E-mail updates
Follow on Twitter
Subscribe to RSS
The Momentive Performance Materials plant near Albany, N.Y.,
WATERFORD, N.Y. -- Momentive Performance Materials sprawls near the banks of the Hudson River, just outside Albany, N.Y., its silver silos and windowless sheds nestled in the low, rolling hills. Men who work there see deer on the road as they drive their pickups to work.
Inside the plant, the tranquility vanishes. It’s not just that the workers are handling toxic, explosive chemicals. That’s par for the course in silicone manufacturing. Many Momentive employees have been at the company for decades, back when it was part of General Electric. They accept the risks in exchange for a steady, sizable paycheck.
The problem is that the paycheck is neither as steady nor sizable as it used to be.
Apollo Global Management, a private equity firm, bought the former GE Advanced Material (Silicones & Quartz) in 2006 and renamed it Momentive. Two years later, in the middle of a three-year contract, Apollo slashed the wages of some 450 union workers by up to 40 percent. Suddenly, workers found themselves being paid what they had made 10 or 20 years earlier.(GE is a part owner of NBCUniversal, the parent company of NBC News.)
The Momentive workers were standing still, but the world was changing around them. A contract isn’t what it used to be. The men — and they are mostly men — at Momentive have what millions of unemployed Americans covet: a job. And not just any job, but a union job in manufacturing, the kind of job likely to get increasingly rare as right to work laws spread. But that job pays less than it did a decade ago, and many Momentive employees say they’re slipping backward. Some are losing their homes. This is job security in 2012, the new face of stability in the American workplace.
----------
Momentive produces silicones for dozens of familiar brand names. Its customers include Goodyear, Motorola, L’Oreal and The Home Depot. Its silicones are in caulks, gaskets, carpets and bedding. They’re the conditioning ingredient in “2-in-1” shampoo. When Neil Armstrong took his one giant leap, the sole of his moon boot was made of silicone rubber produced at the Waterford plant.
Workers used to make 700,000 pounds of silicone gum every week at the factory, according to one longtime Momentive worker, who like many others interviewed for this story spoke on condition of anonymity, fearing retribution from the company. Now, he says they make less than 200,000 pounds.
It’s not clear if the overall production has declined or been shifted elsewhere. In addition to its factory in New York, Momentive has factories in Ohio and West Virginia, Japan, Germany and Italy. A finishing plant started up in Chennai, India, in 2010, as did a joint venture in Jiande, China. Another Chinese plant is slated for completion in 2013.
Momentive declined to share production information, but in a statement it said, “Waterford continues to be an important facility in our North American network and we have recently consolidated our Silicones and Quartz divisional headquarters at this site. It is also critical that we continue to strengthen our global footprint, which will allow us to meet the needs of our geographically diverse customer base.”
----------
When GE spun off its silicones plant six years ago, the Waterford workers were apprehensive. They had a pretty good thing going, and most weren’t excited about a change. Back then, it wasn’t uncommon for a Momentive worker to take home $100,000 a year – serious money for seriously skilled labor. “I make more than some husbands and wives combined,” one man told me. But, he said, “It’s not a perfume factory down there.” The plant operates 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. The men say they regularly worked 60- to 70-hour weeks, including overtime. Schedules of seven days on, one day off, seven days on again were common, they say.
As the union negotiated its first contract with Apollo, it was bracing for major cuts, said Dominick Patrignani, president of IUE-CWA Local 81359, part of the Communications Workers of America, which represents workers at the Waterford plant. Apollo’s $3.8 billion acquisition of the company, completed in December 2006, was financed with more than $3 billion in debt, and workers figured the company would be tightening the belt.
To their surprise, the agreement reached was nearly identical to the previous contract under GE. The three-year contract, which covered two locals at the Waterford plant and workers at a Momentive facility in Ohio, was signed in October 2007. A company newsletter praised it, saying it “locks in gains in pay and pensions” and “retains key job security provisions.”
That didn’t last.
In December 2008, days before Christmas, more than 400 hourly workers at Momentive’s Waterford plant were called in to speak with their supervisors. One by one, workers were told that their pay would be cut, workers say. They would be assigned to new jobs, with new duties and wages.
In its written statement, Momentive said it has had to make “difficult decisions regarding our operations in a challenging economic environment to remain competitive on a local and global basis.”
Workers were told that the pay cuts sought to bring their wages in line with the prevailing wage in the region, they said. But as several noted, others in Saratoga County don’t work with toxic and dangerous materials. Their wages should be compared to those of workers in the chemical sector, they said.
Those new wages also varied wildly, according to documents obtained through a Freedom of Information request to the National Labor Relations Board. One man, a 35-year veteran of the plant, dropped from $29.11 an hour to $17. Another, closing in on 20 years at the company, dropped from $29.11 to $19.50. A man with two years on the job kept his $29.11 wage rate. The longest-tenured worker, with more than 39 years of experience, went from $29.11 to $24. A plant services operator, hired in 1978, found himself earning $14 an hour — a cut of almost $12 from his previous wage.
“Guys with a year or two of service ended up with a higher rate than I did,” said one longtime worker who has two children in college. Before the cuts, he earned $27.31 an hour His new hourly wage was $19.50.
The wage cuts were like “an attack on my family,” another Momentive employee said. He has two children, too, and he regularly worked 70-hour weeks to “give them a good opportunity to go to a good school, get a good education, without going into debt.”
If the company had proposed a 5 to 10 percent pay cut for all workers, including management and technicians, that would have been easier to swallow, several men told me. “It was the arbitrariness that really pissed everyone off,” one said.
In fact, Momentive executives did take a 10 percent pay cut, in April 2009. But in January 2010, just as the workers’ pay cuts took effect, the executives’ “temporary pay reduction” was reversed, “as a result of the recovery in our business,” according to the company’s 2010 annual report.
As the Momentive workers saw it, the abrupt wage changes violated the contract signed in 2007, less than 18 months before the pay cuts were imposed. The local representing the affected workers filed 477 separate complaints with the National Labor Relations Board in January 2009, one for each affected worker. They asserted that Momentive “has been engaging in unfair labor practices,” by changing wages, promotion, how people got overtime — all things spelled out in the original contract.
The company argued asserted that negotiating wage and rate changes at the local plant level was allowed, under the terms of the national agreement. The company said the changes were needed to stay competitive and bring wages in line with the skills required.
More than a year later, following months of investigation, the NLRB responded. The board’s regional director found that Momentive had indeed “failed to continue in effect all the terms and conditions of the National Agreement.” In other words, it had broken the contract. The order also found that Momentive had failed to bargain collectively with the union in violation of the law.
The board sought an order requiring the company to restore the wage scale, rate, progression, job descriptions, and several other points. The board also wanted the company to pay interest on any back pay or other monetary awards.
