounds like a Teachers Strike the day before school starts wanting more pay, less work, and more vacation time while chanting: "It is all for the Children".
Very, VERY well said Joseph. I like what that guy says on tv, "it is profane". And by what should be american values .... it should be. This new radical so called GOP we have in congress and across this nation is dysfunctional and desperate. Dirty shame.
whichrunner,
No they just want to have the laws followed and Voter ID information is being withheld in my state of Wisconsin. Now we have to deal with that little imp from Janesville. I will love it whee the right wing nuts find out that Paul Ryan supports gay and lesbian rights and has voted for them on several occasions!
The teabuggers won't like that one bit!
I'm amazed that these states have been able to justify stricter voter ID without presenting any reason for it. The secretaries of state didn't even have to investigate voter fraud in their states because there weren't any cases. All this reminds me of the 60s when human rights groups went into the south to register black voters who were intimidated from voting by white govt and law enforcement workers.
We need to find ways to get more people voting, not fewer. If you are born in this country, it shouldn't be so hard to cast a vote.
I urge everyone to vote whether they have a picture ID or not. If you are turned away, document and challenge that rejection. See how taxpayers like more of their money funneled into investigating voter challenges.
There is no question that there is voter fraud. The problem is that using the current validation processes, there is no way to prove that fraud exists. Quinnipiac did a study a few years ago and found that 9 out of 10 dead people vote Democratic (look it up). There is a youtube video where a guy is allowed to vote even though he has no documentation. (He forgot his wallet at home.). People have also registered their dogs and have been given absentee ballets. What's so hard about proving that you are a legal American? Do you have an address in the voting precinct? Do you have a valid drivers license? Do you have a SS#? Birth certificate? Tax bill? Voter fraud is rampant and that's why the Dems are against proof because they cheat at a 9:1 ratio. But if you're a soldier overseas, the Dems make it as hard as possible to vote.
IDO,
My neighbor is 92 years old and came to America from Nazi Germany in 1939. She came to Missouri and has voted for 70+ years. She lost her passport and citizenship papers 40 years ago when her house burnt down and checked back with Missouri for her papers. They were destroyed when the court house burnt down as well. A check with the Fed. government has her listed as deceased and they will not issue new papers. So, if our Wisconsin Wacko Walker gets his way she would not be allowed to vote for the first time in 70+ years.
Thank GOD the ID law was ruled Unconstitutional!
Thanks White Sox Fan! I have once again demonstrated your ilk are reactionaries and not sentient, thinking things but little men who defend the indefensible with name calling and ridicule. Have a great day as I am now and will sleep very soundly.
DB,
And voter ID would change any of the above scenarios by 1 vote? Not in the least systemic fraud like the recent GOP rep McCotter of Michigan just resigned over voter fraud. In Ohio the Governor, Secretary of State and Attorney General are allowing early voting only in Republican Counties because all Counties have two representatives from each party who vote on early balloting. It has always been pro forma with ties being settled by the GOP Attorney General. Republicans in democratic strongholds vote against and the Attorney General breaks the tie with a no vote in GOP districts he breaks any tie with a yes. Maybe Florida in 2000 should never happen again where they are once again purging voter rolls using ridiculously flawed lists. Have they made the process uniform? No. The Minnesota fraud you cite is pure BS from former Bush Justice Dept.official Hans Von Spakovsky and WSJ hack John Fund whose research is so fatally flawed as to be absurd. The Minnesota Supreme Court and a Special Prosecutor examined each case cited by the Minnesota Majority and used by the authors and passed on by true believers such as yourself. Thirty eight felons attempted to vote illegally not fraudulently and the votes were rejected. It was not fraud because under Minnesota law most felons having served their time are eligible to reapply as registered voters. The same is true in most states the 38 did not know they needed to reapply having previously been registered. The dead voter thing is a right wing legend repeated by the authors and repeated by you with absolutely no proof. It's the same as using David Barton as a historical reference knowing that he is a complete fraud with no background in history or the constitution.
jkh
the photo ID thing is simply the easiest way to prove that you are a legal american citizen. foreign nationals and illegal immigrants should not have a say in our government, just as we have no say in theirs. if you want to vote, become a citizen.
"DB Akron" said:
"Incorrect. The database is majorly flawed in it's numbers."
#1.19 - Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:44 PM PDT
-----------------------
Akron, instead of offering hyperbole to support your biased interpretation of isolated instances of fraud, give us fact-checked substantiation to your claim that this new, comprehensive database, is 'majorly flawed.' ...and stop offering us op-ed web links for these isolated instances. Instead, offer us comprehensive, fact-checked facts. That, has more impact than your obviously biased hyperbole.
Why do they wait to bring all this up now this close to the election? If they want to put new laws in place they had 4 years between elections to do it. I had to get a birth certificate and it took over six weeks to get it and then if you get married you have to get records of your marriage because it would not be the same as your ID.What are those voter ID cards you get when you register if they can issue them what is the difference?You check people's information when you registered them.
Voter fraud is real, but it works well for Obama, why change a good thing, if all the dead people and illegal aliens cant vote then that might hurt Obama, personally if you are not smart enough to come up with some proper ID then you don't need to vote.
clwyd: You have that many illegal aliens in Wisconsin? Amazing. Must be there for all the free stuff the libs were handing out. Now that Walker is there they will probably go elsewhere. Guess you'll be lonely if you stay. But, with that many, I can imagine how many legitimate conservs there are in the state. You libs got trounced in 2010 and that was with all the illegals. Take them away and you haven't a chance. I guess I can see why you want to keep the status quo.
Umm...I've never heard of a state requiring a person to carry Photo ID on them at all times when they are in public. I never take ID when walking my dogs, etc., and have lived in several states. Please site some of these states. A quick google search didn't come up with any, the best info I found was that you have to tell police who you are if requested, and may be held if there is a suspicion until you produce proof of identity. That's different than being required to have such ID on you at all times!
I thought the GOP wanted less government. Now they want mthe government to force people to get photo ID cards where they were never needed before. Penn. Republicans have already told the judge that they will not be able to produce any instances of voter fraud in defending their new law. Hell. they admitted the law was passed to help get Romney elected. " Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done,” A quote by the GOP Majority leader. An admission that they cant win without cheating.
The federal government can demand nude snapshots of airline travelers at a whim in the name of 'national security'. They can pat down babies and restrain parents, and this they call 'protecting our liberty'. Yet overwhelmingly, it is Democrat leadership that wail at the prospect of showing simple, documented proof a person is an American citizen and eligible to vote in a presidential election where the seated Democrat administration is seen by half the country as a complete fraud and a threat to their freedoms under Constitutional law. This administration sues state governments and threatens religious institutions, it blocks immigration laws to protect the stability and security of the nation. The Cloward-Piven Strategy of the 60's left is unearthed and is the basis for why our money must be 'redistributed'. The government will take over your health now, as it has your failing schools, a frighteningly high level of joblessness, our bankrupt economy and the diminished value of our housing. The present administration says the UN is the deciding voice - not Congress - on how Americans will be controlled, how they will be told to war, if you can own a gun, how your freedoms can be upheld or eradicated. NDAA ensures the federal government will decide if you are a threat. When an end to war is the pervasive voice of most Americans, our soldiers remain fighting and dying and effectively ignored. And on all of this, when the whole of federal government has proven it is dishonest, deceitful and divisive, on all these issues only the voters can decide. Only voters can keep us free or put us into tyranny. Which voters? Is voter fraud in this supremely important election not an issue of national security? Is it unreasonable that Americans be able to determine with some certainty who those voters will be? I say, indulge us stupid, marginalized Americans just this once, for there is a limit on the degree to which we will be deceived.
@CuongDNguyen
What measures? Reaching into your pocket to pull out your ID? I do that for all sorts of reasons now and few of them are for anywhere near as important a thing as voting. The question I have is that with little to no evidence to support the claim that it suppresses or prevents anyone from voting why oppose it? All of the libs clamour about the lack of evidence to suggest there is much fraud but ignore the fact that there is no more evidence to support their claims of suppression either.
Funny how that seems to be the liberal mantra for every issue EXCEPT this one.
"Fla. Republican: We wanted to suppress black votes"
http://www.salon.com/2012/07/27/fla_republican_we_suppressed_black_votes/
Just think about the wasted time and money spent by the Republicans to get these laws passed when they could be spending their time on more critical things like: balancing the budget, creating new jobs for the unemployed, providing care for the homeless Vets and small children, etc., etc. A perfect example of Republican care for the citizens in a State is FL, where City Ordinances passed laws not to feed the homeless (small children and Vets, who fought in wars to protect us), took Medicaid away from small, severely sick children under 8 years of age, apply hefty fines to those supplying transportation to the voting polls, or fine history/economics teachers', who discuss the voting process, etc. OMG!! What fine upstanding, Christian, democratic examples coming from the Republican Governors, who have accomplished just as extraordinary examples as Scott's Medicare Fraud in his FL Hospitals while he was the CEO. For those of you who have your own car transportation, remember that when you got to the voting polls.
Who the hell doesn't have an ID in 2012!? You need an ID for almsot everything in this country. Good lord... you must live under a rock not to have one, and if that's the case dont' even bother to vote because more than likely you don't know JACK Sh*t!
Voter ID laws are nothing more than a desparate attempt to suppress Democratic votes. In Ohio, early voting has been expanded in red counties and suppressed in blue counties...how does this reduce fraud? Absentee voting has not been reduced in any state...why, because active-duty military tend to vote Republican. In Texas, military ID's and concealed carry permits are valid, but student ID's are not. Why, because military and concealed carry holders tend to vote Republicans and students tend to vote democrat. It is blatant and obvious what is going on here. I would add that in Texas, it cost $25.00 to get a driver's licence/ID. Not to mention transportation time/cost which many cannot afford. And a minimum of 3-4 hours waiting in line at most locations and not open on evening/weekends. So if you have a job, you are @!$%# out of luck...but working people are SOL anyway as long as Republicans are running things. Anybody not in the top 2% who continues to vote for these thugs should have their head examined.
This all goes to show just how weak the republican nominee really is. In Ohio if you live in a republican district your voting hours are longer than if you live in a democratic district. Someone explain to me what the purpose of that is except to lower the numbers of democrats voting. Republicans show daily why we should kick them all out and send a loud message, just because I am not of your party does not give you the right to take my rights away from me.
atelier Comment collapsed by the community
Well I guess your reasons for wanting to exclude minorities from the voting rolls is obvious. What an ass.
iluvmyblog
Not very many, but tens of thousands more than any real threat of voter fraud. Voter ID's? Fine. All for it. But this rush to enact a cadre of unproven bills before the election is WAY TOO OBVIOUS. Since voter fraud is PROVEN to not have any affect whatsoever on elections, let's enact consistent laws with grace periods so as to not disenfranchise ANYBODY. Any problem with that?
Backcountry164
@CuongDNguyen
What a laugh. There are a thousand examples of would be suppressed voters for every potential fraudulent voter you find. In New Orleans there are thousands that could not provide the appropriate ID or paperwork to claim property that had been in the family for years... birth certificate destroyed along with property records. Elderly that have no such records that vote absentee can't get out and stand in line to get IDs and/or supporting documents. Thousands. Mostly Democrat.
Jim,
Yes it would make a difference.
You would nearly eliminate dead people from voting. The current number of deaths in the US are about 2.5 Million. Right now most states do not require a photo I.D. Ohio requires 2 forms of Id that can come from a Social Security card, utility bill, any photo I.D. or the voter Registration card. Then your signature on your sign in line must be close enough to the last time you voted. The only real protection in many states is that your signature must be similar to the last time you signed in.
The reason I will say nearly, is that those who want to commit fraud will now have to produce fake photo I.D.'s to vote. As long as the states require photo I.D.'s which most people already are required to have ( for purchasing alcohol, working for the states, working for the local governments and driving a car,) that will add a level of difficulty to commit fraud that will cost the cheaters more money.
"Draconian acts of desperation" Well, joseph, if you had used the phrase, "draconian deeds of desperation", you could have made your post a trifle more alliterative, but no more inflammatory.
Sorry, but I fail to see how requiring of voters that they show proof of their identity, such as would be required for a credit card purchase, or to open a bank account, amounts to a "draconian act".
I'm neither a Republican, nor likely to vote for the Romney/Ryan ticket come November. But I support laws requiring voters to provide proof of identity. It does not strike me as "draconian", just common sense.
To the writers of this story, and to those who feel voter fraud never occurs, all the vaunted studies show is an absence of successful prosecution, not that voter fraud never occurs.
Most older Americans remember the Kennedy / Nixon election and the allegations that both the Mafia, and Mayor Daily's political machine used voter fraud to throw the results of Cook County, and thus that of Illinois and, ultimately, the nation in favor of Kennedy. Nothing was proved, I know, but over the years multiple sources have supported these rumors, and, most importantly, the lax elections make such fraud possible.
You have to show an ID to get on a plane, or to buy alcoholic beverages. You should have to show proof of identity to vote too.
I must say I find it funny that the right keeps screaming about smaller gov't , the need for fewer regulations and for gov't to quit passing laws that inhibit growth and opportunity. Yet they are screaming for another law to be passed and in this case it can be argued that it would inhibit the opportunity for thousands of legal Americans to vote.
You can't have it both ways. You can't argue for less gov't in areas and yet argue for more in others. Doing this gives off the impression that you only want gov't to serve only your ideals and not to serve the country as a whole. That is the problems we have in this country right now. There is no middle ground anymore. The independents in this country are the ones losing right now. We are forced to deal with both extremes in almost everything now.
clwyd-2621393
Next time you make a post I would suggest you provide some proof for what you are stating. First, one of my best friends work with the DMV and what you are stating is by no means true, I do not know where you are getting your facts from but it is not from a reputable source. Also I am a adult student at the Universities, and at schools they offer for free to all students a ID for voting. And the senior citizens that we all think can not vote, in Wisconsin they do have the right to vote in Absentee, I myself have done it when I was too busy with work and school, and once you vote they send you a letter every time it is time to vote asking you if you want to vote that way again, and if so provide contact numbers to get the ballet to you.
The problem I have is not the number of fake votes, but the fact that one fake vote is one too many. Also what they do not show here is multiple voting by the same person. But then this is MSNBC reporting and as usual I do not see any support for their facts, but then what else is new.
I am no fan of the GOP/TP, but I do not find it unfair to ask people to prove they can legally vote, so for those concerned about the picture ID requirement, get organized and get the word out, help people who need (and are quantified for) an ID to get one, this has been going on for quite a while now, and there is no excuse for not taking appropriate action. Having said that, I also find it the responsibility of the states requiring these IDs to make sure people have a reasonable opportunity to get an ID without having to jump through hoops.
What is the big deal about having ID??? Who, in this day and age doesn't have some form of picture ID?? Who doesn't have a drivers license or state ID with their picture on it??? Seriously the cost to get an ID is NOT prohibitive for really anyone!!!! To do just about anything in this country you need picture ID. You need it to get a job, apply for loans, cash a check, buy alcohol or get into a bar, buy a pack of cigarettes, fly on a plane, in some cases to even use your credit card, (ours are not signed on back but instead say (see ID) to avoid credit card fraud. I spent 24 years working with folks with disabilities and every single one of them have picture ID and voter registration cards. The list of reasons to need an ID goes on and on. Just who are these folks that can't or won't get picture ID???
And there is the real reason behind all this, eh? Because obviously, if only American citizens were allowed to vote and there was no voter fraud, then every election would be won by a Republican, right? Because the only way those slimy Democrats could ever win an election is by cheating, right?
Has it ever occurred to any Republican that maybe, just maybe, the system is working exactly the way it should be and that all American voters don't support the radical right-wing agenda that has come to own the Republican party lately?
Now don't get me wrong, I am all for voter ID requirements. I vote in Ohio and have for 40 years now. In all that time I have had to show a picture ID (driver's license) and it has never seemed onerous to me. If you don't drive, then state ID's are available and I had many, many friends who had the state ID before they had a driver's license merely to be able to drink. If you can do it to drink, you can do it to vote!
But this manufacturing of voter fraud where none exists and the complete discounting of any evidence to the contrary ("just because none are reported doesn't mean they don't exist") is merely self-serving propaganda! If the Republican party spent 1/10 as much time laying out a clear roadmap for their vision of economic recovery as they spent manufacturing reasons to limit voter participation they would have a much better chance of winning elections! Or would they? Maybe that is the point!
JS, I love it when somebody makes a claim that a practice often goes unreported, but somehow they know all about it. Unless you have personally participated in a voter fraud conspiracy, how would you know that these practices are really occurring?
The inanity of this subjugation within the context of contemporary conservative pretexts suggests that we should be wary that it has an ulterior motive of obfuscating coordinated efforts at real voter fraud organized by the right for execution through some of the more viable methods on that day.
@LMarcT
Thousands? And yet you've failed to provide even one example. Gee, imagine that. Now I'm the one laughing.
