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Subscribe to RSSA convicted felon in Maine can vote from prison while a felon in Florida may never vote again, illustrating dramatically different state rules. In South Dakota, Eileen Janis, who was convicted of a theft but served no time in jail, was allowed to vote only after election officials learned the state laws, which can be confusing. Produced by Alia Conley and Emily Nohr, News21.
From a continuing series of articles, Who Can Vote?, a News21 investigation of voting rights in America. Read the full series.
By Maryann Batlle and Carl Straumsheim
News21
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Discuss this series of stories on the Facebook page for Open Channel, the NBC News investigative blog. |
Josh and Katy Vander Kamp met in drug rehab. In the seven years since, they have been rebuilding their lives in Apache Junction, Ariz., a small town east of Phoenix.
He’s a landscaper; she’s studying for a master’s degree in addictions counseling. They have two children, a dog and a house. Their lives reveal little of their past, except that Katy can vote and Josh can’t because he’s a two-time felon.
She’s been arrested three times, but never convicted of a felony. By age 21, Josh was charged with two — for a drug-paraphernalia violation and possessing a burglary tool.
“I didn’t do anything that he didn’t do, and he’s paying for it for the rest of his life,” Katy said.
With voting laws a heated issue this election year as civil rights groups and state legislatures battle over photo ID requirements in this election year, felon disenfranchisement laws have attracted less attention despite the potential votes at stake.
A patchwork of restrictions in every state but Maine and Vermont keep about 5.85 million Americans with felony convictions off voting rolls, according to The Sentencing Project, a Washington, D.C., criminal justice reform advocacy group. The report also suggests that some races are hit by these laws more than others.
A felon in Maine can vote from prison using an absentee ballot, while a felon convicted of the same crime in Florida, the state with the highest percentage of disenfranchised African Americans in the nation, might never regain the right to vote — even after release.
People convicted of more than one felony in Arizona lose gun ownership and voting rights until a county court restores them. Josh Vander Kamp’s first attempt at regaining his rights failed last year.
With his wife’s help, Josh Vander Kamp applied to the county court that sentenced him in both cases. About three months later he was rejected. Vander Kamp said he’s not sure why his past is still a problem.
“It’s over and done with. I’ve put it behind me. I wish other people would put it behind them,” he said.
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Who can vote? A national News21 investigation of voting rights in America. |
Laws vary widely on how felons lose their voting rights and how states restore them.
In Mississippi, 22 categories of crime result in disenfranchisement. Timber larceny is on the list; manslaughter is not. Felons who want their voting rights back must be approved by a two-thirds vote in both houses of the legislature, and the governor can sign or veto it.
Until 2007, Maryland disenfranchised people convicted of misdemeanors involving corruption or fraud. Alabama denies the vote to anyone convicted of distributing pornography, even if it depicts consenting adults.
Pennsylvania felons can register to vote when they are released from prison. Kentucky felons must apply to the governor.
Reform advocates see voting as a symbolic key step to returning felons to communities.
“When people are punished for crimes that they’ve committed, that should not involve forfeiting their basic rights of citizenship, which is what felony disenfranchisement does,” said Marc Mauer, executive director of The Sentencing Project.
The group estimates that 75 percent of disenfranchised felons are no longer incarcerated.
Allen Jenkins, a black resident of Nashville, Tenn., was released in 1996 after serving one year for a drug charge. Jenkins, 51, still hasn’t regained his voting rights.
“I’m a U.S. citizen,” Jenkins said. “I should be able to vote for whoever I want and to give my opinion.”
Across the country, racial minorities are more likely to be barred from voting because of felony convictions, reform advocates say. Blacks made up 12.6 percent of the U.S. population in 2010, but 37.9 percent of the more than 1.5 million people in federal and state prisons, according to data from the Census and the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics.
“Much of it involves the fact that law enforcement agencies have targeted low-income communities of color in particular … often to the exclusion of more well-off communities where drug use and drug selling may be more likely to take place behind closed doors or where there’s less efforts made to address drug-selling activity,” Mauer said.
Michael Ciaglo/News21
Click on the photo to see a News21 slideshow of felons seeking voting rights. They've served time for the crimes they committed. They paid restitution and all other costs. Still, their path to restored voting rights is filled with obstacles. There's no national standard for restoring a felon's voting rights.
In Tennessee, drug offenders were about 16 percent of the inmate population in 2010-11, according to the state Department of Correction.
Nonviolent felons in Tennessee can apply to have their voting rights restored, but the felony charge remains on their records even if their application is approved. As of July 1, one-time felons also can restore their rights by expunging the charge from their records.
Jenkins, a single father of two, has struggled financially since his conviction. He thought a clean record could help him find a job, which is why he will apply to expunge the drug conviction, he said.
“I should not be condemned over something I’ve done in the past when that past is dead,” Jenkins said.
Supporters of disenfranchisement laws said the policies preserve the integrity of the American legal system by stopping people who might choose to undermine it with their votes.
“If you are unwilling to follow the law, then you can’t demand a right to make the law for everyone else, and that’s what you’re doing when you vote,” said Roger Clegg, president and general counsel of the Falls Church, Va., Center for Equal Opportunity, a conservative think tank on issues of ethnicity and race.
Voting rights should be restored case by case, Clegg said, and only after felons can prove they’ve “turned over a new leaf.”
The governors in Florida, Iowa, Kentucky and Virginia have the last say when determining who that might be.
After taking office in January 2011, Iowa’s Republican Gov. Terry Branstad revoked the automatic restoration process established by former Gov. Tom Vilsack, a Democrat.
Iowa’s application process has drawn complaints from the American Civil Liberties Union and felons who want to vote. Applicants must submit a criminal history, a credit report and pay all fines and court fees to regain voting rights.
David Christian, 33, owes $155,000 in restitution related to a 2008 voluntary manslaughter charge. He’s paid $941 of it in nine months. The Iowa City resident, who lives with his parents and works full-time at the family store, said it will be difficult for him to pay his debt.
“I will be disenfranchised for the foreseeable future, maybe a few decades, because I can’t pay restitution,” he said.
Christian, who is on parole until May 2013, filed to have his rights restored though he knew he was ineligible. His rejection letter came in the mail June 25.
He registered to vote when he was 18, and last voted during the 2008 presidential election while he was a pretrial detainee. Christian said he feels like a second-class citizen now.
“I want to be able to have a voice,” Christian said.
Branstad has approved the only 10 applications that crossed his desk between December 2011 and May 15, according to Larry Johnson, deputy legal counsel for the Iowa Governor’s Office. Johnson said three other applications were returned because they were incomplete.
Felons in Florida must apply to the state Board of Executive Clemency — Gov. Rick Scott and his three-person Cabinet — after they have completed their sentences, paid restitution and waited five or seven years, depending on the offense.
Scott tightened the state’s policy in March 2011 and has approved dramatically fewer applications than his predecessors, Republican Govs. Charlie Crist and Jeb Bush, who both streamlined the process.
Between 2011 and early July, 188 felons regained their rights, according to the Florida Parole Commission. But a backlog of 21,197 applications as of July 1 means Florida felons who have completed their sentences could wait a decade or more for a decision.
Humberto Aguilar, a Cuban-born Miami resident who applied in 2005, is still waiting.
Aguilar, an attorney for drug smugglers in the 1980s, was indicted for tax evasion and drug crimes. He fled and was a fugitive in Europe before being extradited to face the charges.
He returned to South Florida as a parolee in 2000. After working at hotels and a non-profit, Aguilar became a money-laundering consultant.
It’s been about seven years since he applied to become a “whole human being again.”
“If you cannot participate in the everyday political life of this country, you are like an 1840s slave. You have no rights,” Aguilar said.
Unlike Branstad and Scott, Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell has made voting rights restoration easier. He campaigned on a promise to process applications within three months, but completes the work in 60 days. Under former Democratic Gov. Tim Kaine, restoration could take up to one year.
McDonnell has restored the rights of about 3,000 Virginians during his first two years in office, signing off on nearly nine of every 10 applications. Kaine approved a record 4,402 applications over four years. McDonnell is on track to surpass that number.
Richard W. Walker, 54, regained his rights under McDonnell after a 2004 drug conviction. The prospect of getting his rights back inspired him to beat a 40-year addiction, Walker said.
While in rehabilitation in 2007, Walker met McDonnell, then Virginia’s attorney general. Walker said McDonnell promised to personally hand his application to Kaine.
“I knew at that time I was done with drugs and alcohol,” Walker said.
McDonnell restored Walker’s rights in April, and in December, Walker will mark five years of sobriety. He now heads Bridging the Gap in Virginia, a nonprofit that helps felons readjust to society.
Felon disenfranchisement has an impact on the national political debate, said Christopher Uggen, a professor of sociology at the University of Minnesota and the lead researcher for The Sentencing Project report.
“Whether it’s welfare reform or whether it is progressive taxation or whether it is the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan, each of those issues is going to be decided without the voices of six million people who are disproportionately poor, disproportionately persons of color,” Uggen said.
The 1985 Supreme Court decision in Hunter v. Underwood held that Alabama’s felon disenfranchisement law was intended to remove blacks and poor whites from voter rolls, and established a high bar for suits that allege racial discrimination, said Louis Seidman, a Georgetown University professor of constitutional law.
“In this particular case it was much easier because these people just got up... on the floor of the legislature and said, ‘This is a way to prevent blacks from voting,’ and nobody who is around today is that unsubtle,” Seidman said.
Legislation that would create a national standard also has failed in Congress. Democrats introduced the Voter Empowerment Act of 2012, which proposes sweeping changes in how federal elections are conducted and would let felons who are out of prison vote in federal elections.
In 2011, President Barack Obama said the Department of Justice has the “capacity and the obligation” to monitor states’ felon-disenfranchisement laws to make sure they are not “purposely exclusionary.”
“One of the strengths of America has always been that this is a land of second chances,” Obama said.
But states’ rights advocates disagree.
“The 14th Amendment of the Constitution makes it very clear that states have the ability to remove the voting rights of individuals who have been convicted of rebellion or other crime,” said Hans von Spakovsky, senior legal fellow at the Heritage Foundation, a Washington, D.C., conservative public policy research institute.
Meanwhile, these laws can change rapidly, through an executive order as in Iowa — or the process could take longer.