The NLRB scheduled a hearing for April 5, 2010. That hearing got pushed to June, in hopes that the union and the company would reach a settlement, a common move in such cases.
But June 2010 was also when the original three-year contract — the one Momentive had broken with the wage cuts — was slated to expire. When Momentive executives proposed a deal, the union found itself negotiating a settlement and a new contract at the same time.
The proposed settlement was simple: the 400-plus workers whose wages were cut would get back pay covering their lost earnings. Going forward, though, they’d all be getting the new, lower wage, in their newly defined positions. The company agreed to a $2 an hour bump — on the reduced pay. The NLRB case would be closed, ending any negotiation over job descriptions or the other issues in dispute.
Workers said the company dangled the settlement payments at the vote on the contract, held in the company firehouse at the Waterford plant. “They had a box of envelopes, and the envelopes had statements in them with a number, how much money each worker would get in back pay, under the settlement,” one recalled.
They also warned that “if you keep going with the NLRB action, it could take years,” several employees said.
By the time of the settlement proposal, which called for payments of more than $10,000 for many of the workers and more than $30,000 for some, many whose wages had been cut were struggling. “They were just so desperate,” one said. “They were just in a hole,” another added.
Still, workers in Local 81359 say they voted down the contract, preferring to move forward with the NLRB action.
But they weren’t the only local voting. The contract covers three bargaining units, including another local in the plant, representing salaried and technical workers, and workers at an Ohio branch. Although those workers didn't have their pay cut, and weren’t covered by the settlement, they had a say in whether it would be approved or rejected, because it was tied to the contract. Those locals voted to approve the proposal, and the contract was ratified. The Local 81359 workers got back pay with interest, but the wage cuts would stand.
Not everyone at Momentive took a pay cut.
Steven Delarge, a Momentive executive, received a bonus of more than $400,000 in 2010, in part for his role in “the successful completion of collective bargaining agreements” with union workers, according to the company’s annual report. He also got a raise, bumping his salary from just under $400,000 to $450,000 in 2011. He has since left the company.
Momentive CEO Jonathan Rich received a bonus of $1.3 million for the year, The bonus was based on “the achievement of applicable performance targets,” according to the company’s annual report, which stated, “The Company achieved its primary environmental objective and, although it did not achieve its safety objective, the results were improved over the prior year.” Rich, who left the company in October 2010, also received severance payments of $975,000, and an additional $350,000, the reasons for which are not spelled out in company filings. His total compensation for the year was more than $6.5 million, according to company documents.
Andrew H. Walker / Getty Images file
Leon Black, shown here at the Museum of Modern Art's annual party in New York City in 2007.
The current executives, Craig Morrison and William Carter, are well-compensated, too. Morrison’s total compensation was nearly $3.5 million in 2011, Carter’s more than $2.6 million.
Apollo Chairman and CEO Leon Black is also doing well. Last year, he celebrated his 60th birthday with a blowout at his Hamptons home, featuring “a seared foie gras station” and a $1 million performance by Elton John, according to the New York Times. Apollo Global Management declined to comment for this article.
Read Part 2: After buyout, workers get a lesson in modern economics.
More from Open Channel:
- Critical EPA report highlighting chemical dangers to kids is sidetracked
- Despite warnings, aging firefighting aircraft still flying -- and crashing
- Kitchen calamity: Reports of shattering cookware are on the rise
- Authorities establish timeline of gun purchases in Conn. school shooting
- Paula Broadwell won't face cyberstalking charges in Petraeus scandal
- New details emerge on private lives of school gunman and his mother
- Mom of suspected shooter, first to die, was avid gun enthusiast
Follow Open Channel from NBCNews.com on Twitter and Facebook
Leave a Comment:
I am not pro union always even though I was a union member at one point. However, these workers who were obviously screwed are human beings with families not some amorphous mass. Shame on management.
I agree. I have worked in a union. It was not a good union either. Paid high dues to see shady deals between union bosses, who never saw until contract time, and management. The plant ended up closing and going overseas, while keeping one "foot" in another state. In this case, I believe that the upper management was targeting the "lifers" so they could give themselves a big fat raise!
This slays me. Yet, there are people who believe that deregulation spreads prosperity. Oh, right ... that only works for those at the top that don't work with the toxic chemicals for 70+ hours per week.
It's going to take an enormous social media event, similar to one that began the "Arab Spring/awakening" to set a new agenda. However, do a majority, of what was/is the middle class, have the balls to to see it through?
Not until China, India and the rest of the world's employees demand equal pay will we be able to live the way we have in the past. My wife and I only have one car now, we can't afford 2, are you next?
@ Confussed
"An enormous social media event", it’s not like other developed and developing countries don’t have the same hierarchical situations that we in the US have! Even China is well connected today, though sometimes they have to go around the blocking in indirect ways!
What these companies fail to realize is America is the buying power that they're killing, you should expand your manufacturing all good and well and reap profits only to protect your home base,"the buying power",These CEO's are worse than politicians.
America has been downsizing since the 1970's, we have outsourced a nation,we build almost nothing here anymore; the workers are peasants , the little funny man Boss Ross, was right in what he predicted.
Companies and jobs like that made America what it used to be: an envy of the whole world. But the international capital holders and the crooked US politicians put an end to this great country.
Get over it. It's now an international economy. Sorry, but products can now be made much cheaper overseas. If you don't like it, start your own company. I did.
This isn't an isolated occurrence. It's happened over and over, all across the country. THIS is what's happened to the American middle class.
Shame on management? Sure, but shame on all of us for not seeing the truth when it's right before our eyes. Instead, we let Limbaugh, Hannity and company tell us what to think.
If they'll stop listening to Rush, maybe they can remember where they put their balls.
Quit your whining and start your own company if you don't like it. Geez, liberals are such whiny, little b_tches.
Unions are the Axis of Evil, after all they stand up for the middle class instead of the 2%. I don't see the managers taking any cuts, only the productive people. Keep on bashing those unions, ending collective bargaining, allowing employers to abrogate contracts single handedly, slashing wages and benefits for everybody that works. Right to work for less while your bosses make millions. Love that TeaParty.
Bobster, you're an as$hole. Your opinion is worth little.
Tracey,
Typical, liberal response: Hate and jealousy.
Liberals. God love em! LOL!
So what does your company do, Bobster? Import toxic dog food from China?
The question is why GE sold this company, I guess they got tired dealing with the demands of the Union. Unions are killing America Manufacturing Industry, RTW states are much better without unions, those are the places where new industries are going. .GE is a part owner of NBCUniversal, the parent company of NBC News, this actual news ,and the largest job outsourcer , sending thousands of jobs to foreign countries. GE should lead with examples instead criticise to others just because they own part of the media industry and his CEO is Obama top Job adviser.