This may come as a shock to you but your liberal puppet-masters feed you every bit as much BS as the republicans puppet-masters feed them.
Oh the humanity Mister Speaker , oh the humanity, if we can stop even one case of voter fraud it will definitely be worth this small inconvenience , definitely ! Vote for the real American this november , vote REPUBLICAN !
I noticed all the Libs / Dems are completely against a voter ID. Why? What could possibly be wrong with showing ID to vote? How does that REALLY hurt the election process other then keeping dead people, dogs and illegal immigrants from voting?
The only reason I can see NOT to have a voter ID would be to allow ineligible persons in this country to vote. Other then that, there is absolutely no reason what-so-ever not to have a voter ID. But then again I noticed that certain groups of people want to win by Any Means Neccessary!!! Real Democratic eh???
I dont care if they require 3 photo ids and a blood test to vote. If it keeps the ghetto rats from voting I'll try to restrain my tears.
Typical republican nonsense. Bright idea: "Let's fix a problem that doesn't need fixing, rather than focusing on the problems that do need fixing" (hint: JOBS). Another complete waste of time, energy and taxpayers' money on the republicans' part, not unlike that of 2 unfunded, unnecessary, unending wars.
I just love those that spout how much you need an id to do things. None of those things is a right given by the constitution. Think about how many people have direct deposit, they dont need id. If you think it is so cheap to get an id when you dont have a birth certificate and have to pay for that, then pay to get down to get the id, take time off work and lose money there. All this is, is republicans making a constitutional right more difficult for those that vote democrat. I bet if democrats tried to stop absentee voting you righties would be crying foul.
Here is an idea, why dont you idiots nominate someone that can actually win fairly, without suppressing votes. Maybe if you all werent for taking away from the middle class, against a woman to decide issues about her body, against anyone not lily white, against medicare, then maybe you could actually win an election fairly.
Debdem
A Democrat calling voter id laws a waste of time, what a laugh! You forget that until the 1960s it was the Demcratic Party under the Leadership of the Dixiecrats that had enforced such things as a Literacy test to register to vote on minorities and then they had to pay a Poll tax at the Polling booth in order to vote. These laws were used to disenfranchise thousands of minorities citizens. All that the voter id laws require is that you have a picture id in order to vote. I got one at the DMV for $10. How is that disenfranchising voters?
DB...your Mn rant is false source. Secretary of State said ZERO voter ID fraud. The felon cases are not any voter id fraud. Felons are not properly told when their rights are given back to vote. Repubs and dems passed a bill to make notifying felons at specific time to correct the problem. Gov Pawlenty vetoed the bill to keep people like you making false claims of voter fraud. This had ZERO effect on election.Not one case can be proved any felon voting knew they couldn't. They used proper id in every case.
10 cases our 15 millions... Someone recently said that in person voter fraud is less likely than getting struck by lightning while being bitten by a shark in the voting booth. Thought this thread needed a bit of lightening up.
Section 2 of the voting rights act:
SEC. 2. No voting qualification or prerequisite to voting, or standard, practice, or procedure shall be imposed or applied by any State or political subdivision to deny or abridge the right of any citizen of the United States to vote on account of race or color. -- Just because the VRA does not specifically state "... on account of race, color, economic standing or infirmity" does not meant that it is fair to exclude voters based on these potential issues.
Disenfranchising 100's of elderly voters how are bed ridden due to an ailment and therefore cannot make it to the DMV easily is worth preventing the 1 out of 15 million chance of in person voter fraud? Really? Really? The voter ID laws are not onerous for those who are ambulatory and have the money to spare on IDs but how about the folks who don't have easy access to transportation? Can't spare the ~$20 because they are unemployed or under-employed and still have to eat/buy meds/feed a family?
Voter ID laws are not democratic (little "d") because they do place a burden on a segment (regardless of size) of the population. If you can't see this tree through the BS forest then you have NO idea why the 15th amendment or the voting rights act were instituted and therefore have forgotten what America stands for. 1 out 15 millions votes is fraudulent so lets disenfranchise 100s of people to prevent it is like saying that Sasquatch could come and eat you so we should establish a Sasquatch hunting party with MILLIONS of dollars to hunt them down.
If this is not an attempt by one party to suppress the voter turnout for another party why did PA state legislator Mike Turzai say "...Voter ID, which is going to allow Gov. Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, [is] done.”?
How about the fact that in Ohio democratic leaning counties were allowed fewer hours to vote than the republican leaning counties? This has been changed but only because of pressure put on Sec of State Husted.
A third example is Ohio's sec of state attempting to fire two election board members in Montgomery county for following his direction (to allow weekday early voting) and allowing weekend voting, which happened during the republican primary. The republicans on the board also voted to allow it but then, after pressure from Husted, backtracked. Early voting on weekends allowed christian churches to help their congregations get to the polls... is that such a bad thing?
The previous 2 cases of voter fraud found in Kansas was legal residents. First was a republican farmer trying to vote in two different counties, because he owned land in both counties. The other was a Democratic woman, that voted absentee, then tried to vote in person. These are the only two resent cases in Kansas, and was found by a Democratic Attorney General.
Voter fraud charges forthcoming?
2) Voting for Scott Brown in 2010, Romney said he was physically living in his son's basement in MA, while at the same time physically living in CA with his wife. Houdini should be so lucky.
THEY COVERED THAT LOOP HOLE ALSO IN KANSAS. If you vote by mail in Kansas you must identify what photo ID you have and write the serial number on your voter form. This again disenfranchises these same elderly voters. I am sick and tired of those brainless morons stating you need a photo ID to open bank accounts, buy beer and get on a plane or train. These people have to be pushed in wheel chairs to get some time outside. There are some that fought in the Battle of the Bulge, Hit the beaches of Normandy, Survived 25 missions over Germany,or hit the beaches of Guadalcanal, or Iwo Jima. They would be more than glad to show an ID for a beer. What a joke. They had IDs at one time all they needed to survive. Dog tags and a rifle. They opened bank accounts and sent their kids to school before drivers licenses even had a photo, they voted then. Some of these voters were even recycled into the Korean War, and Pork Chop Hill. Some are even from Vietnam. The people than are for these law, shove your children into combat, and their brats never get near a recruiting station. These people that promote voter ID laws are the one that would strip your health care, and wage protection laws. That is exactly why they want ID Laws. Less to buck the system when they come after your other rights.
And these people that you are talking about would fight you over their right to
vote, if someone voted in their place. Ask any of them, about the Daley Machine
in Chicago (guess which party) Slogans "vote early and vote often" and
"even the died vote for Daley". So do things go on today, let's
see in VA pets even got voter registration cards by mail and the DOJ isn't
going to look in to it. Wow same old thing.
Steve
Romney had not changed his residency status and also only voted once and only in Massachusetts. Big difference.
Did you see the story on Pennsylvania's Voter Hall of Fame members, all of whom have voted in at least 50 elections - and a quarter of whom would not be able to vote this November because of changes in required voter ID? Some are in their 90s, no longer have a valid driver's license or passport (if they ever had one). These good people have come out year after year, election after election, to do their civic duty and will now be unable to cast a vote in the next election. These are Democrats, Republicans and Independents, not just one party or another.
This is nuts. For most of our nation's history there was no photo ID requirement and the Republic still stood. There is far more vote-COUNTING fraud than vote-casting fraud.
1st step...dump loser Obama and his leeches.....2nd step...make sure those voting are qualified....
CHEERS
So few voter frauds--yet Willard Mitt Romney was one, using his son's MA basement as his alleged 'domicile' or primary place of residence to vote fraudulently in MA.
Way to go, Willard.
remember when they counted chads for 4 months in florida what a joke
The america voters are not commiting fraud in the system its the people who put hidden buttons on the screens to change which person won the votes that commit the fraud which is basically the people behind the system. Proven many times. People have died exposing the truth. But yet ignorant Americans still believe in a system that has been broke for many generations, because they cant research truth they can only tune in to some strangers lies(any media source) and believe it as truth. Hence the term Wake up out your braindead slumber and stand for what is right just because you allow ignorance to take hold of your brain doesnt mean you wont suffer the consequences of your ignorant actions.
These same laws were used in the South to deny Blacks the right to vote. Here it is 2012 and they are at again. THis is the Republicans attempt to rig the election again to make sure Romney wins.They cant guarantee people will vote for him so they have to cheat. Look at the attempt to impeach CLinton, the Florida elections debacle in 2000 and the issues in 2004 in Ohio. Bush won the election but did not win the popular vote. This article proves what we already know. The republican party cannot win on the merits of its own policies and candidate.
So this report is only talking about the cases that are known and are public record. To get away with voter fraud its probably best that you don't let people know you are committing fraud. Why did they fail to mention all the dead people who vote? For some reason once people die they automatically convert to a democrat, funny how that works...
to just one guy.. exactly, what does one have to do to be qualified to vote? question about that ID thing. suppose, just suppose you are on your way to vote and you lose your wallett (or it gets stolen), do you still get to vote? you don't have an ID to present. Even if the election judge sitting there knows you, you still have to present an ID. What will you do?
@Floretta
Ummm, in case you were unaware, the "next election" is in November. It is only August now. These people have 3 months to get the proper ID and I'm sure they'll have no trouble getting help if they need it. But please feel free to over react.
Why is it that only the Dems seem to be having a problem with voter ID laws. You need ID for just about everything that you do these days. As far as the people on welfare go , I have been on it and you do need ID to get it so that arguement is moot. The only thing voter ID will surpress is voter fraud. Now the Obama administration is trying to manipulate the military vote by taking away the extra days they have to vote. That man and his administration have no shame at all. Pelosi hears and see's ghosts , Reed has secret informers that he can't reveal , Obama's super pac has some poor smuck imply that Romney was responsible for his wife's death and best of all , Obama has now stated that he thinks his wife should be paid for being the first lady because it is hard work. It is truely a certified nut farm.
Great question Tony-506076! What would happen under the same scenario and you were pulled over for speeding? No ID, what happens then? They can look you up and verify who you are! Same state government, same abilities. You are an idiot if you think that validates the argument that you shouldn't need to prove who you are. I vote for ink on our fingers and voting in person only.
Well We all know that is the ONLY way the REPUBLICANS can win by rigging the elections, BUSH did it before and they are trying to rig it permanently and they wonder why We don't want no REPUBLICAN leading our country. NO SURPRISE HERE! FROM the beginning of our NATION NO ID was required, I don't care what else an ID is needed to do now it has nothing to do with the peoples CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO VOTE.
Can we call this what it is?
The Republicans knew along time back that they could not sell their ideas so at a secret Koch brothers meeting (with sound vibration protected windows) they got together (google it!) Reps, Senators, and Governors to develop a cohesive plan denying the vote to minorities, elderly and the poor. They figured that with the Citizen United ruling and selective new anti-voter fraud laws they could swing the election their way ensuring a unbeatable GOP both financially and legislatively for decades (probably until they took the guns). To keep the religious right in their corner they legislated endless abortion/antiwomen laws with no hope of passage.
This is the sorry state of our country. Corporations have turned the corner and in less then four years rewritten history and are currently running a candidate who is the very poster child of what is destroying this wonderful country. Worst of all they have regular folks thinking they are the party of freedom.
Amazingly sad.
Well We all know that is the ONLY way the REPUBLICANS can win by rigging the elections, BUSH did it before and they are trying to rig it permanently and they wonder why We don't want no REPUBLICAN leading our country. NO SURPRISE HERE! FROM the beginning of our NATION NO ID was required, I don't care what else an ID is needed to do now it has nothing to do with the peoples CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO VOTE.
To all, so what if you need to provide proof of who you are when you vote? What's the big deal? Where I live, you currently don't need to provide proof, you are supposed to, but if you can't you just need to provide a name and address- good enough. I'm not sure forcing proof of identity is bad. I'm also not sure that it would solve any potential problems. Why not impose a life sentence on any election worker who allows fraud, that would probably fix most problems immediately. I agree with several previous posts, its not us the voters that need to be watched, its the election workers. Here is an example, in Washington state 2004 the republican candidate wins the election by hundreds of votes. In the recount, the most liberal county in the state finds a voting machine with uncounted ballots in it. The machine had been verified twice as not having any. Those ballots bucked the trend of votes and gave the democrat a victory by a very narrow margin. Its not voters that need to be watched its the people administering the elections because they have the most to lose and most definitely have the most to gain from the outcome!
So we like to pretend the argument against requiring ID to vote is that some people don't have ID and shouldn't be forced in their elderly, infirm and/or poor state to go out and get one because that would be unfair and inconvenient to them, yet there is voter fraud--not prevalent, but definitely the fraud exists at varying levels in varying forms. Really this argument is actually not just that forcing the elderly, infirm or poor to go out and get ID is unfair but that it IS somehow FAIR for other law-abiding people to be denied their right to a vote altogether because someone voted fraudulently in their place, and we'd prefer as a society to have criminals voting illegally than to inconvenience people by requiring everyone to provide proper identification.
If a person is so elderly or infirm that they cannot go and get identification, it is doubtful that they are physically able to get to the polling place to vote in person in the first place, and therefore they would likely vote by absentee ballot anyway and wouldn't require photo ID. For those who are perfectly healthy and able to get around and are just poor, there is no excuse beyond their own refusal to do what is in their best interest in the first place. If they really want to vote, they should go and get ID. In most cases it is completely free (cost of travel aside), and they will benefit by having it, as it will make countless programs available to them for which they would otherwise not qualify. Furthermore, the rights of the elderly, infirm and poor to vote are equally protected by the voter ID laws, as it provides their votes with a certain level of security guaranteed to them that their vote will not be stolen. To NOT have some sort of voter ID law simply because requiring ID forces certain segments of the population to make not an extra effort but them SAME EFFORT as the rest of the voting population would inconvenience that segment is actually providing them with GREATER voting rights than the rest of the populace, as their right to not be identifiable by readily available means infringes on and impedes the voting rights of those whose votes are stolen by illegitimate voters taking their place.
What part of proving who you are, in a very brief and indiscriminate way, are you afraid of? If its the conservatives that are cheating us, why is it only liberals that are crying foul? Maybe the guilty are crying because they may no longer be able to decide for the rest of us who leads us? BTW, ever heard of identity theft? Maybe I should cry foul if I am required to prove I have health insurance, why should I, everyone is required to, so treat me!
But lu-1328381-6558772 you forgot about wanted criminals, felons, and convicts; they can't go get an ID because if they do they may be arrested and denied a chance to vote. And what about the people that have already registered illegally? They won't be able to get an ID to confirm who they are, its not fair to take their vote, is it? Geesh!
I agree with you completely!
Here's my point - we think that we know this is going on, but these people are not being pursued by the police. So using the measurement that there are not "cases" has ZERO merit, as the people committing fraud with the IRS have legitimate TIN numbers (a social security number for non-citizens), so even if these "citizens" were investigated, they would appear to be legal.
So if the IRS, whose only job is to collect and manage the nations cashflow cannot figure out that 56,994 people cannot live at 10 addresses, and they pay out $86 million because they are too stupid to spot this in just 10 cities, imagine the fraud nationwide, and to extend this back to voting, why does anyone think we can trust the government any longer with any kind of information, let alone our money?
Fraud, incompetence, criminality, every day there are new news stories about these activities within our government - city, county, state, federal. There is far more evidence to suspect that illegals ARE voting than there is that they aren't. As it is, there are criminals spending all their time defrauding us, and our government cannot protect us from them. All we can do is stop giving our government the assets to lose.
To assume there is no voter fraud is ignorant at best, lunacy at worst.
"why is it only liberals that are crying foul?"
Because it's people who typically vote democrat that are being targeted, the poor and elderly. Nothing new, the republicans don't have any ideas so they have to try dirty sheit by trying to make it harder for people to exercise the fundamental right to vote.
Yes, I've heard of identity theft, so what? People are going to steal someone's ID so they can vote twice? Do you even know the risk and penalty for being caught committing voter fraud?
Should you cry foul to prove I have health insurance? Good job comparing apples to oranges. You really are comparing health insurance to voting?
Just think about the wasted time and money spent by the Republicans to get these laws passed when they could be spending their time on more critical things like: balancing the budget, creating new jobs for the unemployed, providing care for the homeless Vets and small children, etc., etc. A perfect example of Republican care for the citizens in a State is FL, where City Ordinances passed laws not to feed the homeless (small children and Vets, who fought in wars to protect us), took Medicaid away from small, severely sick children under 8 years of age, apply hefty fines to those supplying transportation to the voting polls, or fine history/economics teachers', who discuss the voting process, etc. OMG!! What fine upstanding, Christian, democratic examples coming from the Republican Governors, who have accomplished just as extraordinary examples as Scott's Medicare Fraud in his FL Hospitals while he was the CEO. For those of you who have your own car transportation, remember that when you got to the voting polls.
