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Subscribe to RSSIn Ohio, a battleground state, thousands of former employees of General Motors' principal parts supplier, Delphi, blame the Obama administration for the deep cuts to their pension. NBC's Lisa Myers reports.
At first glance, David Kane, 63, appears to be solidly middle class. He has a home on a lovely suburban street in Sandusky, Ohio, and a boat docked in the nearby marina.
But looks can be deceiving. Kane doesn’t have television or even a functioning wristwatch. He and his wife Dianne live on their boat, a 1976 Trojan Tri-Cabin in need of repair, for part of the year to save on utility costs. He does outdoor maintenance at the marina to pay for the docking fees.
After a 35-year career at Delphi, the primary parts supplier for General Motors, Kane expected retirement to look much different. He left the company at age 54 as it was downsizing, and he was offered a buyout.
But in 2009, Kane received word that, as part of the bailout to save General Motors, the pensions that he and 20,000 fellow Delphi salaried employees were promised would be reduced 30 to 70 percent.
Kane lost almost half his pension and now receives only $1,600 a month. He says it has been devastating. “It’s just a beat down, day in and day out, to struggle to get through.”
What makes it more difficult is that other Delphi workers who worked alongside Kane, members of the powerful United Auto Workers union, did not suffer the same fate. They are receiving their full pensions.
When the government stepped in to bail out GM, providing a total of $50 billion from taxpayers, it also had to deal with Delphi, which already was in bankruptcy, because GM needed Delphi’s parts to build its cars. In the process, Delphi’s pensions were handed over to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBCG), a government-backed entity that insures private pensions. The PBCG terminated the pension plans, which were underfunded at the time.
Then General Motors did something that the Government Accountability Office, Congress’ investigative arm, later called “unusual.” GM agreed to top up the pensions of 22,000 Delphi members of the United Auto Workers union – at a cost of $1 billion. That enabled the UAW workers to still get their full pensions.
But there was no such sweetener for the company’s salaried employees or for the non-UAW hourly workers. And because the PBGC has statutory limits on how much it can pay in benefits, their payments were reduced sharply.
“We were the group that was just kicked to the curb like yesterday’s trash,” said Bruce Gump, vice-chairman of the Delphi Salaried Employees Association.
Now, two congressional committees and the Special Inspector General for the Troubled Asset Recovery Program (SIGTARP) are investigating the basis and motivation for this decision. Was this a political favor for a powerful union that backed President Barack Obama, as critics claim? Or was this a business decision by GM, based, according to the company, on an agreement originally negotiated in 1999 during Delphi’s spin off from the automaker? What role did the Obama administration play?
Inspector General Christy Romero, has said she’s looking into “whether the (administration’s) auto task force pressured GM to provide additional funding for those pensions.”
In a later agreement with the new GM, two other unions, IUE and USWA, were also topped up. Members of the Delphi Salaried Employees Association say they do not begrudge the union retirees their pensions, because they earned them. The salaried workers just want equal treatment, and they want answers from the government.
Retirees hard hit by ‘broken promises’
Mary Miller, a divorced mother of four who worked at GM and Delphi for over 31 years, said the hit to her pension caused a true hardship.
“It's a struggle every day, and every time anything breaks, it's a near disaster,” she said, adding that she hasn’t had a working dishwasher for two years.
Miller had been counting on her full pension to help her start new career as a life coach.
“My plan was, ‘OK, I have a pension and I have health care. And I have a son in high school and sons in college -- and a daughter also. But if we live very simply, I can make that pension stretch so that I can really have my dream.”
Miller started the business anyway, but she says it is growing slowly because of the economy.
Miller has a friend, a former colleague at Delphi with whom she worked closely for several years in the same role, though he was paid hourly while she was drawing a salary. She can’t understand why he was treated differently.
“What made the work that that person did more valuable than the work I did? What was greater about the promise he received when he went to work for GM and Delphi than what I was told?”
Gump, who worked for General Motors and Delphi for almost 33 years and was a senior engineer when he retired, lost about 30 percent of his pension.
“Inside our organization we have lots of people that have seen their homes foreclosed,” he said. “They’ve had to declare personal bankruptcy. There’s been some families that have broken up over the stress associated with this. There’s even been a couple suicides.”
The DSRA retirees are a politically diverse group – Republicans, Democrats and Independents – but regardless of political stripe, many of them believe the Obama administration betrayed them. Howard Collins, a Democrat, said he voted for Barack Obama in 2008 but isn’t sure he would do so again.
“I don't know if I will decide until I actually go in the voting booth,” he said.
Did the government pick winners and losers?
As senior advisor on auto issues at the Treasury Department, Ron Bloom led the administration’s Auto Task Force. He insists the government was not involved in GM’s individual decisions but simply approved the overall plan as being viable and based on commercial rather than political considerations.
“What I think is a fair surmise is that General Motors made a judgment that there was a commercial necessity for treating the UAW the way they did,” says Bloom. There was concern that the unions might interfere with the flow of parts from Delphi to the auto company, which could harm new GM. Topping up the union pensions ensured the work would continue.
“The UAW had commercial leverage in this case, which they utilized.”
Bloom now says he feels for the Delphi workers. “There's no making it nice. There's no saying it's OK. The only thing one can say is that it was done in a responsible and fair way relative to the rules of the road in a bankruptcy.”
His position was echoed by Treasury Spokesman Anthony Coley, who told NBC News, "As has been exhaustively documented, Treasury's consistent approach to the auto restructuring was to defer to GM's business judgment and not approve or disapprove individual business decisions. While the GM restructuring involved painful concessions from all stakeholders, President Obama's decision to stand behind GM and the American auto industry saved more than a million jobs."
But Bruce Gump, the Delphi salaried workers representative, calls that justification a “smoke screen.”
“I believe that what really happened was that this administration simply wanted to take care of their political base,” he said.
The administration has turned over thousands of documents related to Treasury’s discussions between GM, Delphi and the PBGC, but not to the satisfaction of members of the House Oversight Committee, House Ways and Means Committee, or attorneys for the salaried Delphi employees They accuse the Treasury Department of stonewalling and withholding key documents.
Ron Bloom and key Task Force members Harry Wilson and Matthew Feldman refused to be interviewed by the special investigator general of TARP about the Delphi pension decisions for almost a year, until July, when they were called to testify before a house subcommittee. Rep. Mike Turner, R-Ohio, called their refusal to answer questions “a happy train of silence.”
The three have now complied and the special investigator general’s audit is nearing completion.
Emails and testimony from lawsuits and ongoing investigations suggest the administration was deeply involved in GM’s decisions and considered a list of “politically sensitive” issues, but so far there is no proof the pension decisions were driven by political favoritism.
For its part, General Motors maintains that by topping up the union pensions, the company was fulfilling an agreement made at the time of the Delphi spin-off. And GM holds that the fate of the salaried employees was in the hands of the new Delphi.
“Delphi’s salaried pension plan was fully funded, and it was transferred to Delphi at the time the new company was created,” GM spokesperson Greg Martin said in a statement to NBC News. “Responsibility for the future health of that plan – including funding levels and asset allocation – rested solely with Delphi. The new GM is not in a position to fund salaried Delphi pensions twice.”
In 2010, then UAW President Ron Gettelfinger expressed support for Delphi’s salaried pensioners.
"This is a grave injustice," Gettelfinger wrote in a letter to the Delphi Salaried Retirees Association. "While the restructuring of America's auto industry requires shared sacrifice and responsibility, Delphi's salaried retirees/former employees are being forced to bear extra burdens that are not warranted."
Seeking resolution
The salaried workers have bipartisan support for their cause.
Last week Rep. Dave Camp, R-Mich., chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, sent a letter to Department of Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and the White House Counsel requesting compliance with a congressional request for documents.
Sen. Sherrod Brown, a Democrat from Ohio, has introduced legislation that would restore the salaried pensions using proceeds from the sale of the government’s shares of GM stock.
But legislation takes time. The group representing the salaried workers would prefer to receive their full pension directly from the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, which they say would not cost taxpayers a dime, because it receives its income from the premiums paid by the companies whose plans it insures.
Whether or not they believe the decision was made to appease an influential ally of the administration, the salaried retirees say that after a three-year struggle, it is just time to put things right.
“Really, that's in the past to be honest with you,” said David Kane. “You can't do anything about history. It's locked in. Where do we go from here? I'm more focused on what we do now to change the future. That's the only thing we can change.”
Kane’s wife, Dianne, lost her job around the same time his pension was reduced. Together, the couple has nine part-time jobs, but they are still barely making it.
“Our finances were based upon this scale, if you will, of expected income. And even with all the number jobs that we're working, it doesn't replace what we lost. It was easier sliding down the hill than to climb back up it,” Kane said.
Kane’s health has created additional challenges. Months before his pension was cut, he was diagnosed with prostate cancer. He also suffers from chronic fatigue syndrome.
Kane is still looking for full-time work but has had no luck. He suspects his age and poor health are a factor. Nevertheless, he remains hopeful.
“What I would like to see now is that portion of our pensions restored to the levels that they were before Delphi exited bankruptcy and did away with our pensions,” he said. “If I can get that portion back, I can make it. It's just too tough without it.”
Lisa Myers is NBC's senior investigative correspondent and Talesha Reynolds is an NBC investigative producer.
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Obama's Hope and Change in action.
They'll spin the hell out of this but it is just the truth that the unions were favored because they generally vote for the democrats. And they always give generously to democrat campaigns.
Can you say "buying votes"?
Pathetic leadership all the way to President Obama.
Romney's plan would have protected EVERYONE. If GM had failed on Romney's plan, so be it. Like Obama loves to say, "everyone would pay their fair share ".
Osama's dead and the union portion of GM is alive. Sounds more acturate to me.
The entire structure of the auto bailout was designed to pay back the UAW for it's support of Obama. They screwed numerous people, including many investors by rewriting the order of precedence for payment in bankruptcy and many other issues in order to favor the union and other administration cronies. There is supposed to be a set priority order for who gets paid first in a bankruptcy. The administration completely ignored those rules and saw to it that their supporters got paid off first and others, who should have gotten something ended up getting shafted. The entire process was the biggest political scam anyone could ever conceive and was designed to do one and only one thing, make sure that the UAW made out like bandits in return for their support of Obama's campaign. Obama and his cronies belong in prison for the fraud the committed in this bankruptcy/bailout fiasco.
Can you say backroom deal ? Screw the little guy.
Gee - if the admin just would have 'let Detroit go Bankrupt' these people wouldn't even have HALF of their pensions.
BK is a complex process - and its interesting that Dephi was already going BK before GM requested a bailout. Too many corporations are running their companies into the ground, filing BK and leaving the workers without their salaries, benefits or pensions. Sad, but if your company is already going to file Ch 11, you AREN'T going to see everything that you have coming to you: fact of life. IMO, they should adjust the BK law clauses so that more of the workers' wages and pensions are supported; in the vast majority of cases, they are at the very end of the line after the creditors get their dimes on the dollars. Perhaps that needs to change.
Deltafan: Its plain and simple BK law, idiot - if you don't know it, then shut your pie hole.
The laws of BK need to be adjusted, IMO.
And, speaking of DELTA (airlines): that bleeding airline has lost my luggage 3 times (out of three flights) now. WHAT a stellar average. DELTA really stand for: Don't Expect Luggate To Arrive. Sorry, but while I'm having a rant I thought I'd just get that out...
Com-on folks, Mr. Obama SAVED the auto industry. Yep, that restructuring left the shareholders holding the BAG in favor of the UNIONS.
Meanwhile, back in reality....the Secretary of Treasury has his finger prints all over Delphi NON-union employee pensions.
Expect more of this to come, since Mr. Obama has been campaigning what he did with the auto industry, he will do with OTHER BUSINESSES.
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Voted for Mr. Obama in 2008 ? Embarrassed yet ?
He isn't part of that 47% that Romney says thinks of themselves as victims? The 47% Romney doesn't care about?
OH! He is part of that 47% Romney has abandoned.
Too bad.
He's not part of that group of entitled retirees who Lyan Ryan wants to dump and cut back on social security, give a voucher to have their cancer cured.