Confussed-1578043
As much as I’d like to agree with your optimism for the past, I don’t think we’re ever going to see the “good ole days” again. At least not any time soon.
We have to be realistic, we are and will need to continue to be in the global economy. We have been spoiled by the post WW II prosperity that we enjoyed. We have to realize that the rest of the world is catching up to us. In 1960 there were 3 billion people on the planet, today, 50 years later, we have over 7 billion. Contrary to our nationalistic beliefs, the world has as much right to create industries and subsequently commerce for their people.
Outside of the 300+ million people here, there are over 6.7 billion people in the global economy. We can look at these as competition or consumers. Either way, it’s good. In order for the free-market to allow prosperity and increasing standards of living you need both consumers and competition. The problem is that we will see a decrease in wages and most likely some benefits for the foreseeable future.
We have lived, as a nation, far beyond our means and the message is, for the foreseeable future, that we will be forced to live beneath our means as this debt is paid. In order to maintain our elevated standard of living we have made one dramatic mistake, we have lived a consumption based lifestyle driven by massive debt, both public and private. We want higher wages, yet we also want cheaper consumables. This was possible for the 30-40 years post WW II, it no longer is. Immediately after the war we were the only standing manufacturing nation, the world needed to be rebuilt and rebuild it we did.
Today the rest of the world is catching up to us with growing economies based on manufacturing and services. As these emerging economies expand our dominance will suffer. As we have seen the exodus of many jobs to more affordable havens we need to adapt. The days of unskilled, illiterate, high school, or even college, dropouts earning $70,000 with benefits can be considered gone. These jobs will remain offshore and the more high skilled jobs is where our future will be.
The problem is, it will take us a generation, or more, to educate the type of workforce that will be competitive at a sustainable wage with job security. Our criminal government run Public Education system has been an abysmal failure preparing our graduates to be competitive in the new global markets. We have been graduating illiterates for a few decades that will struggle as the job market becomes more and more specialized. We need to promote the STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) curriculums in order to be more competitive. Unfortunately these are the industries that require the most time and effort to complete. Most parents in our country are incapable of helping their children in these subjects let alone promote them.
We have severe systemic defects that need to be fixed. From irrational trade agreements, to a criminal and outdated progressive tax code, industry damaging regulations, corrupt union intervention and no definable energy policy we have been lacking leadership.
As long as we keep insisting on living under 20th century Keynesian and Progressive ideologies we will continue to fail. The 21st century demands we become aggressive in our development of a growing and prosperous economy. The longer we delay this the worse our lives will become.
It’s time to make serious decisions and take dramatic steps. Unfortunately I doubt the cowards in our government are willing to do this. If this is the case the outcomes like Momentive will become more and more common. I’ll take Reagans and Clintons growth and prosperity even with those tax rates as long as we get spending down to their rates also.
I’m not holding my breath.
The new face of job security: "May I take your order please?"
When will the rule of the plutocrats end? We were strong and thriving when we were less a plutocracy. If you think now, study economic history. Black, et al. need to be toppled and we return to a more equal society that we had for so long.
NAs long the international community don't engage with countries where basic labor rights are not jet in effect , were children works in toxic manufacturing plants , where China is allowed to skip simple environmental regulation because China is not a development country , there is nothing more we can do , other then stop buying products made in those countries. My question is, if you are really sincere about your convictions that outsourcing jobs fabor CEOs , big Corporations and hurt Union workers, SHUT UP and do not buy products made in China.
littleoldlady3
When will the rule of the plutocrats end?
Another socialists looking for failed policies. Soviet Union era is over.
To Jim Spence:
Horse Pucky. Take your libertarian free market nonsense and peddle it elsewhere. It's your beiefs and type that have brought the U.S. to its knees, not what you are arguing against. We are a big market. Slam the "free trade" doors shut and see how fast those outsiders will be clamoring to get in. It's the wholesale outsourcing of our industries that has created this problem. Impose "import" taxes on all things manufactured abroad, and see how fast our own manufacturing industries will return.
People are missing the point here a bit. The execs claim they have to reduce all the salaries of the people who actually labor in the manufacturing.....yet they all get big bonuses.....claiming that they have to reduce salaries to be competitive, they are losing money, blah blah blah. This is the new business model in the US. And when they have squeezed all they can out of it they somehow move on to they next exec job b/c they can bring in the big bucks for the big guys. They are peices of crap. They work hard to put as much money in their pocket as possible before turning off the lights. How can it be OK to tell everyone they have to take pay cuts but you and your cronies get millions in bonuses for almost meeting the safety standards?? And just to make it politcal, this is the type of stuff Romney did for a living. Lovely.
bobster-155,
Just start a company? Well now, that's really a constructive solution isn't it. It ranks right up there with "I can't afford food so I should just stop eating". DUH.
Looks like taxpapyer dollars wasn't enough, so we give it all to the Chinese.
LovelyI doubt ignorant Obama voters even care… 1/4 billion Tax Payers Money tossed down the green rat hole. They make good cell phone batteries, not so much car batteries.
The Detroit News reports that China's Wanxiang Group Corporation will acquire almost all of bankrupt A123 Systems Inc. for $256 million. The deal includes all of the American battery manufacturer's grid and commercial business assets as well as the company's facilities in Michigan, Massachusetts and Missouri. Meanwhile, Woodridge, Illinois-based Navitas Systems will purchase all of A123 Systems' government contracts for $2.25 million.
Are you going to blame Romney too, for Obama's failures?
There is no such thing as job security. This international economic system promoted by Ben Bernanke, the IMF, and the World Bank is the biggest proponent of slavery, and not overt physical slavery, but subtle economic slavery.
They have already enslaved many countries by forcing them to take a debt they could never pay off (see Latin American Countries, Asia; Confessions of an Economic Hitman), but now you're seeing what they did to Europe (Spain, Greece).
They talk countries into spending money they would otherwise not spend, saying they will get huge economic growth (which they know is a lie), then give the country a loan they cannot pay off; when the country does not pay it off, then they come in with their friends who basically take over the country's resources at prices below market (like a foreclosure), and suddenly that country basically loses it sovereignty to the criminals that tricked them in the first place. It is the biggest scam happening today. Now you're seeing Greece selling its islands to "investors" to pay off its debt.
This exact thing is happening in America. Pretty soon, you'll see the US selling its resources to "foreign investors" to pay off debt. This is actually happening with lower wages in the American workforce; who do you think is getting the greatest benefit from that?
CRCTODAY & Sandmantruth: You're spot on, mates. THIS IS THE NEW BUSINESS MODEL: its been around for the last ten years and has wrecked havoc in the US. The 'cuts' go to management, then when they've finally drained every last ounce of energy out of a business (the workers) they shut it down and walk with the money. The rich get richer and the middle class and poor get poorer. There will only be two classes of people soon enough: the rich and the surfs.