Rhode Island voters approved a constitutional amendment in 2006 to give parolees and probationers voting rights.
Felon volunteers and their advocates spent about two years door-knocking, lobbying and campaigning to “change hearts and minds,” said Sol Rodriguez, executive director of OpenDoors, a Providence, R.I., nonprofit that provides re-entry services for felons and led the voting rights effort.
The voting rights of 17,606 Rhode Islanders were restored and 6,330 of them registered to vote by the 2008 general election, according to OpenDoors.
When Jaleeza Oliver, 20, was released in May, she went to OpenDoors to sign up for services. When asked if she’d like to register to vote, Oliver said yes.
“It makes me feel I’m more part of the community rather than being rejected because of a record,” she said.
Andrea Rumbaugh, Jeremy Knop, Alissa Skelton and Michael Ciaglo contributed to this article. Maryann Batlle was an Ethics and Excellence in Journalism Foundation fellow this summer at News21. American Public Media’s Public Insight Network contributed to this article.
Discuss this series of stories on the Facebook page for Open Channel, the NBC News investigative blog.
Leave a Comment:
If you're a convicted felon, currently in prison, you should not be allowed to vote. Once you have "Paid your debt to society" I suppose then you should get that right back.
I think laws like this need to be made national.
No. Felons shouldn't get the right to vote, it's the law. The problem is that there are a lot of felony charges out there which are used to convict people of things less than maybe what the idea was originally. I would suggest reviewing when the laws were drafted what were felonies given for.
Gee, maybe they shouldnt have done the crime.
Well don't be ridiculous!
Of course felons should be able to vote.
After all felons are being elected to office!!
The whole idea of prison is to pay their debt to society. Once they've paid that debt they should be penalized the rest of their lives for something they may have did as a teen. I say they should get their voting rights back after they're off any parole they may have after prison.
The constitution doesn't say committing a crime negates the rest of the constitution. This applies for the right to bear arms as well.
A Government that is not aware that its citizens can take back Government will become too large and controling and eventually, no matter how many laws you make to take away guns, voting rights, and the such, the society must overthrow the Government.
Our country was founded off people who understood this. It was founded off a rough group of citizens who were not afraid of violence if the situation demanded it.
Making laws to take rights away in the hopes of making a more "civilized" society so you can steal Trillions of $$$'s because you were voted in might not be a felony (because Congress would never make it one) but its stealing none the less.
Said another way the "educated" "political" part of our society is robbing us blind. Voting, and the right to bear arms, is our only two protections.
If a "felon" who had some pot is our way to freedom, either because he can vote, or because he can own a gun, I'm all for it.
It would be unpatriotic not to be.
Murderers, rapist, and the such should never see the light of day, so they would be a non issue in this debate. That we parole them is our mistake...
The vast majority of people know you lose the right to vote if you commit a felony. Hell no they should not be able to vote, that's why your called "a felon", and you knew that BEFORE you committed your crime. Leave it to MSN to champion voting rights for felons, after all they want illegals to be able to vote also. Liberal garbage.
We have politicians taking bribes from the private prison industry who writes legislation for governors and legislators to sign. If things continue as they are the private prisons will be able to write a wish list when they need a certain skill set and send the police to sit outside your house.
It would be one thing if there were isolated cases of disenfranchisement but America has the largest prison population in the world. I don't think having ex-felons voting subverts the election process as long as political corruption is an accepted part of our "democracy." When corruption is the only thing in this country that's still legal and you have the power to manipulate the legal system so that your detractors never get to vote again. It's a path to fascism.
The problem with assuming they've paid their debt to society or that they have been rehabilitated or that some crimes are worse than others is FELONS have committed crimes of significance and part of the loss in such rights is considered a deterrent to committing them in the first place. It's been proven jail is not a good enough deterrent to recommitting such crimes as most FELONS are multiple offenders. If you are going to defend that SOME FELONY crimes are less serious than others due to old laws, it must be considered that there needs to be a clear delineation as to what determines the loss of such rights. Would you allow convicted FELONS to own guns? It's easier to say ALL FELONS loss the right to vote. One might say that after they have been released from prison....and have not committed another crime even misdemeanor say for 5 years they would get their right to vote back. Still that would be VERY difficult to enforce and control. WE have a hard enough time keeping Voter Registration files updated as we have probably millions of deceased residents still active in the Voter Registration logs.
tonyinwyo,
this last election cycle in san antonio, there was a convicted felon running for city DA. He couldnt legally become a police officer, but because it is an elected position, he could become the city DA?
how is this even possible?
he didnt win, but i thought it was funny he even tried, and it wasnt like he lost in a land slide either. he had democratic stars like eva longoria pushing for him to be elected.
Ironic?
a democrat that is a felon wanting to hold an office, and other democrats supporting a convicted felon!
NICE!
nice to know politicians run on a different set of rules.
If you pay taxes, you vote...period. Now, if the State doesn't want you to vote, even after you have been released and are not on parole...they can put you on the books as tax exempt. Let's not forget the primary reason for the founding of this nation...taxation without representation.
Felons are citizens too--and their lives are affected by how politicians act. SO, of course they should be able to vote. Voting is a right.
Felons used to not be able to get married until the Supreme Court ruled marriage is a right.
Another biased piece of reporting:
So a felon who can't vote is "disenfranchised"?! Many would say they voluntarily forfeited their right to vote when they committed a felony. The laws are on the states' books, people. If you are convicted of a felony in Florida, you can't vote. So what's the answer? DON'T COMMIT A FELONY IN FLORIDA. Geesh, it's not that difficult to understand.
Bart Conner; I know of no law, prohibiting felons from being married(the syphilis laws are no longer applied); each State has a right to determine who is a eligible voter, as long as it is not based on race, sex, religion or pole tax.
But you can be a felon and not get convicted.
Assaulting a cop is a felony, I think we can all agree on that. Yet a person whose been in the news a lot lately was shuttled into a pretrial diversion program prior to conviction and so was never convicted, then was permitted to keep his weapons permit even after (reciprocal) domestic violence restraining injunctions and at at the time this person shot another person, this unconvicted felon was under treatment for psychiatric disorders. While guilt, responsibility ad culpability may be of issue in the shooting, depending on a jury decision this person may not be convicted of a felony this time either, so should his firearms rights be revoked?
Felons aren't supposed to own firearms either, but as long as were "bending" things here, lets throw in a 45 cal handgun with every felony ballot!
Some (political) felons are re-elected to office, but we keep (regular people) felons from voting because of a prison record.
If you look deep enough into regulations, you'll find most of these laws were enacted to further disenfranchise black voters back in the days. Everything in America is geared around race. America is a racist country, but many white people don't have the balls to admit it.
OBAMA/BIDEN....2012!!!!
Nope, felons ought not have the right to vote. They knowingly and willingly gave up many rights accorded law abiding citizens. Given the high recidivism in this country, it's a ludicrous idea in the first place. Given that more than one million men are in prison, another million in city/county jails around the country with an estimated 3 million men on parole or probation, clearly incarceration has little to no impact on most lowlife. At @$30,000/year per inmate, taxpayers are already footing the bill for these cretins who had no respect for the citizenry, in addition to being the actual victims of these often repeat offender men. I'm in favor of making prisons and jail a bit harsher with less of everything, except hard work picking up trash on medians and digging ditches to honestly repay society.
Also an issue is how this criminal woman slipstreamed through the system: "She’s been arrested three times, but never convicted of a felony."
Don't forget His Honor Marion Berry...Three drug possession charges and he was still re-elected as Mayor of DC.
smfrazz, think for aminute. 1) Many people serve time for crimes they didn't commit. Even those who did, when released, they have to conform to rules which are hard to fullfill for a convicted felon. Whay they have to maintain full-time employment and conform to other stipulations, society doesn't have to conform to providing opportunities that are needed to full commitments to the state. Don't try to use examples of those who did, because in all likelyhood, they got luck, and most will tell you that it was no easy task finding employment. If it's no easy task for those who do find employment, the most likely, logical case is that there isn't enough accessible employment to fill the need for work by a convicted felon who have served their time or been paroled.
You can;t make the claim that on one hand things should be unfair for them, and in the same breath try to make a case about how many return to the same things that got them imprisoned to begin with. What results are you looking for from a system like that anyway? You can either support their reintegration back into society, or you can encourage their re-entry back into the system that you say cost too much and is ineffective. You can't build on the ideas of punishment and rehabilitation and only enforce punishment. It's a technique that only undermines itself.
Once you have served your sentence and parole, you should regain full rights. That means the vote, gun ownership, and the right to make a @!$%#ing living. This should be especially true in a country where we throw people in prison at the drop of hat whether the crime was violent or not!
Stealing tree in Mississippi or selling a Playboy magazine in Alabama will get you into the non voting status but manslauter in Mississippi and stealing millions in kick back funds (Jefferson county) will not.
Add one more, fraudulently taking hundreds of millions from Medicare in Florida, getting caught and paying a fine will not only keep you in the voting status but make you a governor.
How can you call a America a Democratic society when certain groups determine who should vote?
This is one of my favorite subjects to show the hypocrosy of idiots.
If voting is a right and you should have your rights restored after paying your debt then.
Megans law is completely illegal. You paid your debt why can't you live near a school? I think you should be able to because if you're that dangerous you shouldn't be out of jail!
You should be able to own a firearm. You paid your debt to society why shouldn't you be able to protect yourself against someone breaking into your home to kill you? I think you should be able to because if you're that dangerous you shouldn't be out of jail.
Your record should be exponged immediatly after you are no longer on parole and out of jail. Because if you still dangerous enough to not be trusted you shouldn't be out of jail.
So basically we could make this fair pretty quickly, don't let bad untrustworthy people out of jail. If you didn't do anything to harm anyone, you shouldn't go to jail. Nope you shouldn't go to jail for selling orchids without a licence. Nope you shouldn't go to jail for selling unpasteriesed milk or drug or whatever unless you have actually harmed someone physically or economically with malace and if it was trully unintentional and unforseable you shouldn't go to jail at all, just pay restitution. I don't like to see people go to jail because they accidently dropped a hammer off a ladder and killed someone. I also hate seeing child molesters and rapists and murderers walking our streets.
You need to keep the real scum bags in prison and out of society forever so get the guys that have some drug possesion or some BS violation like that out of prison to make room for the real criminals.
Nicely put.