Oh, yes, he is the entitled retiree that Ryan want to dump on the street.
And the Republicans don't have the morals to be embarrassed.
Don't worry Alex, Delta won't miss you. To the others: Who said I was for Romney/The Republicans?
Gary Johnson 2012.
Obama saved tens of thousands of jobs working with the auto industry, but that doesn't mean everybody makes out well. The taxpayer can only support so many early retirees. This isn't unusual for some people to make out better than others. Look at the Delta bankruptcy, which wasn't union but shared the same fate.
Anybody that thinks Romney's actions would have helped everybody are living in an illusion, he wouldn't have done as much as Obama and he said so.
Kicked to the curb by Obama. Welcome to the club. If you aren't a union Democrat, Obama doesn't care about you.
So the union members got their pensions but the management and non union works got screwed?That should tell you something possibly along the lines of --Strength in organized numbers.
I thought you all thought a company owner had the right to run his company the way he sees fit. Well this is how he sees fit. Now bend over. Pissed off because that muslim socialist did save you? Well neither did the CEO and he probably got a raise and a increase in his stock options.
Deltafan: Don't worry Alex, Delta won't miss you.
-----------------------------------------
Well I've every intention of missing them - every chance I get to utilise a different airline.
article... "Delphi, which already was in bankruptcy, because GM needed Delphi’s parts to build its cars. In the process, Delphi’s pensions were handed over to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBCG), a government-backed entity that insures private pensions. The PBCG terminated the pension plans, which were underfunded at the time..." - This is what happens to pensions when a company cannot meet its obligation for retiree pensions, pennies on the dollar.
Sherrod Brown has a good suggestion to use gov't owned stock, once sold, to bolster Delphi's retirees.
Or, just let Mitt send ALL of the pensions to the PBCG, let them ALL go down the toilet. He'd have let GM go into bankruptcy, and not cared a whit for any of the pension funds.
All right folks, I was still working in a company that could have competed directly with Delphi, as we made very similar products when Delphi declared bankruptcy. I was asked to review the equipment lists for three closed plants in the Anderson, Indiana area for possible acquisition by my employer. Now admittedly, companies who expect to survive often consolidate modern equipment in what they expect to be surviving plants, but what was being sold was junk on a large scale. Virtually every piece of equipment was in excess of 10 years old, most was older.
One plant seemed to be devoted to WOOD WORKING? as in building custom furniture, displays, and building fixtures. Btw, Delphi had most of its capacity tied up in building components and wiring harnesses for the Big Three companies. So an in-house carpentry shop as opposed to a model shop (which my employer incorporated into its engineering workshop with TWO skilled machinists), was more an ego-piece held over from GM ownership. I believe that this is the mis-management referred to by the "new" GM with regard to Delphi management - extract what you can as long as the gravy train lasts.
We may never know what deal was struck between the "new" GM and the unions regarding the pension top-up, but the union concessions on rolling back previously negotiated raise, allowing new hires to be paid at 50% of veteran employees for the same work, and some health-care and pension concessions were publicly made. By the way, this was after "new" GM rose from the ashes.
Had Mitt Romney's restructure plan been successful (which is highly doubtful since there was not adequate capital with motivation to invest in one or two bankrupt large corporations with glutted markets), the union contracts would have most likely been repudiated by "new" automotive. While the existing UAW pension probably would have been sheltered, no further assistance would have been given to anyone one else, Delphi workers or non-bargaining GM or Chrysler workers. So 100's of thousands of pensions would have hit the insurance plan; very likely breaking it.
And the assertion made that giving the former Delphi retirees full pension benefits would cost the taxpayers nothing belies where the pension fund gets its funding. As stated, the fund assesses a premium against every employer with a defined benefits pension program. This could amount to an addition 1+% premium against those employers (the number of companies with defined benefits plans is shrinkin rapidly). In fact, the precedent set by the costly full funding of this group could actually other soundly funded programs to freeze their defined benefit plan and go to a defined contribution plan (401k or 403c). By converting their existing defined benefit pension to an annuity, they can free themselves of future obligations to the pension insurance fund. At the point when no defined benefits plans exist, any future obligation for failed plans will have to be funded by the tax-payers or no insurance will exist at all. Leaving those affected retirees with nothing.
Plain ans simple. Obama buying votes. Oh but he really cares about the 47 %. What a liar.
Gee, all the whiners are out today, wonder if these people would even get a dime if the company went belly up ..... Better to have some than none ...
And don't forget all the Dealerships that were eliminated..I wonder how they decided that....Voter Party Registration ???....1000's of Mechanics, salespeople, Office folks, accountants, payroll people,.....
car prep/detailers, cleaning company crews hired by the dealershhips........watched as the cars on their lots were taken to another Dealership on the other side of town.....Disgraceful can't even begin to describe this, but maybe criminal can.....
The people who think the administration did such a great job of these forget about all the people who lost jobs in the deal.
If you retire regardless of your reason you must have everything paid for. Most retirement funds are only good as the company that gave them or until they close them to make more money for the stock holders. As for health insurance is only good for a year at time and if the company can afford it. Today over 80% of companies don't offer health insurance unless you pay for it out of your pay check. Between Cobra and Co Cobra is only good for three years and you pay for it. So when you retire or where bought out you should pay off everything and if the bank owns your home sell and down size. The man who is crying about 1600 dollars a month which hasn't included Social Security yet. Is making more money then most Americans who make 10 dollars an hour with no health insurance and who has to still pay income tax. This was a man who live beyond his means and didn't put any money aside. So he could impress someone. I'm sorry he is a jerk! see 56#
How can anyone talk about saving any jobs when Obama stole savings of our retieries?
How can anyone talk about re - elections of Barak Obama after this in good consiousness?
Are you kidding me?
I was not a Union employee but at 60 after 40 years in the Insurance Industry I was laid off and no one would hire me at that age. Hundreds of resumes and contacts attempted gave me 1 interview with someone that was trying to save their little company and they picked my brain for ideas over lunch and that was it. No such thing as a free lunch.
I remember as a kid in the early 50's sitting on my Grandpa's knee and listening to stories about how great his employer treated him and took care of him through the years....not anymore!
Amen, Lyle Kellogg; you have to prepare for retirement. You really should not have a lot of bills or if you do , downsize. $1600 dollars a month without counting social security is better then I'll get as a public safety worker. Just saying...
Underfunded pension plans? There are probably more underfunded pension plans than anyone would care to admit. Private industry is one thing, government, more specifically municipal government is another. I've harped on this before. Property taxes, sales taxes, and license fees, these are the regional revenues people are most affected by, as these pay for your bond issues, ( such as a water or sewer expansion project ), your school teacher salaries, or police and fire department salaries, ( and retirement benefits )... and just keeping the lights on in the building where your utility bill is calculated, ( as an example ). Most communities don't have a GM manufacturing plant handy, nor supplier for a GM manufacturing plant, for both jobs, and as a local influence on the regional tax base, ( sales and property taxes ). Many folks just don't identify with someone with a house and a boat and to live on $1600 a month. They'd say, " Tell the damned kids to pay for their own college, sell the boat, get a canoe or kayak, and live in a smaller house or apartment. " When you are talking about increasing middle class jobs, and these middle class jobs are funded with local sales and property taxes such as school teachers, and you live in a municipality with declining property values, and smaller incomes to provide these taxes, and then you top this off with the knowledge your area has underfunded pensions, sympathies get stretched a little thin. Look at the devastation of Hurricane Sandy, and put that into your property tax projections. Millions of people were affected by that storm, not thousands of people. One family looses their retirement home on the beach due to underfunded pensions, another family looses their retirement home on the beach due to a storm surge. Fully funded pension programs might require less hiring, or other ideas people won't like. Not living on a beach subject to storm damage is an idea many people don't like. Paying more in property taxes and sales taxes is another idea a lot of people don't like. At some level or another this "like" stuff is going to go the way of the dinosaurs... learn to fly, or go extinct.
It's too late for many people, but this is why defined benefit pension plans are a bad thing. Again, hindsight's 20/20, but if you're in your 30s and all your eggs are in one basket with a company, whether in stock or a pension plan, you're already behind.
Diversification!
Wow talk about half a story, while I do feel for and support the people who got screwed the anger is misplaced, there is a whole other side to what happened and it all went on very covertly and buried under layers of deception.
Here is the other part of the story, read it before passing judgement. This is all about Delphi and how the pensions were stolen along with a lot of other shady deals and manipulations.
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
@ Bill Marvell
Read the above link and you'll see why all the equipment you were looking at was old and worthless.
Antistupidity,
You nailed it, Delphi was not owned by GM but a hedge fund. (One that Romney made some big money off of when the bailout took place) The hedge fund raped Delphi of its worth and sucked down the pension funds. Not GM.
But the other lessen to be learned here is the benefits of a Union contract. Almost all Union contracts cover Union retirees too. Salaried employees have no contract and are at the whims of the owners. This is not new, it has happened many times before. Lots of steel companies went bankrupt back in the 80's and 90's. Salaried retirees got hosed but Union employees didn't get hit so bad because of the power of their contracts. Technically, they could get screwed to but doing so would bring down the wrath of the working Union employees and it potential violates contracts at a Union wide level even at companies not directly involved in the specific bankruptcy.
The other issue is that salaried employees usually have a much higher paying pension than the Union employees. The PBGC has formulas that calculate the maximum payouts. Even without major funding issues, in many cases the salaried full pensions would exceed the maximum the PBGC will pay out under any circumstances. Also, the earlier someone retires, the lower that calculated maximum will be. This is because of actuarial data. When someone retires at 55, they will draw benefits on average, ten years longer than someone who retires at 65. Ordinarily, this wouldn't be an issue as long as the company was still funding the pension plan. Once they turn over all the fund holdings though, nobody is adding to it anymore.
What happened here is something that has typically happened in big companies with both Union and salaried traditional pensions. I know it really sucks, but that's the way it works and it's been like that for a long time. When GM got rid of Delphi a long time ago, they still had a commitmentto the Union but not to the salaried employees. When you have a salaried job at companies like this, you make more money and have more perks. Often salaried employees used to get the same benefit improvements that the Unions would contract for, even though the company was not obligated to do so. But that changed a long time ago too. These days in these companies the salaried folks have better "wage compensation" but often sub standard benefits to their Union counterparts. Businesses do it because they can. The salaried employees have little recourse, and once retired, they are completely SOL.
Once a salaried employee retires, they are at the mercy of the company. They have no contract and they have nobody looking out for them. Think about it, what can they do, threaten to quit? They're already retired. There is a risk when salaried employees retire early.
But the bottom line is these folks would have been alright if it wasn't for the hedge funds doing what they do. In reality, they stole these peoples pensions and took it out as profit. Profit that in this case Mitt Romney made many millions off of along with other investors. In fact in this case, this hedge fund wasn't happy with just stealing that money, they in fact held the business for ransom threatening to completely shut down and liquidate. They knew that GM needed a working Delphi to make cars, so they milked that for all they could get. The article in the nation describes it far better than this article.
The government didn't bail out Delphi directly. GM actually did, but that meant more funds that GM needed from the government. The PBGC was going to get stuck either way. In some ways it was just a matter of how big a hit the PBGC would take.
I would love to see these retirees get their earned pensions, but it really ought to be coming from the profits their hedge fund owners made off of taking them bankrupt and then demanding in payoffs from GM. Personally, I believe that in any bankruptcy, the employees, Union or not ought to be the #1 preferred creditor. Without employees, you don't have a company. It is the work of the employees that owners and investors profit from. But the bankruptcy laws don't quite see it that way.
Read the nation article. http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
This guy should be happy to retire at 54 years old and that President Obama was in charge, because if Robme was in charge his pension would be ZERO
But, Obama did force Detroit into bankruptcy. It was big news in al the major papers at the time he did it. How soon Americans forget their history. And, those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.