HERE LIES THE MIDDLE CLASS : GOD SAVE US ALL.
Oskar.....what the hell does this have to do with Obama? BTW. ALex, it's serfs!
oskar-1391552
As patriotic as that may sound I challenge you to go to any big-box retailer and buy a toaster, t-shirts and sneakers “Made in the USA”!
Good luck.
First of all, Americans are tapped out. A report out just today shows that all the pre-election bluster about the economy recovering and Americans spending was bull$hit, as many of us knew it would be. Sales of electronics, clothing, jewelry and home goods increased by a pathetic 0.7 percent compared with last year. This is far below the 3-4 percent that analysts expected, and was the worst year-over-year performance since 2008. Americans are concerned and scared. No one knows what will happen with the future of this abysmal Obama recovery. Uncertainty is driving our economy into the ground.
To think with a workforce that has 23 million still under/unemployed and a looming fiscal cliff with sequestration threats will somehow magically just start spending indiscriminately is delusional. Our government has done absolutely nothing to improve the economic atmosphere in our great Republic. I’m not talking about the mediocre job creation, as a result of the $timulu$, it’s about everything that needs to be reformed. But of course Barrack Hussein doesn’t want Americans to succeed, he just wants you to be middle-class. It’s much easier to promote mediocrity than exceptionalism.
The days of us making advances in our standard of living by producing toasters and sneakers here are long gone. Many of you can hope that change will happen to those “good ole days”, but I think you will be disappointed. We need to be the driving force in the world in science, technology, math and engineering, not manual labor that the rest of the world can do for fractions of the cost.
The world wide market is not going to pay unskilled workers $100,000 per year. Companies in the US compete in the international market.
Having said that, I have a problem with cutting the pay of the workers while the guys at the top get huge bonuses. With all the executive layoffs, the "market pay" for bigshots should be declining as well.
Back in the 80s, I made like 40 to 50 grand a year as a financial guy on the way up. The company president made 400 grand. Hourly workers made about 20 to 25. That seemed fair. Today the middle managers and the hourly guys still make about the same, but the guy at the top makes 4 million.
Something is wrong. I anti union, but also anti big shots raping the company.
Guess I am just a grinch.
JimSpence per 1.16
I agree with you to the extent that we have a complex set of actions to change (not necessarily the same position you have). But that’s a matter of debate.
Ours and the other countries populous need to have “a convincing feeling” that there is since of security and relative fairness in the environment in which they live. I believe that only then can rational examination of the issues you have conveyed be determined.
Breathing with deep breaths!
bobster: "Geez, liberals are such whiny, little b_tches. " Check your mirrors, bobster.
Be interesting to chart the average worker's wage vs the CEO and other officers from 1990 to the present at this firm. Would mean little to some of us, would be very enlightening to others. The "Gush Up" economic model? I think we all understand the dynamics of the "Trickle Down" model.
Once people, especially employees, realize that the sole object of a corporation, especially an international or large corporation, is to MAXIMIZE PROFIT then they will see why cuts are made everywhere possible, including wages and benefits of employees. It is not done for personal reasons but profit numbers MUST be increased according to our economic model --CAPITALISM! The stockholders demand dividends and interest returns for their investment and they hold management responsible for these profit and growth figures. Management, on the other hand, claims they are 'ONLY' doing what the shareholders demand. The shareholders claim management makes the decisions on personnel and all other company policy. NEITHER management nor stockholders (owners) take MORAL RESPONSIBILITY! It's a tough game and it is played for keeps! I totally disagree with this "profit at any cost" mentality, but that seems to be the name of the game at present throughout the U.S. and the world. When abuses get to the point that they are intolerable to the vast majority of people WE WILL see economic revolution, perhaps social revolution as well, and a redistribution of economic resources and thus wealth. This has been true throughout history; it will be true in the future. Did I mention the short name for this economic model of Capitalism? It is GREED!
Acosmet
We do have significant systemic defects. The longer we delay the Draconian changes we need, the longer will be the American peoples suffering.
Many are parroting the typical knee-jerk reactions to the fiscal and monetary malfeasance we have seen for the past 100 years under Progressivism and Keynesianism. This nonsense about tariffs is laughable. Obviously they never studied the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act that FDR created which kept our economy on the verge of collapse for years. Nationalism/Isolationism has never worked and never will.
This convoluted belief that upper management making more is some type of recent event is pure nonsense. This has been going on since the first exchange of commerce occurred. The Vanderbilts, Westinghouses, Morgans and others all made multiples of the average wage earners. Hell at one point J. P. Morgan was worth over $600 billion in today’s dollars.
Your comment about “relative fairness” interests me. Tell me, how do you define “fair”? what is a “fair share” or a “level playing field”? More importantly, who is the unbiased arbiter that can determine what is fair or on a level playing field? Is it you, or me, or Barrack Hussein, Big Bird, the Pope? Who is this mythical puritan who can decide that?
The only way anything can be “fair” is if it is mathematical. Everyone pays 25% in taxes or whatever percentage you want to use. Anything other than that is biased based on emotion, not policy.
Yes, this is the 'new' American dream as touted by the GOP. What's not mentioned is the dream is built on the ashes of the middle class. This is being repeated all over America as businesses that are profitable (just not profitable enough) are moved overseas or workers' wages are gutted so profits can be increased until the CEO can afford a million-dollar performance by Elton John at their birthday party. And once those wages disappear out of the US economy, we all end up a little poorer.
And before Hostess is brought up, let me point out that mismanagement was their primary problem. They went under not so much because of labor costs, but because of falling sales; selling an inherently unhealthy product is not a business model for continued success, no matter what your labor costs are. Cutting wages merely delays the inevitable.
Keep it up corporate America; when the starveling hordes show up at your gated communities with their NRA-guaranteed guns, I hope the memory of your profits are solace enough before you're butchered like the pigs you are...
It's funny how the pro-capitalism crowd here conveniently ignore the portions of the story surrounding executive pay. It's amusing to me when they preach about historic executive pays in relation to lowest salaried workers as being a red herring, but when considering historic means of production for other countries; history then bears repeating.
It is a FACT that: The gaps in after-tax income between the richest 1 percent of Americans and the middle and poorest fifths of the country more than tripled between 1979 and 2007.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3220
People like "bobster 4645363" and JimSpence are either paid shills or dirt-trolls looking for an online argument. Either way, their advice should be immediately ignored. They do not bring any facts to the discussion.
I do agree with Acosmet that a revolution will occur (of some proportion) if this economic middle class onslaught continues from the uber-elite. These snake-oil hucksters can not continue to bare-bone companies and siphon all the wealth out of them as they exit through the back door. And the outsourcing window needs to be nail and painted shut.