My goodness, read what all the bleeding hearts are saying in defense of thugs, gangsters, robbers, perverts...society's bottom feeders that made a decision to break the law and wish to be held as equal to those that live within society. Dear hearts, we are not talking about traffic violators. There has never been a criminal regretful of their crimes, only sorry they got caught. Oh, but most have found Jesus inside the prison/jail. You can live a productive life as an example for others, but gave up the precious right to vote when convicted. Kinda makes you feel real good that a number of "convicts" Democraps can't vote.
I take comfort in knowing that you will only continue to hate the future more and more.
If these felons want to vote then they should be forced to complete all parole, make all required restitution, and repay the entire cost of their incarceration first. Only then have they truly repaid their entire debt to society. The idea that you have paid your debt once you are out of prison is false. There are other things involved in paying your debt and that includes compensating all your victims for what you have done to them and compensating the taxpayers for all of the costs you have placed on them while serving your sentence and parole. I personally think that anyone who is placed in prison and has the money should be forced to pay the cost of their incarceration instead of placing this burden on the taxpayer. If you do not have the money, then once you are released your wages should be garnished until you have paid back this part of your debt to society. You should also have to pay all costs associated with being on parole like monitoring and the salaries of parole officers. A law like this would really help state budgets. Once all of these debts have been paid, then and only then should you get the right to vote back.
Only if they have a photo ID.
NO BO IN 13
wburnes it is ignorance like that why we will continue to have so much crime in the future. You push people to the margins they become an underclass and will only go further underground and go on to commit more and more crimes in the future. You learn their psychology, do things to prevent people from becoming criminals, and offer past criminals opportunities other then more crime and you will greatly reduce crime. Yes punishment is part of the equation but is not the be all and end all. There is also degrees of punishment and many states have took things to far and have created laws to severe. My state of Arizona is a prime example Texas is another. Prison reform is also needed they have become criminal training grounds and do very little in the way of real reform, ending substance abuse problems, and addressing mental illness. I am proud to be a bleeding heart liberal it means I am a compassionate human being unlike an angry, vengeful, bitter conservative.
@ JS,
" repay the entire cost of their incarceration first. "
I like that idea!
To me when a person is placed in prison for breaking the law..you should lose all rights from being part of the free society rights!
When/if released from prison those rights you get back.
In some states felons have the right to vote from prison, or after the sentence is up. If you automatically think a felony takes peoples right to vote, well you are il-informed. They have a chart on wiki that shows what state voting laws are. Check it out people, as to not look ignorant.
Big surprise that the conservatives are in favor of policies that would only put people right back in prison. The main reason most felons go back is because it is next to impossible to find decent employment straight out of prison. If they cannot get a job that they can live off of in the first place,how do you expect them to pay anything back?
Why don't y'all just say what you really think! Off with their heads.
Here in TX prisoners work the entire time they are there with zero compensation or they are put in solitary. The prisons here are almost completely self sufficient. But, even here they are allowed to vote and even posses firearms within their homes 5 years after completing parole.
I happen to agree with both policies. I don't think prison should be a vacation but once you are done, you are done, back to regular life.
What integrity? It's not the people voting who undermine our legal system; it's the people voted IN who undermine our legal system.
As long as they are still citizens of this country, no one who has made a mistake and paid for that mistake should have their Constitutional right removed.
Ok for all of those tree-hugging liberals let's just look at some basic facts that are eluding common sense and intellect here.
The victims of a crime lost their rights of being secure in their homes and person (4th Amendment constitutional right) as a result of the felon not giving a damn about the rights of the person they committed their crimes against. The victims of murder have lost their voting rights, and basic other inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness FOREVER. Those that engaged in the illicit drug trade, that is using and dealing apparently had and have no respect for the laws of the land, nor do they care about the added costs of policing, courts, and running the jails. Of course, let's not forget the imposed "soft rights" of plea bargains, parole, probation, and even the 30+ years of the appeals process, of which THEIR VICTIMS never recieved, had any one advocate for, or even become a topic of discussion.
We as responsible parents teach our children - or should i say are SUPPOSED TO BE TEACHING OUR CHILDREN - there are consequences for everything you do or don't do. We are supposed to be teaching them to respect the law, respect other people and their things, and to behave and act in a manner that is acceptable to the norms of society. Felons apparently don't care about that either.
Isn't part of the problem of our society today that we do not hold people accountable for what they do? Isn't part of the problem the repeat offenders that didn't, wouldn't, or even consider learning from committing their 1st crime? Is it not enough that we have the high crime rates because there is little to no respect for the law? A felon is not supposed to own, be in possession of, or be around fire arms and ammunition. They know that from going to prison. But how many of them get out and committ more crimes with firearms, hunt, or own illegal weapons? Isn't part of the problem today the lack of having punishment for crimes to be a deterrent against committing crime in the first place?
But certainly I can see how the poor poor felon is soooo victimized because they can't vote. Well in my humble opinion, they should consider themselves lucky if the only true consequence is not being able to vote. The consequence of their crimes has a hell of a lot worse impact on their victims and society as a whole. Maybe the real solution is to stop coddling the felon (afterall they made the choice to committ their crime, without care of the consequences) and make the penalties for committing crime so harsh that the thought of even considering the illegal act doesn't even enter the thought process to start.
People make me sick with this felons should be able to vote cr@p. To me, a felon NEVER pays their debt to society because they never pays in full for the restitution to the victim (in some cases dead is dead and there is no money that can replace a loved one, or return the dignity to a rape victim), never pays the cost of trial, policing, or even the incarceration (along with all the costs associated with it - housing, utilities, food, guard salaries, maintainance of the institution, clothes, medical, administration), or even the cost of the threat to society they caused. So you liberals will just have to forgive me for not buying into your mindless banter about how felons deserve a 2nd, 3rd, 20th, chance. They had their chance to be a law abiding citizen (and enjoy the perks of that good citizenship) and they blew it...
Taxation without representation, isn't that the primary principle the country was founded on ? Every citizen of this country who has paid his/her so called debt to society should immediately have their constitutional right to vote fully restored.
smfrazz:
Please, remind me where it says those who make a mistake (commit a crime) give up their Constitutional rights.
It's no wonder our rights have become so weakened with people like yourself just willing to throw them out the window. You should be wary, because you never know when Constitutional rights will begin being taken away for the reason of stupidity.
The only thing this article does is water down the word "disenfranchise". Much like the charge of "racism" has almost no meaning anymore because of the overuse by those who would like to benefit from its usage, the misuse of "disenfranchise" has it following the same trail to insignificance.
Uhhhhh...isn't it the people voting who actually vote the people IN in the first place???
Debi...they don't give up their Constitutional rights if placed in prison for a crime...they lose 'some' of their Constitutional rights though!
Example of one of them..does a person in prison have the rights to bear arms???
Will the Watcher:
Gee Will, it's comforting to know somebody around here is so perfect and so above everyone else and believes convicted felons aren't made to pay for their mistake.
What about all of the criminals in Washington and on Wall Street who get away with committing crimes against millions of people? They're allowed to stay in office and get richer.
If you can't recognize the hypocrisy and narrow mindedness in your view, our Republic is in for a crash landing.
Wow many of you don't understand how taking away right to vote is an abuse of government power. It would be fine if the concept of "felon" was always properly and consistently applied, but it obviously is not. Someone who is a felon one place isn't a felon in another, some felons can't vote, some can. Voting at the federal level at least should be consistent across the entire country.
Secondly, the prisoners themselves have a right to vote as sometimes laws and penal systems themselves need to be changed. They should be able to vote for politicians that support properly run prisons, politicians that support legalizing something, etc.
Also what could possibly go wrong with felons voting anyway? There are generally only two parties to vote for, and also all political candidates are reasonably legit.
Anyway, most of you are way to quick to support the government taking away a person's rights. This is especially dangerous when they're taking away the right to change the government, and also when they get to choose who to label "felon".
There is nothing in the Constitution that explicitly ensures the right to vote. It is left to the states to determine as long as they are not intentionally discriminating based on race or gender. Most of these laws were enacted prior to blacks being granted the right to vote in the first place ergo there is no intended discrimination.
Julian,
I don't agree that convicts should be allowed to vote while incarcerated.
BUT, THIS
Has to be the best sentence on this page.
I'd be in favor of allowing convicted felons to vote once they have been released from prison...completed any parole that followed...and repay the honest, hard working taxpayers who had to foot the bill for the felons' trials and incarceration.
Mike in SA, your response is laughable. "There is nothing in the Constitution that explicitly ensures the right to vote." Are you unable to read, or do you get off on being that stupid? Here, let's do it together. 26th Amendment to the constitution: The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.
the007seeker:
Some people just like to make up the rules as they go along, ignoring the real rules.
mike227:
Maybe you meant to say does someone who has been in prison have the right to bear arms, because no one who is serving a prison sentence should be armed or they wouldn't be able to stay imprisoned. If so, that too, I believe, is a government abuse of power. The Constitution clearly states "the right to bear arms shall not be infringed". And regarding the milita portion, I can form a neighborhood militia.
Mike in SA:
Uhhhhh... politicians can't commit crimes against the people until they are already IN office, so how will the voters know the future? ESP? Do you claim to have ESP to know this when you vote Mike in SA?
Well, I'm not going to let fact checking interfere with my opinion...I stand by my assertion that 2+2=5.
Ted...can you elaborate on how paying one's debt to society equates with one being allowed to have all rights returned?
If only life were so black and white, but it's mostly shades of grey. If you've been convicted of a felony, you've established a precedent about yourself that sets you apart from the rest of society.
There is hypocrisy, but only if you choose to interpret this situation that way.
the007seeker Mike in SA, your response is laughable. "There is nothing in the Constitution that explicitly ensures the right to vote." Are you unable to read, or do you get off on being that stupid? Here, let's do it together. 26th Amendment to the constitution: The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.
please read your post again, emphasizing on the last 4 words, then rethink your point.
I support everyone's right to arm bears. Seriously, people...let's reduce this to terms that the American mercantile mentality can understand. If you pay taxes, you vote. If you don't pay taxes, you don't vote. That may mean that Romney can't vote for himself in the upcoming.
The 15th Amendment, Section 1 states:
Please note "or previous condition of servitude". Look up the definition of "servitude". Servitude does not only apply to slavery. When one is imprisoned, they too, lose their liberty.