Thank you 1NewDay for shining some light on this story. It's incredible how hedge fund moguls/bandits are able to walk away with hundreds of millions and somehow it's Obama's fault. Also incredible that this article contains none of the carefully researched information from Greg Palast's story in The Nation. Romney made a killing off of the bailout of Delphi and yet his cronies are somehow able to still spin this into an "Obama robbed our pensions" narrative. The fact that any of these workers lost pensions promised to them is a crime, union or not, but blaming it on favoritism for the UAW is just plain silly. UNIONS EXIST TO PROTECT WORKERS RIGHTS. The story isn't that they were given favorable treatment, it's that they got favorable treatment BECAUSE they chose to join the union and the union fought for them. Like I said before, none of these workers deserved to get screwed, but blaming all of it on the UAW and Obama is, sadly, misguided anger.
Comment # 1 restored for clarity.
Did the owners of Delphi (Romney et al) have anything to do with the workers not getting their full retirement while they made off like bandits with tax payer money?
Did GM have the option to ignore the union workers and then have to deal with strikes and other shows of support by other union workers at other GM plants?
So what does any of this have to do with Obama?
Well the idiots that vote for democrats get more enslavement/dependency on the government. So more people will vote democrat when there means get reduced or cut off. I gotta say brilliant plan democrats. Then you can introduce more of your greater society crazy visions because your control the populace.
That has been their agenda since it became illegal in this country to enslave a single race. Enslaving many people of many races, is not illegal--if done through the political system in making people more and more dependent on the government for subsistence. The leaders among the Democrats to this day are Tories at heart. Sadly, most of the public will not see it coming until it is too late.
Dave Ohler passed this on to me. This was written by a true American
All my friends,
I had more faith in the American people than I should have. I always believed no matter what we were told, we would feel that something was wrong and we would correct it. We did in 2010 and in the Wisconsin recall. But, apparently we reached the tipping point yesterday. We now have more takers than makers. More uninterested, more uninvolved, more ignorant, more clueless citizens than I thought. Yesterday as a nation, we lost our moral compass. In Florida they voted out Allen West and voted in Alan Grayson. For President we had the choice between one of the most moral, ethical, men in the country, who knows how to fix the economy and a man who admires Saul Alinsky, the Muslim Brotherhood and wants to redistribute our wealth…..and we chose the latter. Yesterday we sold our freedom for free birth control and an Obamaphone.
Yesterday, a little over half the voters (those who bothered to vote) re-elected a man who sat in the situation room and watched an attack on our Consulate in Benghazi and refused to send troops to save our Ambassador. Please don't insult my intelligence or yours by suggesting we don't have the technology to watch in real time what is going on any place in the world. Have you forgotten the picture of Obama, Hillary and others in the situation room watching the Seals take down Bin Laden? We have satellites that can read the license plate on a car, we have drones that can target one person, we have closed circuit TV, video conferencing, cell phones, satellite phones, etc. Too many e-mails to sift through? Are you serious? Do you really think our Commanders in the area don't have direct contact with the Pentagon and White House? The lies coming from this administration about Benghazi are staggering....and our media is complicit.
Yesterday, you re-elected man who has proceeded over the 40% decline in America's wealth, our credit rating being down graded TWICE, 8% unemployment for 4 years, black unemployment over 16%, gas prices over $4 (he said he was only concerned about how fast it rose, not that it rose), added 18 million to food stamps, and still blames Bush.
People voted to re-elect a man who is shutting down 48% of our energy. When gas is $10 a gallon and you can't afford to heat or cool your home remember he told you what he was going to do. He said, "My energy policy will necessarily cause prices to skyrocket". If you delude yourself that he is shutting down coal plants and not allowing America to drill our own oil to "save the planet", then explain why he gave OUR money to Mexico, Brazil & other South American countries for them to drill in the Golf and off our shores and told them we'd be their first customer? He TOLD you he thinks we use too much energy.
This is a President who demonizes success and rewards failure. He encouraged class warfare and you didn't object. He ignored the Constitution and you didn't object. He asked the UN, not Congress, for permission to send troops to Syria . Congress voted down the Dream Act and passed DOMA. Obama passed the Dream Act and refuses to enforce DOMA. He has NO authority to do that. The Constitution does NOT give the President the authority to pass laws (only Congress can) or ignore laws Congress passed. So, apparently most of you don't care about upholding the Constitution. When a woman asked Benjamin Franklin what kind of government we were going to have he said, "A Republic, if you can keep it"……..when the takers out vote the makers, we can't keep it.
You re-elected a man who met with Catholic Cardinals to gain their support for passing ObamaCare and promised them the Church would get a religious exemption but after they helped him pass it, he told them religious exemption was off the table. He lied to the Catholic Church to get what he wanted. This is an assault on the first amendment and what this country was founded on. That's the kind of man you re-elected. Valerie Jarrett, Obama's right hand, said last week that after the election it would be "pay back time" and they won't forget their enemies. I expect this administration to do everything they can do to silence the Conservative voice on radio and television. God, help us.
This morning a woman who immigrated from Russia 18 years ago called Glenn Beck and said she came here for freedom and was now afraid. She said she recognizes Communists when she sees them and this administration is full of them. For those of you who question that, "Progressive" is another word for "Communist". Hillary Clinton proudly admits to being a "Progressive" and there are 78 "Progressives" in the Congressional Progressive Caucus. You re-elected man who was endorsed by the Communist party. Obama will be appointing at least two Supreme Court Judges. We can kiss the first and second Amendments goodbye.
The consequences of this election are going to be far reaching, fundamentally transforming and probably irreversible. We will be living through the decline of America . The economy will NOT get better. More businesses will close or move out of the country. ObamaCare now has no chance of being repealed. It is already causing many businesses to make all their employees part time to avoid providing insurance. Sadly, when it is fully implemented you will regret it but it will be too late. There will be long waits to see doctors and rationed care. Seniors who voted for Obama were sadly misinformed. Seniors will be the ones most adversely effected by ObamaCare. Obama said Republicans wanted to take away your Medicare (not true) and you believed it, but it was Obama who cut $716 billion out of Medicare and it happens now. The government will now have access to ALL your medical AND financial records. I can't see how they could use that information against you, do you?
Obama and the UN have been waiting for this day. There are numerous UN Treaties that have been rejected in the past but will be brought back now. Law of the Sea, Rights of the Child, Small Arms Treaty and good old Agenda 21. All of them relinquish our sovereignty to the UN. Before yesterday I would have been confident we could stop them, now I doubt we can.
I couldn't sleep last night. I have prayed so hard and worked so hard the last four years. This country was founded on religious freedom and values. Our Bill of Rights guarantees our rights come from God, not man. I asked God, why? I believe he is on the side of the faithful. As a country, we have turned away from God. One of the Communist goals was to mock, marginalize and scorn religious faith. They have done a good job. While Obama defends Muslims religious expression, he restricts Christian expression. Obama had to be careful in his first term not to move too fast so he could be re-elected. Much of what he did doesn't go into effect until 2013. In his second term he will have no restrictions. I still believe God will guide the faithful. There is a saying, "there are no atheists in fox holes". We will figuratively be in fox holes the next four years. Maybe that's what the clueless need for a come to Jesus moment.
I fear for this country. Obama said he would have more flexibility this time (not according to the Constitution, but then too many of you don't care). I blame this on our education system and the mainstream media for the ignorance of the public. They have protected and lied for this President. I fear for my children's and grandchildren's future. They certainly won't have the freedom I enjoyed. I will keep fighting to preserve our Constitution, fiscal responsibility and limited government. I still believe in self determination and personal responsibility.
John Adams said, " Liberty , once lost, can never be restored. I pray that's not true because we lost our Liberty yesterday.
For the record, Obama actually did say that. Watch the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hLgnCRVHkD8#t=32s
The middle class is about to be buried again if Obama gets his way and gets another Democrat-controlled House of Representatives to go along with his Democrat-controlled Senate. Congratulations, America, more than half of you who voted just gave Obama carte blanche to bury the middle class and move them below the Federal Poverty Line.
Those who didn't vote because they did not feel like it or are fed up with the system actually helped make this victory for the Party of Tax and Spend possible. Enjoy your higher utility costs and gasoline prices. They are coming. Can you afford them?
Sorry to hear some union folks got left out. How about the raw deal to GM Preferred Bond holders. In a normal bankruptcy the prime inverstors get something--not this one. Only the UAW was given special treatment. The whole deal was done 'behind closed doors' by BO and his appointed 'Czars' who promised 'transparency' if elected in 2008! Hope he goes down to defeat on Tuesday!
Dave: In a 'normal corporate' BK it really depends on which BK is used. Ch7 Liquidation does not leave bondholders with anything, normally, because all assets are sold with the proceeds distributed in order of priority (for solvency) and tend to go to creditors. Ch 11 is a reorg, not a shut-down/liquidation so normally the courts approve a plan of reconstruction; even though the interest and dividends stop and the value of the bonds fall, they aren't dismissed so easily. Interest and dividends are continued to be paid after the company emerges from the other end of the Ch11: there is nothing to emerge from Ch7.
Which did use, or was this a 'Hybrid' BK (no pun intended) determined ultimately by the courts?
If you retire regardless of your reason you must have everything paid for. Most retirement funds are only good as the company that gave them or until they close them to make more money for the stock holders. As for health insurance is only good for a year at time and if the company can afford it. Today over 80% of companies don't offer health insurance unless you pay for it out of your pay check. Between Cobra and Co Cobra is only good for three years and you pay for it. So when you retire or where bought out you should pay off everything and if the bank owns your home sell and down size. The man who is crying about 1600 dollars a month which hasn't included Social Security yet. Is making more money then most Americans who make 10 dollars an hour with no health insurance and who has to still pay income tax. This was a man who live beyond his means and didn't put any money aside. So he could impress someone. I'm sorry he is a jerk! So please don't blame the President of the United States.
Dave,
No, those falling under the pension insurance plan were specifically not union member employees. Eligible, but non-participating hourly employees, and hourly and salaried management employees (clerks, supervisors, managers, engineers, etc). They are bitter because due to a negotiation between "new" GM and the unions, union members got their pensions "topped up" by GM at a cost of $1billion, avoiding the union funds from going into receivership at the hands of the pension insurance fund (PBGC) where they would have seen a similar reduction.
I will not belabor the point that the eligible, but non-participating employees made a choice not to be a union-member. As long as Delphi operated, they received essentially all the same benefits as members. But, when Delphi closed, only the unions' influence on "new" GM persuaded the pension bail-out for its members.
Management employees should have known that their pensions were at risk, and should have seen that (PBGC) would only pay part of the benefits. Further, were all these people putting all their retirement eggs in one basket? While living (in purchased homes) in communities heavily dependent on the economic welfare of their employer?
Why is the top entry collapsed? Why do I have to TROLL to be heard?
How can anyone talk about saving any jobs when Obama stole savings of our retieries?
How can anyone talk about re - elections of Barak Obama after this in good consiousness?
Are you kidding me?
Obama saved the auto industry???? What a liar !!!
The point here isn't that salaried employees got the shaft, bad as that is. The point is that the government decided who would win and who would lose, either directly or indirectly, through the bailout money being allocated and the modified bankruptcy proceeding that GM went through. The claim that bond holders normally get nothing is flat out wrong. In every case they would get more than what common stock shareholders would get, as those are at total risk and are not backed up by other assets. Not in this case. Here the bond holders were told to go to hell so that the union could keep the value it had in the stock it held. Everything about this stinks.
Everything about this case should be imposed upon every voter who sides with the people who did this as well. Frankly, the president, upon taking the oath of office, swore to uphold the laws of the USA and to faithfully eecute them. This is a travesty not just because the president didn't execute the laws faithfully, but that millions of voters simply don't care that our government is no longer the referee, it actually decides who can win and who must lose. And this isn't to excuse Republicans either. If there is an instance where Republicans have used the power of the government to pick winners and losers then they should be shamed as well.
This crony capitalism will destroy this country is we don't stop it. Obama, without a doubt, is a crony capitalist. Romney, without a doubt, has made his money in the private markets using private money from private investors. If he's a liar and will be just as crony capitalistic as Obama then he should lose in 4 years too. But first things first. Get rid of the economic cancer we KNOW we have now. Don't vote for Obama.
The fact is, this is just another situation where Obama felt it was right for him to pick the winners and losers. I wish his bleeding heart understood the laws of unintended consequences.