Our founding fathers and ancestors did not fight and die for Independence only to have the plutocrats homogenize our economy with the rest of the third world nations. All for the sake of the almighty dollar.
Back when Clinton was pushing NAFTA Ross Perot (remember him?) was saying if Clinton signed on to NAFTA, that big sucking sound you will hear is all the American jobs going overseas. You know what? He was exactly right. How could any reasonable person think that with labor cost so much cheaper overseas that anything else could possible happen?
Besides, if the workers at this and other such facilities skill levels can be replicated by third world workers at a fraction of the wages they're paid, what other result can be expected?
There was a reason that GE wanted to divest itself of this and other such companies in the first place.
@JimSpence
Interesting......... while disagreeing with some of what you have said, and agreeing with most, this is probably the most accurate and positive economic statement you have put forth in your past comments on this subject.
Also interesting that while promoting STEM, you kind of bash its creator and his policies. He has said from the beginning of his term there is a severe problem with our educational system NOT contributing to our economic development..... too many Indians, not enough chiefs.
Don't know how old you are, but we have been in trouble since ESEA. While having many good initial purposes (except in not stating that the money MUST be used for students...not building improvements and the like...)and is STILL needed today , Title I has been damaged and warped, almost IRREPARABLY and bastardly by NLCB and the standardized testing-based distribution of funding. But methinks this is a discussion for another thread......
Let Conservativism turn their heads to changing Title 1 back to it's original intent. Promoting better education country-wide, and concentrate those funds into programs like STEM, as you suggest. Then we may have the next big economic boom out of technology, where it seems to be coming from now.............
SDN
I'm not sure about this firms disparity, but here is a link to the meteoric rise of CEO wages vs. worker wages in the 90's. I imagine we can just extrapolate the numbers across the board. Notice that in 1989 the ratio was about 50:1 but by 2000 it has skyrocketed to over 400:1.
Here is the link (see Fig. A)
http://www.epi.org/publication/ib331-ceo-pay-top-1-percent/
"Shame on Management???????"
You have got to be kidding.
Management cannot "slash the wages" of Union employees by 40% without the explicit consent of the Union.
The Union doesn't care about workers, so long as they PAY THEIR UNION DUES. Unions today will accept any kind of bad deal, so long as the factory stays open and they hire people (at whatever wages) and those people PAY THEIR UNION DUES.
I worked as a Teamster for UPS and made $8 an hour. The older workers under the "old" contract got $16 an hour. They cut wages in HALF for new workers.
But the Union Dues were the same amount!
Maybe if Union Dues were based on wages, the Unions would actually fight for the workers.
Blame management? That's a cop-out. The Union rolled over on this....
"Two years later, in the middle of a three-year contract, Apollo slashed the wages of some 450 union workers by up to 40 percent."
Correction - With the CONSENT OF THE UNION, they slashed wages 40 percent!
@Gary 420
Unskilled Labor?!
What part of handling and mixing toxic and explosive chemicals on a daily basis do you think is unskilled? Are you one of those idiots who think that "skilled labor" only exists for people in the white-collar world, and requires a Masters Degree?
Those men in the article work a job that is far more dangerous than anything you will ever do, and requires far more knowledge and skill than you will ever possess.
And I say this as a computer software engineer, with a degree and a white-collar job. Those guys do work that I could never do, and they deserve to paid for the knowledge and skill required for such a dangerous job.
Just because it doesn't require a college degree, doesn't make it "unskilled labor". McD's is unskilled labor. Working at a chemical plant, where one mistake could cost you a limb or your life, is not.
His idea of skilled labor must be a gold-collared bank hussy who shuffles papers from one side of his desk to the other while playing roulette with thousands of peoples pensions and life savings. LOTS of economic value added there /sarc
There's nothing worst than a working Union member bitching & crying about a fair wage! The Co. should have closed 2 wks. before Christmas, laid off all greedy union trolls, no paid holiday, no bonus, Nada!!!! Then moved to Michigan next year... Unions breed violence & division...
You want a method for calculating fair?
Base product prices on percentage of income just like the taxes you cited. It would be the most unbiased, mathematical calculation possible while dealing with the income/wealth disparity we have today.
Unbelievable-895817
I’m not sure who you mean as “creator” and policy maker of STEM, but our companies have been promoting this for over 20 years. There is a significant difference however, in what we promote.
We promote the dramatic reform of our primary and secondary education system, in other words our K-12 system. We can’t expect to produce the millions of STEM workforce employees if we graduate illiteracy from our parochial system.
Most Americans read at an 8th grade level. Most high school graduates can’t use—there, their and they’re—correctly in a sentence. Ask a high school senior to calculate 60% of 770 in their head and their ears start smoking.
We spend more than any country, other than Switzerland, on education and we rank in the bottom ½ to 1/3 of all other OECD nations in math, science and reading. This past summer the Chicago Public Schools went on strike for more money, less time teaching and no performance testing for teachers. This is their 11th Graders Meeting College Readiness Benchmarks: 21% in Reading, 19% in Math, 11% in Science, 38% in English.
If this is the future of our STEM goals we will slowly sink into 3rd world status. How can we expect our overpriced colleges and universities to produce the workforce we need to compete in the 21st century economy if the kids can’t even master elementary skills?
Our Public Education system must be totally reformed into a private entity otherwise we might as well just become accustomed to living the way we are today.
JimSpence, your ignorance is showing....
Smoot-Hawley was entirely a republican bill, written and sponsored by two republicans, passed by a republican congress with few democratic votes, and signed into law by President Hoover in 1930; two years before FDR was elected. This was pointed at as one of the causes of the Great Depression, all engineered by the GOP.
True, but you're conveniently forgetting (again) that this was addressed. The Sherman Anti-Trust laws, the income tax, many other laws were passed to prune the power of the robber barons. Theodore Roosevelt in particular recognised the danger of an unrestrained plutocracy and actively campaigned against them.
The lessons of the Great Depression have been forgotten. Since the acension of 'Saint Ronnie' in the GOP pantheon, they have worked unrelentingly to roll back the hard-won protections that came out of that and those results are showing up. Their pledges of 'Don't worry, we're not like that anymore' were proved false in 2008 yet the false prophets still claim only 'they' know the way. It didn't work in 1930, it won't work now... no matter how many times the right insists it will.
does anyone believe the downsizing of America was by accident, it was planned by the new world order crowd(dem & rep.) we were the envy of the world;
footwear, we produced the best and most in the entire world(all gone overseas)
fasteners(nails ,screws, bolts, etc, ours was the highest quality) all gone overseas, junk coming in now.
appliances(we produced the best and the most.(now 96% made in China.
auto we shipped the technology overseas and produced out of date equipment.
clothing try to find U.S. made.(all junk now.
the new bridge in San Franscio, (being built with Chinese labor and brittle Chinese steel.