JS in SD.............you hit the nail on the head! Repaying a debt to society encompasses much more than serving time; for every one of our tax dollars that are utilized to incarcerate a felon, one less dollar is utilized for educating our children. Repay your incarceration costs, court fees, parole fees, drug treatment fees (paid for by most states from tax revenue), and resitution owed to the victim FIRST; prove that you are truly rehabilitated by truly "repaying your debt to society". In chosing to lead a life of crime they willingly infringed upon the rights of others; they either directly victimized an individual/s or they indirectly victimized society financially by having us pay for their incarceration and all additional costs incurred by their poor decision (family on welfare, etc.).
livinginthewoods...you're obviously either an ex-felon or a family member of one. It'd be so refreshing to see someone in your situation view such topics in an unbiased point of view, realizing and acknowledging the burdern criminals place on society. In having dealt with criminals over the past 20 years I'm come to realize that the typcial mentality of criminals has been, and always will be, extremely selfish in nature.
a felon is NOT disenfranchised........ they are FELONS
gato:
Then how do you propose handling the criminals who actually make the laws?
Just go to Washington State.
JohnBrowning....."If you pay taxes, you vote. If you don't pay taxes, you don't vote. That may mean that Romney can't vote for himself in the upcoming."
Well, well.....by your interpretation of voting laws, then 41 Obama White House staffers, and some of their aides, along with HUNDREDS of "elite" elected Congressional Representatives and HUNDREDS of government workers CANNOT VOTE because they have FAILED TO PAY THEIR BACK IRS TAXES.
Yep, might as well go after those Obama coroporate friends like GE (BTW, the CEO of GE is Mr. Obama's Jobs Czar). Since GE has FAILED to pay taxes, then everyone working for GE will not be allowed to vote. /s/
Debi...In reading your comments you seem to be hung up on the criminals we have in office. Even though your question has no real bearing on the current topic, I'll enlighten you with a response: a person convicted of a felony should be prohibited from running for office, and those convicted of a felony while they're already in office should be removed and lose the privilige of representation. It's a simple solution that only needs the citizens of our governemts at the city, state and/or national to assemble and demand a change.
In a system where somewhere about 38% of the total population that can vote actually registers and votes how many ex-felons would actually register and vote? In a system where the two largest reasons for not voting are "Too Busy" and "Don't Care" how many ex-felons would actually register and vote? Those incarcerated should not be able to vote. Once released they should be able to vote. Those that have straightened out their lives might vote. Those still breaking the law probably won't. The last thing we need is another bureaucracy to case by case restore people's voting rights.
Well gato I can't speak for Debi and I doubt that you really care but I'm guessing that her point is something along the lines that most of those in political and economic power would be convicted felons if they had not immorally manipulated the laws to suit themselves and their greedy partners at the expense of hardworking, tax paying middle class Americans.
Unless the felony was related to voter fraud, illegal campaign procedures, or somehow directly related to the election process, I can think of NO reason to prevent felons from voting. To the contrary, convicts like Tom Delay, and others will move right back into the political process as lobbyists, campaign managers without any impediments, which I think should be prohibited.
Again we see the hypocrisy that this subject brings out in so many people.
They are felons so.... So what? If they are not safe to be out in public they should be in jail, if they are safe to be out in public they should have rights. Period. End of story. The way to fix this is black and white, don't let A$$holes that commit serious crimes out of jail until and unless they are reformed. Why is this so hard. Forcable Rape -> life in prison, attempted murder --> Life in prison, Child molestation --> life in prison. You can get paroled but then you better @#$%in' well have to prove you're no longer a criminal first.. Once that parol is over, you should have 100% of it removed. You should have to earn your freedom back. That being said we shouldn't be putting people in jail for the string of stupid $#i! like we keep doing. No more thought crimes and nonsense like selling orchids without a licence. That crap has to end.
gato:
That simple, huh? Did I miss where the line is forming?
livinginthewoods: Thank you for your insightfullness. As for those such as "gato", there are none so blind as those that cannot see.
Debi....that includes those who are holding their hands over their eyes, unwilling to pull them away in order to see what is actually before them. "Blindness" can be catagorized into "those who cant see" and "those who refuse to see", perhaps even "those who only see what they want to see."
We tend to forget that government is for the people. It's our responsibility to notify our representatives with our issues/concerns. We can have petitions drawn and signed to place issues on ballets, etc. Sitting on a message board complaining of crocked politicians is your right, but what have you done to remedy the situation? Who's really the blind one?
gato: My name is on plenty of petitions, referendums, etc., which has come to little fruition.
The problem is, although government is supposed to be "by the people, of the people and for the people", the reality is, the odds of getting the people united enough to demand change is a near impossibility; which the founding fathers had to be fully aware of when they wrote the supposed rights of the people; but in reality, was written for those in power and the elite, including themselves.
I disagree. "Social media" has made it easier for people to get a message out to countless millions of people; it just takes relentless efforts by those wanting the change because the opposition will combat any efforts that appear to be raising eyebrows. "We" are the answers, though.
No Taxation without Representation, If a felon who has done his time and is off parole , and he cannot vote then he should not have to pay any state and or federal taxes period. Make him Tax exempt, we already know they have a hard enough time finding a good job
What is the reality, gato? How many changes using the methods we were given, have actually succeeded? Our right to peacefully protest is continually being met with police force to quash it. When is the last time "the people" have actually chosen their own choice of president and not one who has been spoon fed to us on a silver platter by our "bettors"?
No, it's not impossible, but the odds of the people being able to facilitate a change are about the same as winning the lottery; and those in power know it, so they act with unmitigated impunity.
IndependentinSD: I hear where you are coming from, but we already set up those in society who have made mistakes, for failure. Being convicted of a crime does not force you to give up your citizenship; and every citizen should have equal access to the founding laws of this country and all rights should be restored.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Losing your right to vote is one of the deterrent factors in trying to prevent people from committing felony crimes. If you are convicted of a felony, you should lose your right to vote. It should make people think more than twice about committing heinous crimes. The Constitution defines your legal rights, not your "human rights" so I don't see how taking away a person's right to vote because they commit heinous crimes violates the Constitution, so long as it is done with due process.
Although her position is not popular, I agree with Debi. I am not a felon nor have I ever been, but citizens have inalienable rights and the right to vote is one of them. Going down this road will partially open the road to tyranny. Please reference history to support these statements
Spellchecker I saw that line and it reminded me of the movie "Stripes" when Bill Murray was in the Army recruiters office and was asked if he was ever convicted of a felony and he responeded "Convicted?.......NO..........never convicted"
Debi...what rights have actually succeeded? Woman can now vote, slaves were freed, homosexuals were allowed into the military, Megan's Law, all the Constitutional Amendments since its founding, etc etc etc...............all those initiatives originated with public asking for them and, ultimately, pushing for them.
Don't be so quick to provide excuses; change does not come easily and takes a lot of effort. That's what the politicians are counting on...people getting frustrated with the amount of time and energy necessary for change and quitting. The initiatives that succeed are those in which people were relentless and didn't take "no" for an answer. If you garner enough support they really do "have" to listen because eventually those initiatives awill be placed on ballots.
Im kind of on the middle of this one, but to everyone saying yes they should vote, let me ask you this.
Do you believe that all sex offenders should not have to register, show up on a map, stay away from schools and parks, tell their neighbors, put the sticker up for Holloween, etc? If you believe once you are out, no more punishments and felons should be allowed to vote, then you should also believe in abolishing sex offender registrations.
Are you in favor of this?
FYI...police are tpresent because people have forgotten how to "peacefully" protest.
I agree with your comment regarding the way in which we choose our president, as I believe the time has come for the country to count the popular vote and discard the current system. (I think that's basically what you were stating, if I'm correct.)
I understand your frustration, as I also feel that the cards are stacked against us when we ask for change that benefits us, while minimizing the power of our elected officials. However, that shouldn't mean that we cease our efforts.
I think they should not be allowed to vote as felons. that being said all states have a process to reduce or remove the felon convictions if the person has shown over a period of time that they have changed and are contributing to the benefit of society.
I have two brothers one who has changed and after a number of years applied and has been granted the right to vote and own a fire arm based on his record since paying for his crimes, the other has not show the same level of complying with the laws. and there fore has not and probably will never have those rights restored.
if a person cannot obey the laws then why should they be allowed to influence them.
Dam*n Gtouch. I completely forgot about that line, and I wanted to go with some "never convicted" line. Good job
There is consequences to you actions and we seem to be becoming a society that doesn't want consequences for our actions, they want the government to handle it all. If you really wanted to vote badly enough, you should have thought about it before you committed a crime. This question is just more left wing loonies trying to find more votes for Obama in an election year he has nothing to run on and shouldn't be re-elected. The Dems automatically assume if your poor and or a criminal, you would vote for Obama (i don't know why, he didn't do anything for them in almost 4 years as President). The Dems are also against Voter ID being required to vote, if you need ID to leave the House and walk down the street (required in almost every town in America), what is wrong with showing your ID when you vote to guard against voter fraud. I assume the Dems were counting on the many deceased people that voted for Obama in the last elections and the many voters that voted more than once.
Remember, only FELONS that Committed Felonies aren't allowed to vote. A felony is a serious crime and these laws have been in place for years that a felon cannot vote, they lose the right when they are convicted of a felony. Other criminals can vote and some if they exhibit good behavior after being convicted can have the felony removed (certain plea deals).
the only reason felons cant vote is the same reason the poor who dont have ID cant vote. cuz the goverment is afraid of democrat polticans as poors and felons would vote democrats. i dont think killers or rapist should be allowed to vote but what about the wrongly convicted, drug sellers, users, those ppl are felons to but there not bad ppl. at this point we might as well make it a law only republicans are allowed to be politcans and make jerry sandusky president and binldain vice president. we might as well seeing how far right winged america is getting.
first thought is No they shouldnt be allowed to vote...or have their guns rights back...but if you think about it a little more...as far as voting not guns..if they cant it will make them feel like outsiders to this country and the thought of re offending will be more likely if their treated as out casts...so for those people who might be the next victim of a sociopath I say let them vote so they dont whine ...
If you can't follow the rules you should not be allowed to participate in the process of making them... ever again.
The total and complete loss of voting and right to bare arms is an excellent deterrent to crime. These are not mere misdemeanors we're talking about, these people have demonstrated the willingness to harm life, limb and property, they have taken the most basic rights of others and should never have their own rights restored.