Obama did not steal the savings of retirees ...
Obama did not pick the winners or losers of anything
Regardless of who is President, the government cannot guarantee your pension. The company does that. This is why many professionals take a lump sum payment instead of a pension from the companies they work for. Who knows if the company will be sold and the pension changes.
"Was it a sweetener to the unions?" Are you kidding me? I actually have respect for this President, but c'mon you can't be serious. All of the winners in the bailout were his strongest allies and supporters. He decided who the winners and losers were going to be in the bailout, and thus it was.
If there is a Democrat in office, the unions will be taken care of. End of subject. If they can't all be taken care of, then the heaviest hitters (UAW, teachers) will be taken care of--sorry Delphi.
And no matter who is in power Republican or Democrat, Goldman Sachs will be taken care of. Because everyone in power is former Goldman Sachs or gets their money from Goldman Sachs.
My heart bleeds for this guy, he had to retire at fifty four, give me a break, I won't be retiring with a cushy pension, any pension I get will be one I created, I don't feel one bit sorry for this jerk off!
One of Romney's advisors managed to make a 3000% return off of the Delphi bankruptcy. So see, Romney is just like the common working man!
This again shows just how corrupt UNIONS are..... President only chance of winning was the back door payment he has made to the UNIONS..... Lets see what happens if Romney wins and he along with Congress do a National Issue 2 ( No Public Employee is allowed to join a UNION ).....
Wow talk about half a story, while I do feel for and support the people who got screwed the anger is misplaced, there is a whole other side to what happened and it all went on very covertly and buried under layers of deception.
Here is the other part of the story, read it before passing judgement. This is all about Delphi and how the pensions were stolen along with a lot of other shady deals and manipulations.
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
Obama didn't save the Auto Industry . . . . The American Taxpayer saved the UAW's pension fund! Just because some people are Union Members and others are not, are they not all employees of the same Industry? The claim, Saving the Industry! Delphi was not part of GM, why were these UAW workers included? And since they were . . . .
Shouldn't they all be treated fairly and proportionately whether Union Members or not? How does the President get involved, even if indirectly, and go along with this disparity, and then take credit for saving people from injustice, when in fact, for many, just the opposite occured.
Things are not always what they appear; beware of smiling faces.
Don't forget it was not OBAMA that caused this mess in the first place, sometimes choices have to be made and people will be hurt but how many peoples jobs were saved, how many lives were not completely destroyed because of those decisions, yes some people lost money from their pensions but they still have a life. Now look at all those that lost everything that did not work there.
I'm sure all the companies retirees that Bain capital closed down under Romney's leadership would like to know where their retirement is
I don't know if certain retiree's got a better deal or not but know they should be pleased they're still getting what most would call a good pension. Retiring at 54 and getting a pension that's still at $1600 after being cut doesn't sound bad to me. What would they have without the government guarantee?
realworld Progressive it goes to show you that Romney has what it take to make money. So if he manage to 3000% it show that he isn't stupid like Obama who lost trillion to the green company selindra. As soon that they had the money on hand they went bankrupt. you need someone Like Romney as President who knows how to do business.
@ Brian
This was another Romney & co. deal, read the link I posted in 2.16, it's all there.
it's better to pick a winner and not a loser. It seems to me that Romney has the intelligence to bring this country forward. Obama tried but it was too much for him. Now he wants revenge of the nerds. There nothing to revenge Romney is much more brighter than Obama. Obama got lucky with my vote because of the speech he did as a senator in the Democratic convention. I told my wife if this guy runs for president I'll vote him. But guess what I lost my vote because he wasn't what I thought he would be. fool me once but not twice.
Marlene,Your statement is incorrect.Companies that have what is called a qualified pension plan per the governments regulations have federally insured pension plans.If your companies pension plan is underfunded and it goes belly up employees of said company are paid pennies on the dollar for their pension checks.The government is supposed to oversee these so called qualified pension funds to make sure that they are not underfunded.It seems that nobody in our government is minding the store as they have allowed flagrant abuse of ERISA to boot.
What do the moron trolls think would have happened if nothing was done? Delphi was already bankrupt and heading for court to deny these pensions. The deal saved some of it but not all. Had he not acted in this case this guy would have nothing. He is from a highly republican affluent area in Ohio
They would have NO PENSION at all if it wasn't for President Obama. The Romney Right didn't want to help out the Auto Industry whatsoever! Knitpickers. Take your 1,600 dollars a month and thank God that you are fortunate enough to retire at the age of 54. And get another job! My Grandpa retired from Ford years before he hit 65 and went on to manage a Gas Station for 15 years. I'm sick of people blaming the President for everything. He isn't Jesus and you aren't a victim. So what do you say we stop the role play.
Romney would have simply forced bankruptcy and sent his Bain vultures and whatever hidden entities such as Bain in to pick the pieces apart and sold them overseas for pure profit. That is his business and what he does best in a nutshell. I've worked for 36 years and if I retire tomorrow there is no pension period. If I retire I would not even be able to draw unemployment. I was paid by my current and previous employer for the work I contracted for so if anyone is getting any form of pension then they are very fortunate to begin with.
RICHARDHARROW: Either you are totally misinformed or really stupid! ...probably the later. ROMNEY staTED THAT HE PERFERRED THAT gm GO THRU THE NORMAL BANKRUPTCY RREORGANIZATION plan and court. BUT, because you hear ONLY what you want and NOT THE FACTS, you suck in on ALL of Obama's misinformation...you are stupi!
ADDITIONALLY, OBAMA is TO BLAME for the pAST FOUR YEARS! HE promised lofty goals and outright lies! YET, people/microbes like you give him a free pass on everything. ...and speaking of blaming... your loser president and the mindless followers are ALWAYS blaming Bush.... why don't you speak up on that issue of blaming Bush for everything????
TIME for YOU to stop playing the victim and role of defender for a presidaent and record that YOU CAN'T DEFEND!! YOU CAN NEVER DEFEND FAILURE!!
Funny. Romney helped pick their pensions apart and made tens of millions and the blind workers have no idea so they blame the Obama administration. Figures.
hmmmm well, there's something here that goes unsaid.
Had they liquidated GM, there would've been a whole lot of people with no pension at all. All of the retirement plans that hold stock in GM would've been left with nothing. so, instead of 20,000 people, we'd be talking millions.
These salaried employees knew what they were getting into. Maybe if they'd had a union, they might have had a place at the table. Their pensions were a Lot better than anything the UAW or the IUE got. Delphi was the one who screwed them, by not funding their pensions sufficiently. And letting these people start collecting on a pension while they were still below retirement age, no matter how many years they put in, was scandalous.
And $1600 a month is not living in destitute poverty.
They are blaming Unions for what Unions are designed to be. Many people of the late 1800's lost their lives fighting to invent Unions. Worker Unions eventually led to the elimination of child labor, got the 40 hour work week with weekends off, paid vacations and sick days and pensions. It took a Civil War to end Slave Labor compared to Moses fighting the Red Sea itself by challenging the Laws of Nature to get his people out of bondage.
I believe for the Love of Jesus, he encourages humans to be in Labor Unions.
God bless FEMA: God bless Jimmy Carter for giving us FEMA: God bless Gov. Chris Christie: God bless Obama!
Romney and the investors made out on Delphi.
Republicans on NBC writing staff writing bad news.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2012/10/31/mitt-r.mney-jeep-chrysler-uaw/1672501/
All you guys blaming O evidently didn't read the part of the story where there has been NO proof that he had anything to do with the retirement "topping". On top of that, this guy had a choice to be union and wasn't. He took all the benefits, but never paid in. His choice. His loss. Finally, most on here don't even talk about delphi in particular who raided the fund, made it become unfunded and had to file BK. O didn't make Delphi fail.. they were doing that well on their own. Also read the above link to what Romney made off of the Delphi problem... speaks volumes about both candidates.
Eric LISTEN TO YOURSELF! LETTING THEM GO THROUGH BANKRUPTCY IS LETTING THEM FAIL YOU IDIOT! I've got CAPS LOCK TOO! IT DOESNT MAKE ME ANY SMARTER! American society would have gone to a standstill and spiraled into a depression as GM went through the court process.
"Free Pass"? You idiots never gave him a chance!
Me playing the role of a victim? LOL Maybe you didn't read my comment you A$$%ole. Or maybe you just had your mind made up already since you are brainwashed into believing that you are somehow a victim during the past 4 years when in fact you should be counting your blessings that we are not in a depression due to BUSH!
"OBAMA is TO BLAME for the pAST FOUR YEARS" -What failure you victim.
"you are stupi!"
Me stupi, me stupi. No, you stupi
ERIC everyone knows that if GM went through normal BK There was no Company in the private sector willing to fund the restructure!! That's way the Government had to back the BK!
Miron1,
Obama stole their saving? If anyone stole their pensions, (not their savings), it was their hedge fund owners.
Did the Union employees make out a bit better? Yes, but that had more to do with GM than the government. And GM put up $1 billion to save the Union pension fund, but it would have taken another ~ $6 billion to fund the rest of it. Delphi's hedge fund owners allowed the pension funds to go $7 billion underfunded.
We don't have all the details, but obviously the Union portion of the fund was nowhere near as bad off as the non-Union portions of the fund. All these funds are accounted for separately. Chances are the Union contract had stricter funding rules than required by pension fund law. That's pretty typical.
But if you think they would have ended up better under a Romney government, you are truly dillusional! Would you rather some did a little better than others or would you prefer to see everybody lose everything? And that "everybody" wouldn't just be retirees, but active workers too.
Are you one of those people who says, "Hey, he got some, where's mine?" You really don't care whether or not his claim is more valid than yours based on the rules, you just think that if you lose, everybody deserves to lose. The fact is that the hedge fund owners stole every dollar that they could and you can be sure that if they could have gotten away with stealing more from the Union guys, they surely would have.
ROMNEY AND THE BOYS FORCED GM INTO THIS DEAL. READ, PEOPLE.
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
1NewDay
Delphi's pension funds were not underfunded by $7 billion, that number is the result of a bad analysis by the PBGC and has been shown to be wrong by 2 independent studies. Both pension plans were underfunded by a little of $1 billion each. In spite of the way it is portrayed in this article, this is not a case of be jealous of what someone else got, it is a case of the law not being followed. First of all our pension was 85% funded, yet on average we are receiving only 50% of our pensions. Where did the other 35% go? It was essentially stolen by the administration. On top of that the PBGC had placed liens on Delphi's foreign assets to make up for the under funding. Those liens were not exercised by the PBGC. Had they been exercised, our pension would have been fully funded.
However it would have taken longer to get GM through bankruptcy if the liens had been exercised and that drove the decision. If GM needed Delphi out of bankruptcy and the liens stood in the way, then GM should have bought those assets and paid off the liens. Instead at the direction of the Treasury Department, the PBGC simply dropped the liens. Essentially GM was saved in part at the expense of Delphi workers.
I'm not saying that GM should have been allowed to go out of business, but how is it fair or even legal to take from the employees of one company to save another? It was done because the salaried employees lacked the political influence of the UAW. While the Treasury Department is still hiding evidence that would show this more clearly, we have enough evidence from the PBGC and others to show that this is what happened. I believe that we will win our court case and receive our full pensions (but not the health and life insurance we lost.)
This story has been going on for 3 years now. This is the first time one of the mainstream networks has decided to cover it. It is unfortunate that they waited until 2 days before the election to puublish this because it makes our cause look like a cheap attempt to influence the election. In reality we have support from both Democratic and Republican lawmakers.
Wow... such a nice, indepth article... refreshing from NBC.... AFTER THE ELECTION
UNINSTALLING OBAMA..... █████████████▒▒▒▒▒▒ 95% complete
Romney/Ryan 2012
bill marvell at 2.3 is right. A non-union guy will choose to work side by side with a union guy in a wage and benefit package very close to the union guy's. The union guys a generation ago made those packages and they protected it as best they could over the years. The non-union guy "saves" his dues money - maybe has some idiological objection to unions. So in the end, when the union guys protect themselves and the non-union guy gets targeted by management because he is not protected - well that was what the game was about all along wasn't it. so the pension situation is not union vs non-union guys. It is union vs management and non-union vs management. And now it's turned into gubmint picking winners and losers.