Someone on the right tell me that the GOP is not trying letting the people have the right to vote, when in Ohio some districts are letting the voting polls open longer(GOP districts) than those in Democratic districts, they say its because its to expensive, but the districts have offered to pay for it and they still refuse to let them stay open longer. In the Democratic districts they are open from 8-5, but the GOP districts they are open from 7-8, now you tell me that they are not trying to control the voting!
It is really sad that the GOP has resorted to this tactics, I guess its the only way they can win, by suppressing the vote!
Every retailer will agree that "shoplifting" is rampant yet few shoplifters are caught. (They know this by checking their inventories). With voter fraud there is no "inventory" to check. The "study's" methodology of looking at only those who were suspected or caught is fatally flawed and meaningless. If we only looked at suspected shoplifters and those who were caught there would be little shoplifting as well. I'd toss this study out the window.
"In 2003, the Indiana Supreme Court invalidated East Chicago Democratic Mayor Rob Pastrick’s primary victory because of massive fraud."
So the article claims that there is virtually no voter fraud, and then the author admits that there was 'massive' voter fraud. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
And since even trying to find if someone has voted illegally is virtually impossible because of 'privacy concerns', we don't really know how big a problem this is.
In Minnesota, ACORN (convicted of numerous fraud allegations) registered over 40,000 primarily Democratic voters in 2008, which no doubt helped Al Frankin to win a Senate seat by only 300 votes, which gave the Democrats the needed 60 (filibuster proof) votes to pass Obamacare.
To claim that this issue has never had any effect is ludicrous.
By the way - the challenge to Pennsylvania's Voter ID law will likely go nowhere because the Supreme Court has already ruled that Voter ID laws are valid - here's the link;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24351798/ns/politics/t/supreme-court-upholds-voter-id-law/#.UCeaEJ1lRT0
It's more difficult to catch your employees stealing from you. Research the percentage of employees that will steal from you.
I must say I find it funny that the right keeps screaming about smaller gov't , the need for fewer regulations and for gov't to quit passing laws that inhibit growth and opportunity. Yet they are screaming for another law to be passed and in this case it can be argued that it would inhibit the opportunity for thousands of legal Americans to vote.
You can't have it both ways. You can't argue for less gov't in areas and yet argue for more in others. Doing this gives off the impression that you only want gov't to serve only your ideals and not to serve the country as a whole. That is the problems we have in this country right now. There is no middle ground anymore. The independents in this country are the ones losing right now. We are forced to deal with both extremes in almost everything now.
Here is all the evidence anybody needs that the creepy republicans motives are to supress minority/Democratic votes to win the election. Check the link out, it is an article from Fox news(of all places) in which it has proof that republicans admitted their motives are to supress minority votes any way they can to win elections.
Let's face it the gop are the most destructive, anti American, treasonous, bunch of scum bribed politicians on the planet. Can't wait to vote them all out in November!!!!!!!!
You have to ask yourself...why are the Democrats so worried about this? To the point of calling their opposition racist for wanting photo ID's. You need a photo ID for just about everything in this country. Why are you libs so worried? Why an article dedicated to it on NBC? Where there is smoke, there is fire!
You need a photo ID to get a job, to get welfare benefits, to apply for social programs for health and mental health...Are all these entities racist too?
Well then make the argument. I'll have that discussion with you
Sorry my link to above article did not download here it is -
I'll make the argument for this. Simply put, people work. Those are working hours.
You want proof of voting fraud?? Check out the county in Ohio that had more votes for G W Bush than they had registered voters in the county. Wonder how many of them had voter ID.
Or the Blackwell case in Ohio where he had fewer voting machines per number of registered voters in Cleveland, Ohio than he had in known Republican districts.
Now that's voter fraud.
Larry-2260635
You make a great case for photo ID! It seems this article was wrong, eh Larry? Fraud is going on!
I read some of these posts and I truly fear for my country. So here is just a few points, I think based on logic and reason, to rebut the leftist claims.
First, does anyone seriously believe it is difficult in the USA to vote, or has been made more difficult over time? And has the ease with which you can vote led, as backers promised, to a higher proportion of people voting? My answer...no, and no.
Second, does anyone seriously think that in a country where around 1/2 to 2/3 of those eligible to vote--meaning legally registered to vote--actually do vote that figuring out who votes and who doesn't is impossible? I ask this because it would be nearly impossible for a voter impersonation event to occur unless the voter you impersonate ends up also voting in that election. The point is that virtually no one would claim a crime has occurred because virtually no one would know a crime did occur. People don't report what they don't know, and if there is no way to confirm who you are, as in my state, then those people I face when I vote couldn't possibly know who I really am either.
Third, why does the left assume, absent a set of laws which might capture more data, that little fraud exists, but also assumes, despite decades of voter behavior to the contrary, that every single person without a valid ID is a likely voter? So in PA, omigosh, 750k voters don't have the required ID? A. How do they know this since they don't have an ID to know this. B. Do you honestly think all of these people, citizens of such intensity that they don't even have an ID despite laws ALREADY on the books they must (vagrancy), are just itching to vote?
I swear that it is impossible to have a serious debate with leftists about this, or really any, issue. No matter the subject it invariably turns into a hysterical hissy fit.
Voting should be made more difficult, not because I want to stop blacks from voting. I don't, and any claim to the contrary is a lie. It should be made more difficult because making it more easy has failed to produce ANY of the promises made by those who fronted that argument. And what do voter ID laws show in the states that have adopted them? Contrary to the liberal hissy fitters, minority voting increased, and not just because our epic failure of a president was on the ballot. Even when that pile of pig poop wasn't on the ballot minority voting participation increased.
Excellent point. The right-wing seems to believe that our Founding Fathers could do no wrong. Yet, they had no requirements for any sort of identification, even in larger cities where not everyone was known to his neighbors.
There is a reasonable compromise for photo ID ... they can be required ONLY where employees of the state will visit every citizen who is too old, to ill, too far or otherwise unable to visit an office that issues photo ID and issue the photo ID right in their homes. I live about 20 miles from the closest DMV office, and the lines there are very long, much too long for an elderly person in ill health to stand. There's also the question of getting there ... a taxi would be prohibitively expensive. Home visits are the only fair way.
So, the solution is the implementation of legally-mandated studies that are designed to capture more data. If those studies show fraud, then the photo ID laws can be put into place and there's be much less resistance to them.
The point is that only 1% of this country is there voter fraud, not enough to sway the election one way or the other.
The Right always talks about the OUR Constitution, what happened to OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO VOTE!
My late Mother in Law administered voting tests to black folks in Floyd County, Georgia for years. She never thought of herself as a racist because she would use the word Negro as opposed to the alternative. The sole purpose then, and now, is to deny minorities the right to vote. Most of the states that have passed these voting laws are also the ones that passed UNCONSTITUTIONAL laws allowing radical profiling--said the SCOTUS.
You don't have to be the brightest light bulb in the chandelier to figure out that all of the GOP's efforts to disenfranchise minority voters and constant redistricting are racially motivated.
Why is it that small towns in Utah that are all white, most all receiving Food Stamps, and other aid, aren't fodder for discussion---including polygamy that the Mormons and the State of Utah ignore?
6 months ago, Republican voters said that they would never vote for a Mormon because they were a cult. Now you have before you a Mormon and a Ayn Rand follower. What would Jesus do?
Obama-Biden 2012
Gil, there is nothing similar to voting and shoplifting. Another unfounded right wing comment.
How many millions of dollars are we going to spend per each voter fraud prevented. It will take millions to implement these laws and has indeed cost us taxpayers millions already and the laws are not even implemented yet. Plus these laws go after the the least of our problems in our elections. Absentee Voting and election fraud are much more rampant and are not addressed by these laws. So I do not want to hear how fiscally conservative Republicans are. That is a huge lie! In my life Republicans have spent way more wasteful money and have directed our economy to scandalous crashes where the the top percentile make out like bandits at the expense of the middle class. When ever these guys get in office watch your wallets middle class. They find ingenious ways to steel us blind. You can have my vote if you can take it from my cold dead hands.
If we want to have fair elections without real fraud, all we have to do is have the death penalty for any politician or CEO say of DieBold convicted of corruption.
That is an intelligent remark. This media and comments have all said that it would prevent those without picture ID from voting of all parties. Guess since there is so much concern from the left about these poor disenfranchised individuals, the majority must be Democratic Voters.
It is amazing how many of these disenfranchised people have SS cards, bank accounts, food stamps, WIC, Medicaid, Medicare, the list is endless, all without proper ID.
Me, I don't give a damn one way or the other, as one of the great world leaders said, it's not who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes. It is what it is! Why should we expect an honest, legal election system from the most corrupt Country in the world? Of course we are only corrupt when it comes to spending our tax dollars on kickbacks to supporters, Campaign fund raising, supporting overthrows of foreign governments, etc. We are such a peace loving country. Point your fickle finger at which ever group of politicians you wish, none have been any better than the other. Except Obama, we are so much better off than we were 4 yrs. ago. We have no national debt, Gitmo was closed and all those poor prisoners were released to go back to their families and peaceful homelands, we have no involvement in any foreign wars, our tax dollars are not being funneled to rebel organizations to aid in overthrowing foreign governments, we all own our own homes with solar panel and wind turbine to charge our electric cars, a chicken in every pot (receiving some flack from PITA), no bills and most importantly, everyone that wants to work has a job and those that don't get share the good fortunes of those that do. Why would anyone want to change all of this?
And there we go again. Only Democrats practice voter fraud, eh? Because obviously, if only American citizens were allowed to vote and there was no voter fraud, then every election would be won by a Republican, right? Because the only way those slimy Democrats could ever win an election is by cheating, right?
Has it ever occurred to any Republican that maybe, just maybe, the system is working exactly the way it should be and that all American voters don't support the radical right-wing agenda that has come to own the Republican party lately?
Now don't get me wrong, I am all for voter ID requirements. I vote in Ohio and have for 40 years now. In all that time I have had to show a picture ID (driver's license) and it has never seemed onerous to me. If you don't drive, then state ID's are available and I had many, many friends who had the state ID before they had a driver's license merely to be able to drink. If you can do it to drink, you can do it to vote!
But this manufacturing of voter fraud where none exists and the complete discounting of any evidence to the contrary ("just because none are reported doesn't mean they don't exist") is merely self-serving propaganda! If the Republican party spent 1/10 as much time laying out a clear roadmap for their vision of economic recovery as they spent manufacturing reasons to limit voter participation they would have a much better chance of winning elections! Or would they? Maybe that is the point!
As I recall it was the Liberals calling Mormons a cult, still do. To answer you question, "What would Jesus do"; He would vote for the Muslim, of course. Why would he want to vote for one of his followers?
Remember when JFK was running for Prez. Catholics were a cult and would destroy this country, maybe that was the real reason why he was assassinated, because Catholicism was running rampant in this country. If there was any President in the history this country that was responsible for the increase or spread of any religion it is our current one. Other than Woodrow Wilson, there has been no President more racist than this one. Obamaism is a cult. Islam is a cult.
P.S. EEngineer LBJ was the master of graveyard manipulation. Several other Texas Democrats learned well from him. (one not so well, he got caught)
Check the records and teaching of the Catholic church. it and other religions list Mormonism as a cult. Having relatives in the Church of Latter Day Saints I can assure you it is a cult Paul!
The last major case of voter fraud that was prosecuted was in 2004 in Ohio and two repugnicans went to prison for vote tampering. The vote totals changed miraculously between the time that they were sent to an unsecured and unnecessary site (electronically) and the time they were received at their destination. These totals delivered Ohio to bushco and the White House. A subsequent lawsuit challenging the totals was thrown out not because it lacked merit but because Kerry himself didn't file it. All of this occurred after the CEO of Diebold, the maker of the voting machines, promised personally to "deliver Ohio to Bush".
So in summary, there is rampant voter fraud but it is being perpetrated by the GOP/PNAC/TP vote counters, not by the voters. It's time to systematically start prosecuting the repugnican crimes against our union.
To Larry post 2:37 You must be mistaking, this whole article was about how through the investigation into voter fraud was and very few instances of fraud were found. They didn't mention yours. Surely you wouldn't fabricating a story or could this be another example of a study being done in a manner to produce the results they want to find?
P.S. G-Man they will not let post a link that may discredit them, you have post it in segments in several comments.
"I'll make the argument for this. Simply put, people work. Those are working hours."
Kornfed,
Are you really saying that the people who live in Democratic controlled districts don't work? You must know that there are Republicans who live in these districts too. Do they not work? The times should be consistent throughout the state or there is obvious and intentional voter suppression taking place and should be investigated.
clwyd I was raised Catholic, I never heard Mormons referred to as a cult, other than the original the early polygamist colonies. The current LDS (Mormon) Church does not foster those ideas. I too have relatives whom are LDS. If belief in wholesome family and community values are a cult, then we need more cults like them. My wifes brother as 9 children, and all of them are clean productive citizens. The youngest is 17 and already a leader in the community. I guess you would classify people that don't have their bodies full of piercings and tattoes and look like a bunch gangbangers a cult.
It is very interesting that Joseph Stalin said that "the real power rests, not with the voters, but with the vote counters."
Clearly, the GOP/PNAC/TP took that not as a warning but as advice on how to acheive and maintain power. Clearly, the repugnican party doesn't believe in democracy. They favor plutocracy.
@Sam627556
From the beginning of our nation? LOL!! In the beginning of our nation only white landowners were allowed to vote. So you really think there should be no modification of our voting process and we should apply the standards set "from the beginning of our nation"? Yeah, didn't think so! Maybe next post you should use more logic and less rhetoric so as to avoid sounding foolish.
G-Man @ 2.31 and 2.35: I'm still waiting for that link so I can read it for myself.
Barry @ 2.41: How about responding to mine @ 2.25
Laura @ 2.42: Where did the 1% come from?
CLWYD: @ 2.44: My comment was directed at the stupidity of the methodology. Try: Since I put out 10 mouse traps last night and didn't catch one; there must be no mice in my house. How's that?
Mikie @ 2.45: You, like I am rightfully worried about waste and abusive spending of taxpayer money. Let's go back to 2008, McCain v Obama. If either McCain or Obama felt that a particular election law was unfair and decided to challenge its Constitutionality the candidate would hire attorneys at his own expense or that of his campaign. The State Attorney General would defend the challenge and if the other candidate chose, he could join in the fight, but again at his own expense or that of his campaign.
In the instant challenges Obama is wasting and abusing finds from the US Treasury, to support his election challenge. Obama's good buddy Holder, should not be involved. If Obama feels the election rules are unfair to him, he and his campaign should foot the bill for that fight, not the taxpayer.
Sharon,
since when does popular vote win a presidential election? If the republicans are the ones cheating why are they calling for voter ID'S? The republicans know that it is the democrats who cheat, that is why republicans want voter ID's . The democrat party has morphed into a despicable bunch of lawless sheep who blindly follow their leaders, never question anything the leaders say or do.
Typical of the Republican, evangelical Christians is their un-Christian like behaviour. They can't win any other way than to cheat. The Republican party has morphed into a despicable bunch of lawless sheep who blindly follow their leaders, never question anything the leaders say or do.
@nwnative
And your post clearly defines you as a free thinker...oh, wait. LOL!
Out of curiosity, are you the pot or the kettle?
So, if you are elderly, don't drive anymore, possibly born at home (some of these older people were), on a fixed income without money to spare for the cost of an ID, or to get copies of your birth certificate if you were not born at home, or your marriage certificate, you don't have a voice.
If you are poor, use public transportation, it is difficult for you to get to the appropriate department to get an ID, you can't afford it. You don't get a voice.
The good ole pole tax, which is not legal, in a new form!
G.W. Bush tried to prove huge voter fraud when he was president. He ended firing the lawyers he had working on it. One said he was not going to manufacture evidence.
It seems Ohio may be worried about the federal suit. They have come up with a new tactic. Each county has an equal number of republicans and democrats on their election board. In the republican leaning counties both parties have voted to keep their early voting days and hours. In the very large cities which tend to be democratic leaning the democrats are voting for keeping them and the republicans are voting against it. Since they have a tie the republican Secretary of State gets to break the tie! Surprise, surprise -- he voted with the republicans. These counties have large cities with many, many, many more people but they don't get the same opportunities to vote.
Why is it that only the republican controled states are doing this? And also in a really big hurry to do it before the election.
Why do they have a video of a Republican in the Pennsylvania congress saying "voter ID law, passed, which will ensure that Mitt Romney will win the state of Pennsylvania."
Democrats in Wisconsin complained that the departments you needed to get your voter ID were having their hours cut or were being closed in democratic leaning counties and hours extended in republican leaning counties.
You really think that is about voter fraud??? No! They know exactly what they are doing and why!