Bernie Madoff? If he ever gets out? Charles Manson... extreme examples of course, but if we open this door, who can be excluded?
just looking at these post its clear that we are doomed for oppression as barely any of you actually know whats in the US constitution and DoI. authorities makes felons by making a law felonious based on nothing but will, there is no criteria to become a felon. there is also no criteria for being a sex offender, you can actually not be around anyone but still be labeled a sex offender, pissing in public even if your not in view will get you a sex offender charge, making a pass at another person can get you charged with being a sex offender, even when you are charged and not convicted you are now labeled a sex offender. laws need to make sense in order for us to be civilized, laws shall not be created as a means of control.
not true at all, our schools get more money than any other country, its not the felons problems the schools cant budget, maybe if we actually put inmates to work instead of giving them luxuries we might see some change but that will never happen.
for the rest that seem to want to punish citizens for life for what the state deems a felony.
once a prisoner has paid his debt to society they are in good standing and are free to enjoy everything this country offers. punishing people for life after you have released them from incarceration and parole is oppression. just because they are a felon does not mean the crime they committed is harmful, a felon can be anything the state deems.
what part of unalienable do you not understand? no one can take our rights away in good standing. the price of freedom is great but far too many people do not want to take that path, instead they want government to be the creator and impose its will on this citizens.
how we have strayed so far....
The Declaration of Independence has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution. The Declaration of Independence was a piece of propganda written to curry favor with European countries and seek them as allies in revolting against the British Crown. The Constitution defines our government and our legal rights as citizens. "Inalienable" human rights are not "constitutional" rights...they are not interchangeable. It is a misconception borne of ignorance to think they are interchangeable or synonymous.
wow, propaganda piece!!!! what a fool you are. the DoI has everything to do with the US constitution, it is the very document that set us free and based on the magna carta, without that declaration we would not have the US constitution and still be part of the crown.
the US constitution does indeed define our government because it was written to create a federal body to ensure our rights are protected. the constitution limits the power of the federal government and spells out what the government CANT do to its citizens' unalienable rights.
no, you are very wrong. the rights in the DoI and in the US constitution are indeed the same rights, handed down by our creator. the DoI is the basis for the US constitution and gives us the power to start over with a new US constitution if the current government became oppressive. the rights listed in the constitution are there to make sure government does not take them away, they dont grant rights.
did you not read this?
I couldn't have said it any better Swagganaut! There are so many Americans so far down the rabbit hole they don't know what the real truth is or what our freedom is all about. We need to get back to the Constitution right now or all is lost. It is pretty sad when a Russian says they have more freedom than we do!
There is no excuse for denying felons the right to vote. They may have been convicted under corrupt or unjust laws that they should have the right to vote against.
If you BUY a DVD and copy it to your iPad to watch on a plane, you may be found guilty of a FELONY for violating the corrupt Digital Millennium Copyright Act. If you argue that felons not should be able to vote, you're arguing that people should be stripped of their citizenship for using products THEY PAID FOR, privately and without harm to any other entity.
Think it through and stand up for yourself before you find yourself on the wrong side of this stupid point of view.
So many people not informed. If you hire an attorney you can get all your rights back. Depending how deep your pockets are you can even own guns, after you've served time for murder. The criminal justice system is a for profit enterprise. Getting more privatised every day. Money people don't serve time in the real sense.
The problem in the USA is that we keep punishing the person over and over and over and over even after they have completed their sentence and their parole. We keep on punishing them into the grave from the look of things.
It seems like we just like to hound people to death to prove a point. When is enough enough? When does the forgiveness bit kicks in? When will the person have completed his/her sentence etc and be accepted back into polite or impolite society so to speak?
Whether prisoner or paroled or free, people should be allowed to vote if they meet the requirement which is that they must be at least 18 and a citizen of this country, because the outcome of an election affects those people too whether they are locked up, on parole or free.
On the other hand if the prisoner is convicted of murder, then that prisoner should not have the right to vote either, as he/she has also been convicted of taking away the now dead person's right to vote permanently imo. The old eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth thing....LOL
Just saying....
Peace.....
Take a look at Japanese law. Once convicted your no longer have rights, you have forfeited them. No library to get your law degree while in, no marriage or conjugal visits. You live life in a very regimented way, arrange your room a certain way, eat a simple meal, work for free, etc. A bit Draconian in other aspects, but not a place you want to go to. There will always be a few people who are innocent, but the majority did the crime and are paying the time. Rights are lost while in jail.
Voting for a President of the United States is not a local or state position so local and state laws should not apply nor impede a state's felon from voting on a federal election level. If a person has violated a federal law then that person should have to follow federal rules and laws that may or may not take away their right to vote on a federal level.
Voting should be restored after successful parole and confirmation that there will be no more criminal activities. These people have learned their lesson and should also be allowed to "legally" own firearms unless a firearm was used in the original crime.
People that commit two armed felonies and other certain felonies (pedophiles, mass murders, etc.) should not be allowed to vote or own firearms, or ever allowed freedom again.
This should be a nationwide and part of the Constitution. A crime once is a shame on you. A crime twice is shame on the public. I also firmly believe in hiring ex-one time felons as they need good jobs just like everyone else. They have paid the price of their crime and should become productive citizens.
Are you seriously just that dumb? If the Declaration of Independence had any legal binding then we wouldn't have had to FIGHT the War of Independence to win our independence from England....we could have just "declared" ourselves independent. The Declaration of Independence is an important piece of our history, to be sure; however, it was crafted and created as a propaganda piece. Read it sometime. The entire thing is written not for England but for the rest of the world. It's purpose was to try to keep other European monarchies from siding with England. It was specifically intended to reach out to France...a country which was also evolving into a more democratic country instead of a monarchy during the "Age of Enlightenment".
You have absolutely no historical context for the DofI....you think it's something it's not. The DofI had and has no legal bearing on anything. The Constitution defines the role of government and your legal rights relative to the government...it does not address "inalienable rights".
Take a remedial civics class at a community college, ffs...you might learn something.
Instead of kissing the _sses of these pieces of garbage, America needs to find it's balls and start treating them like what they are........CRIMINALS. When someone makes the decision to spit in the face of society and break it's laws, they should forfeit their own rights until they pay the price. This country pays too much attention to the "rights" of felons. They shouldn't have any except to be treated humanely. Jails are too nice. We don't owe felons excersize rooms, TV, law libraries, computers, etc. Jails need to be a deterrent. They aren't. People should fear going to jail because it isn't fun.
Dumbest response ever. Do you realize that 1 in 3 people have been convicted of breaking some type of law?
Incarceration is supposed to be rehabilitation, so if one has paid their debt to society why continue to strip their rights?
The trouble is, not all felons are violent or even horrible people. Laws can be outdated or even draconian at times, and you can be convicted of a felony without even harming anyone. I couldn't care less if violent criminals are treated like the scum they are, but until people stop getting jailed for victimless crimes, voter disenfranchisement is a real problem.
Well now, there is the "don't commit crime" aspect that seems to be ignored by the left in these arguments. Nobody forced you to break into that house or steal that car. I think losing voting rights for misdemeanors is extreme, but if you commit a felony... well your vote goes along with your freedom.
You are a fool. Once a person has done their sentence their debt to society has been paid. They should be given back all of their priviledges automatically. There's no need for the state's governor nor legislature to get involved in the process. These are just another backdoor avenue to disenfranchise the poor and racial minorities from their citizenship rights, primarily the right to vote. There should be a uniform set of rules nationwide to determine these things and not tbe left up to the whims of the bigots who constitute many state legislatures or governorships.This issue should be a part of the effort to do away with the new Jim Crow efforts like voter id laws that the gop controlled states have tried to enact since the 2010 elections.
But it this doesn't answer the question of.. once you are released and have paid your debt to society for your mistakes, you get your freedom back, why not the right to vote?
In the current state of things, every felony regardless of what it is for holds a life sentence, as your rights (to vote) are not returned to you.
And if you're wrongly imprisoned? People have been exonerated years, even decades, after the fact when new evidence comes to light, like new DNA technologies, etc. Although they've been released, many of those still have that conviction on their record, plus a gap in employment, that can bar them from having the same rights most Americans have.
Your supposition that every person in prison is a criminal is erroneous. That's like saying that EVERY person the police arrest has to be guilty just because they were arrested.
Well don't be ridiculous!
Of course felons should be able to vote.
After all felons are being elected to office!!
Semantics, Chris, but I agree that they may have their rights reinstated, but not privileges. Your are born with rights but you have to earn privileges. I am not going to immediately congratulate a criminal for serving a prison sentence, that is just the beginning.
Amanda - this is an extreme minority. Most people that are incarcerated actually belong there; the system may be flawed but it is not deficient. That being said, I would favor national uniformity in the law where automatic reinstatement be granted to exonerated inmates upon release.
It disgusts me that this piece tries to illustrate the disparity among states' treatment of the law as racism towards those states having larger-percentage minority prison populations. Felons are felons regardless of skin color - and none of them deserve the right to vote. They forfeited the right to have a say in determining the laws of the land the moment they broke them.
Agreed 100%.
As a naturalized citizen, it was my understanding when I took the Oath of Citizenship that with my citzenship my rights included freedom of speech, religion, etc. but I also understood that those rights had to be paid for with responsibilities like voting, jury duty, etc.
Now, me being a 'former illegal' by virtue of a lost adoption paper, even though I'm now naturalized the government told me I can't expect equality, and I have no choice but to accept that.That being said, however, these felons are most likely natural-born US citizens and therefore those rights and responsibilities are theirs for life unless they choose to emigrate and absolve themselves of the responsibility.
If the government is going to strip them of their responsibility (to vote) and their Constitutional right (like being able to bear arms) then they should absolve them of citizenship. If you're not going to strip them of citizenship then they need to have both the rights and responsibilities thereunto.
Bill Reed, they were treated like criminals. Their sentences are supposed to pay their debt to society, yet they continue to be punished.
But you don't get all of your freedoms back. A felon typically can't own a gun for instance. I'm really not sure it's wise to allow someone who has shown such poor judgment as to become a felon the chance to vote automatically.
Chris Gilliard said: "Once a person has done their sentence their debt to society has been paid. They should be given back all of their priviledges automatically."