Pharmacuetical industry (we led the world in quality(now overseas production almost 100% ( recall after recall).
computer and electronics we invented and produced , now 100% overseas production;
"unregulated Capitalism is feudalism" Theodore Roosevelt.
Crazy Steve-1996926
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!
You must have me confused with someone who gives a $hit about Republicans or Democrats. All of their policies, especially all the entitlement and social programs, are the reason our economy is the shambles it is today.
The Sherman Anti-Trust laws? Really? I challenge you to start a phone company today. How about a home improvement center to rival Lowe’s or Home Depot? How about we just start up a bank and see how long it takes us to compete with Golden Sacks, BofA or J. P. Morgan Chase? Maybe you prefer a software company like Microsoft. Your delusion of antitrust laws went out in the 90’s when the housing and liquidity collapse was beginning. This all promoted by Clintons insulting Brooksley Born, creating the “National Homeownership Strategy: Partners in the American Dream”, repealing Glass-Steagall and other disasters.
Just what hard–won protections were lost under Reagan?
Mr Bell,
Obviously you are one of many that have no idea !! the unions of today are powerless and corporations break agreements all the time. the only recourse is to strike and I would guess management would just close the site down.
The corporate model of today is out of control and that is why labor suffers and management continues to make unheard of amounts of money !!!
And you have the same disdain for facts....
And bringing up Goldman Sachs (note the correct spelling), Bank of America, etc, simply points out how badly these laws have been damaged.
Politics and such aside, there is one glaringly toxic thing which the majority of the world's -- and especially the U.S.'s -- CEOs have in common.
They claim to be "Christian".
Think about for more than just a few minutes, and you should be able to understand what that means.
Crazy Steve-1996926
And yet you Libbies still believe our criminal government wants to fix these damaged laws. We only have 145,000 pages of regulations in the CFR at a cost of $1.75 trillion to our economy annually but you think more will fix all our problems.
Your delusions are only surpassed by your indoctrination into the "Life of Julia" cabal.
BTW, the misspelling of Golden Sacks was intentional.
Try to keep up Spanky.
First, where did I say I was liberal? And where did I advocate the slathering of more regulations onto the heap we already have? What we need is a 'clean slate' rewrite, but neither party has the stomach for it; both are in thrall to big business to one degree or the other, the Democrats only paying lip service to the 'little people', the Republicans whole-heartedly in favor of giving business whatever they want. A poor choice, but lip service is better than no service.
And I don't want to keep up with you; you're running towards a dystopian future of the rich and not-rich, a communistic society that instead of worshipping Marx will have only wealth as it's God.
@Richard Why, is getting together and starting a company too much work?
To claim that the manufacture industry can survive, with such high costs of the labor is an
illusion and pure fantasy, worse even if the increases of wages and benefits
are applied directamenta to the production costs. It is obvious that in a
globalized world where industries compete globally makes us almost impossible
to export manufactured products with high labor cost. Our country has lagged
behind living in the fantasy of a glorious past of manufacturing country. Our
systems of education at the hands of liberal and progressive groups for whom
the social affairs are more important, they are responsible to educate our
population and have them ready for the
changes that demand a globalized world, where the competition is not among the
country's manufacturing industry. if not with all the other nations of the
world. Our country would only be able to get out of this production
stagnation, the high deficit on our
balance of trade , is geared toward the production of goods and services requiring more skilled labor,
where the cost of the product or service justifies a high cost of labor. Compliance
with international standards of work, management of the currency, environmental
regulations are part of a climate positive for trade, but given the high
external indebtedness of our country, thanks to administrations irresponsible,
being precisely our creditors, those countries that violate international laws,
it limits our ability to demand their compliance.
Better than HOSTESS, at least they are still working.....
Its shameful these simpleton, pompous posters saying 'just srtart a business'....F-U. Not every omne can do that, not to mention the lack of small business lending and general unavailavility of capital. This 'just start your own business' is crap by people who 'got theirs' so screw averyone else.
Face it, unless you have a banker firend, you arent gettiubng a business loan. So lets stop prert5ending theat the Answeer for eceyone is starting up a bsuiness, because its just not a viable solutionm for most.
I am equally disturbed at the 'oh, well, at least they are working' B.S. And the all to familiar and generally insulting 'Its a globa; economy'
If the CORPORATE PIGS get their way the 200:1` Executive to worker wage ratio is going to get a whole lot wider, and the workers a whole lopt ANGRIER. Wages are being driven doen by killinhg unions and outsaourcing.
Corporate America has SOLD OUT AMERICA, and there will come a day soon where the low wages and disappearing benefits will result in the crash of consumer spending. I guess my 'uncertainty' means I just stop buyimng products, then. Good lucj making your f-ing exec bonus off declkining sales.
Eat the rich...the attitude may taste like $%@, but it goes real good with wine.
The WHORING out of America by the Corporate pigs
That is why we should tax these CEO's at a rate of 90%, to recover all the money they are stealing from the workers. They should not be allowed to keep it. Let the rich pay for the national debt and deficit. If they are unwilling to pay workers, we gotta get that money back out of them one way or another; and if they try to run off to some other country, we should send out assassins and rub them out. They are nothing but thieves.
While raising the top tax rate back to pre-Reagan days would be a start, there's another solution; don't let them deduct as a business expense these outrageous salaries. This has been proposed before (and I suspect it will be again shortly if Elizabeth Warren has anything to say about it); limit salary/wage expenses as corporate tax deductions to a maximum ratio of 40:1 (highest to lowest employee compensation). If the shareholders wish to pay these outsized salaries, let them take out out of their dividends and/or profits, rather than having all taxpayers subsidize them with lowered corporate taxes.
2-Lane Gypsy
Hmmm, seems like some sour grapes there Gyppy.
Why didn't you start a business in the early 2000's when everyone was making good money. Or why didn't you start a business in the mid to late 90's when the dot-com bubble was growing. You could get money anywhere back in those era's.
I started 5 different businesses over the past 30 years. I grew 3 of them and sold them and still sit on the Boards to make sure they continue to prosper and grow. Only 2 of the businesses I started were in areas that I would claim I had expertise in. You Libbies tell everyone you're the "forward" party but it seems you're all stuck in park. Time to start taking some chances in life or just accept what you get.
Try to keep up Sparky.
The fat porker in the tux shown at the end of the article is who the Republicans in D.C. are trying to protect. Just like Romney at Bain, they come in cut, shear, dump and rake in the millions. They could care less that they are flushing the middle class.
This is the result of the systematic destruction of unions by business forces and their Republican functionaires.