We are a Country that has demonstrated to the world in the past, that we are leaders of Democracy and champions of Human Rights Issues. Our citizens have given their life, have lost limbs, been wounded and
suffered emotion and physical scars to defend Democracy and human injustices on foreign soil. We must be seen now as the biggest hypocrites, we tell them how to govern yet we suppress the Vote in our own Country to ensure that there is a Republic Regime controlling our Country. The Voter ID laws effort groups that historically vote Democratic. Ohio’s Attorney General has decided in favor of Counties that lean toward Republican Party to have extended hours, but those Counties that lean toward Democratic
Party cannot have extended voting hours. What ever happened to equal protection under the law.
Grover Norquist made the following statement concerning Mitt Romney as President. “All we have to do is replace Obama. ... We are not auditioning for fearless leader. We don't need a president to tell us
in what direction to go. We know what direction to go. We want the Ryan budget. ... We just need a president to sign this stuff. We don't need someone to think it up or design it. The leadership now for the modern conservative movement for the next 20 years will be coming out of the House and the Senate.” “The requirement for president?’ “Pick a Republican with enough working digits to handle a pen to become president of the United States. This is a change for Republicans: the House and Senate doing the work with the president signing bills. His job is to be captain of the team, to sign the legislation that has
already been prepared.” So the Republican party wants control of all three branches of government, those of us who are Democrats and Independents will not have any say in the laws and policies of our Country? What the Republican Party wants, as stated by Grover Norquist is a Regime not a Democracy. Other Countries who Govern by a Regime: Cuba, Libya, N.Korea, China and Vietnam.
We give financial aide to other countries, but we will make deep cuts to the programs that assist
our poor. Oh but wait we will be increasing our Military Budget so we can go to war against Countries who want to deny Democracy to their own or threaten someone else’s Democracy.
How do Countries view us when we put our government up for bid and fix elections by suppressing
the votes of a political party with different views?
If this is happening, then I completely agree. It should be fair for all. How are the Republicans able to have only their districts open longer? I'd like to see some proof of this. If you can, then I agree, this is unfair.
Pathetic Emotive Arguement and people believed (voted for) your post. Anyone with a computer and knows how to use it can google search US Military Identification Cards, and when the first photos were used on them.
If you are going to use the US Military (Veterans) in your arguement (posts), be one.
All this Voter Identification thing was already discussed (how to Illegally circumvent) in article,
New Mexico's law on driver's licenses under fire
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44255813/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/?gt1=43001
Add to post#2.63,
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703954904575110124037066854.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird
HINT: This National Identification Card thing is a Democratic Party Idea, NOT Repugnant Party; just like President Obama's January 21, 2009 Patriot Acts (plural Acts, not the same as President Bush's Patriot Act (singular Act)).
Go google (re)search.
Not according to the Democratic Party; as previous suppression of attempts as: California Proposition 187 (must be US Citizen to receive US Citizen Funded (US Taxpayer) Public Assistance of any kind); President Bush's attempt for US Congress to pass into US Law, Illegal Immigration Crisis Response Act of 2006 (US Law Enforcement and US Intelligence Agencies indicated over 23 Million Illegal Aliens at US during the 2006 Nationwide Demonstration of Illegal Aliens against US Congressional Passage of President Bush's Illegal Immigration Crisis Response Act of 2006 into US Law), suppressed information of: the current over 25 Million Illegal Aliens at US, how Illegal Aliens do not pay any Taxes, how the Illegal Aliens obtain benefits for life at US (various names), cost per State of Illegal Aliens versus benefits (cheap labor) of having Illegal Aliens, lots of etc. (Factors).
Just for the State of California you are talking about (25) Billions USDs per year just for the Education of Illegal Aliens, Health Care for Illegal Aliens, Imprisonment of Illegal Aliens for Violent Crimes (Murder, Rape, Armed Assault, Armed Robbery, Gang Violence, etc.). These Billions USDs per year does NOT include the costs (Billions more) of WIC, Public Housing, etc. obtained with the assistance of Illegal Alien Advocacy Groups at the US as paid for by US Taxpayers (Illegal Aliens know how to evade paying Taxes as advised by Illegal Alien Advocacy Groups located at the US, like the US Taxpayer paid Lawyers of La Raza, M.E.Ch.A, etc.).
So nope, you don't have a "Right" to know, HonorTheVet. Just think about how many Legal US Citizens at the State of California could benefit from 25 Billion USDs each year spent on them instead of being spent on the Education of Illegal Aliens, Health Care for Illegal Aliens, and Imprisonment of Illegal Aliens for Violent Crimes.
I already did most of the Research (including Historical Research) as part of an (Unclassified) Intelligence Summary (not including the Classified Section, Illegal Aliens as a National Security Threat).
Of course you have to ask the question, why is the Democratic Party Suppressing the Information (Researched Facts, that can be easily Researched):
As stated to the Associated Press, August 2009 by President Obama, the Legalization of over 23 Million Illegal Aliens at the US:
Previously, President Obama's April 2009 US (Southern) Border Policy, "US Military will not be used to secure US Borders" as stated to Mexican President, Guadalajara, Mexico.
President Obama's August 2009 US (Northern) Border Policy, "US Military will not be used to secure US Borders" as stated to Canadian Prime Minister.
President Obama's 2010 Executive Order to circumvent US Congress representing the "Will of the People" as Amnesty for Illegal Aliens, as "Only Criminal Undocumented Workers will be deported" (note: It is a Felony Crime for US Citizens to commit Tax Evasion, this was legalized by President Obama ONLY for Illegal Aliens to be exempt from Felony Crime of Tax Evasion).
President Obama 2012 Executive Order again to circumvent US Congress representing the "Will of the People" as Amnesty for the Children of Illegal Aliens. Hint: You deport them with their Illegal Alien parents after briefing them that it was their Parents (Adult Responsibility) NOT the US that got them into their situation; their Illegal Alien children can hate their own Illegal Alien Parents for the rest of their lives. Research (I already did) President Eisenhower's "Operation Wetback" as the Legal Precedent concerning the Legal (per previous US Supreme Court Ruling) deportation "Those Little Frauds" aka "Anchor Babies" and Current US and International Reciprocal Citizenship Laws, Treaties, Agreements, etc. (Why the 14th Amendment does NOT apply to the Children born at the US of Illegal Aliens, previous US Supreme Court Ruling), previous US Laws specifically legalizing the children of Legal Immigrants at the US (Irish, Chinese, Japanese, etc.) but not the children of the current Illegal Aliens, etc..
The above are FACTS (names, dates, etc.).
Kornfed,
Please read the story before you discount the source.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/08/10/670441/ohio-limits-early-voting-hours-in-democratic-counties-expands-in-republican-counties/
They want photo voter IDs because they know that, out of those people who can't conveniently get them, many will vote for Democrats. The poor and elderly are less likely to be able to obtain the IDs that they need, if only because the offices that issue them are not easily accessible. This is a class issue. It reminds me of the "Dewey Defeats Truman" headline that resulted from polling by telephone, a technology that was weighted towards more affluent citizens, who tended to vote Republican.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana
Like I stated before pathetic sad state of Education.
You really need to study some US History, you clearly based on your posts don't even know what your Political Party has done before (Documented History).
Start with your own Political Party History, then Federalists (Republicans), the Popular Party (aka Democrats, Dixiecrats, Second Party), States Rights, Democratic Party Voting Exclusion Laws from 1876 (1877) till (1965) 1968 (Voting Rights), Twenty Sixth Amendment (Republican Party, President Nixon, as 18 year old Suffrage (Voting Rights)), Democratic Party Voter Literacy Laws, President Eisenhower (Republican) 1954 for 18 year Old Voting, Democrat (aka Popular Party) Andrew Jackson, Democratic Party "Jim Crow" Laws, Democratic Party Poll Taxes, Democratic Party President Woodrow Wilson 1913 starts Segregation Nationwide, etc..
Anyone who claims there was voter fraud in Mn is a liar!
Repubs might as well outlaw Bigfoot too while they are at it. He dodesn't exist either! Oh wait, now that I said that the repubs will have more Bigfoot sightings!
It's funny how the republicans are so afraid of the elderly vote when they claim they are not out to put the screws to them and rob them blind and wipe out all the social security and medicare investments they have paid throughout the years but on the other hand they proudly tell the rest of us under age 55 that they fully intend to screw us royal and rob us blind and take away all the years we have faithfully invested into our retirements. I have news for the republican idiots that actually think the rest of us would simply sit back and let them rob us blind while they wipe away the rights of the elderly and any one else they think they can rob of their rights... You mess with our retirement investments and you just may find your party very short lived. The republicans have lost control of their party and have been taken over by these tealibanians. America should not wait until it is too late like Afghanistan did with the Taliban, we need to rid our government of these homegrown terrorists and we need to start with this next election by simply voting out all republicans until they can disinfect their party of these homegrown terrorists and bring honor back to the republican party.
vwterry
Kornfed,
I hold by what I said...if this is going on it should be corrected. It is wrong, and unfair. I am well aware that both sides play these games, and its WRONG. I am sure this is going on in other states the other way around. All of it is unfair and underhanded. Just as it is underhanded to not require ID. Im am no fan of politicians from either party. They are snakes in the grass.
Kornfed,
You say that both sides are playing these games. I would be very interested to read anything you can supply showing Democrat dominated states, counties, cities, towns or villages where anything even close to similar is happening. I've looked and can't find one instance. Things have changed for the worst in the past 3 1/2 years. The Republicans have gone so far right they are reversing themselves on stands they have taken for decades.
The biggest negative effect on legitimate voting is through voter suppression, not voter fraud, and ID laws will not effect that. The fraud cases are primarily registration fraud, usually in cases of paid registration and again ID laws would have minimal effect here too.
Barry-NJ "For most of our nation's history there was no photo ID requirement and the Republic still stood."
For most of our nation's history the polling officials knew the people who were voting in their community or neighborhood. That is no longer the case.
In a well known and documented case Lyndon Johnson used fraud to win a Senate seat in 1948, which he later used to catapult him to the Presidency. And in Chicago, the dead are resurrected every 4 years to vote for the Democratic candidate for President, so voter fraud has always been a problem, and with modern technology, it is far easier now than in the past.
“You could take ideas from the left and the right,” he said. “You could have a better system.” ... That would be the easy thing to do.
But ultimately even though there is no evidence to support the need for the voter id laws, I don't read that they have been repealed on suspended for further review, why is that? Clearly Turzai gave voice to what we all suspected all along that these 'laws' are just an attempt to bend things in favor of a specific candidate; namely Romney.
What about what is going on in OHIO within the Democrat and Republican Couunties?. Rachel Maddow of MSNBC did a wonderful job of breaking that story down for the rest of us to understand. Why is it that republican counties are getting more days to vote than democratic counties? Why are the tie breaker votes with the republican governer?. Why are they trying over and over again to CHEAT, STEAL, BREAK RULES, BUY, and BRIBE their way into the white house. WHY are they being questioned, and arrested for even attempting these things???
Correction: WHY are they NOT being questioned, and arrested for even attempting these things???
Where do you guys live? Because here in NY it is the opposite. They want to extend hours so that DEMOCRATS have more time to vote even though the polls should have closed hours ago.
I think it is a good idea for voter ID. Too many people here tend to vote twice, once on absentee ballots and the other in person.
You could take ideas from the left and the right... isn't that the entire CONCEPT of government!?! What's being done here is voter supression, period.
Unhappy-1583758: Where's any evidence that double voting is happening in NY? Perhaps you should contact the folks that wrote this story and they can do a follow up.
DLEE: http://capitaltonightny.ynn.com/2011/02/wfp-conservatives-continue-double-vote-suit/
Double voting has been going on in NY for years. This just happened last year. Everything about New York's system is screwed up. We need voter ID.
Why do democrats always scream that there is absolutely no evidence of any voter fraud or intimidation. I believe that Illinois and Chicago have had a long histories of voter fraud! (Vote Early, Vote Often... even if you are dead!) The reason that more cases aren't brought out is that the liberal press just won't allow these stories to see the light of day. How about the voter intimidation, on video, of white voters in Philly, and the absolute refusal of the Obama Justice Department to press charges! How about the "motor voter" laws that many democrats have tried to pass and then they want to allow illegal immigrants the "right" to driver's licences? Sounds like an attempt to pad the votes!
Voting is a right to legal citizens of this country. Why is it such a horrible thing to have simple restrictions to verify each persons right to vote? In each state which has tried to ask for identification at the polling there has been a corresponding ability to get a free ID! Don't even try to tell me that every individual in this country, who is here legally, does not have easy access to a government-issued ID, that is a blatant lie! You must have ID to cash a check, buy alcohol and cigarettes, rent an apartment, and many other daily needs. To say that it would be voter suppression to require an ID is just ridiculous!
Dan, they scream it because you refuse to listen to real evidence. Did you read the article? Someone did extensive research and found very little voter fraud. And the fraud they did find, as small as it was, would not influence the outcome of an election nor would it be stopped by voter idd requirements.
Dan, you only hear what you want to.
When I voted in the last presidential election my voting location was at the department of motor vehicles, so if you needed a licence you just got it there. But since I drove there it was not an issue to show my drivers licence. and lets be honest, we know who Romney is for but do we really want to guess what Obama is going to do the next 4 years. He is not laughed at us too long. "The recession is over!' my ass
Unhappy are those extra hours available only to Democrats?
No?
Then your argument is meaningless.
Tomil
There were 234 convictions of voter fraud this year alone in Minnesota with another 120 awaiting their court dates. This voter fraud was just those who didn't claim ignorance which Minnesota doesn't prosecute those who didn't know what they were doing was illegal.
The article lists onl 207 or 208 in the nation. I've got a feeling the statistic a type of voter fraud convictions instead of all convictions.
Frankly True: Those extended hours were only offered in districts where the majority vote was normally Democrat.
So yeah, they were.
It amazes me that one person with a gun and all guns should be ban BUT one case of fraud and it is ok?? What is illegal is illegal, also look through the posts and there are more than one fraud case like in Min.with over 2800 cases, Heck in Chicago they don't even count the cases I bet. I also notice it is only the republicans who want a honest election, so what does that say??
"According to Pennsylvania’s Department of State and the Department of Transportation, as many as 758,000 people, about 9 percent of the state’s 8.2 million registered voters currently don’t have the identification that now will be required at the polling place."
"Even if 90 percent of those voters got the correct identification by Nov. 6, that still could leave 75,800 voters disenfranchised."
"With 146 million registered voters in the United States during that time, those 10 cases represent one out of about every 15 million prospective voters."
Since we agree that voting is the legal right of every citizen, a disproportionate amount of legal citizens will be disenfranchized by states with incumbent republican legislatures. Almost a million legally registered voters reside in single state alone. Where is your outrage for the epidemic violation of legal American voter rights?
This is not voter reform... this is 'stacking the deck'. Republican are all for reforms in areas we don't need. How about Wallstreet, tax loophole, mortgage and consumer protections reform? The American People want working inclusive reforms but all we got was more disenfranchisement from the GOP.
I always hear republicans crying about their constitutional rights but silence when the hand is tipped in their favor. You'd think they'd be concerned when millions of defrauded voters.
But alas... it's the same looney-toon characters rambling about Chicago style politics, non-existent white voter intimidation in Philly, black but not white foodstamps, section-8 , welfare and beer IDs, etc. Guns are not banned either! The arguments to support this practice are a disgrace!
the problem I have with republicans in general is the ignorance they demonstrate when the defend the indefensible. people cant manage their money when the money they have is not even enough.. save for retirement.. spare me... as far a voter suppression.. Lots of poor who cant afford a ID or even a way to get one. Usually carpool to vote. I can only think of one outcome when there is no social safety net for the elderly and corporations have bled us dry with greed..... Soylent Green
there isn't enough time or space to list everything wrong. let's face it:both party's suck. no bill is perfect. we should get rid of the fillibuster. if it came from the republicans than the democrats hate it and vice-versa. i wish we could do away with the parties and just have the "what's best for america plan" no matter who it comes from!! bi-partisan my a**. both sides lie!! we tried 8 years of "bush" and that was not so good, so now we try 8 years of "obama" and see what happens. don't touch my social security/ my medicare/ medicaid. i like many, many, many of you worked way too hard for them. if i was a manager of a team and my approval rating was 12%, i would find another job(congress)
BRIANW52: I f you want to salvage your SS & Medicare you're now voting the Obama/democrats ticket because Paul Ryan, despite having relied on SS in his teens first to survive, then go to school, is hell-bent on taking it away from YOU, no matter you've been paying into it for 30+ years. He's lived off gov't. since his father died, the only job he's ever had has been in D.C.,--he's never put a dime into SS or Medicare, nor paid a dime back.
Brian, not sure of the article you're reading but the one i've just read is about voter disenfranchisement. Not bills, fillibuster, social security, or medicare, etc.
This election is about two things... Nov. 6 we either elect a President that will work for the majority (middle-class) or against the majority. it's that simple. My vote is for re-election. Herman and Eddie Munster are too scary (lol)!