So you are saying that when a child molester gets out of jail they should be free to open a day care center. Multiple accidents while drunk driving? Here's your license, do it again! Just because they "did their time" doesn't necessarily mean they are rehabilitated. I have caught a little of reality TV, haven't you?
I have always thought the biggest sign someone was a troll was when they spout out a bunch of angry hatefull nonsense and then don't even bother to reply to any of the responses to said bull@!$%#.
@Chris "You are a fool. Once a person has done their sentence their debt to society has been paid. They should be given back all of their priviledges automatically. There's no need for the state's governor nor legislature to get involved in the process. These are just another backdoor avenue to disenfranchise the poor and racial minorities from their citizenship rights, primarily the right to vote"
You sir are trully ignorant. Do you think being poor or being a minority preordains you to crime? Crime is a choice. It is a choice to either live by the law or break the law. The color of your skin has NOTHING to do with those choices.
I grew up in a predominately black and dirt poor neighborhood. When my friends were stealing, I chose not to. When they were doing drugs and drinking 40s, I chose not to. When they were mugging people, I chose not to. When they were starting fires, I chose not to. Lived in the same neighborhood. Same poverty. Same choices. The only difference is I made the right choices. And you seem to forget there are more basic, fundamental rights a human being has than voting. They have a right to live, not be sexually assaulted, preyed upon, robbed, or the host of other bullsht felons do without care for THOSE BASIC RIGHTS of their victims. So spare me and the rest of us law abiding folks the poor poor criminal garbage.
There is a great deal of ignorance here. For those that think jail or prison isn't bad, you are mistaken. Too much media I guess... There should be a reasonable amount of time to restore the right to vote, that is consistent for all states. Not all felons and/or people that have been convicted of crimes are "thugs". Sometimes people make mistakes and get caught, many don't.
@Bill Reed - Have you been to jail or prison? Or, just watched 20/20 or Dateline on TV about it? Unless you've been there, you can't understand how much of a bad experience it really is. I believe to reasonable folks, it's a very effective deterrent.. Sure, there "career" criminals that don't learn or care about their future, but there are many others that have been in a bad situation or made a stupid mistake and do not want to be there again, ever!
Repaying a debt to society encompasses much more than serving time; for every one of our tax dollars that are utilized to incarcerate a felon, one less dollar is utilized for educating our children. Repay your incarceration costs, court fees, parole fees, drug treatment fees (paid for by most states from tax revenue), and resitution owed to the victim FIRST; prove that you are truly rehabilitated by truly "repaying your debt to society". In chosing to lead a life of crime they willingly infringed upon the rights of others; they either directly victimized an individual/s or they indirectly victimized society financially by having us pay for their incarceration and all additional costs incurred by their poor decision (family on welfare, etc.).
Will the Watcher.......thank you for saying that! I was starting to think that I was the only person who felt that way!
Careful there catman, it is an awful long fall from up on top of that high assed horse.
Not at all, livinginthewoods. If a person makes the correct decision and lives life the way you're suppose to then there's no fall at all. It's really rather simple philosophy to follow; I don't surround myself with losers, nor do I put myself in situations where I have to chose between committing a crime or adhering to the law...to me it's a no-brainer. Don't minimize one's own responsibility in knowing the difference between right and wrong within their actions; that's the problem with today's society...........it's too quick to place the blame other than where it belongs.
chrisinaz...with a nation recidivism rate of 70%, apparently the "reasonable folks" are the exception. You can call me crazy, but one could say that the "reasonable folks" are those who aren't committing crime. The facts are that there are very few "instant offense" crimes, and the majority of criminals have been given ample opportunity to address their issues. By the time a criminal sees the inside of a prison, they've already been arrested numerous times and provided opportunities to address their behaviors through probation, diversion, etc.. If they really wanted to change they would; crying after the courts have finally said "enough is enough" is too late.
"once they have done their time they should have everything back". that attitude is why we have so many repeat offenders and you here in the news of people committing crimes to be able to go to jail. life is too easy for them.
I like the ten city idea in Arizona. in the 1800 if you did a crime you paid big time for it. hard work and nothing else. there were very few repeat offenders then because nobody wanted to go back and those who heard how bad it was didn't want to go there to begin with. so lower crime. now it is commit a felony and be out in a few months and go do it again. I see it on my street and people wonder how things get so bad.
When I was 23 yrs old I grew 3 marijuana pants in NH (a zero tolerance state). I did 2 1/2 yrs incarceratin and 5 yrs probation. I am 44 and still not allowed to vote!
The law not allowing a felon to vote Is punnishing many people for THE REST OF THEIR LIVES for stupid crimes that they have long since paid for. I have to pay taxes but I have no say in how they are spent or who spends them. Sounds a little like taxation without representation to me.
Some states allow people who arent even citizens to vote but I cant. Its just not right!
do you know the difference between a right and a privilege? voting is a right, owning firearms is a right, free expression/speech is a right, travel is a right. getting government assistance is a privilege, electricity is a privilege, sewage, water treatment, gas, all privileges.
a police officer can go into anyone's home and fine at least one felony that will put you away for 5-10 years if not more, you can also be labeled a domestic terrorist from just the contents of your house. these are based on the current laws passed by politicians only, while your intent may not to use any of these things to commit a crime, nonetheless it makes you a potential criminal according to law. there are lots of laws that the government has no power to make law -like drug use, private sale and possession, suicide, abortion, sex laws, marriage, etc but yet they managed to pass these oppressive laws for their own power.
you musta been oh so dangerous to be a convicted felon for pot plants, i sure wouldnt want to meet you in a dark alley :P
being a felon does not mean you are a danger to society, it just means the state wants more power.
At 23 years old you should have known better.
Yep... gato and jesus christ the only two perfect humans to ever walk the earth.
SteveO,
Don't know what group you hang with, but I know way more than 3 people and NONE out of every 3 have been convicted, not even in our families. Not sure where you are getting your stats, or the people pool.
onlyyou can change the laws,
Before lashing at Gato consider this. There are others of us who have made good choices in life. We are not perfect, we just are smart enough to do the right thing.
Living In the Woods,
So you have a problem with those of us like Will the Watcher that made the right choices when temptation came along? Why, what is the real issue with you? You act like we are on "high horses" but we are not. The reality is, like Will said, we chose not to. Why does that seem to bother you so much that you have to try to tear us down?
Gato/Will the Watcher - I am the with you. That has been my life experience. We are responsible for ourselves. "True freedom is self-control."
This country is afraid to let felons vote .... Felons know how "Unfair & Unjust" the criminal justice system is!
With 2.3 million people locked up in our prisons, we lead the world in the numbers behind bars ... We have created a entire economic sector of prisons ... with incentives to cities states and local government to find ways to lock people up for profit .. build jails instead of schools ...
If you make enough "Unfair & Unjust" laws ... and convict enough innocent people, you can lock anybody up behind bars ...So that others may benefit by their incarceration ...
How many is enough before you realize who the real criminals are ?
But By The Grace Of God Go ......YOU!
The felons created this universe of American thuggery. It's why every citizen needs double locks on the doors of their home, car alarms, and mace in the purse of every female. As well as why no child can ride their bike in their neighborhood or even play in their own front yard. And women, who lead men in being both victims and in paying more in taxes, get slammed twice as hard, since they also still only earn .78 to the male worker dollar. The least our society can do is make sure these cost inefficient lowlifes stay in prison as long as possible till they grow a remorseful spine and can come to terms with how much of a drain they and their poor decisions are on good citizens. Giving them the right to elect government officials who determine laws and judges and law enforcement penalties is just plain stupid.
I would say there is nothing plain about it. It is a complected subject and trying to simplify it is counterproductive at best. You must be a conservative, simplifying complex problems is their number one play.
Who the stupid one here is, is highly debatable.
I would also say the legitimization of moneygrubbing and greed is what has created this "universe of American thuggery".
You sound incredibly afraid. Try not watching the local news, it's not nearly as bad out there as they make it out. I have not worried about locking my door since I moved away from the city over 5 years ago.
Comment voted up Moonbeamracer.
livinginthewoods...you're correct in your statement: "it's not nearly as bad out there as they make it out." It's far worse than reported, as there isn't enough time in a local news slot to adequately notify citizens what is actually going on in their neighborhoods.
LOL.. Trying to make this out like it is a complex problem is nonsense at its finest. We should not allow criminals that we do not trust with full rights out of jail, ever. By rights I mean owning a gun or living near a school or voting. If you wouldn't trust the released murderer with a gun why would you trust him to be a part of society or even with a vote? And no you have no right to vote in this country. States can determine which president get their electorates by drawing straws out of a hat or spinning a bottle, or by having puxatony phil point to one, whatever... God I wish people weren't so dumb. This world is made up of 99% morons with no education at all.
Yes Moonbeam. You are so right. Most people are deluded by the media and movies. They do not realize how incredibly unjust and unfair the criminal laws are. They do not realize that they are probably committing crimes on a daily basis, but just have not got caught. The sentences are too long, and the crimes are too broadly defined. The cops have too much power to "create" a crime out of nothing. Take obstructing justice, for example. A cop can just say it, and the person in screwed for life. It is out of control. Mostly, it is out of control because of the ignorance of the average Joe who would rather continue to live in his polyanna world of fantasy and delusion, instead of facing the harsh realities. That is, until he is put in the slammer for speeding with his children in the car which is a felony called child abuse. That's a 4 year prison sentence. Most idiots don't even realize that they are felons on a daily basis. Basically, the cops can arrest anyone at anytime for anything. This needs to change.
being a felon does not mean you hurt anyone, its just a state label to take power. you have been conditioned to automatically treat felons as dangerous regardless of their crime.
Laws that are not agreed upon by the majority of all citizens should not be written!
And I should be taller and have more hair.
We are a democratic republic. Laws that are written/passed/enacted should be fair for, and apply to, EVERYONE irregardless of whether they are the majority or the minority. A true democracy would be the majority making the laws for everyone but we aren't a true democracy, as Ben Franklin and our Founding Fathers saw the Rule of the Majority being abused in England and were determined that the US didn't fall into the same pitfall.