CantAffordNoMore [#2.10 - Sun Nov 4, 2012 7:48 PM EST]
If you're going to report information, make sure it isn't FALSE. The number you quoted does NOT refer to "coal miners" exclusively. Read the ARTICLE, not just the HEADLINE!
"9,000 employees of the mining and resource extraction sector lost their jobs in October."
"The Mining sector comprises establishments that extract naturally occurring mineral solids, such as coal and ores; liquid minerals, such as crude petroleum; and gases, such as natural gas. The term mining is used in the broad sense to include quarrying, well operations, beneficiating (e.g., crushing, screening, washing, and flotation), and other preparation customarily performed at the mine site, or as a part of mining activity." [Bureau of Labor Statistics]
Destroying companies and pensions.. Wasn't that Romney's specialty at Bain Capital? In fact they are still quite good at it.
I have to laugh if they think they were going to get a better deal from Romney.
"
Then General Motors did something that the Government Accountability Office, Congress’ investigative arm, later called “unusual.” GM agreed to top up the pensions of 22,000 Delphi members of the United Auto Workers union – at a cost of $1 billion. That enabled the UAW workers to still get their full pensions.
But there was no such sweetener for the company’s salaried employees or for the non-UAW hourly workers. And because the PBGC has statutory limits on how much it can pay in benefits, their payments were reduced sharply."
Clearly Delphi's workers didn't fit into the Obama/Trumka model- Non-Union. That's why they got the raw deal, just like the bond holders and investors of GM. They all got the shaft when the government used taxpayer dollars to take GM over and through bankruptcy. Eh, what's $20+ billion lost taxpayer dollars. Eh, what's paying off one government loan with another and calling it paying off your loan. Eh, what's revising the corporate structure of GM and loading it with "friends". Yeah folks, elect Obama again and you'll see plenty more interesting or "unusual" things.
What most people posting here don't seem to understand is that as salaried workers, we paid money every pay period into OUR retirement fund, and we paid premiums for our healthcare and life insurance. This wasn't a GIMME, if you pay $85 a biweekly pay period towards your retirement, for 30+ years, at an average return, that would be??? People have posted" Quit whining, and get a job!" In the town voted 6th fastest dying town in the U.S.? President Obama saved the auto industry? Wake up people,as of Oct.1st, Delphi just sent their finance dept. to Mexico. But wait, no reason for concern, those were salaried jobs! They won't show up in the unemployment figures, and when you're of retirement age, with ANY health issues, good luck, my Cobra amount for coverage was 1200 per month, when my pension was cut to 1600. Makes that 1600 sound WAAAYYY less right? But wait, under Obamacare, I HAVE to have healthcare coverage right?, or I'll be fined? Let me bend over, and see where you can pull those dollars from!My sister-in-law was told to find another job, or they would retire her as of Oct. 1st(hence not on the unemployment rolls), Ironically, her pension JUST covers their insurance premiums. I thank God every day that we were raised on a farm, with a frugal mentality that ingrained saving into our beliefs. Otherwise, I might be fighting my dog for his food!
The Delphi retirees and salaried people are complaining because the UAW was able to convince the new GM that they needed to take care of the UAW or the UAW would not go along with the deal.
Without the UAW signing onto the reorganization, there would be no deal. GM and Chrysler and the companies they support would be liquidated. Major auto parts suppliers would go under. Instead of a 9% unemployment rate, you would have been looking at 15% or 20% as the base unemployment rate. Ford, Honda, Toyota and the other companies which build in the US would also have been affected.
Preferred bond holders do not have special priority over pension payments. By law, the PBGC can force payments to pensions to have first priority, even over "priority" holders. In a reorganization, a business plan is put forth, and in that plan they lay out who will and who won't be paid from the old company debts. The judge looks at it and says yes or no. Those who object have an opportunity to state their case.
In all of these situations, someone always feels that "the other guy" obtained something they did not. As usual, politics always plays a part because this is an election year.
Hopefully, the Republican party will go back to governing after losing the election, even if they do retain control of the House.
It looks like there is a rapidly developoing story on this. Apparently Bain and Romney benefitted hugely from the auto bailout because of their hidden ownership of Delphi. Nothing wrong there (except that Romney railed against the auto bailout and then profitted hugely from it.)
But it now appears that Romney may have illegally hidden $15 to $125 million of the auto bailout profits in Ann Romney's "blind trust." This is both illegal according to the SEc and is a serious vioilation of the FEC Campaign Ethics Laws which requires that all such "deals" be disclosed.
No wonder REomney lied about his 2011 returns and refused to disclose his previous returns and any disclosure of Ann Romney's trust. Could be some jail time involved here.
Dirp,
One of the key questions here is whether GM made the decision to top off the union pensions or was it made by the Auto Task Force. The evidence suggests that it was made by the government officials in the task force and therefore it is a violation of the constitution's guarantee of equal protection under law. Do you really think that the GM UAW workers would have held out to the point of losing their jobs so that the Delphi UAW retirees would get their pensions topped off? The GM workers I know were so worried at the time about their own jobs, that they would have never done that. The Auto Task Force simply didn't push the issue and made the decision to treat to the 2 groups differently. Eventually Judge Tarnow will decide whether it was illegal or not and we will live with that decision.
Unfortunately this article focused only on the top off issue. This is only one of the points of our lawsuit. The other 2 counts, claim that the PBGC broke ERISA laws in the way our pension was terminated and that the PBGC failed to fullfill its obligation to protect our pensions by not properly exercising the liens against Delphi's foreign assets which would have provided full funding for our pensions. We believe that the evidence will show wrong doing by members of the Auto Task Force. It is clear that the decisions were not made by the PBGC as required by law and that political considerations were a big part of the decisions.
Here's even more, it just doesn't end
How Romney avoided paying 100MILLION in taxes funnelling money through the Netherlands
I found the article here
http://mossberg.newsvine.com/_news/2012/11/05/14940583-romney-avoided-100-million-in-taxes-by-funneling-money-thru-the-netherlands
The original article in Dutch from volkskrant.nl
http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2680/Economie/article/detail/3342442/2012/11/05/Romney-ontwijkt-belasting-door-sluipweg-via-Nederland.dhtml
And the translation to English
© AFP. The Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney.
The tax loopholes of Mitt Romney also run through the Netherlands. The private equity fund Bain Capital, which presidential candidate participates, via the Dutch would route some 80 million euros in dividends have dodged.
Presidential candidate Mitt Romney benefiting from the private equity fund Bain Capital from an advantageous tax route that runs through the Netherlands. Netherlands for the American Bain, which Romney was established as a link in his extensive international web of trusts and holding companies.
Through its investment in 2004 acquired Irish pharmaceutical company Warner Chilcott via the Netherlands to run, know Bain dividends and capital gains to avoid. Since the shares in the Netherlands are housed, was approximately $ 389 million (303 million) in dividends Bain and sold for over $ 334 million (260 million euros) in shares.
This shows by Follow the Money for the Volkskrant examined filings with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), Romneys tax returns, the U.S. tech blog Gawker revealed confidential documents from Bain, and data from the Dutch Chamber of Commerce.
80000000
According to tax Jos Peters, who advise large private equity firms occurs, Bain with the Dutch route about 80 million dividend managed to dodge. "Bain also saves a lot of Irish capital gains tax if the shares are sold," said Peters. Bain nor the Romney campaign has responded to repeated requests for a comprehensive response.
While Romney Bain in 1999 as an active investor left, he was there as part of his severance scheme still participate. So he invested in 2004 with his wife Ann Romney also competed in the Bain Capital Fund VIII. This in the Cayman Islands based fund has a significant interest in Warner Chilcott. Of the 37.5 million shares that Warner Chilcott Bain in September 2010 in its possession, there are 25.7 million in the Bain Capital Fund VIII.
Romney, in his' public financial disclosure report "that his shares in the Bain Capital Fund VIII 'over a million' worth. From the tax returns of Romney and his wife that the couple in 2010 and 2011, more than $ 2.05 million in dividends from the fund received. Their shares rose in the same period by more than $ 5.5 million in value.
Romney receives a significant portion of the proceeds from the Bain Capital Fund VIII in the form of shares. On March 10, 2011 Romney donated 19,799 shares of Warner Chilcott (with a market value of approximately $ 450,000) to a non-profit association of his son, The Tyler Foundation. This avoided Romney taxation in the United States. Gifts of shares to designated non-profit organizations are excluded from capital gains tax. Moreover, the gift tax deductible.
$ 398 million
Since 2010, Bain Capital has its shares in Warner Chilcott housed in a Dutch private company. From the beginning, there are significant benefits to Bain Capital occurred. Warner Chilcott paid from August 2010 389 million dollars in dividends. Bain sold in these years for more than $ 334 million equity Warner Chilcott.
By making use of the so-called participation exemption in the Netherlands and Luxembourg do Bain dividends and capital gains to avoid the proceeds of his shares safely bring in tax haven Cayman Islands. The participation exemption means that the profit from a shareholding of more than 5 percent is not taxed in the Netherlands. Netherlands is partly why an attractive location for holding companies of multinationals and financial funds. "We are world champions participation exemption ', says Jos Peters, tax specialist at Merlyn.
In the United States, Mitt Romney for months under fire from the media and his political opponents of the Democratic Party on the limited amount of his tax payments. The criticism forced Romney in September about the tax paid by him to reveal. It was already known that he benefits from tax ingenious shortcuts through the Cayman Islands, Bermuda and Luxembourg.
Netherlands came in that list not yet. Wrongly, it turns out.
Netherlands came rather as attractive tax junction in the news around include the shortcut tax of U.S. coffee chain Starbucks, which in England was great indignation.
Wow, the irony (and hypocrisy) is so thick in here you could cut it with a knife.
So, let's see how it all adds up: Republicans, who:
have decided to take this guy's side. If he were union, he would be protected now, wouldn't he? In order for any part of the Big 3 to survive, somebody had to take in the shorts. I feel for the guy, but that's all that I can do. The only other alternative was complete bankruptcy with no pension at all or government ownership and guaranteed pensions.
Go ahead, self-proclaimed conservatives: choose which one you would do (show your true colors).
Solyndra failed..................So since Icarus(mythology, but shows the thought was already there), and so many others through the centuries tried and failed to fly, should Orville and Wilbur Wright not have tried to fly. Before almost every success there are many failed attempts.
There are no failed experiments unless you have not learned anything in the process.
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
tells the story of Romney’s profits from Delphi’s bankruptcy – there are many ways to skin a cat and Romney & Friends do it every day…that chill in the air is their cold breath!
there are too, too many hedge funds, speculators, and middle men sucking off the system while not contributing anything to the business itself !!!!!!
@Lyle Kellogg - I don't know where you get the idea you can pay for your COBRA coverage for 3 years, but the limit is 18 months, paying 105% of the cost of the insurance. If you're declared more than 60% disabled by the SS administration, when the 18 months is up you can get an 11 month extension by paying 150% of the cost of insurance.
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq-consumer-cobra.html
So, 29 months is the absolute maximum, and if you are disabled, you should start your claim immediately because it often takes over a year to get a disability determination from the SSA... and that's if you have an attorney. Their standard operating procedure is to deny the first claim and the first appeal, no matter what evidence is presented.
I know how this guy feels.At least he is getting a pension from the Federal Pension Guarantee Fund.SBC blatantly broke the ERISA laws,is not in bankruptcy,gave us the choice of reduced pensions or buyouts.I took the buyout and the lovely Mutual
Fund IRA funds ate up a sizable chunk along with the downturn of the stock market.I have no retirement income after 30 years with the phone company.We have to contribute towards the promised paid for health insurance.We belonged to the CWA union which stand for Communication Workers of America.I call it,Company Wins All.
Just a cleaning lady now I feel for you. I'm not a union fan when you stop paying dues you have no say. The other guy on the other hand I don't feel for at all. One he was being paid ten time more then you. He could have paid his bills with the pay off monies and since he made ten times more then you he should have had some monies invested or saved. He could have sold his home since he owned a lot of money. You I feel for he I don't. I be willing bet you any money the boat isn't paid for either.