Obama/Biden 2012
Unhappy, they want to extend voting hours in New York so the Democrat and Liberal voters get their chance to cast a vote after standing all day in the welfare lines and of course updating their ever so popular blogs. After all...isn't that their job....professional blogger. LOL. Come on....be fair.
Well We all know that is the ONLY way the REPUBLICANS can win by rigging the elections, BUSH did it before and they are trying to rig it permanently and they wonder why We don't want no REPUBLICAN leading our country. NO SURPRISE HERE! FROM the beginning of our NATION NO ID was required, I don't care what else an ID is needed to do now it has nothing to do with the peoples CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO VOTE.
To Rondell's initial comment:
Sure, this would benefit [the conservative] because the conservative doesn't need illegal votes to win an election, they just need to get enough people to vote to override those illegal votes. You sir are a moron, and unfit to post on these pages because of your bigoted and hateful comments towards people that don't feel the same way you do.
DB in Akron,
Please give a reference to the 234 convictions in MN. I can't find any reference to that.
There was reported when the Recount of the senator race did find about 230+ where convicted Felons were
still in jail or paroled,but they had mystery Absentee Ballots. This Early voting in Ohio, the want to start 3 weeks prior,Personally don't like early voting leads to abusing the system. It's the responsibility of each Voter
to have the knowledge of how to to vote,Not the Dems,Repubs,Unions etc...
DB, post your link.
All searches I have done had the same result. They are still working on cases of voter fraud from 2008. Pray tell how they have skipped over all of those to convict people in 2012 for the same thing?
So please link the article you have pulled your information from.
No voter will be disenfranchised by tough voter ID laws. If you do not have the required ID you cast a provisional ballot and your eligibility is later checked. If you are legal, your vote counts. If not, it does not count. Saying people will be disenfranchised is a bald faced lie.
You need ID to do just about anything in this country!!!! To get a job, to apply for a loan, to fly on a plane, to take a train, to cash a check, to buy alcohol or get into a bar, to buy a pack of cigarettes etc.. etc.. The back of my credit and debit cards are NOT signed they say "see ID" as I want to know that cashiers are paying attention and NOT allowing just anybody to use my card. I spent 24 years working with folks with disabilities and every single one of them had picture ID and had voter registration cards. The cost of getting a picture ID is NOT prohibitive for just about anybody!!!! There are plenty of medical transport companies that will take the seriously disabled anywhere they need to go. People that don't have cars can walk, ride the bus, subway, light rail, cab etc.. etc.. WHO are these people that are being kept from getting ID??? Just doesn't wash in my opinion that anybody in this day and age is unable to get picture ID.
There are more people being disenfranchised by the ID law than there every were voter fraud. If they allowed people to get a photo ID at their voting place then I could see it some of the argument but to require a person to drive 50 miles to get a voter ID is ridiculous. Even there to require a person that is bed fast to go get a voter ID is ludicrous. The only way they have to vote is by absentee ballot and if a photo number is required before the ballot is counted then they are disenfranchised because they have no way to get to a place that could provide them a legal ID.
What the idiots that are beating the drum for photo ID don't realize is that handicapped and sick old people vote for both parties. It appears that the only people they wish to allow to vote are healthy rich people who have no problem with the restrictions they place on people wanting to exercise their given right to vote.
Now to the person that made the claim that many people are voting absentee and at the polls....46,000 New Yorkers were registered to vote in both Florida and New York and in the 2000 election between 400 and 1,000 of these double-registrants voted in both states. Doesn't it seem ironic to you that you blame Democrats where those people would be more inclined to vote Republican since they obviously fit the affluent class of people that have a history of voting Conservative? To do it in the same state would be stupid since it is very easy for them to catch it. Wonder who would have won Florida if those 400 to 1000 votes were disqualified in 2000?
Other investigations revealed similar results elsewhere. The Orlando Sentinel found that 68,000 Florida voters are also registered in Georgia or North Carolina (the only two states it checked), 1,650 of whom voted twice in 2000 or 2002. Wouldn't you say that the majority of those would be Conservative since those states are strongly Conservative since basically well to do people can afford two homes and live in both? Now deduct that number from the 2000 election and see what would happen.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2004/10/people_who_vote_twice.html
To those who claim stopping just one fraudulent vote makes the voter-id law valid, I say that to disenfranchise a single vote is to render the system undemocratic.
The right to vote is the bedrock to a democratic republic. It is more basic than the right to keep and bear arms to a functioning democracy.
We as Americans should strive for NO VOTER FRAUD and it's no inconvenience for people to get a simple ID from the government that gives out all kinds of benefits to people that should show their appreciation to our country and fellow Americans by STOP WHINING !
ID's cost money and you can't always walk to your town hall to get them. I didn't have a license until age 56. The people who want voter Id's don't have much trust in people, maybe it is because of what they would do
And where was Robme? That's right running like a little bitch to France. Oh, and before you bring up Obama, I don't recall a draft being enforced when he was able to serve. So, where was Mittwitt? He supported the war and the draft, and then ran like a punk.
Stop whining? Really?
Voting is the most fundamental right we have. Would you like to drive to the South and tell a 93-year old black woman who was born at home, cannot drive and lives miles away from the RMV that she doesn't have the right to vote? How about someone understands a little bit about life outside of your own little bubble?
...and Honor the Vet: a high school ID isn't valid for voting. There's a list of acceptable ID. And how does signing for the draft give you an ID? There's no photo on a draft card. Plus, GHY1 didn't give a gender or an age. If GHY is 57, for example, then "he" was 18 in 1973 - the year the draft ended.
Yep the GOP & Romney could not possibly win without stifling the majority vote, from everyday Americans because they would never get those votes.
This is just a perfect example of just how desperate and pathetic they truly are. The Repug's need to be put out of office so the majority of Americans have the say again.
Obama/Biden - 2012 Becuase it's the only hope for the middle class!!
It doesn't matter who has the majority of voters as long as they have the electoral votes to win in the electoral college. Are democrats so much holier than republicans that they won't try to vote more than once? I think not. How about sticking your finger in dye like they do in the middle east? It seems to me that it would pass the test for keeping someone from voting twice.
You may call yourself "Rushless", but, I really think you should change your name to "Brainless"! The middle class has shrunk more during the tenure of your savior, Obama, than in any presidential term since the Great Depression! The only answer that Obama has is to blame the 1% (Sounds like Hitler and the Nazis blaming the Jews), socializing our medical system (which Hitler and the Nazis forced Bismark to do in the days before taking full control), bailing out and controlling our auto industry (guess what, Hitler and the Nazis did the same thing!) and having a group of disaffected individuals take to the streets to try to create chaos and to add to the power of the Great Obama (I guess you have to look at Hitler's "Brownshirts" to make a true comparison!). (Just a little hint to the Occupiers, research the fate of the Brownshirts!) By the way, the Nazis were NATIONAL SOCIALISTS, not a little step ahead of Obama and his socialist handlers!
Learn from history, or be bound to repeat it!
Dan - you are a troll! You need to bring up Hitler to make a point? Shame on you.
Dan by your logic Romney by being a mormon would immediately order the death of all Christians as they don't subscribe to the mormon belief. I find it funny but according to their own faith only 256000 will be saved and I don't expect Mittens t be one of them lol
EM how would dipping your finger limit those who vote absentee from voting again in person?
Absentee voting was supposed to be for those who could not vote on election day due to a health limitation (IE in the hospital or homebound) or who were out of town,
It has spread to something else and I don't agree with that...that is where I see the most potential for real intentional fraud and I note that is where the article said it was most prevalent.
But I also accept that voter fraud is highly limited and rare these days.
I never previously thought it a big deal showing a photo ID but if figures quoted in article that 9% of eligible voters don't have them then I can't see justifying shuting that many valid voters out of voting to prevent a handful of people illegally voting. These laws could cause the candidate favored by the majority losing in many cases while fraud probably never would. At least on the national level. Chicago has it's own history.
RUSHLESS: AND--give Obama a blue Congress so he can actually get something done. He's a product of the American Dream; he knows how important it is to keep it alive for our kids & grandchildren!
It all seems a simple matter of economics. There are a couple of choices.
I'll offer a few bucks to hundreds/thousands of folks to vote once, twice, thrice, whatever. And, by the way, I and they will be committing a felony. Takers?
I'll donate a few hundred thousand to some GOP candidates, and 'encourage' them to introduce/support voter ID laws. It's no crime, and I'll stand to make millions for my interest/s. Takers?
Of course, the GOP will argue that there are thousands of welfare recipients/criminals/corrupt Democrat politicians, etc. that go around paying off folks.... or ..... all these fraudulent voters are so industrious and politically active that they will risk fines and/or prison in the belief their vote(s) will shift the balance of power.
The brilliant, ambitious and immoral inner city cheats versus the affluent brokers of influence. Who's been winning that one, so far.
Flat Earth versus a planet. Santa Claus versus Visa. Some want to believe, I suppose.
@rushless
ROTFLMAO!! You think voter ID laws are going to stifle the "majority" vote??? Really? LOL!
I've always said, if you have to use gross exaggeration to make your point, you obviously never had a valid point to begin with.
Well We all know that is the ONLY way the REPUBLICANS can win by rigging the elections, BUSH did it before and they are trying to rig it permanently and they wonder why We don't want no REPUBLICAN leading our country. NO SURPRISE HERE! FROM the beginning of our NATION NO ID was required, I don't care what else an ID is needed to do now it has nothing to do with the peoples CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO VOTE.
Tax dodging and voter suppresion laws......dump all repubs!
So the majority vote only consists of people that would be unable to prove their name? Why are liberals sooo afraid of voters proving they have a right to vote? It looks to me like liberals are about to lose their illegitimate foothold! If you don't like the proposal then lets go old school and require every voter to go to a poll and place their vote, then lets go new school and dip our fingers in purple dye.
Obama/Biden/Pelosi/Reid - 2012 Because it's the only hope for the middle class!!
It must be hope becuase all I have left is the change and damn little of that.
Dee Turner...seriously? Obviously you are not aware or weren't paying attention when Obama and the Liberals controlled BOTH the House and Senate along with the White House. In case you didn't know....House + Senate = Congress. They had free run for over two years, and that's when most of the damage to this country was done. People can cry about Republican filibusters all they want, but in the end they had the votes to do what ever they wanted.
FedUp - Check your facts. The Democrats never had a fillibuster-proof majority in the Senate. They only had the ability to break Republicans' abuse of the ridiculous fillibuster process because two independents were standing with them. That ended in Feb 2010, far short of the two years you claim.
My facts are just fine. Check yours.
Its a made up solution to a nonexistent problem, perpetrated by the Republicans to control the vote. If you can't win an election with ideas, then limit the ability of the opposition to voice their opinion at the polls.
Seems to me the most likely to be affected are the elderly, which is statistically a more reliable Republican block (traditionalists, I guess). If this was really about Republicans controlling the vote, wouldn't they be shooting themselves in the foot by suppressing one of their own voting blocks?
Just remember, the Republicans want to suppress the vote, they want to poison the water, they want people to get sick from bad food, and they want to starve children! "Repeat the big lie enough and people will believe", (paraphrasing Josef Goebels)!
Where do you get the idea that the elderly me included would vote GOP? With the pick of Ryan for VP Romney has just ensured I'll vote for Obama/Biden as I don't want Ryan's $100 voucher program lol
Thanks, GrahamW! You get it! Sometimes I lose faith in the American electorate. Now, please also vote to get a democratic Congress, so our President won't be so hamstrung in his next 4 years!!! Really, thank you. thank you, for understanding what Paul Ryan & Willard want to do to us--I'm 62 myself.
It's hard to believe that the two Republicans honored on Mount Rushmore would support the kind of nonsense perpetrated by what passes for the GOP these days. Amazing when you consider how Lincoln and Roosevelt fought for the principals of fairness to be applied to all Americans while the current crop of Republicans only wants to grant citizenship and economic rights to a pre-selected minority.
@node4
What is really amazing is how easily conned members of both parties are by the utter drivel their own politicains spew.
Case in point from the left in this instance.
Analysis of the resulting comprehensive News21 election fraud database turned up 10 cases of voter impersonation. With 146 million registered voters in the United States during that time, those 10 cases represent one out of about every 15 million prospective voters.
ALEC( American Legion economic council) group of CEO"S Meets twice a year with republican politicians to agree on what laws they can pass that will benefit corporations(Billionaires). These voter suppression laws created in ALEC and repub politicians are using them all across the nation so as to remove the elderly, the young, and the middle class and poor. These groups usually vote Democratic party. This people would be protecting social security, medicare, medicaid, Post Office, student loan interest rates etc. The very programs Corporations want to privatize and raise higher interest rates on, etc. In other words repubs are rigging the election for $$$$. Karl Rove bragged if they can remove 1% of voters in 9 states , repubs can win the election. Tax Dodging and rigging the elections, repubs for a worse tomorrow today!
Vote President Obama/Biden and team America, save your right to vote!!!
Backcountry164 Thank you for a little light at the end of the tunnel. It's sad how far down the page I had to read to find one post/thought that wasn't totally bias towards one party or the other. BOTH PARTIES ARE HORRIBLE. BOTH PARTIES. NOT JUST ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER. BOTH PARTIES ARE DESTROYING THIS COUNTRY. BOTH PARTIES. YES that means Democrats are destroying this country. YES that means Republicans are destroying this country. Mainstream media programs have all these sheeple fighting over which master they want bending them over
This is all very simple, we are heading towards a totalitarian government and so the politicians need control of the electoral process. What you are seeing here are measures that were put in effect in Puerto Rico many years ago. The political parties control the political process and is next to impossible for new parties to develop. The traditional parties control the money and everything related to the process.
Goodbye Democracy!
Someone has already said it. I am much more concerned with voting machine designers like DieBold who openly state that their voting machine design (in Ohio) was to help their own party. It was on Free Speech TV in their program about the 2000 election. They also had a convicted felon helping to design voting machine programs for them!! It's funny how we don't like convicted felons voting but it's OK for them to design the voting machines. The article above shows there is no problem with in person voting fraud. Republicans have no confidence in their party this year and have to resort to finding ways to disenfranchise voters they don't think will vote for them.
@Backcountry64: I stand behind what I said; people with the principals that Lincoln and Roosevelt demonstrated are quickly made to feel unwelcome in the current GOP. I have a lot of respect for most of the Republicans I know, but have lost all respect for the GOP as an entity. Taking away the right to vote of American citizens under false pretenses in order to potentially win an election is despicable.
@node4
Of course you do, you've been utterly blinded by the rhetoric so why wouldn't you?
Funny how liberals keep making this claim and yet never offer any actual examples of an ID law preventing a single person from voting. Isn't that the argument you use against its implementation? There are few examples of fraud? Likewise there are even fewer examples of suppression. Don't you even ask for proof before you parrot what you've been told?
@Backcountry164: pay attention; there are numerous laws and proposed laws in the works to make unreasonable requirements for senior, poor, and student voters that normally can easily register or resolve paperwork issues on election day. You seem to be the one who can't see what is front of him .. but you just keep rolling out those talking points and practiced questions you get via some GOP email list. I'm sure somebody is dumb enough to fall for them - I'm not.
@node4
Pay attention to what exactly? Once again you've provided NOTHING, NADA, ZERO to back up your claims. Sorry if I'm not some obedient fool who is just going to take the work of someone as biased as you. Just because you're dumb enough to fall for and repeat "those talking points and practiced questions you get via some" liberal "email list", don't assume that I will be.
And btw, I'm not GOP and if I received anything from them in the mail I'd use it as fire starter without wasting my time reading whatever drivel they put out. What you fail to accept is that your Democratic party is every bit as full of @!$%# as are the Republicans. bahhhh, bahhhhhh
The pathetic sad state of Education. (They really NEED to have High School Civics Courses again before the Teens start Voting so they at least know something about US Voting, US Politics, etc..).
Hints: node4 go research what Political Party President FDR (Franklin Delano Roosevelt) was. So sure dis (disrespect a former US President) of the Democratic Party (there I spoonfed you, someone else will change your diapers (NOT)) like President FDR.
Also go research: the US Electoral College and History of the US Electoral College (US Congressional Records, Arguments of the Founding Fathers to Establish the Electoral College); Your "Popular Vote" Versus Electoral College Votes; Arguments of Founding Fathers AGAINST a Democracy and for a Constitutional Republic of America.
David,
Theodore Roosevelt was a Republican and he's the one on Mount Rushmore. Not FDR, the Democrat.
@david-475776: it's Theodore Roosevelt who is honored on Mt. Rushmore .. not FDR. And it doesn't take a lot of research to find that piece of information out. I won't be wasting my time or bandwidth on any of your other non-relevant drivel.