That being said, however, do we pass rules like that? Yes, we do. In my municipality there is a law on the books placed there in the late 1800's that mandates a fine for cursing in public. Although the majority voted on it, and it actually still is on the books today, to my knowledge it has never been enforced and there would be massive public outcry if it were--practically everyone over the age of three, and some under it, have cursed in public, even our lawmakers and especially our cops (and if it were to be enforced, we would have a budget surplus rather than a deficit!!!)
On the other hand, we do pass laws according to the will of a minority that would not reflect the will of the majority. The most recent example of this would be the NDAA for FY2012, with its 'indefinite detention without charge or trial' clause, and much more quietly and still more recently, the passage of HR347, the Restricted Grounds Act, which states that anyone on restricted government grounds without lawful permission, even for purposes of peaceful, lawful acts of public disobedience, are subject to fine and imprisonment (in other words, you can't have a sitdown protest or peaceful march on government property or in front of a government office anymore without advance permission from authority inside said property/building.)
While the majority of comments I've seen on this topic have been overwhelmingly in favor of our Constitutional right to peaceably protest wherever the people see fit, the law still got passed earlier this year.
TWOG
Well that sounds good and all but, if that were the case then we would have practically no laws at all.
Murder, rape and, theft would be the only things against the law. Hmmmm... maybe your are on to something!
you wanna know why laws like that get passed? It is because of stupid arguments over subjects like whether or not a felon should be able to vote! It is all smoke and mirrors, if people would quit worrying about idiotic ideas like this and actually pay attention to the elected officials and the policies they are pushing to be enacted. While the government/media (yes, they are one in the same) engage the public into discussions like this, they go off and take away the REAL rights of REAL citizens. If you can make a decision to commit a crime, then you take WHATEVER comes along with that said crime. As the old saying goes, "if you can't do the time, don't commit the crime!" And by the way, there is no such word in the English language as irregardless.
I agree with you hoolie except irregardless is, in-fact, now a word.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless
the US constitution disagrees with you
Article. IV.
Section. 4. The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government,and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened),against domestic Violence.
democracy is not what our founders wanted as they knew it was a failure, the differences are subtle but clear. democracy creates oppression through votes.
This country is one if not the only civilised country left that goes by the totally archaic principal of . once a felon ALWAYS a felon.
It's not the concept that's outdated. It's the arbitrary definition of "felon".
Because we are the only industrialized nation with so many of them, who generally keep at their chosen career path that destroys the lives of so many good, honest people. The U.S. needs to address why so many American males commit crimes.
Well, it's a bit off topic but to answer the question of why American males commit so many crimes, I would look to two areas.
1. Ridiculous drug laws that turn otherwise decent people into felons.
2. A school system that brands every child that is not an academic success on the way to college, a failure.
Just my two cents on that issue. Wanna fix the country? Dismantle the DEA and ATF and put all the money into public education.
@livinginthewoods
I agree with you. It's ridiculous drug laws that have a lot of American males behind bars. It makes no sense that a child molester gets a less severe punishment than someone who possessed a baggie of weed. Or a person who is in possession of crack cocain gets more time than a person in possession of cocain in its powder form.
"Ridiculous drug laws that turn otherwise decent people into felons." is a pretty vague statement. If you're talking about "marijuana laws" then I'd tend to agree, providing a person isn't selling. If you're talking about cocaine, heroin or methamphetamine then I'd have to strongly disagree. Methamphetamine is the fast growing drug, due largely in part to the ease in which it's made and it's low cost. However, a meth addict typically resorts to theft/burglary in order to facilitate their addiction.
The DEA and ATF are needed, although may to be tinkered with a bit. One only needs to look at the country on our southern border to realize what would happen if they were dismantled. I agree that much more funding needs to be allocated towards education though; a proper education builds self-esteem and provides direction, which is a huge deterent to crime. How many perents read to their children these days, or review their child's homework? Just because our school systems are lacking doesn't mean that education can't come from other areas (parents).
If they were dismanteled we wouldn't have any issue looking over our boarder at all. Pot would be controled by big business and we'd get off the nonsense that the goverment has a right to tell us what we can do with out own bodies.
Oh you Druggie supporters, wake up! Please! Everyone can do what they want with their bodies. Cool! Then you wouldn't mind if your surgeon does a little Coke the day before your brain surgery. Its his right and won't affect your surgery at all. He'll be so sharp and on it. Your mechanic is a frackin' pothead, screws up your brakes and you wreck becoming a veg for life, but hey it's his right. On and on... There are good reasons why drugs are illegal. The effects of drugs and even the legal drug alcohol affects peoples work, takes away innocent lives in accidents, etc. If they aren't working then we the tax payers are supporting them on welfare becuase they can't get their stuff together to care for themselves. We'll send them all to your house so they can do what they want with their own bodies and you can support them, keep them from driving under the influence...
an EX- felon cant vote but its ok to run accross the country in a bus with no papers/ no fear and brag about it.
Or be in big government in washington.
Like that tax cheat,
I agree with you both.
Letting ex felons and prisoners, even in jail for life, was a big initiative of Teddy Kennedy since he know 90% of them would vote for Democrats. Now 27% of the prison population of CA and 20% of the federal prison population are illegal alines and can't vote (although I am sure the Democrats are trying to find a way to let illegal aliens vote). No voting for prisoners or ex felons.
I think letting currently incarcerated inmates vote and never letting ex felons vote are equally extreme sides of the argument.
I think inmates should be required to work a regular 40 hour 5 day work week with no compensation to help pay for their living and pay for their crimes and absolutely no right to vote or get married. Five or ten years after they have completed parole, they should get every right that you and I have, back.
Seems to me this is a middle of the road policy and exactly the kind of thing we need to see more of in this country, compromise somewhere between the two extremes.
Think about it .... inmates cost society, on the average $32,000 dollars a year to keep incarcerated! .. to make it easy I'm going to round that number up to what it will cost in five years in the future .. $3000. a month....
We are spending $3000 per month on incarcerating every human being in our jails ... $3000 A month per person !... Thats more than many here earn a month ..
How much do we spend per child a month in our schools and we wonder what wrong?
The only people that are benefiting financially are those connected with the criminal justice system ... and they are getting rich off our backs ..
People in jails are the poorest people in or country ... they have so little its hard for you to imagine! Those that have families that will give them $10 dollars a month for the bare essentials, tooth paste, deodorant, etc are more appreciative than my own children when I gave them educations, cars & money...
Everyday they spend there they are getting more disconnected from their family & society .... in a very short period (a couple of years) they become accustomed to the society they live in, they have to if they want to survive ... they talk about getting out, and they want to leave, but by the time that day arrives ... most of them are alone and full of doubt...
In Virginia where I live, when that day arrives the state gives them $25 and a bus ticket .....
Now what would you do .. all alone ... with $25 in your pocket and trying to start again? ... No friends, nowhere to go ... just $25 ...
The truth is our penal system is failing all of us ... they have little hope of surviving in a contemporaneity world , they simply aren't equipped for it. Most will commit another crime in a short time, a crime of desperation ... to get back where they are comfortable. They won't tell anyone that .. but its a fact.
It would be cheaper for the state to offer "Re-Up Money" if they would sign a agreement to "Re-Up" they would get $500 dollars in their commissary account and just stay in jail ... but the state wouldn't do that ... they need to run them through the justice system ..just to keep it going ..like a well oiled machine.
And you talk about making them pay back the cost of the criminal justice system & cost of their incarnation .... How? ... if they find a job ... Thats a big if .... they will barely earn enough to exist ..
It's in all of our interest to for them to remain in society and not be reincarnated ...every month they are out of the penal system, they are saving us $3000!
When these people .. and many of them are our relatives ... that we have known and loved ... just get a grip on life ... we should be proud .. they have been through so much ..
My last thoughts .... Have you ever considered that the millions that are incarcerated aren't on the unemployment roles or even counted in the employment statistics?
Is our government using incarceration as a way to keep the numbers from being farther off balance?
I am over seventy years old and I have watched this nation turn from a nation of "Opportunity" with pride in the liberty of its people ... to a near "Police State" with Fascist tendencies in the name of security ...
Felons released from penal servitude should be allowed to vote in elections ... regardless of their political afflictions ... (smile) my apologies for being so long winded ..
moonbeamracer....the disenchantment you speak of in regards to alienation from family is self-inflicted. Don't do the crime and you don't have to do the time.
The response of a mental midget ....
Moonbeamracer,Add the correctional officers wages,benefits and pensions into the mix and that is the real cost of housing inmates.California doesn't rehab people,they keep them in a revolving door because the correctional officers union backs every initiative on the ballots that make dumb things a felon.
Hey Moonbeam, very well thought out post. You are right they rescind because they'd starve to death if they didn't. Then we are back to spending $3000 per month for every prisoner. Better to put them in a half way house for the final portion of their incarceration at half the cost so they can get acclimated or back with family. In my community there are hundreds of youth that are virtually unemployable. Why, marijuana possession charges. So what do they do (because most end up on probation or with very short jail stays) they hang out and figure out ways to make money, quess what they don't have a lot of options. Now as to voting; this particular group is too darn stupid to vote!
I am 65 years old,,when a teenager I was convicted of a felony,I have lived my life as a good tax paying law abiding citizen,never in any trouble with the law.Should I not have the right to vote ?
well rjs I got in alot of trouble when I was 17...since it happened while I was under 18 I was able to ab sponge it from my record...
moonbeamer.....a typical response from an enabler
After reading all of these posts, I have to say Iv'e never seen so much ignorance in one place in my life. The majority of you folks need to get off your high horse. You act as if you have never made a bad choice or mistake EVER. Sometimes people become desperate or stressed and make bad choices not fully understanding the consequences that may come from those actions. A person convicted of a felony should be able to vote after completing any probation/ parole. End of story, they have paid their debt to society. They went to jail/prison AS PUNISHMENT. When you are released you "should" be given a second chance. What is a person that is convicted of a felony supposed to do for work/ career then? If all of you narrow minded people wont allow them to vote then you most certainly would never hire one to employ right? You complain about it costing $30,000 a year to house them what is a felon supposed to do to support themselves and family?what good is a bachelors/masters degree when YOU discriminate against them? Oh that's right you don't care., once a felon always a felon right? If they make a mistake at 18 years old they should carry that cross for the next 65 years right? Unbelievable people, wake up.
AB037 Not sure where you got the idea that anyone thinks they should never have a chance once out. Majority of posts are saying that while in prison they should not vote. Sorry, but in reality employeers are understandably leery of prior felons. But, they do get hired. Not the potheads so much, but murder, other things yes. Comes with making a bad choice. The reason why some of us make bad choices and others go through life clean is very complex.