@JimSpence
What I was waiting for........ With all the private entities working already, you would think there would me some marked improvement, but alas, educational objectives have gotten worse. Private(Charter) Schools have taken the money train straight to Title I as well.... I see you neglected to mention this. Same problem, no new answer. Corporate(Conservative) Welfare in the Education arena..... Teaching to the Gubment' "money tests".
I notice there was NO reply to the re-shaping of Eisenhower's Title I objectives by the right (and admittedly... Teddy Kennedey...). It is no loner the long term program that it set out to be. Obama's STEM stance could have been EASILY integrated into it 4 yrs ago(if implemented correctly...) to help solve the Solar Wall problem, and improved it. The Algae Shortcomings need help as well. Wind Efficiency...who could tell? Energy is, once again, the next big thing.......
Give me clear, positive solutions please.
Sadly, this is true. I graduated from a district who didn't follow Title I until AFTER I graduated(86'.....). If my total is $6.28, and I give them a$10.00 bill and .30 cents they can't figure the change($4.02..) in their heads. I get you. But, blame it on the Conservative Gutting of Title I, not the intent of the bill........ where it belongs.
Change Title I back to what it was meant to do...... Change the Country.
Bobster-1557895 and TraceyS, you are both suspended for a day for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.
Thank you, Sally!
Next comes people decrying unions as the devil and upper management as the job creators. This country is eating itself alive and has under a decade of prosperity left. We are living off of fumes. We cannot compete with China's slavery workers or India's low wages. The American system is setup on dreams that will never be fulfilled. As Rome, so is the U.S. C'est la vie!
Charley
Have to disagree with you on this one.
The American worker is the most productive worker anywhere in the world. We can out produce any and all other nations in the world and at a higher quality . The problem is this. Corporations are greedy period. They are only concerned with profit and keeping their share holders happy. This has led them to off shore jobs to avoid taxes, eliminate benefit payments, and avoid environmental laws and OSHA regulations. They also have set up dummy shell companies off shore, along with other off shore accounts . In order to hide profit or claim it to be tax free. Instead of paying they get mpney from the IRS after they filed their taxes. And how big was the payment by the IRS to GE last year !!!!
So who's in charge of the global regulations on sending jobs overseas? Mitt Romney? Obama? I know, let's blame Romney and the republicans even though Obama has been in charge for the past 4 years without taking responsibility.
@ Laura Miller, Post 2.2
Obama in charge without taking responsibility? Explain to me how he is supposed to make changes when he has a Party of NO stopping him? Do you always believe what you're told?
I am not a republican but thank God the "party of NO" voted NO against more of Obama's addiction to spending.
Confussed:
The "blame" may be directed at the "party of no" but you can rest assured there are Dumbocrats of uncounted number who are "thankful" they do not have to be "outed" on this issue. What "politician" would sully their political standing of "appearing as though they are looking out for the little guy" when there are those who make no bones about what they believe will facilitate economic growth. You can bet many a Dumb would cry a river if a thorough going over of "holdings" by these snakes were conducted and they were to be called to account. There would be a lot more "do as I say, not as I do" type hypocrisy evident among the LWNJ's of America. Point of fact, Obama was "poor" by comparison to other politicians when he was elected. He ain't poor no more; he built "a stash" of his own. Imagine that.
@Confussed-1578043, It's Obama's responsiblity to SET the policy and Fight for it. I Believe he has NEVER looking at the Trade deficeit or any other Defiiceit. Most people blame the Party of No as ou put it, but the facts are simple BOTH Democrats and Republicans TAKE MONEY FROM the wealthy, Just look at the Presidential Campaign figures (I believe Obama had 16+ Billion in campaign money). So Pick your Poison, Democrats or Republicans. Its Time for a change!!
I started my work career in the early 90's. Computer and programming jobs started during the Clinton years, plain and simple. Anyone who says different is clueless. Every computer magazine for years had huge stories about this. But I love how the libbies say that Bush Jr. started this. And then they also give Obama a pass. LMFAO!!
And the same right-wing morons parade through making excuses for their do-nothing, obstructive, greedy party which has WRECKED the U.S. with its destructive policies. Well done, low-information right wingers.
Great rant Tracey! LMFAO!!!
Now get off your lazy, liberal a_ss and go find a job.
Let's see if I've got this right...Venture capitalists buy up these companies...the workers are working in unsafe workplace environments while the fat gut fat faces lap up foi gras? Does it ever occur to anyone that a walk out is the best way to shove dirt in those fat gut fat faces?
A job isn't something you have to live in fear of losing. If you are doing your job, you are entitled to be paid for that job....it's a legal and binding contract the minute an employer hires you...He HAS to pay fairly for the work you do.
So the ritzy bois live large on seared foi gras while their workers endanger their lives and all to make the fat bois richer? Anyone see something wrong with this? Now, of course, the Bobster will be the first to post how it's all hate and jealosy as he already posted...Is it? Or, it is the backlash of workers getting fed up getting a kick in the ass for the jobs they do that make fat guts fat faces into billionaires?
These fat guts can't make billions with zero workers. The only reason they became billionaires is because the Texas cowboy made sure to butter their palms with Corporate Welfare they get every year in $150 billion and the tax cuts they don't need.
Get on the phones, call you state representatives and demand an end to all that corporate welfare...those are YOUR tax dollars the GOP is spending on rich bois. If these fat guts at this corporation weren't getting your tax dollars...would they be earning those salaries? You bet not.
Confussed
Obama is not the first President to have to deal with a split house and senate. True leaders get passed that and find ways to establish common ground. The major problem here is that our President isn't a leader.Unless you consider huge deficets, continued high unemployment and lack of confidence for most Americans as being the fruits of great leadership.
sarcast: What "stash" would that be? A fact, or just another in a seemingly endless stream of desperate false accusations?
Bobster, if you had more than two brain cells, you'd be dangerous. Run off and parrot your little right-wing talking points if it makes you feel better. The rest of us know you're so full of it you can't get off the couch. I'm tired of supporting people like you.
"Anyone who says different is clueless." So, bobster, any opinion differing from yours is, by definition, without merit? So you hold advanced degrees in Arrogance and Self-Absorption? Have you ever listened to, and assessed yourself with any pretense of objectivity?
I started my work career in the 1960's, and thanks to that heritage, I've managed, indeed insisted upon, keeping an open mind about all things. I don't blame 'conservatives' for all negative situations, in spite of those using "liberals" as scapegoats for all the world's ills. Stasis does not exist in this universe, or yours. Webster; "liberal" receptive to change.
Small fish! We need to address the Public Sector Union problem in the U.S.A. TheseUnions that are bankrupting Towns, Cities, States, & the Federal Government.............
Folks ignore bobster, he is what is known a a flamer. What he probably is, is a dweeb sitting in his parents basement on Christmas break. He is just trying to piss all of you off.