@Backcountry164: what exactly am I, or anyone else for that matter, under obligation to prove? You continue to make some nonsense argument, that is beyond my poor little mind to discern. All political parties do things that are dubious value, but I draw the line at the actions of the GOP in their orchestrated campaign to remove legitimate voters from the rolls. The article these comments are linked to reinforces multiple other stories and papers penned by experts (election experts - not bloggers with a political agenda) in the last 3 years, which is when this GOP effort really started to gather momentum.
Katy M, node4
Ok, I take my responsibility for my mistake.
However, still:
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana
Like I stated before pathetic sad state of Education.
You really need to study some US History, you clearly based on your posts don't even know what your Political Party has done before (Documented History).
Start with your own Political Party History, then Federalists (Republicans), the Popular Party (aka Democrats, Dixiecrats, Second Party), States Rights, Democratic Party Voting Exclusion Laws from 1876 (1877) till (1965) 1968 (Voting Rights), Twenty Sixth Amendment (Republican Party, President Nixon, as 18 year old Suffrage (Voting Rights)), Democratic Party Voter Literacy Laws, President Eisenhower (Republican) 1954 for 18 year Old Voting, Democrat (aka Popular Party) Andrew Jackson, Democratic Party "Jim Crow" Laws, Democratic Party Poll Taxes, Democratic Party President Woodrow Wilson 1913 starts Segregation (Laws) Nationwide, etc..
As well as the rest of my post at #5.15:
Also go research: the US Electoral College and History of the US Electoral College (US Congressional Records, Arguments of the Founding Fathers to Establish the Electoral College); Your "Popular Vote" Versus Electoral College Votes; Arguments of Founding Fathers AGAINST a Democracy and for a Constitutional Republic of America.
*plonk*
@node4
Under obligation? Not at all. Of course if you want people to actually believe you when you say " numerous laws and proposed laws" you might include an example or source. Wait...let me guess, they are too numerous to mention...even one. LOL!
So yeah, you are definitely under no obligation to back up anything you say with any fact whatsoever. Just don't be surprised when people don't take you seriously. After all, why would anyone when you can't seem to provide a single example of something you claim is practically commonplace.
@Backcountry164: you're obviously under the illusion that I am concerned about influencing people such as yourself with preconceived opinions on this matter; let me clarify - I am not. To be clear, I don't know how I could care less.
Regarding examples: did you bother to read the article? I did, as well as watched multiple news programs by major networks over the last few years, see several articles a month on this subject on major news outlet (that I normally ignore), But for examples, every hear of the state of Florida? How about Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, etc. - Hey, how about this search engine thing, I heard that can be useful in situations like this. For me, I live in a state where the GOP pushes multiple bills through the legislature every session that are (obvious) politically motivated "voter ID" laws. They have spent millions of the taxpayer's dollars to solve a non-existent problem and frankly I'm more than a little annoyed about it. And now, I'm also annoyed at your childish questions from the Karl Rove playbook on social media interaction. I'm tired of playing and if you want to; guess if you want to continue, you'll have to do it with yourself.
grep "Backcountry164" $1 >> /dev/null;
Translation- "I have no intention of backing up my claims of voter suppresion by providing even a single source because I can't"
Thought so. Have a nice day.
What's the big deal? How are the so called people that will be disenfranchised cashing welfare checks, Social security checks, picking up medication from a pharmacy, buying liquor or cigarettes? you need to do all of those things with an ID, voting should be no different.
The big deal is the reason given for enacting these laws ... because of rampant voter fraud. It simply doesn't exist. The people pushing these laws know this and they also know which voting groups it will impact the most ... the ones voting against them.
It's a blatant attempt to rig an election. If you don't object to this now just remember, the next time someone tries a stunt like this it might not favor the candidate you want to vote for.
Jeni
My mother would fall into this category. Her SS was direct deposit, she doesn't drive, buy liqueur, smoke, fly, or have a birth certificate. The elderly have issues getting a birth certificate. In my mother's case those records simply don't exist. I know, we tried.
Also, if one is older IDs are not necessary. I have a head of very gray hair. Haven't been carded in years. In fact, the only times I ever have to pull out my ID is when I fly. You must remember, not every citizen lives the same type of life as you.
I find it interesting that the states that have implemented these laws have pretty much waited until right before the election. Effectively giving those who have to jump through hoops little time to navigate the governmental red tape necessary. If this were really a problem, why wait until now to address it. The entire scheme smells.
APPARENTLY YOU TEAGAGGER MORON LIVE IN A RUSH LIMPD!CK WORSHIPPING WORLD LET ME SPELL IT OUT AGAIN.
I fill prescriptions monthly. The 5 or 6 pharmacist call me by my first name. I show jacksh!t. I go into the bank or drive up and write a for cash only with no ID. If I nod at the President or two vice presidents they come out of their office to see what I need. When I voted last Tues. They pulled the KS voter ID Bullsh!t on me and I shut the line down 5 minutes while everyone at the check in table got out their ID. We can shut this down.
You don't deserve thr right to vote without a DD-214 Three years military service complete.
I went about half my driving life with no photo on the license.
The previous 2 cases of voter fraud found in Kansas was legal residents. First was a republican farmer trying to vote in two different counties, because he owned land in both counties. The other was a Democratic woman, that voted absentee, then tried to vote in person. These are the only two resent cases in Kansas, and was found by a Democratic Attorney General.
PHOTO ID DRIVERS LICENSE'S STARTED
Michigan 1980, New York 1984, Illinois 1977,
THEY COVERED THAT LOOP HOLE ALSO IN KANSAS. If you vote by mail in Kansas you must identify what photo ID you have and write the serial number on your voter form. This again disenfranchises these same elderly voters. I am sick and tired of those brainless morons stating you need a photo ID to open bank accounts, buy beer and get on a plane or train. These people have to be pushed in wheel chairs to get some time outside. There are some that fought in the Battle of the Bulge, Hit the beaches of Normandy, Survived 25 missions over Germany,or hit the beaches of Guadalcanal, or Iwo Jima. They would be more than glad to show an ID for a beer. What a joke. They had IDs at one time all they needed to survive. Dog tags and a rifle. They opened bank accounts and sent their kids to school before drivers licenses even had a photo, they voted then. Some of these voters were even recycled into the Korean War, and Pork Chop Hill. Some are even from Vietnam. The people than are for these law, shove your children into combat, and their brats never get near a recruiting station. These people that promote voter ID laws are the one that would strip your health care, and wage protection laws. That is exactly why they want ID Laws. Less to buck the system when they come after your other rights.
I'm so tired of your stupid argument. Just for the sake of making you look foolish, lets use a woman named Julia, remember Julia? In this case she is 63 years old. Every income source she has is direct deposited in her account, the same account she has had for 25 years. Everyone at the bank knows her, she has never had to show an ID. She has used the same Pharmacy for 20 years, has never had to show an ID. She doesn't drink or smoke but if she did, who's going to card a 63 year old. But here's the real kicker, due to her failing vision she had to give up driving a couple of years ago. She now takes the bus or has a friend drive her when they are available. Her license has expired. She has always voted at the elementary school 2 blocks from her home, 22 years now, they know her by name. Julia lives in a small town in Wisconsin, there is no DMV office in her county, the closest is 35 miles away. Even though Julia has voted in the same place for 22 years and they know her by name she won't be able to vote unless she goes to the DMV 35 miles away to get an ID. Thankfully the Wisconsin Voter ID law was struck down as unconstitutional so Julia can still vote where she always has without a Republican voter suppression ID card.
People, there is still at least a full 2 MONTHS BEFORE THE ELECTION. If you don't have ID, start getting it now!
Only those who wait until the last minute are the ones who will be complaining the most.
Well, Jeni from Alexandria: that should help you understand most poor folks aren't, in fact, buying those items!
Have you ever tried to get a copy of your birthday, I had to get one for my sister and it took more then 6 weeks to get it why did they wait tell the last minute to change the laws, they had four years in between. I really think if you check the states that are doing this has Republicans in charge and this is just to surpress the vote. I don't know why you can't see that. Between this and the redistricting they have done should tell you something.We want to push democracy all over the world where is ours?
The only time I have had to show my ID for anything is when a clerk actually looks at my Credit Card and sees "see photo Id" in the signature line. The problem with Pennsylvania's law is that it was enacted just months before a major election, it has not notified anyone as to what IDs are acceptable (and there are more than one..look it up on the internet..that is the only way you will know). They also haven't notified registered voters where to get a photo ID and what is required (you have to have the internet to find out and know where to look). Now one of those requirements is a raised seal birth certificate. Well if you were adopted you never had one with your name on it which means you need to have adoption papers as well (my Mom never had hers as they were destroyed in a flood and after 90 years not easily obtained)). And if you are a woman you not only need your birth certificate you need your marriage certificate as well..and if you ever divorced and remarried you need those documents as well. Have you any idea how long that would take and how much that would cost. There just is not enough time (especially if you are a senior... so many gave up their drivers licenses ... years ago.. as my Mom did) to locate and get all of those documents. Although I am generally against this law (right now they require your registration card and a signature which must match what is on file) if they must have one they should have given the voting public at least a year to get notification and to get the documents needed. As of now (under 100 days before the election) no one has been notified of the requirements so anyone who needs all the documents (including utility bills in their name..what married woman has that) will not have time to get them. This is definitely voter suppresion for a specific election.
Jeni, ever hear of direct deposit?. Suer all elderly in old folks homes run out to the liquor store and have to show id for cigs and booze...duh!!!...Jen why don't repubs foot the total bill for having to get id for everyone on their time while you are at it? Millions spent for nothing....Analysis of the resulting comprehensive News21 election fraud database turned up 10 cases of voter impersonation. With 146 million registered voters in the United States during that time, those 10 cases represent one out of about every 15 million prospective voters.
Well We all know that is the ONLY way the REPUBLICANS can win by rigging the elections, BUSH did it before and they are trying to rig it permanently and they wonder why We don't want no REPUBLICAN leading our country. NO SURPRISE HERE! FROM the beginning of our NATION NO ID was required, I don't care what else an ID is needed to do now it has nothing to do with the peoples CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO VOTE.
Please. State agencies can barely handle a handful of requests in a timely manner. To process hundreds of thousands in two months will never happen. Maybe if a few years they can get their right to vote back.
Not everyone was born in a hospital. Many older farmers that vote couldn't get an ID even if they wanted to.
a lot of people here are acting like the elderly should have it easy getting an id and therefore if they can't vote, it's their problem. it's not that easy! my mother whom i care for never had any id. she never drove because she was disabled at an early age. my father got out of the military (WWII) b/4 they got married so not military id. her social security # was for years just an extension of my dad's. THAT'S the way they used to do it. when my dad died and i needed a handicap parking permit for her, i had to get her a california state id. now, california as i'm sure all you right wing zealots out there will note, is a very liberal state. i brought in her birth certificate because she and my dad always kept good records and after 85 yrs thank god nothing horrendous had happen to them that might have destroyed their paperwork. But! it wasn't good enough! i had to go back home and hunt down their marriage license! now, just by the grace of God i found it otherwise my mother would have been deemed a non person by the state of California. it's ridiculous! our parents and grandparents did not grow up in the information age where you can push a button and find out your whole life on the internet. my mother is one of the lucky ones because she has someone who takes care of her needs. not everyone does. and by the way, to assume just because someone is old and infirm that they wouldn't be voting anyway, is IGNORANT!! my mom may not be able to walk, but she can still think quite clearly, thank you and she is appalled at what she sees going on today AND for the first time in more than 60 years she's going to vote democrat! yes, she uses an absentee ballot. but, you know, if they didn't allow that, you bet i'd push her down to the nearest polling place and let her vote. it might take her awhile because she can't really hold a pen, but we'd figure it out. or maybe that will be the right's next ploy, if you're disabled you shouldn't be allowed to vote because someone has to help you. right? that could cause fraud. how about if you're blind you shouldn't be able to vote, because you can't see the ballots. or maybe if you're deaf you can't hear the crap running on tv, so you don't know the issues. or maybe if you're poor you must be stupid so you don't have the intelligence to vote. i'm sure we could come up with all kinds of stupid ideas to keep people from voting.
what the people in the states where our voting privileges are being assaulted need to do, is organize and if necessary go door to door making sure people who are eligible to vote have the right id so they can vote if they choose and if they do, help them get to the polling places. this is not the time for the independents and democrats to get lazy. the radical right will take this election away from us any way they can. don't forget what mitch mcconnell said at the very beginning of president obama's term.
'the sole purpose of the republican party will be to make sure this president is a one-term president.' they have done everything they could to make that come true.
for two years the republicans have been in control of the house and they have done nothing except try to push bills that will take away women's rights, give tax breaks to the wealthy and waste time pursuing eric holder over fast and furious which in the long run will be found out to be a ruse. in pennsylvania they tried to pass legislation that would lower the working age to 14 and at the same time they're gutting education all over the united states so our children will not have the ability to compete in the future. they have pushed to give big business a stronger hold on this country while voting down every JOBS bill put to them. so, i say to the republican party the same thing they said to obama in 2010. WHERE ARE THE JOBS? maybe they should be more concerned about that than non existent voter fraud.
If elderly people, minorities etc.. really wanted to vote so badly they should be looking for resources to help them get to a DMV to get an ID. You'd think that people on SS, SSI would have worked at some point in their life, had ID and a birth certificate etc.... I know that in 2014 I will have to show my birth certificate and my marriage license to renew my drivers license I think I will have planned well in advance to have those things handy before I go to renew. We all know we have Presidential elections every 4 years. Also just finished helping a disabled person on SS that I am a rep payee for get a birth certificate and guess what?? He didn't remember his moms maiden name and some other vital info but social security had that info and we were able to get the birth certificate. It's no tthat difficul tif you put in the time and effort. I don't know about the entire country but in OR you go to the DMV they issue you a temporary drivers license or ID card and your permanent one comes within a week to 10 days. IF other states takes weeks on end then folks might wan tto start complaining to the powers that be and try to get changes made. For every excuse there is a way to get things done if you really want to!!!! Ridiculous to blame it on one party or another as the yare BOTH equally screwed up!!! Fraud does happen occasionally, if the law says you need ID and you really want to vote stop making excuses and get it done!!!
It is just curious, to say the least, WHY the liberals are so against taking every measure possible to assure an honest election. Afraid of losing since the cracks might be sealed? You people have the nerve to say Reps. want to stifle voters, after all of the phoney registrations and intimidating in the last Presidential election done on Obama's behalf?????? Oh, but you all are so concerned for the elderly, blah, blah, blah. Well how about YOU volunteer your time and offer transportation to wherever they may need to go, and/or help in getting any documentation they may need to gather. Who do you think you're kidding with all your altruistic reasons why there shouldn't be picture ID required to vote ? I'll bet ACORN (or whatever they're called now) makes house calls. But they'd probably would have to swear allegiance to Obama first, otherwise granny is on her own.
Typical left wing BS that some how stricter Voter identification requirements will argument disenfranchises minorities , students and the aged is a ridiculous argument. Anyone in this country that can not figure out how to get a legal photo id is way too stupid to ever be given the right to exercise their vote.
There is more vote fraud than what is reported, because there are places where it is the norm. Anyone can vote as anyone else because the election judges are part of the fraud. In these places, they won't care if IDs are required or not. This ID thing is a useless exercise.
The only thing wrong with the voting system in my opinion, is the way votes are counted! Is the lack of voter ID at the polls the real issue? What about the absentee ballot? A much bigger threat I'd argue!
But all of the discussion on this remains fruitless - How many Americans are really guided by evidence-based findings!? Ignorance, blind emotionalism and politics at its' worst, are driving the conversations of those who are in support of this ridiculous law!!
it's the GOP that's behind all this...they are trying to make it harder for the people that would vote for Obama in November...they are so sacred that they have to do this to try to win...it's so sad...
GOP politicians posses an uncanny ability to see election fraud where there is none, and then pass legislation to address that nonexistent fraud. One could almost believe that the Republicans were trying to manipulate the electoral process to gain some advantage on election day.
It's probably just coincidental that their anti-fraud legislation disenfranchises millions of American voters, some of whom may disagree with the radical right-wing agenda of the GOP.
This isn't your father's Republican Party!
All this is to cover up their own staeling of votes. Ohio has more registered democrats than republicans and is a left leaning state where it counts in the cities. However in the last three presidential elections 1 under democrats and two under Republicans it seemed the other way around on the republican side and just about right under the democrats. Then there is the 200o and 2004 repbulican case where all of the votes were sent to the website that "lost" the whitehouse emails then sent back to the districts??? All of a sudden 18% of democrat black some how voted for Bush when you could not find anyone who said they had voted for him!
Thankyou Breadex for exposing exaclty how Dubya rigged the election :) He grasped at straws to stay in power and had a hell of a lot of votes thrown out with the help of the supreme court to ensure it. The only reason the GOP wants this is because it costs money to get ID and their idea is that the poor won't be able to afford it so their GOP voters can have a greater impact.
Why not do the same as Europe where photo ID is compulsory but is provided free to citizens?