Romney's Bane Capital bought Delphi and demanded $350 mill in the auto bail out to Delphi (which was GM's largest supplier) open. Lisa Myers seems to forgot that. See:
Romney, Ryan, and their vulture capitalist friends made out quite well in the Delphi "deal," as reported in one of the nation's oldest magazines.
Well, as long as it is old then it must be accurate. But wait...why shouldn't Romney and other investors not want to make money on a deal they enter into? You aren't seriously implying that investment houses should operate as charities, are you? You seem to exculpate entirely this president and his dangerous interference in the private economy while you simultaneously blame those in the private economy for operating within the law.
This nation is in a real mess, but it is of our own doing. Just think through the meaning of your post.
No Unions. No corporate leeches. No favored Nation status. No tax breaks. No guest workers. No subsidies. No government investment. No expense accounts. Pay your own way across the board. Fair pay, no CEO makes more than President. Money goes to investors or back into business. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!
Lyle Kellogg,I thank you for your empathy.I am not alone in this boat.So I started my own cleaning business and have done so for 6 years.I am still the only employee,am 61 years old and I couldn't be happier.I love working for me and not a corporation.I will,l in the end prevail, because after the tears I got up and got going.This has been the biggest learning experience of my life.CWA was once a great union but they forgot that they are supposed to be protecting the workers instead of lining their pockets and big egos.I thank you again Lyle for your moral support.
Here's what happened, and how Romney made a windfall on Delphi, he made at least 15.3 million of taxpayer bailout money and likely a lot more than 15.3 million.
He and his cohorts intentionally drained and pocketed the pensions these poor people lost,before off shoring Delphi to China.
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
Cantaffordnomore,He worsened everything that was wrong in the first place. Voters should have realized that Obama did not have enough experience to handle all of the problems lain at his feet.I'm hopefulthat he does not get four more years.
The best way to fight back is to not buy UAW cars.
I grew up accross the street from DELCO (the old Dayton Electric Company) a wholly owned subsidiary of GM. Back in 1994 DELCO was ended and Dephi was created from it specifically to hit the unions hard and avoid funding an unfunded pension liability and to allow non-union employees in the shop. Globalization was fully rolling and parts were being made in Mexico. To compete in wages, GM had to lighten the financial load. Legally GM made it independently capitalized and removed it from GM officially so cross over liability wasn't possible. All part of the never ending squabble of union v management. Management wins more than they lose. This article above details another example of management winning.
IReadYou,Great post and an education,short and sweet,about the inner workings of the auto supply and automobile companies.
These sound like lengthy careers in which people transitioned from hourly to salaried positions. Some perhaps hired in as salaried employees. I worked in both capacities in a couple comparable firms. I knew the pros and cons of being both an hourly and salaried employee. I think there were choices made as well as some understandings of the upside and downside to gaining salaried employment. I knew that once I became a "company" man my union protections and some other collective benefits were diminished, if not gone entirely. In hindsight I now choose to no longer work as a salaried employee. Another thing I noted in the article is that "the pensions were already underfunded" hen the GM talks began. This would not have been the governments fault or any other agency stood up to oversee the automotive industry bailout. This would more than likely be due to a combination of hard times and mismanagement by the Delphi pension managers. Difficult times for those affected, but I don't believe it's any one agency's specific fault. And remember, becoming a "company" man has it downside at times.
Gosh, wasn't this around the same time that Bain Capital controlled Delphi? Maybe this is where Myth got all his profits, since the government didn't fall for his extortion attempt.
Scott Shand, well said I also know workers who regret becoming the company "man." As they lost the coveted collective voice union membership offers. I wonder if those who had their pension reduced paid into those funds directly from their wages? If they did then what did the company do with those funds and why? I can understand GM's position that they handed over a fully funded pension fund and don't want to pay again. I equally feel those workers did their job with the understanding of a promised investment for their future retirement in lieu of work performed. I do think the UAW president's support says volumns for these hard working loyal employees. I hope that the UAW can use it's resources and influence to return a larger portion of these worker pensions if not all.
SingBiker - The UAW is suing Willard Romney for full disclosure of his Delphi Holdngs - it seems Delphi was the company holding up the proceedings and had a gun to GM'S head Willard Romney made $5 Million on this deal while decrying the bailout
Maybe all the people crying about their pensions should look into the entire story of what really happened in this deal
Under the Bain Capital takeovers - most employees lost their pensions with the government giving 40% of the original pension amount
Hey boys and girls we all got hit in the recession - my 401K dropped 30% right when I was retiring - thems the breaks
slineg biker, Delphi was sold off after GM's Takeover pensions disappeared before sell off.
Actually it was at least 15.3 million not 5 million
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
Antistopidity - Hell a million here and a million there to Willard it's all chump change - but thanks for the correction
No problem, did you read the link I posted, it shows how Romney and his cohorts actually stole and pocketed the pensions amongst everything else they stole from Delphi.
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
well, its not the presidents fault for a company failing and not being good at handling its business along with handling its ties with organizations. If your going to do that and romney fails, people can say the same thing, door swings both ways for ether party, so I would say stop sounding ignorant and get over it, freaking 2 year olds in each party. But that isn't right what the company has done, you realize this is what happens when you let big money control everything on top not working with your fellow worker no matter beliefs or party. We are all to blame and who ever gets in next, I wouldn't want to be. Country is divided and acting stupid.
But he picks his favorites just like his picking his buds to invest taxpayer money with.
The truth of what really happened, with all the details, not just nbc's selected parts of the story
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
I have never had a dishwasher. All these above mentioned people will vote either republican or democrat on tuesday...no tears here. You vote for these corrupt political parties, you live with them. peace
Nope, proud libertarian here.
My parents never had a dishwasher, but they had 4 kids. Hey! They had 4 dishwashers!
This guy worked for Delphi for 35 years and took advantage of all of the benefits that the UAW negotiated for him during that time. Now he wants full pension. What a joke. Next job pay your union dues and quit being such a moocher and cry baby.
PMDavid,How can you label somebody a moocher who worked all those years with the promise of a specified pension amount? Many large companies promised good pensions in lieu of automatic pay increases.Many large companies had their pensions funded and still violated ERISA.Not one person in Congress,the Senate or the Supreme court has looked into the companies that violated the federal government ERISA law.That is your government tax dollars at work.This could happen to you someday so you should be sympathetic to a hard working American who had the rug pulled out from under him.
No the problem with the federal law is the fuzzy math the government tells the pension they have to fund. Many of formulas in pension funding simply do not work. The federal government is suppose to insure pension funds stay solvent. And if they fail in that job, they end up taking over the fun and pay pennies on the dollar what was promised to the workers. After the Teamsters screwed their people, the federal government took an active role in over seeing these pension plans. Probably the same fuzzy math used by the Owebama budget hawks. Well maybe not hawks, more like pigeons. Eat everything in site then $h!t all over the place.
The "fuzzy math" on pension funding started LONG before President Obama came along - he was more likely in elementary school back in the day when promises made then could not be kept today.
Look at the City of San Diego's pension woes, going on over 8 years now. They aren't the only public entity with pension problems. Maybe 30% of corporations today still have a "defined benefit" pension plan, most switched over to a 401k, so the company wouldn't be saddled with under-funded pension accounts. The pension issue, country wide, is another reason why banks and financials were "bailed out". To have not done so, like in AIG's case, could have had severe repercussions to senior's pensions plans. Delphi all over again, and again.
Obama buying votes, plain and simple. That said, if you think this is a problem in getting pensions paid, consider all the various pensions associated with public employees. Those pensions are so underfunded. It is a disaster waiting to happen . And do you think the people who are unemployed, underemployed or not getting their full pensions are going to pony up to pay those pensions?
Public employee jobs are taxpayer funded - and taxpayers are on the hook for that - but if a public entity goes belly up, I do not know how the retiree pensions are made up - maybe with rules that change on a State by State basis? For private companies, non-public sector, the Feds step in and pay pennies on the dollar to retirees. Maybe 401ks are better after all - unless the stock market tanks, instead of being at near record highs now.
The "new" GM/union deals were struck AFTER restructuring; when despite a 60%+ share of the "new" GM, the federal government (President Obama) swore to take a hands-off policy to avoid the "government motors" charge. This was NOT a government engineered deal, just plain old private management-union deal making.
Regarding the pros vs. cons of defined benefit plans vs. defined contribution plans, all defined benefit plans have some risk of default, just as some defined contribution plans (401k, 403c) or IRA plans carry market risks. Actually, I feel most local government pensions have more risk than most private plans, and their backstop is already over-committed state funds.
Ironically, the much ballyhooed debt problems with the USPS are a result of Congress requiring USPS to fully fund its pension obbligations for the next 75years in a brief period (10years at $5.5billion per year). It is estimated that despite defaults on these payments in 2011 and 2012, the USPS has already over-funded its pension by $11billion. All money handed over to... the US Treasury. Is this a plan to assure the pension, or break the postal union? Now that is a real political debate directly involving the USPS and its management, politicians and their interference in the USPS (pension manipulation, health-care funding and postal rate setting), the union, and TWO private firms angling to gain its "monopoly." The biggest victims? Americans in "unprofitable" areas - rural addresses and and inner cities who stand to lose mail service entirely.
Hard to get the truth out. 10 bucks says that money isn't where it is supposed to be.
happytimesarehereagain,401K's are an investment with no guarantee.I had co workers lose thousands of their dollars and the phone companies matching funds.I will never invest another penny into anything that does not guarantee a return on my money no matter how small the return is.
lets get the UAW and IAW unions out of the DNC pocket and vise versa, lets pass some meaningfull campaign finance reform, No super pacs, no union contribution, all online donations verified citizens of the usa before transaction is allowed to release funds to the party. Parties are to list contributions publicly everyweek before election or be disqualified. Law requiring UNION Funds to be independantly audited once a year until election year, and once election year arrives immediate audit and week ly Audit untill end of election.
TheVoiceofLogice,i am in agreement with you.special interests funded by unions and or corporations is buying votes plain and simple.This is one of the most corrupt ways to run a government.
BillMarvell,I hate seeing the Postal Service being decimated.The post office should be able to run like the private sector as the government handing down all of their regulations has absolutely ruined one of the last American institutions.
@ bob-2476682, just a cleaning lady, The Voice of Logic, Bill Marvell, lulu98, onermailliw, PMDavid, happytimesarehearagain
Here's the truth, this covers exactly what happened, it wasn't the unions, caution it may make your blood boil
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
I know it wasn't unions. Most of us know of the treachery for greed.
I don't know ..but if it wasn't for unions who would you have to fight for you ..the corporations
When I first started at GM I had left Honda to come to the #1 American automotive company. Shortly after GM spun off the parts division to become Delphi. I wondered how the company every made any money because there were such huge inefficiencies caused by the poor contracts negotiated with the unions. There were people allowed to miss so much work and still retain a job. As with many "old school unions" the restirctions of who could do certain work created many workers that almost did no work (ie jobs banks, restrictive trades classifications, etc). The salaried work force was give a company that had no chance of survival becasue the open market price of the parts were significantly less than was the GM parts plants were selling to GM. That is why GM had to dump this division. The division was broken because of years of bad deals and bad contracts. The sallaried workforce held the line and began turning around the company. The salaried folks did not sit in a cafeteria for years without doing any work and still got paid, the salaried workforce did not sleep on the job and still get paid, the salaried workforce had to come to work daily to keep a job. GM created a week company with many bad contracts and then stuck it to the group that held a broken company together. The goup that served faithfull and showed no harm to GM was not treated fairly. The salaried folks and hourly folks should have all ended up with the same deal. Why did they not???? It is obvious, votes from a strongly democratic group. GM gained by getting money for a bailout it caused and did not need. I was in a GM plant a few weeks ago (Lordstown) and still see the hourly folks at the same old game....Literally...a guy on the IP assembly line was playing a video game and then would run over and build parts. How many companies do you know would allow this? Only one's that are week and have no worries about going broke.