Is this really a question? But yet we just last week - Should you have to show an ID to vote. LOl, well do we house illegals in our prison too? Gimme a break!
'Felon disenfranchisement'....hilarious. They disenfranchised themselves when they broke the law.
So you catch a ride with your buddy in his new car only to find out AFTER your pulled over that his new car isn't really his!!!! Well you've just earned yourself a felony GTA charge and your voting rights are GONE! No one is going to believe that you were picked up hitchhiking so even though you broke no actual laws yourself just because you had bad choice in friends YOUR paying for it! When felons do their time they should get their rights as citizens back.
LOL You haven't earned anything. If you didn't know then you didn't know and violated no law. You have to fight and usually that means a good lawyer.
Very naive statement Nora.
And why was this collapsed? There are name calling personal attacks not collapsed, but this is? JG is pretty dead on. Looks like there is no free discussion on this vine...outta here.
JG-1944222 Comment collapsed by the community
'Felon disenfranchisement'....hilarious. They disenfranchised themselves when they broke the law.
who do want running the country ? crooks and felons, then let them vote,,since crooks already run the country.
I'm still waiting on Romney's tax returns to see if he's a crook and just took the amnesty that the IRS gave.
I'm still waiting on Obama's birth certificate to see if he's a crook and just gave amnesty to a million because he understands them more than we really realize.
well Obama is gonna win cause the state of the economy has people pissed at the rich so no one wants someone who is gonna deregulate and cause the problem all over again and drop taxes on the rich..not to mention their gonna screw around with medicare...Romney should just go find his second wife and make some kids who can spend his money when they get old enough...
Felons should be allowed to vote after they have completed parole or probation. That's how it's done in Georgia and it's fair. Not everyone who commits a felony is a "piece of garbage." Lot's of people get hooked on prescription medications and end up with felony convictions. That's a lot different than someone who commits a violent crime.
I agree. I think there must be nothing worse that choosing to change your life, deciding to take the right path, only to be treated as the bad person you once were for the rest of your life. Society must make room for the ex-cons who want to be good, productive citizens, and give them a chance to move on.
Just another way to suppress the the vote,why should a person after paying their debt to society not have the right to vote. If you drink and drive yes you should loose your license. if you commit a felony you should loose a lifetime of voting privileges. Notice how one makes sense and the other do not.
Would have been nice if NBC had linked to the report where these figures come from. So for those wanting to read facts:
http://sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/fd_State_Level_Estimates_of_Felon_Disen_2010.pdf
It is definitely eye-opening when you see the disparity between states.
#12 Agreed
There should be consistency among the states in regard to individual rights.
How elections are conducted are state's rights, who can vote shouldn't be decided by the individual states.
actually it should be all about state's rights..this would work in a way that if you didnt like what was being put into law you could go to another state....soon you would have all the liberals in certain states and all the conservative in certain states...then they can only blame themselves if they fail....
Cry me a river, whiner. "Voluntary" manslaughter = voluntarily giving up your rights. Tough sh*t.
NO and NO. You're in jail/prison for a reason. You gave up your right to vote when those bars closed behind you.
All I really got out of the article, 'oh, the poor black man'. You break the law, pay the price....color be damned.
That is funny..because the article is about my family, and we are white.
Well don't be ridiculous!
Of course felons should be able to vote.
After all felons are being elected to office!!
I don't think anyone should be allowed to vote while in prison or on parole. But once the individual has been out of prison for a year, is off parole, and has not committed any further crimes, that person should have their voting rights restored. If we want ex-cons to become productive citizens, and those ex-cons want to become productive citizens, restoring their right to vote is a good step in the right direction.
Since voting is a right, not a privilege, the laws should have automatic restoration of voting rights after a year of good behavior on the outside. This should not be something that has to go through the legislature or signed by the governor. If anyone feels the ex-con should not have that right restored, then it should go through a process to be revoked.
80% of ex felons will become prisoners within 3 years so this effort is a waste of time. Crime is all they know or care about.
Its not just about numbers and statistics, those other 20% are people.
yes they ARE people.......convicted felons. Guess what...they earned the title.
The felon in chief needs these votes.
Mitt's not president YET! And we're still not SURE if he's a felon or not because he won't show his tax returns, he MIGHT have taken the IRS Amnesty!
Two issues come up for me, both are after felons have served their time. This country was founded because of taxation without representation. If the felons are paying taxes, then they have every right to vote. Second, if a state do not allow felons to vote then that state should lose that population from their representation counts.
That's a good point. Then again, they were not paying taxes while in prison. They were living of the taxes of others. So, as far as being taxpayers, they are in debt to society financially, even if they've paid their price with their time.
Having said that, whether you can vote or not should not be a financial decision. Even if you own a ton of money to pay restitution, your voting rights should be restored based on your bahavior. As long as you are making payments, you can vote. Otherwise, only wealthy ex-cons would get their rights back.
Felons serving a sentence: No. This includes out-on-parole and sentence-suspended.*
Corporations: No. They're not people.
*Unless one is convicted of vote fraud, then no, you never get to even register again.
Depends on the nature of the crime. Do we as a society really want muderers, rapists and pedophiles chosing our elected officials? On the other hand, those who have paid their debt for non-violent crimes should not be denied once they have completed their time/probation.
Right and can felons run for congress. I remember McCain being reprimanded by congress for trying to influence congress and his partner in crime was sent to jail. Then he ran for president later. And they are worried about one person voting that had a felony. In fact I think Traficant ran for office after he was in prison for years. If a person can run for congress with any kind of record, then people should be able to vote no matter what. Not while they are in jail of course. But after they are released.
Oh yes right by all means leave felony’s vote but make sure you remove the vote from law abiding citizens you know we really do have to watch those 80 and 90 year olds who is voting using false ID, Not to mention the majority vote lord how many of them never owned a vehicle so had no reason to ever get a driver’s license and look out for those students that do not have a expiration date on their student ID, which by the way member of congressional congress also does not have a expiration date on their ID either.
Mickey Edwards (R-OK) FMR. U.S. Congressman
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46979745/#48959914
The republicans new mantra. If you can't win, cheat, rig the vote and block the vote anyway you can. No wonder everything gets in such a mess when they are in office. No matter if the presidency or the house or senate. And I wish if you committed voter fraud like some of the repubs who wanted to prove you can, you can never vote again! That would frost them wouldn't it. But I am sure they would find a way to make an exception. And I couldn't believe the crassness of Ann Romney today when I heard her saying Romney needs to be elected to change history because a black man was elected last time and it changed history. Well only halfway Ann. He is half white. Why didn't you say his white half was elected? Unbelievable. And Iam not half as worried about Romney and his religion although many think it is a cult than I am about Ryan who went into pubic office because of a russian atheist. That is unacceptable! Even though he only relies on her for the economy now! So we have an atheist economy where you are for business rather than individuals. Right on. But no!
Are you 16 years old or a Crackhead or both?
BOOHOO! If you can't do the crime don't do the time. Almost none of the people I have ever known have committed a felony. Perhaps those who have exhibit a chacter flaw that should keep them from ever voting.
I like that you tried to use a trite and simplistic aphorism, yet managed to mess it up.
Tom, thank you so much for the wonderful belly laugh this morning!! Hambone, he didn't just mess it up, he obliterated it! And then to say that character flaws should keep people from voting was even funnier!
If one has completed ones sentence, .. served their time, including parole and probation , paid their fines and restitution, .. then they should be granted their right to vote as well. Otherwise the notion of "paying ones dent to society" is hollow.
The difficulty is there are certain things that one should be forever excluded from if they do commit a felony. Like owning a gun, .. being care givers for children or the elderly, .. managing other peoples money. To say that just because one has served ones time doesn't nor should it completely absolve one from their actions. Defining that line as to what rights should and shouldn't be restored and which should and in which cases is where things get sticky. What should not be debatable is ones right to vote.
If we want convicted criminals who have completed their sentence to behave like productive members of society then, within reason, they should be given everything that society offers with all it's responsibilities AND rights. Again, if they've completed their sentence than they've earned that it, .. nothing is being given to them. Hence the notion of paying ones debt to society. The notion that criminals would ban together as a political group and perhaps even form that own PAC and undermine the judicial system is idiotic.
Felon’s had a choice and they for whatever reason choose, so if they did not know they were giving up rights maybe they should have re-thought long before the crime not after the fact. As it is now criminals in this country rights are protected far more then the victims are.
So does this also hold true for felon's as you but it “If one has completed ones sentence, Served their time, including parole and probation, paid their fines and restitution,” also be able to have all their Constitutional rights back including owning a gun, or be hired by any company or business or become a member of the military or hold a government position to me all this is the same thing. Sorry I do not think so.
"By reporting the oppinions of people, it keeps one in touch with the ignorance in our community" Oscar Wilde.............Not one argument for a Felon losing their right to vote that I have read hasn't either begged the question, committed an Ad Hominem, or been so syllogistically vacuous in their reasononing that I have absolutely come to the conclusion that we are a bunch of ignorant sheeple who think nothing beyond what is in front of them. Has noone considered that in the Goverments attempt at making voting a priviledge to the few, that so many laws which make you a Felon are on the books which sure the hell don't leave out the Harvard Grad whose father is a senator?????????? You can be a felon for spitting, yelling, walking naked in your own house.... resisting arrest when there is no reason for arrest and no basis to arrest. STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPID YOU ALL SO STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPID~ UHF Do you really think that Governments newest round of game play by labeling sex offenders as such for nothing more than a 17 year old having consensual sex with a 16 year old is enough to make them register? Or a 14 year old girl whi is a sex offender because she took newd pics of a minor "HERSELF" to show to her bf on phone? When my neighbor threatens to kick the others ass he is charged with "terrorist threats." SHeeple Sheeple Sheeple use your damn heads. This is sooooooooooooooo not black and white. But hey, so be it....voting for a douch or turd is a tough one. Considering less than half vote anyways, I don't see the majority ever having a say in politics. And Thank God for that. "If only all of Rome had one neck" ~ Caligula
Of course felons vote, along with dead democrats, how do you think the felons in orifice got there? There are republifelons, democratifelons, and independent felons, well, maybe not completely independent.