That's the right way to go. Stop states from charging for photo ID and then require it to be shown when voting etc.
This is the best idea. If the pubs think an ID is important for all this non-existent voter fraud, then provide that precious id free of charge! Put your money where your mouth is, you paranoid pubs! But that would defeat your purpose, wouldn't it. You really don't want the poor and disenfranchised to vote, because you KNOW that they won't be voting for your guy. Paranoids pushing voter id = scum.
Every voter over 40 had better vote for Obama, because Paul Ryan the anti-Christ is after us all.
@#8.3 well a good socialist always has their papers ready and in order! so you think any one from any where should be allowed to vote in our elections, just walk in say you are so and so and cast a vote, you are an Idiot. if 28000 people in one state that were dead voted then how many living that never voted are voting? a ID is not that big of a thing if you don't have a drivers licence for a few bucks you can get a state ID card that should be good for 4 to 6 years. I have 4 different legal photo IDs the only one I had to pay for was the drivers license, I really wish you Paranoid schizophrenics would set up your own network. how in the hell do you people collect food stamps don't they ask for ID?
Paul Ryan is a good man Dee! and personally I believe if you are not capable of acquiring a ID you probably should not be voting.
Analysis of the resulting comprehensive News21 election fraud database turned up 10 cases of voter impersonation. With 146 million registered voters in the United States during that time, those 10 cases represent one out of about every 15 million prospective voters.
So any elderly person born outside of a hospital that never needed an ID for anything should be denied the right to vote?
When you paint with a broad black and white brush, you often cover over everything with an uneven application.
Denied the right to vote? No.
Get an ID? Yes
I or someone like me would gladly drive her to get one.
ID is something every citizens NEEDS. The state should not have to give you an ID for free, There are expenses for employees to make them and for the materials. IF states started providing ID free of charge then many would be bitching about the waste of money and complaining that those needing the service free were freeloaders etc.. etc.. The costs of an ID card are NOT that prohibitive for most people. States however shouldn't charge as much as they do and perhaps they should discount for seniors. All of you people complaing about people being disenfranchised, getting "cheated" out of being able to vote because they don't have ID etc.. WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT BESIDES BITCHING ON THE INTERNET??? Are ANY OF YOU offering up your time and assistance to help people get the necessary documents and helping with rides to the DMV etc..???? IF NOT then maybe it's time to put your money and your time whre your mouth is or stfup!!!!
Got something to hide? Show your photo ID, or go home. Very simple. And, you idiots, stop the Democrat talking points. So very tired.
You cannot walk down the street in America today without one. Therfore this is just intimidation. In the south the democratic piece of the pie is increasing and they want to intimidate those who vote that way because they are losers.
And your Republican talking points lack facts and intelligence. But speaking of something to hide, where is your Presidential candidate's tax records? You know, the ones that show Willard not paying any taxes for at least a decade.
@1citizen........... Where is the proof of your claim of failure to pay income taxes by Romney? I thought all you liberal democrats preached innocence until proven guilty. It seems to me that you should be coming up with the evidence to prove your point.
This isn't about talking points. This is about a waste of time, money, and taxpayer resources. Perhaps you didn't read the article. Someone did extensive research and found there is no justification for the law. Did you read that or ponder upon it? Doesn't evidence make any impact on you?
There is no justification for the law. If you think there is, please supply some real evidence.
And Blamo - the got something to hide argument is weak. Based on that, let's have the police search your car and house. Of course you would allow it, because you have nothing to hide!
This is how it's always been " one person one vote". You can't be registered in more than ONE place.
Their fore You only have one vote. Thank you, Thank you,..... Thank you .
Blamo: I'd defend your right to write whatever you choose, but may I also remind you you've landed on a liberal-themed website? If you're tired of democratic principles, you have other options for reading and commentary.
If you just really enjoy swimming against the tide, fine, but don't whine about it.
A ID card will not sway the vote, but it will help keep it accurate, and that works for both sides makes good sense.
I would settle for a fingerprint on the voter registration card if they make it so you cant forge it. then just print the ballot with theprint. and compare it.
More proof of repubs trying to rig the elections fake fraud.....
The federal government demands that nude snapshots of travelers in airports be taken on a whim in the name of 'national security'. No evidence. They pat down babies and restrain parents and call it 'protecting our freedoms'. No evidence. But overwhelmingly the Democrat leadership wails at the prospect of protecting the validity of our votes - a determination in this election that reflects that half the nation is seething against the other, but somehow producing a voter ID document with your clothes on is unreasonable. This election isn't about winning, it's about whether the country will survive. It easily falls under that broad heading called national security.
you rightwingers just can not or will not see things for what they really are. you have your own people saying exactly what it is (voter supression) plain and simple. I mean its every republican held state what more does anyone with a half of brain can see what the hell is going on its not rocket science ya know. the problem with the right is that they have been so brainwashed and racist that they refuse to even look at anything in another way then what thier rightwing party says you people are a bunch of brainwashed hypocrits. I can`t wait til all you idiots go join the biggest racist f@#@##$ idiot newt on your new colony on the moon cus thats where 90% of you rightwinged idiots heads have been for the last 32 yrs anyway.
alboyano - Namecalling is not a debate, it's a tantrum. Information and varied perspective in politics is not automatic to rightwing or leftwing. Discussion and differing opinion is not by default overtly contentious. A tantrum thrown over information you may not agree with is not comment, it's a foot-stomping, leg-kicking, shrill, pouting cry demanding that you get your way. Adults know that. Little children do not.
How many frauds haven't been caught? What's the problem with sealing up all the cracks, or at least doing everything possible to do that. I know, Obama would probably lose his OTHER "dedicated" base, ACORN, (now operating under a new name...like THAT makes a difference?), dead people, cartoon characters, illegals....and let's not forget that one guy who has a dozen clones, all with different fathers...
For every liberal sheople that believes the BS the biased media puts out there, why don't you develope a brain. Oh I forgot, it's scientifically proven they use the wrong side of their brain for analytical thinking therefore they can't do it properly. (check research) If Romney hadn't been paying his taxes, don't you simpletons think it would have been proven by now. I KNOW the IRS and the tax structure and I KNOW they would never allow him to get away with not paying. Actually, the wealthy have a far greater chance of audits than the average person like myself. So Please, stop with the lies and completely unproveable innuendos, just like the BS in the "murder" ad on tv. The man got a buy out, meaning money!!! His wife had insurance at the time of his layoff and it was years AFTER Romney left Bain. Also, while extremely sad, her illness came 5 years AFTER the layoff. How on earth would this be Romney murdering her?!! Another PROVEABLE liberal lie. Sad. When facts don't go with you, you lie.
Then all Robme has to do to prove Reid wrong is to produce his taxes. You say it's unproveable innuendo? It's very proveable isn't it, just show your taxes. The teatards made Obama show his birth certificate just shut you people up, now it's Mittwitt's turn to show us his tax returns.
And speaking of Bain, you know the company where Mittens says he got all his great business experience that will help him destroy...ur...I mean run the country, is now suddenly off the table for discussion. How many times did he leave Bain? First it was 1999, then left retroactively in 1999 (ahaha), now he stayed through 2002? Hard to keep the lies straight isn't. Yes it is sad when facts don't go with your lies. I also love Mittwitt's proposal to the Obama Campaign...lets talk about issues that I want to talk about, please stop bitch slapping me about my taxes and Bain, you're killing us. Sorry Mittens, it's not so easy to run away from your past as it was to run away from Vietnam.
I guess my question is simple. If a id was not required how do we know who voted within the law in the past? It makes no sense to me you need a id for just about everything, why not voting? The poor I am sure need id to get welfare. This country is messed up in more ways than one.
My father in-law is 92 years old, served in the South Pacific during WW2. Being responsible, he gave up his Drivers license years ago. Do you realize how much sacrifice he has made during his life serving this country and the likes of you? If it wasn't for the men like him you would not have a right to vote or even express your opinion. I think he has earned his right to vote, and the men who died did not do so to disenfranchise voting in this country.
Jimmy,
As I stated above, I'm 61. I have very gray hair. The only time I have had to pull out my ID in the past 10 years or so was to get on a plane. It's very easy to exist without a photo ID. Most especially for older citizens as well as those people who don't travel.
Yes, there was a time when you needed one to write checks but with the advent of ATMs and debit cards, not so much any more.
And none of you want to vote by absentee ballot? Because you know, that's all it will take. You won't have to show ID then at a polling place.
Unhappy (numerics): You've just proved why these voter ID laws are not really about identifying voters, but disenfranchising them. None of these voter suppression laws do anything about the fraud that actually exists--vote by mail fraud.
I'm sorry you're unhappy. I just bought a Vitamix blender (made in the USA!) & am much happier now that I'm blending raw fruits & veggies and eating healthier. No more constipation--just an idea that might help.
Drivers licenses are not the only form of ID and even if you give up your privilege to drive you have other options, most states punch your drivers license and give it bock to you its still a valid ID, then their is a state ID card, you should have one anyways just in case and with your personal request on it (like Donor) you are talking pennies, and they are good for up to 8 years depending on your state. and the VA gives picture ID to vets.
@Pete no one is talking about disenfranchising voting just eliminating fraud. there is a difference and its for every ones good not just some. besides if we are going to go socialist then we need to get used to carrying proper papers you know ID, travel vouchers, work pass, stuff like that.
Pete First off I want to thank your Father in law for serving for our great country. I to am a Veteran as well as my 89 yr old Father in law. Being military veterans we both have Government issued VA medical id cards. I would think and i may be wrong but has he ever used the VA. Most WWII and Korean vets I know use the VA,because its all they can afford. If he has then he has a VA ID card . If not they are so easy to get if he is a vet and they are FREE. They don't let just anyone in the VA, you must show PROOF.
State after state repubs are removing legit voters from voter rolls, then they have to prove they are eligible at an expensive cost. This is nothing but rigging the election and ANYONE pro voter suppression law knows it. Repubs want the elderly off voter rolls so they can privatize Soc sec. They know Elders are smart enough to vote to keep it rock solid against their voter suppression laws. VOTE NO TO REPUBS. Stop them from enacting voter suppression laws.
Vote Obama/Biden 2012 save your right to vote!
Dee: That's only in your area. It is about identifying voters. Voter fraud usually occurs by someone voting twice. In most cases, absentee ballots have to be recieved up to a week BEFORE the election day. Voter fraud usually occurs in my area when people are signing in at the polls. How do you know if it is their signature, without ID?
I'm sorry you have constipation. Nice that you are starting to eat healthier as well. You must have really needed the blender!
Jim Crow rides again...
You have a problem with facts it seems thats all this is.
You don't know what Jim Crow is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EM employee: Actually, um, MCJ is correct. Part of Jim Crow were laws called 'poll tax' legislation--requiring individuals who were black to pay anywhere from $10. to $50. to vote.
These voter ID laws arise from the exact same ideology.
So Dee you are saying only white people need proof of identity, because only white people can afford it. are you making this up as you go, there is no similarity to Jim Crow in any of this. go back to school.
Its common sense to have some form of ID.
Jim Crow laws came from Southern Democrats...
dosn`t matter where it came from idiot its wrong and it was put to rest along time ago and if you can`t see whats going on its cus you don`t want to i bet if it was something that supressed the republican vote you`ed be all over it crying foul like you hypocrits always do.
Dee: How country are you? Have you ever been to a city? "Everywhere" is where they require ID.
You need proper id to board an airplane, renew your license and a myriad of other functions. There is plenty of time for people to secure the required id, so stop sniveling.
Thing is they cost and if the states want people to have them they should get them free. It will make little difference anyway as most have them already but it is haveing a nice effect as we are seeing many many Democrats who will now vote just beacause they are being threatened. The one case of the woman above who voted by mail then went to vote at her precint is not unusual. On the phones we get a lot of people who think they have to vote in person in order to validate their mail in.
baliman: If you have enough $$$$$ for Bali, or just enough to even dream of Bali, you are obviously clueless as to how hard it will be for many poor and elderly folks to obtain IDs.
Anyway, this point's been made several times now. Would you care to contribute something new?--or do you simply like being mean?
ID for rebubs only required...Brand an R on their foreheads for rigging elections.
I get involved in things so I have 4 legal forms of ID the only one that cost me money (and not much) is my drivers license. how do these people function without one, I have to use mine all the time, sometimes to cash a check or use a credit card/debit card they want two, maybe these people should not be voting if they don't possess the faculties to get a ID card then they are not smart enough to vote. if they go get one then it shows they are at least trying.
You want free ID? move to North Korea they have free ID. But don't get caught without it.
For all those screaming it cost too much to get ID, I call Bull---t!! Sure is funny they have ID to apply for their welfare benefits, cash their checks, drive, etc. This has NOTHING to do with "keeping minorities down" and more to do with not allowing dead people, dogs, illegals etc to vote because it's a proven fact that voter fraud benefits one party, the Dumocrats!!
As a philosopher once said (paraphrased), Democracy will cease to exist when people realize they can vote themselves free benefits. Exactly!! We have more lazy mooches voting themselves benefits that the rest of us cannot work enough to support. I know most liberals have no morals or read the Bible but my Bible tells me that a man that doesn't work shouldn't eat the fruits of others labors or be a trouble maker since he isn't working. (paraphrased once again) This applies to all those able bodied people who CHOOSE not to work but can sure show up at political rallies even those hundreds or thousands of miles from their homes. HHMMMMM!! how did they afford that on welfare?? Oh, I forget I'm not supposed to point that out. But the point is that the people without the ID are voting themselves benefits thru fraud. That's simply NOT right.
Don't buy beer!
Use the money for your ID instead.
So, what I'm hearing is, "we've never checked IDs before, and, yeah, we haven't found any cases of fraud".
What are the odds that you'd find a case of fraud when you aren't even checking? There may have been a couple of cases, there may have been thousands. Without ever checking, you'd never know.
Frankly, it seems so obvious to check. I get ID checked for so many things, why wouldn't you check my ID for something so important as voting?
If there is it is because of the voting places. In some states you have to confirm your identity in order to be issued a permit to vote. Along with that you are issued a code to present to the voting place along with idetifiable information. They know there is no fraud to speak of as they know thier systems work. This is just a bunch of Bull from the right. They dont get the votes because they do not represent Americans just the rich.
Dunno where you live, breadex, but I've never been issued any "code" to present at voting. In my town, we more of less just showed up and voted. I don't think they ever checked my registration... or if they did, they just glanced at it and didn't do any comparison in their database.
Whether you've noticed--or not--you're given a number, and that number goes with your vote so a check can be made later if deemed necessary.
Voter IDs have never been deemed necessary because there's very little voter fraud and most people wouldn't sign onto a conspiracy to defraud--why don't you reread the article before commenting??
enemyplanet: Because voting is a highly cherished right for all citizens over 18, and there's no real reason to check--as the article plainly states.
If we're going to impinge on that right, we'd better be certain there's a d---ed good reason for it, and do it with infinite care.
And yet--for all the fuss here about people wanting voter IDs--we can only muster 55% of the vote even for a presidential election, so probably half of you or more never bother to vote in primaries, where who gets to run at all is decided.
You know what? How about we start a law saying you don't get to comment on this issue if you've ever skipped voting when you had a right to do so? My guess that would shut up 95% of you.
I cant believe you people first you accuse the right of rigging elections, then you condemn them for trying to make sure they are honest, only a liberal can think that twisted, you are a embarrassment to the honest Democrats.
Dee: That might work if you are assigned a code when you vote. Not all places give codes to go along with the votes. Some places you just sign in and vote. Which is why voter ID"S are important.
I'm confused. How is giving you a number at the time you vote going to help? Or assigning a number to your name if you don't need to know what your number is? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.
I think voter ID laws are a good idea. In fact they should be mandatory.
However, I think putting them in now is a really bad idea. Its too close to the Election. It should happen right after this Nov. Election, so people and the government have 4 years to prepare. And it should be cheap and easy ID to get for everyone..
There needs to be a watchdog to make sure the system isn't used to exclude eligible voters. And there needs to be a system to help people verify themselves right up to, and on, election day. For the people who lose their ID or whatever. And there should be help for poor people if they cant pay anything. Even a homeless citizen should be able to vote.
A voter ID system seems like a wise thing to have in place. But it should be enacted in the right way. The lack of evidence shows theres no urgent need to bring it in now. And the fact a lot of people wouldnt not be able to get ID in time for the election, makes its unfair and unrealistic to try and do right away. Over the next 4 years is when it should happen. That seems the fair and logical way to do it to me.
Agreed. At the very least, waiting until after the election gets rid of the conspiracy theories that this is all just to rig the results.
Freedom4Everyone: Please don't tell me you're also someone who believes in smaller government??
If you think there's a problem, how about paying for your proposed 'fix' with your own tax dollars?
I believe in big government that represents everybody--and I'm not for throwing big money at infinitesimally minute problems requiring no fix at all.