Terry from OH, But the bond was fully funded by GM before Delphi became an independent Company. wouldn't the better question be what happened to those funds?
Many times companies "fund" their pension plans by contributing their own stock, as they are allowed to take a tax deduction for the market value of the stock and do not have to part with any cash.
If the company stock takes a nosedive, the pension plan winds up underfumded.
This is probably a case of the UAW striking a hard bargain for their employee's pensions at the time GM spun off Delphi.
jeffrey f,
GM spun-off Delphi well over five years before the auto industry and Delphi went south. The real questions are: how much additional liability did Delphi incur and how much did Delphi contribute? What Delphi did with the pension funds it took over AND administered is a good question. But those funds, subject to the market losses in 2008 and 2009, would probably not have kept that pension out of receivership. I suspect that the union funds were invested much more conservatively, under both company and union supervision.
Bill Marvell
Both the hourly and salaried pension funds were about 85% funded in 2009. That is well above the 50% threshhold where the PBGC would normally take over a pension fund. Delphi entered in to Chapter 11 in October 2005 and both plans were still intact in June of 2009. The shortfall for the salaried plan was covered by liens on Delphi's foreign assets. Had those liens been properly executed by the PBGC the salaried plan would have been fully funded.
Even though the press picks up on the union versus non-union aspect of the issue, the real issue is that the PBGC acted improperly in terminating the salaried pension plan. The result is that the average retiree is receiving about half of what they were promised when there was no need to terminate the plan at all.
Ask yourself these questions: If the PBGC did its job correctly, why did it withhold documents from Congress and ignore a federal judge's order for 20 months? Why is the Treasury Department still withholding documents from Congress and fighting the judge's order? People who don't have anything to hide, don't work that hard to cover things up.
The truth of what really happened, with all the details, not just nbc's selected parts of the story
jeffrey f, here is what happened to the funds
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
Once they had your vote for "Hope and Change" you weren't worth anything to them.
.....and if the wealthy could pay someone to die for them, the poor would be able to make a decent living.
The truth of what really happened, with all the details, not just nbc's selected parts of the story
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
If I read the article correctly, the Union personnel received their fair share, it was the non union members that got the shaft.
So when you all want to complain about how the younger generation does not want to work it's because we see crap like this happening. You work half your life for a company and they simply throw you away like garbage. I know I'll never be able to retire and my father, now 62, has had to postpone his retirement. Lot of good this country has done for him even after making him fight in a useless war called vietnam. Now people can understand me when I tell them I have never voted and could not care less about this country as it does not care about us. They would rather pay a foreign worker or someone in the country illegally because us citizens cost to much. I hate this country and everything it stands for and it deserves to fall.
madcitizen, there aren't anymore jobs like these because the CEO's busted the unions to line their own pockets. you truly have a twisted way of looking at things chummily.
Please, if you hate it here so much and do nothing to try to make it better, leave. You would be happier and so would we.
mad - Hard to believe you are from "this country" - sound more like a "troll" from another. But if you are an American "troll", then understand that "organized labor" is about a collective voice for workers.
I am not pro-union necessarily, and there must have/should have been a better way to organize without the union leaders skimming the cream from union organizations (and having Mob connections), but it is glaringly obvious that some form of "organized labor" is necessary to prevent workers, average people, from getting screwed by the likes of Mitt's Bain Capital.
Mad, your Dad is younger than mine... we're probably roughly the same age. Be careful man! I fought in a worthless war (most all are) and am excited about using my GI bill to do something different. Your bleak and hopeless outlook on life is going to become self-fulfilling. You're a young man, act like one!
Why should your 62 year old Dad be entitled to retire if he hasn't saved enough money yet? Why are you certain you'll never be able to retire? Do you plan on not learning new skills or saving money? Why do you feel a company should be personally loyal to you? Why would you be personally loyal to a company, and therefor have the capacity to feel personally betrayed by one?
Take a trip to a 3rd world country, maybe Costa Rica or Honduras for a couple weeks and see how people live on a few dollars a day, and thrive, and maintain a sense of optimism that you've lost here in your relatively easy life.
I'm amazed by the amount of self-pity, hopelessness, and negativity you've managed to load into 1 comment!
madcitizen,I'm 61 and basically starting over and I say so what.Believe it or not this is not the end of the world.Your father will live longer if he does indeed keep working.My doctor said people's bodies start deteriorating faster when they sit all day and don't stay limber.As far as you not voting you should be ashamed of yourself. People have died fighting for their rights to vote in other countries and would trade places with you in a heartbeat.Your attitude is not going to get you very far in life.Try a different approach to looking at life and I bet you will be the change that you want to see.
The truth of what really happened, with all the details, not just nbc's selected parts of the story
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
Where's the part of the story about Bain/Romney buying out most of the shares of Delphi, then gutting it with "administrative fees?
here you go . . . .
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2012/10/romney-accused-of-personally-profiting-as-1000s-of-delphi-retirees-lost-pensions/
To..KJNC"""""
Hmmm ..good catch ..thanks
CantAffordNoMore,
Romney "officially" left Bain, but where does the ownership of Bain lead you? What ever I may feel about Mitt Romney politically, I do not believe the man a fool, nor a fool who would leave his $350billion asset unguarded.
That may explain a certain reluctances to reveal board meeting attendance records, full tax returns, etc. I wonder why Donald Trump didn't offer Mitt the same $5million to charity like he offered President Obama?
Here's the article from the nation detailing all the intricacies of what happened, not just nbc's selected parts of the story
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
So!
Just some last minute GOP slander. They have tried everything else. I'm waiting for the kitchen sink.
Wow! So now NBC News is a GOP outlet.
That's the Owebama Broadcasting Company. No news , just goody goodys for Owebama
NBC is owned by GE.... GE is run by Jeff Immelt, Obama's Job Czar (that is, until he outsourced GE Imaging to China)... GE paid no taxes... duh, NBC will shill for Obama no matter what.... it's quid pro quo....
It's interesting how Romney profited greatly by putting Delphi into receivership.
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza#
This is what all the employees, union and salaried would have had happen to their pensions if Romney's private bankruptcy had gone through. Their were no private funds available to loan at the time, so the companies would have been destroyed, all pensions would have gone to the board and slashed to the bare bone.
As happened with the bailout, almost all workers kept their jobs, the vast majority have full pensions, and the companies are in production. So, whose judgement call was best for the nation as a whole?
Obama's and the Dems in Congress, that is for sure. Republicans would have worked to make sure management was given a deal, but the vast majority would have been thrown away, and out country would have been much worse off.
goldpointe,Actually our economy would have recovered rather nicely if our government would have let these companies fail and allowed the depression to happen.It is never ok for the government to bail out private enterprises.They didn't do it for the medium and small business owners and plenty of people lost their jobs.It is a slippery slope when people desire and expect the government to get involved in every facet of our lives.
Calling for a complete collapse of our economy, with the resultant starvation, riots, homelessness seems pretty heartless just for an ideology. At least the Okies had California to go to. Where would all of the millions of homeless and penniless gone if all our banks had failed?
goldpointe,the same place my parents and grandparents went.They had ration stamps,they had soup lines and they had government public works programs.Obama said we were shovel ready and yet our infrastructures are in disrepair.During the depression banks let a lot of people stay in their homes.This recession has seen banks boot people to the curb.People would have survived.Economists in this country advised letting the banks and auto industry fail so that we would have had a faster recovery that would have ld to a robust economy.
No wonder you're just a cleaning lady, you nothing about economics! How could going into a depression be better! we would have had 50% unemployment the stock markets would have gone to a thousand(Dow Jones)In the Depression people with wheel barrels full of money could only buy a loaf of bread, I don't think you know what your taking about!
There is some merit to the banks issue. That is one reason the government let many banks fail - big ones, like Washington Mutual, the 6th largest bank in America - those which were on shaky ground. Ireland guaranteed all bank assets and that led to disfunction.
However, we were so near to collapse in our entire financial and banking system that government intervention did assist in saving the system, but not several of its components.
A small country like Iceland telling all bank creidtors to write off their investment is one thing. If America had told bank creditors to just count their losses, the world financial markets would have collapsed and the good faith and credit of the USA would have never come back.
As part of the deal, like Obama did with the auto industry, the Bush administration, which bailed out the banks, should have told the CEO's to get lost and their replacements to forget about bonuses and salary increases as long as the feds were supporting them.
This should be investigated; however you need to go back to when they started shipping job out. Dig deep enough you will find out Romney the leverage buyout king hands are all over it. This is the MO of leverage buyouts to loot from within.
blaisepascal,Are you saying that cleaning ladies are snot educated?Your sarcastic comment shows how narrow minded you are.I own the business after 30 years working a technical job for ATT.I don't see why people have made such petty and snide remarks about my screen name.for all you know I'm actually a doctor,lawyer or CEO.Well actually I am the CEO of my cleaning company.I do know about economics but then I guess you are smarter than Bernacke and Greenspan who suggested letting the banks fail.
Goldpointe,and after further investigation it was found that Washington Mutual was not on shaky ground.It's a scary government that we have who picks and chooses who can do business or who they can fail due to wrong information.I had WAMU who beat Chase hands down in customer service.
So, cleaning lady, you are saying the Bush administration lied to us? Shocking!
However, right before the seizure, WAMU's stock had fallen to $2 per share from the previous $45 per share, and there was an ongoing run on the assets, with $16.7 billiion removed in just 6 days. WAMU had rejected a buy-out offer for $8 a share , much higher than what it went for at auction, and that seemed to be the last straw. The FDIC said it did not have enough funds available if the bank went bust, so the feds seized it and sold it so the FDIC did not have to insure depositor's losses.
We'll see if there is any merit in the claims that WAMU should not have been seized and that it was a political ploy by Republicans to embarass Maria Cantwell, who had been a thorn in the side of Bush's banking actions. So far all those making that claim have lost in court.
Are the Republicans willing to levy taxes on the billionaires to make up the difference to the salaried workers?
If not, I don't want to hear from them.
And why should other individuals pay for this. Let's tax YOU more.
Yeah, because that would pay for EIGHT WHOLE DAYS of Obama deficit spending... THATs only a solution in Obama's tiny brain....
Now, the Obama sycophants are trying to blame the GM screwup on Romney, instead of assigning blame correctly, on Obama and his blatant bribe of the auto workers' union to buy their vote. If it wasn't so pathetic, it would almost be funny. Get with it, people - Obama arranged the entire buyout for GM to buy votes. He doesn't give one damn about GM or its workers having a job - he wants votes, and he isn't afraid to throw away billions of taxpayer dollars to get them. How is it that Ford was able to save itself? How is it that Chrysler was able to make a deal with Fiat to save the company and all its jobs? Both did so without one dime of taxpayer investment. Why did the American taxpayer have to fork over the money to save GM? Romney wanted GM to undergo a managed bankruptcy, and was crucified for it. The sad part about the whole thing was that Obama and his cohorts did run GM through a managed bankruptcy - except they used our tax dollars to do it.
The contempt of GM for its nonunion workers is despicable - ALL workers should be treated equally. If an agreement is in place for some workers, it should be in place for ALL workers. This is why people have lost faith in labor unions - they are completely unrealistic in their demands - they stupidly make demands for more salary, and more benefits, and they don't care if the company goes bankrupt, just so their demands are met. I have personal experience with a union which sold its members down the river by making such excessive demands that the company was forced to shut its doors. Then, the union said that the company was at fault!
OMG=Obama Must Go
Remember in November!
To Redwood"""
Who told you that....
And why is it ALL workers aren't treated equally
Chryslyer did take bailout funds. Ford did not take any funds but made sure they could if the economy got worse.
"Chrysler Financial said Tuesday that it has paid back money it received from the government’s federal bailout fund, the Troubled Asset Relief Program. It’s done so after its former parent has remade itself by selling its best assets to a new company run by Fiat — and after its work lending to Chrysler dealers was largely picked up by a larger peer, GMAC." NY Times 7/14/2009
"Ford is not seeking a bridge loan to get through the current economic crisis. Instead, Ford
asked for a backup line of credit that could be used if the economic downturn
continues for an extended period." TIME 12/15/08
Read more: #ixzz2BIJmh937
Maybe instead of feeling like the 47% victims, they should have joined the union and had someone that could watch their backs and pockets. I find it ironic that this is coming from the company that Romney supposedly made millions off of. Maybe since there seems to be questionable behavior coming from both camps, a full transparent investigation by an outside group is warranted.