There's no fraud here that can swing any election--the entire point of the article, by the way--but these voter ID laws can & may alter this presidential election's results! Which is why Republicans in 38 states are forcing the issue forward.
I want a national photo id card, but not the barcode. I'm appalled at all of the people running around back east with nothing but a piece of sweat stained, illegible paper for id.
This id system should be put in place over a period of many years too. At least 8 years.
In my city in California we are very strict about checking and verifying voter id. This system has been in place for so many years that very few people ever get caught out. We also use pencil and paper ballots. No hacked voter machines here! We still have a warehouse full of those Diebold voting machines that are so easy to hack that there is video of a chimpanzee doing it.
Again, I have no problem with requiring a photo id, but it needs to be phased in gradually and fairly. My 81 year old mother has one even though she has no birth certificate.
Dee before you lost it how did it work, Government is our problem and you want more of it? does your mom know you are up and playing on the computer?
If you do really believe in smaller more efficient government, why would you waste time and money and other resources solving a problem that does not exist? The gist of the above article is that the in person voter fraud is tiny and has never affected the outcome of any election.
For those of you that think that big government represents everyone here is a clue. Big government by the very nature of the bureaucracy formed can only represent itself. They neither care nor represent except to benefit their own needs.
There is no question that there is voter fraud. The problem is that using the current validation processes, there is no way to prove that fraud exists. Quinnipiac did a study a few years ago and found that 9 out of 10 dead people vote Democratic (look it up). There is a youtube video where a guy is allowed to vote even though he has no documentation. (He forgot his wallet at home.). People have also registered their dogs and have been given absentee ballets. What's so hard about proving that you are a legal American? Do you have an address in the voting precinct? Do you have a valid drivers license? Do you have a SS#? Birth certificate? Tax bill? Voter fraud is rampant and that's why the Dems are against proof because they cheat at a 9:1 ratio. But if you're a soldier overseas, the Dems make it as hard as possible to vote.
I don't see anywhere does it say they're only checking Democraps ID. They are checking every ones ID. Those that scream the loudest usually have something to hide.
If Obuma/Biden is the only hope for the middle class then we are sooooo screwed.
No, you got screwed under both bushes and reagan
.
Our political system is not perfect. We generally get to choose between the lesser of evils. In 2008 many believed Obama was the lesser evil.
Today Many believe Romney is the lesser evil..
It is a true shame we cannot product a worthy president, but given the choice we do have then it has to be Romney or we are all toast!
Hogan: Republican voters generally have more money than half the country has--it's why they're Republican, duh--so getting IDs is no a problem for them
You think Romney/Ryan have your back--and you're really middle class? I'd say go ahead a vote for them, I'll laugh later, but I'm middle class, too, and I know what a a terrible danger they are for everybody in this once great nation, except the 1%. Wake up, for your own sake!!!
GHX: You truly 'believe' Romney is 'the lesser evil'?? Here's clear evidence political 'belief' must be entirely eradicated in favor of actual frontal cortex thought processes! You need to be better educated.
I want voter IDs to prevent folks from voting who persistently vote against their own self-interests!
And while we're at it-- we also need to prevent people from voting who get all their political info from 30-second TV spots--and everybody who 'believes' a candidate who occasionally leaves behind his American flag lapel pin is unAmerican.
Oh, and let's cut out everybody with an IQ of 87 or less--that would eliminate half the nation's voters right there! (Really, 80 is considered mentally deficient, why should we allow that many stupid people to infect election results?)
You managed to eliminate the IQ thing all together.
Dee, I don't yet have enough to go on with Romney, but I knew Obama was bad news the day one of my neighbors mentioned Obama "He's so charismatic..." and started swooning about him. I was not wrong my this one.
Dee Turner-your statement is just plain ridiculous and untrue!!!! Plenty of people who are low or middle income vote Republican. Up until this year I was a registered dem but I had enough $$$ to make sure I always has ID!!! I have to agree with GHX. I also distrusted Obama the first time I heard him speak when initially running for office. I don't feel my misgivings about him have been proven to be unfounded considering the state of this country and the absence of the promised "change" we were led to expect!!!
DUH!
This is another lie by the elephant people. The American public will throw all the liars and crazies out
.
Cause, y'know, that TOTALLY happened in 2010...
Well say good bye to Obuma!!!!!!!!!!
Obama will need allot of deceased people's votes in this next election, so we wouldn't want people to have to show I.D. now.....
Ronh....... you've got it backwards....... Roto Rooter Romney and Rectal Roid Ryan will need the DECEASED VOTES!!!!!!!!!!!! Lol
Ahh, HOGAN: It would almost be worth it to watch you after a President Romney sweeps VP Paul Ryans' federal budget plan into law-- eliminating healthcare, SS, and medicare, to provide the 1% with even more tax breaks and continue fed subsidies for Big Oil companies that get $41 Billion in profits per quarter, pay zero taxes--yet get 'refund' checks--out of your taxes.
'Almost,' because despite yourself, I care about what happens to you. I could never laugh to see you cut off at the knees as Republicans continue their push towards misery for the 99% so the filthy rich can get richer at your expense.
But I would really like to prevent you from voting--you would obviously fall either into category 1: folks who persistently vote against their own interests, or category 4: people with IQs of 87 or less. That's what voter ID laws are designed for, after all--preventing the votes of people who disagree with me.
good call dee these idiots vote against thier own best intrest every dam time because they are so dam brainwashed its not funny these idiots make the whole country suffer when they vote. and the sad thing is they refuse to see anything in a different light what ever the right says they beleave even if its written in stone and right in front of them. it defies logic!
Hey, don't forget that the Ryan Plan also cuts veteran's benefits 24%!!! All those who have voluntarily or were drafted to serve our country are being thrown away. Ryan doesn't think that they deserve help, but he does think that the wealthy do annd that the oil companies need even more $ fromm the government.
The voter ID laws were passed without adequate time to respond and more importlantly without changing the infrastructure to support a proper ID program. The laws should b summarily tossed out.
Someone has to catch them first, how? That is the real question, if they don't need ID.
There is not a voting place in America where you do not need id of some sort. Thats just bull. BTW who is not to say that the republicans are the cheaters?
I've voted numerous time over my 62 years. Never had to show an ID once. Not once. Don't remember anyone ever accusing anyone else of voter fraud. Maybe that's a new thing, a political thing that republicans are using to give their guy a leg up in the election. Cut those dems out wherever you can. Way pathetic, even you republicans have to admit. If that's the only way you can get your guy in, tell me, is he really worth it? It's a lead pipe cinch YOU'RE not.
Awesome Post Margaret.......... You got my vote for BEST POST so far.
what confuses me, isn't the voter fraud in itself. it's the continued efforts to derail the real issues facing the country. this seems to be a republican fueled effort. i may be incorrect in this, but what i've listened to, seems to suggest that. overall, both parties are sidetracking the real issues, the economy, jobs, the never-ending wars and the do nothing congress. and let's not overlook the get elected to congress get rich aspect of our political system. the America i knew as a child has been outsourced. no one seems to place this on a list of important issues.
Ols saying is if a republican is waving his right hand beware of what he is doing with his left...
roger (lotsa numbers): We care, roger, we do! But corporations own TV and what gets shown on TV, so it's incredibly difficult to get folks access to genuine information. They have to get off their couches and go find it. They have to educate themselves.
For a moment, my faith in the American electorate is renewed. You're figuring it out, so maybe this time, people will see through all the money thrown at them in TV political ads and recognize what's real. Otherwise, there'll be no democracy left at all.
Bless you for allowing a 62-year old political cynic to take heart--even for these few precious moments.
Don't stop here! Keep working on learning all you can--you can check out onTheIssues.org, factcheck.org, and DirtyEnergyMoney.com--and from there, you'll find many other bipartisan sources of actual, factual information. Good Luck! and thanks again, really.
You are so right about ownership of TV and other media. That is why you have to watch FreeSpeechTV to get the story on voting machine design by convicted felons working for DieBold to benefit Republicans. The CEO of the company said that in just that many words. Then, of course, there was Catherine Harris in Florida that practically decided Florida's electoral votes for everyone.
We need also to get rid of the anachronistic Electoral College. This state by state counting is archaic.
Just as well. In Ohio the republicans shortened the early voting hours of democratic counties to 8-5, weekdays only (working hours) while at the same time extending the hours of republican counties. Seems legit.
Joe............ IS THIS ACTUALLY True??????????? I hope the Justice Department is reading this.
Please call and inform them of this. I think Repubs could go to jail for that.
13dev: You liked Margaret's comment, so I like you. Now let's get real. Have you noticed the Justice Department will not be filing any criminal complaint against Goldman Sachs despite a ton or two of printed evidence to convict them of criminally illegal acts contributing mightily to the 2008 crash?
Corporations have been writing all our laws for a quarter of a century. The laws are all quite cooked in their favor. They own the Supreme Court, you know, the Court that went way beyond their jurisdiction to unconstitutionally make new law? The one that asserts corporate money is free speech within meaning of the 1st Amendment? That new law gives corporation the right to sue the fed any time something the fed does causes them to lose profits. For example, Big Tobacco recently argued the warning labels on cigarette packages infringed on their 1st Amendment rights by causing them to lose profits--AND THEY WON.
Our country's in far worse shape than you have imagined. Even if we were suddenly all to pull together, it would take half a century, at least, to fix what the corporate agenda has f---ed up throughout our nation, at both fed & state levels.
And these are not American companies anymore, they're multinationals. Right now the Supreme Court is allowing unknown foreign corporations to buy our presidential election--and not nearly enough people are even clued in to what's happening, never mind acting against it! Hello, voting fraud is just another meaningless attempt to distract us--nothing but froth--to limit our voting rights!
Please, you need to delve far more deeply into the real crisis America is facing. I love your innocence--but we can't afford it anymore. You mustn't allow this naivete in yourself.
The Supreme Court's recent decisions show clearly they are trying to gut the power of Congress to control the flow of money--to regulate commerce--authority granted to Congress in the Constitution's Commerce Clause. They are trying to destroy our Constitution--as when they decided for the first time in history, in support of the NRA--that the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms was an individual right. Now we're killing each other at alarming rates and accepting this as a way of life, just because the NRA wants to manufacture & sell firearms!
Everybody posting here--liberal, moderate, independent, conservative--needs to get a grip & educate each other about what corporations are doing. The Chamber of Commerce--not the government--is calling all the shots here.
Quit the name-calling. We've got to take our country back from the corporate agenda Romney/Ryan/& the Supreme Court are owned by and beholden to.
Don't think for one moment that after pouring millions into adverts for them, corporations will be reluctant to dictate policy, or the Romney/Ryan duet will just say no when the chits are called in.
Those who perpetrated the manipulation of voter hours in Ohio are, of course, the ones who are trying to tell us there is an in person voter fraud problem when there isn't one. Then they want to waste time and money solving a non-existent problem while preaching smaller and more efficient government.
Nice post, not just this one , but the others as well, Dee. I mean that.
However, have you ever considered how corportations got to the position where they make the laws in the first place? It's because of people Just. Like. You.
You think government is the way to get past corporations and get what you want? C'mon, Dee, be realistic. You support a representative to further whatever agenda you want and guess what's going to happen with a little critical thinking. Can you guess, or are you still carrying that admirable idealism around?
Let me put it this way: it's you and people like you versus armies of professional lobbyists, politicians, lawyers, and special interests of all stripes, every single one of which has the same motivation you do. They have families, jobs, things they care about, lives to live. They aren't the enemy..they're just you. Let me know when you beat all those evil empires.
I understand this, which is precisely I don't want to rely upon the government for anything. I prefer the free market. I love corporations because they provide me with goods and jobs in abundance. I can choose to ignore them or embrace them or even invest in them. The possibilites are almost literally limtiless for anyone.
That's what makes the world go 'round, my dear Dee, not your admittedly well-considered but ultimately futile opinion on how things should be run, as decided by people who are not you, subject to the Godlike pressures of the market. Turn to the state all you wish and continue to be dismayed by the results for reasons you may invent but can't truly understand. Once you get tired of it, come see me for a job. I can't promise it will pay well (I haven't the money), but I'll do everything I can to make it comfortable work and I'll educate you on economics in the process.
do you need id to get your obama bucks?
Do you need id's to get corporate welfare bucks? Or Wall Street bailout bucks? Or no bid contract bucks in Iraq? I really wonder if you need an id for off shore bank accounts?
If these people want voters to have ids, then the states should be providing them free, and if it is a matter of physical address to register to vote then let them use a po box. I can see the US Supreme Court getting involved in this after this election if a lot of people claim they were denied right to vote, and from the way I see it, it don't look good for the Republican Party because they are the one's pushing this law.
There are a lot of homeless Veterans, who probably would like to vote but won't be allowed because of these laws.
Supreme court involved votes 4-5 Republican favor
Forget about left or right. Stop arguing about what is what. Just enforce voter ID law to block out people who are not eligible to vote. You want to vote, you have to show ID. Period.
How can you forget about left or right when it is only the right that wants this ID thing? This is not a bi-partisan issue by any means.
Yep voter ID needed if we can find one person that is illegal to vote its worth keeping ten thousand Democrasts from voting that is elderly and has no way to get a photo ID. I live 22 miles from the county seat where I might be able to get a photo ID but only 2 miles from a place to vote. If i didn't have a drivers license how on earth could I get the photo ID. VOTING IS NOT A RIGHT IN FLORIDA ITS A PRIVLEGE Granted by the Republicans
Clayton, how do you get to the voting booth? If you can't get an ID on your own, I'm sure your county or city Dem. Party headquarters would be willing to help you. They do it here. They help with absentee ballots, registration of the housebound or hospitalized and transportation of people who don't drive. Give me a break.
It is not more difficult for minorities to get ID's then any other group... Except one, Illegal Aliens will have a harder time getting an ID, and even though no one wants to say it, that is the group the Democracts want to keep showing up to vote....
ANDREW: It does help to read the fr---ing article before you post. Never mind--I understand knowledge is just getting in your way.
jtm964: Try reading the comments here about the hardships involved for some in getting those IDs, and then try balancing that against the importance of the right to vote?
That's what this article and its forum are for. The idea is to contribute by helping to reason through it. You can issue your edicts at the dinner table, if you like.
Dee then maybe people like YOU should get up off their whining duffs, hit the nursing homes, senior centers etc.. and volunteer your time and all the cash you can afford to get people the documents they need and rides to the DMV. There are medical taxis. vans etc.. many assisted living and nursing homes have their own vans so maybe you can volunteer to go help out with efforts to get the eldery and disabled out to get this done!!!
Dee, this is a public forum. You don't need to produce documentation of party affiliation or who you vote for to post. You don't seem to realize that you are the problem. You are the only one denying people their rights according to political affiliation.
Skrewdworld is correct. Get off your futon and help those poor disenfranchised people get enfranchised, but help every one of them, not just those you are sure you will vote Democratic.
Did I miss something? What about all the Acorn games? Weren't they registering Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck?
Yes, the Dems are right to be afraid of the wide open rules we have now. Maybe someone will be suppressed. There's no evidence of that. If you're afraid of elderly in rest homes being suppressed just insist on some canvasing rules that leave no stone unturned. The protests seem to be worried about no more magic ballots suddenly turning up to give Al Franken a Senate victory. Look at it another way. Maybe it will prevent another Florida in 2000 giving the victory to George Bush.
Come on you guys. Everything in our society today requires ID. This is an important if late addition.
Go register every single person you find. Ask them to vote for Obama. Just ask for ID first.
No, fenterlips NOBODY named Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck was EVER registered as a qualified voter! Get it? It's true somebody who called himself Mickey Mouse applied, but that person WAS NEVER registered as a voter. That's because the policies we ALREADY had in place worked! And that's what so galling to the Republicans.
OMG! Do the conspiracies EVER end??
Yes... the Al Franken scandal where his opponent conceded... terrrible injustice.
And by the way - those Mickey Mouse registrants don't actually vote.
fensterlips: In 2000, the Supreme Court gave the election to Bush against the popular vote--remember?
What "magic ballots"? You are quite devoted to a problem that doesn't exist, according to the article.
Evidence? Facts would help.
Dee Turner, the popular vote does not decide presidential elections.
It was blown out of proportion. It was a fabrication of Tea baggers and Right Wing nutters who are fascists and bigots in sheep clothing. The facts are there and there are some folks who can't stomach the truth which is: The republican legislatures are fixing the election to keep the disenfranchised out of the voting booth. Combine this with their frenzied hunger for control and power and their veiled racist vocabulary, you come up with an even greater blow to democracy in this country. Free speech is only for those with money - ask Karl "Goebbels" Rove.
All you are doing is name calling. You have not expressed one intelligent thought on this topic.
Geriatric, are you kidding me now!!!?? All republicans are now racists, fascists and bigots?!?!?!?! What a load of BS!!!! I am a former dem now registered as independent and I know thats crap to label people that way!!!