There, I fixed it for you…
To..Voice"""
And who is it that's ended up having their pockets picked .....
voice,
"You have learned well my little troll." Karl Rove.
Congratulations on text manipulation to achieve your own deceitful aim.
He's not one of the 47% Romney couldn't care less about is he?
Oh, yes, he is.
So many more family will suffer if this administration is re-elected for four more years
The entire country, the entire world!!!
If we're stupid enough to vote for another BUSHWRECK the world would go into a depression! "TRICK"le down is still going on right now ,because the BUSHWRECK taxes have been in place these last four years! So if not enough jobs have been created and "TRICK"le down has been in effect for the last 12 years It proves "TRICK"le doesn't work!
Yes,I agree that voting for Obama would cause another Bushwreck as you stated.If you look at past presidents,congress and the senate you will see that the president is just a figure head.Obama is a smart aleck and his arrogance turns people off so that he gets no cooperation from those in power.His ideas don't fly so he gets no backing and that is why he is a failure.He will see to it that the middle calss is no more in America.
All of us will suffer the same way if the Retirement killers, Romney/Ryan/GOP get elected. No social security, no medicare, no savings. This will be the norm for a Republican Administration and Congress.
And of course you have proof of this or are you just another libby Blather machine.
Amazing you can get up in the morning since you do not seem capable of thinking.
You mean like the over 700 million or so Obama stole from Medicare to pay for his program ?? Or the 16 Trillion in debt that has been racked up?? And social security...you can blame Clinton and his boys for that. Stop drinking the kool aid and start thinking for yourself.
Fletch - Quit repeating Willard's lie - the 716 million went to offset the providers costs and Medicare was extended to 2030
Ryan's plan takes the same 716 Million to who knows where and he voucherize's Medicare
We all know Willard and Ryan lied except you - you have a problem with facts?
And Obama has a problem with lying also. In fact the last four years have been the largest lie ever pulled on the American people. He had and has no plan for returning this country to it's world class status or allowing you to make one more dollar tomorrow that you didn't make today. He'll just tax you more. And you know this is a fact, because the last four have been a disaster, and he has been at the helm the entire time!!!
sweaver - Troll on - amazing when I look up you posters even though you've been so called posting for months you kid since June - you have no friends - no followers - might be you keep thinking up stupid names or you're just here to catch a couple of people who don't know better
Lot's of Luck - A Brain is a Terrible Thing to Waste - sorry you're wasting yours
I thought this was the United States of America and i was able to write with freedom my thoughts. I could care less about followers, big deal, i just want to express my personal feeling. So sorry it hurts to have somebody call your clown in the White House all the derogotory names he deserves. And my stupid name just stays the same. You know full and well Obama has lied to America, all his promises in '08. Were are they????
Barbara Admas Jackson,I have no followers and am not a troll.and if you look at who one of my so called friends are it is pornographic and I have no clue who that person is.But I guess if it's on the internet it must be the truth. I will defend Sweaver290's right to freedom of speech. I also agree with their post.
IMH...you are DELUSIONAL! NO social security... no medicare..... YOU are NOTHING moree than a purveyor of LIES and deceit!
CHECK the facts.... Obama has raidred the medicare funds,some administrativley to apy for the hungry monster called Obama Care!
NO ONE is touching Social Security. You are a shallow little person .. your kind should be seperated from our society with NO MORE REGARDS, than disgarding ROTTEN APPLES FROM A BARREL!!!
Let's see, cleaning lady wanted a full depression, with homelessness, starvation and 3/4 of the American jobs lost and instead we have jobs being created every year for four years, instead of jobs being lost every year for four years under Bush. We have a fairly healthy home market, with home values going up instead of down, like under Bush. We have a healthy banking industry instead of complete collapse of our financial markets. We have thriving USA companies instead of defunct auto production which would have happened under a private bankruptcy.
I'd say Obama's plan for slow, but steady recovery is working well, while cleaning lady's answer would have been to let everyone who isn't wealthy staerve to death.
The last four years have been a triumph of caring for America and Americans over corporate greed and total economic collapse that Republicans visited upon this nation.
How can people forget where we were in 2008 - on the brink due to Republican malfeasance in office.
Wow talk about half a story, while I do feel for and support the people who got screwed the anger is misplaced, there is a whole other side to what happened and it all went on very covertly and buried under layers of deception.
Here is the other part of the story, read it before passing judgement. This is all about Delphi and how the pensions were stolen along with a lot of other shady deals and manipulations.
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza?rel=emailNation#
I feel so sorry for the people that have put their faith in the American way only to be kicked in the head later. Live aboard boat owners have to be the heartiest people that live a minimalist life style. Most people have no idea how hard it is to exist on the water with a place to dock treated as a commodity. Grrr America just looks down on anyone that doesn't fit the mold of a worker that toils at a grinding job for 40 years to pay off a 30 year mortgage. .. chapters omitted here! .. Good luck to you that escape the bounds of conformity.
Re-read the story. They only live on their boat for part of the time to save utility bills. As far as no TV or wristwatch, so what. is it because of money, or just a lifestyle choice. I know many people that have neither a TV or watch. Not so many that have tri-cabin boats.
At first glance, David Kane, 63, appears to be solidly middle class. He has a home on a lovely suburban street in Sandusky, Ohio, and a boat docked in the nearby marina.
But looks can be deceiving. Kane doesn’t have television or even a functioning wristwatch. He and his wife Dianne live on their boat, a 1976 Trojan Tri-Cabin in need of repair, for part of the year to save on utility costs. He does outdoor maintenance at the marina to pay for the docking fees
I don't have a TV (broke in the move out here) and get MORE news and channels on the computer than I ever got with satellite. Why buy another TV and pay more money for a redundant service? Haven't had a wristwatch (or feel the need to get one) since my band broke two years ago. I use my phone EVERYTHING: not just time, but dayplanner, alarm so I'm not late to meetings, everything - so why do I need to wear a watch again when my phone is so much more helpful and always accurate, and in more time zones?
Poor guy, doesn't have a TV.
He's missing such great programming as Honey Boo-Boo, American Idol, Dancing with the Stars......
Mary Miller, a divorced mother of four who worked at GM and Delphi for over 31 years, said the hit to her pension caused a true hardship.
“It's a struggle every day, and every time anything breaks, it's a near disaster,” she said, adding that she hasn’t had a working dishwasher for two years.
Are you kidding me? Mary cannot wash dishes by hand? Seriously, a dishwasher is a luxury, not a necessity. I have a diswasher and have yet to waste the energy in operating the machine. If Mary had a real issues, I could feel compassion. Her true hardship is severely different than my definition of a true hardship.
Remember, you are the 47% that Romney was saying feels like you're a victim and won't take responsibility for your life. The Republicans would have negotiated no retirement funds, no social security, no medicare, no savings.
If the Republicans get in then we can forget retirement and retirees.
And you must be on welfare worried that it might be taken away if Owebama looses.
Corporate welfare is at issue here, and Mitt just LOVES that.
That is funny how you try tying corporate welfare to Romney. Who was it that bailed out the UAW and GM???? Let's say it together....OBAMA !!!! Thanks to him you can kiss your grandchildren's savings goodbye. Romney hasn't done anything. Obama had his chance and F#@$ed it up. Time for a change.
Who was it that bailed out AIG and Goldman Sachs.......former Goldman Sachs insider Secretary of the Treasury Paulson.
That was one of the biggest wealth transfers in American History. Wall Street bet the subprime home mortgage industry, raked in huge profits (and bonus), and, when they oversold, the US taxpayer stepped in and assumed the risk.
Reward with no risk, American capitalism at it's finest.
For those of you that want to tell me it never happened, read Michael Lewis book "The Big Short, Inside the Doomsday Machine". He tells it in layman's terms.
Actually, IMHO paints an accurate view of "private restructuring." Follow Bain's efforts, GST for example, bankrupted the company by mortgaging it to the hilt, after buying it using GE's (Jack Welch's?) money and then taking the mortgage money as management fees. Today GST, which had two mills and 400 employees, is surviving as an employee buyout of bankruptcy with one mill and 80 employees. Ask them and the other 320 what they received.
Vouchers are nothing more than a means to first privatize and then eliminate Social Security and Medicare, with no reductions in taxation (use toward the debt?). Romney and Ryan talk of the legacy to the young, but but exempting those over 55 from this scheme, they actually condemn the young to the death of the current system AND the future elimination of vouchers as they age.
Any time, politicians set forward actions whose fulfillment will occur during another administration, they have an ulterior motive. By timing the sunset of GW Bush's tax cuts to a successor administration, that successor, a Democrat by the odds, can then be accused of raising taxes without actually doing anything. By pushing Obamacare's implementation to 2014, insurance companies were given an opportunity hike rates, whilst political foes kept states and the administration tied up in court.
And had GM and Chrysler failed, Ford would have followed as the industry supply chain collapsed. Ford repackaged its debt in 2007 to assure that it could continue to operate through a recession. It did not secure enough capital funding garuntees to rebuild an entire domestic industry. Nor would there have been private capital willing to invest in what would have looked like a futureless domestic industry.
"Old" GM shareholders were screwed from the word go, GM had too much debt for them to ever receive anything. Likewise some of the vendors were also left holding the bag. But did Professor Lewis also explain what the effect of an added 1.5 million unemployed autoworkers and suppliers would have done to the US economy? Or the collapse of Northern Mexican auto parts manufacture? Or, did he concentrate on politics?
I work full time in an auto supplier factory and I don't even make $1600 a month. Our pension is a 401K. Might as well go to Vegas and play the lottery. Odds are just as good in 15 years I might win enough for my retirement as not sure the stock market will be there.
So, to the man only getting $1600 a month. Downsize. Sell the boat. By yourself a watch and thank your lucky stars your still alive and have a home. If you can't afford it, there are cheaper homes and areas to live. And for the poor lady who has been without a dishwasher for two years, are you serious. I have never had one. That's what your dang two hands are for. Suck it up. I started this article with some sympathy, but when I read the boo-hooing, it turned my stomach. A lot of people on the east coast would love to have their boat back and a house to put their dishwasher in. Get over yourselves.
The progressives have a belief if everyone is middle class everything will be equal. There is one problem with this school of thought--If you have ever lived in a socialist country you know the only thing that is shared is misery and a very few people who are part of the DC elite have all the power and affluence. People like Presidents Clinton and Obama may act like they are connected with the common man but I can assure you unless they are campaigning would never have anything to do with them!
"..If you have ever lived in a socialist country you know the only thing that is shared is misery.."
-- I doubt that YOU have. Can you name a couple of things in our current society that tell you that we're anything close to a socialist country? Don't spread this FOX talking point about Obama being a socialist. Just don't vote for him if you don't like him!
Candy, depending on how you define a socialist country (Mexico was considered by some as a socialist country until the latter part of the new millenium) Ducky may very well have lived in a socialist country.
As for the second part of your question: the US is taking on more socialist programs through the expansion of social programs to include welfare. The funds needed to operate these program is derived from the requisite transfer of wealth from the working population (from people who scrape by to the mega wealthy) to those who subside predominantly on welfare by means of taxation.
I don't think all social programs are necessarily bad so long as they do not motivate people to avaid becoming active and productive citizens who contribute to society and uphold the principles on which this country was founded
All I can say is Welcome to the third world Economy. We are all going to be in the same boat before long. This is what Big business is waiting for. People are going to have such a hard time making ends meet that they will work for two dollars an hour like they do in the third world countries. The Wealthy get Wealthier and the poor get poorer. And then we will have an Upheavel like Syria, Libya, Egypt, etc. etc. It's around the corner.
Come the revolution!
Hate to break it to you guy, but the revolution already happened, your side lost.
Welcome to the proletariate.
While I think your predictions are a little drastic, one fact in history has been true in all societies. The rich have never revolted, but the poor have been more than willing to take the royalty to task.