Oh yes, Bobster....nice comeback, you are such an IMPOTENT hack. What an f-ing worthless troll. Hates everyoine, including himself. Misearable bastard.
Bobstaer, why dont you just come out and say the you hate Obama and want himn dead, right? I mean that is really how you feel, isnt it?
The way to solve all this is simple...
1) Pull the USA out of the IMF, World Bank and World Trade Organization.
2) Slap a 50% tariff on ALL goods made outside the USA, this includes goods made by USA companies in other nations and then shipped back to the USA. Anything made outside the USA is foreign.
3) End Right to Work for Less laws.
4) Only make enough goods and materials for the USA, ONLY.
5) to encourage USA businesses from shipping their jobs overseas, offer tax breaks for bring back factories and the Good Jobs. If a company claims they are going to do this, take the break then say, ooops sorry can't do that, the CEO is jailed for Life and his factory is nationalized.
6) Any business that ships its jobs out of the USA will be hit by a 500,000% exit tax.
These measures are draconian, according to the Globalist. They are designed to bring our jobs back, and with other incentives and Tax Breaks, designed to increase pay for ALL workers across the board. Also, a windfall profits tax will be slapped on all CEO's and Board members and Investors for earning more than twice the pay of the employees of the business they run or invest in.
There are other things that can be done. maybe better sounding measures, maybe less harsh and draconian measures, But this would be a start.
And this is my opinion only
How's those, "AT-WILL" temp employment agency job contracts, in a, "Right-for-Business-to-Work State," working out for ya?
Got any pension left ...or did that end along with your 401K Retirement that was drained away by your stock portfolio losses during The Great Recession?
lee-936758
Lee, many cities, counties, and states created their own problems, not the unions. In many of the places underwater right now vs. retirement these entities offered the unions a deal. They said we can't give you a raise now but we will put this money into the employee's retirement. The problem has come home to roost now because they didn't/forgot/didn't care about funding these monies for the retirement funds. The feds are the same, any money from SS that wasn't spent on retired folks was fair game for pet projects and now they claim SS is in trouble. I'll try and find the article I read about how much the feds owe SS which will never be paid back. Meanwhile they are talking of cutting benefits to seniors who can't afford it! Hell, seniors should be getting a better return than what they receive now because all that money would have been drawing interest if it had been left alone. No, it's all the individual gov't entities that got themselves in trouble, not the workers or the public unions.
These individuals made their own bed.
They chose to get married, chose to have children, chose to purchase homes and vehicles, all dependent upon an amorphous and unpredictable job. Anyone who has been alive for the past 40 years knows you can't be in manufacturing and expect to maintain that kind of middle-class lifestyle on a low-class job. Manufacturing is not a career. Manufacturing is something you do to put yourself through school until you can get a professional job.
Shame on them.
Capt.
Kill off the blue collar workers and you whits collar guys will dry up on the vine. You fail to see let alone understand that your job was created by the sweat off the blue collar workers ass.
HOW DARE the average working man try to live the American dream! The CEO's are entitled to their outrageous pay and bonus packages. All they need to do is screw their employees, because ya know, they're just "low-class".
SHAME ON YOU.
Do any of you even know what the original meaning of a redneck was?
Wow Cap'n. Sounds like you have no clue what a dangerous and skilled job that is. Your statement is baseless and a wee bit ignorant. Sorry, but it is.
@ bob1/28 and momgam. . .
I didn't read in the article where someone held a gun to these people's heads and forced them to work in this same factory for 20 years; must have missed that.
Also, I didn't know the American dream was to do as little as possible and expect the world to dump riches at your feet. It sure has changed since I grew up.
Oh wait. They chose to do that. I guess it is their fault after all.
Shame on you, momgam, for defending sloth and willful ignorance.
@ getreal-2766091
I sure do know what a dangerous and skilled job that is. I worked those jobs in summers during college, after I got out of the Air Force and before I joined the Navy and now the Army.
The only broken bone I've ever had was when a chain-hooked snapped on a 3-ton piece of steel I was hoisting onto a rail car. Nevermind the potential respiratory problems from dealing with dangerous chemicals as an Air Force enlisted corrosion control expert, nor the propellers and jet intakes on the deck of an aircraft carrier in the Navy, or the roadside bombs, snipers, and land mines I deal with now in Afghanistan in the Army.
You got a lot of nerve saying I don't know what a dangerous job theirs is. My entire struggle from dirt poor to lower middle class has been in dealing with dangerous jobs. I choose to do them. I don't expect to get rich doing them and have not kept doing them when something better came along. Moreover, I have put off buying a home, buying new cars (I drive a 17-year old truck that I maintain myself), getting married, and having kids until I could afford such luxeries.
These guys are arrogant, ingnorant asses and they are getting exactly what they've earned. They choose to live this way.
Capt.
You are sounding more like a corporate shill than a person of reason.
Let me ask you this. Would you prefer to have a fly by night electrician wire your house or a licenced electrician ( union member ) repair the electric feeder lines to your house ?? Do you trust your car repairs to back yard mechanics or trained union tecks at your local dealerships ??
PS having read your next post I changed my mind. YOU ARE A TROLL !!!
Don't worry, Captain Jack will be the first one in line at the VA when those respiratory problems show up. Keep in mind, I believe he deserves to be compensated for his service. I am sure he believes he should be compensated as well. What a shame he has his head so far up his arse he can't see that anyone else deserves to be compensated. Oh well, I guess you can't compensate stupid!
and Captain Jack, did you read the part where the company signed a contract? Nobody was holding a gun to their heads either! Go troll Faux news. They like you over there!
Cap'n Jack, I do have a lot of nerve. It's called knowing the industry.
Your arguement is incoherent. Your opening line of going into three branches of the military, while working in a chemical factory, while going to college has me mighty impressed though. Oh, and your logic of "they chose that" ... well, so did you. So, how does that support your arguemnet? That still doesn't refute the arguement that management screwed them. They were found in breach of contract. Please stay on point.
I thought you had a bunch of student loans? You jump around so much it's kinda like you're a troll. Twenty years in the military and only a captain? You haven't learned much along the way - and hate those who have.
getreal-2766091 said, "Oh, and your logic of "they chose that" ... well, so did you. So, how does that support your arguemnet (sic)?"
I did choose. But I'm not the one arguing that I deserve more than what I've already received. If it is a breach of contract, as you say, then the employees should have a clear-cut court case. I'll just bet though, that there is a clause in the contract that says the company can do whatever it wants. Management didn't screw them. They screwed themselves when they relied on management to take care of them for the rest of their lives.
@dave-735909 You don't need to worry about me going to the VA for respiratory problems, or anything else. First, I'm not eligible for any VA benefits. Second, I've taken care of myself over the years and I don't need it. Third, there is no money for me at the VA anyway. Fourth, if I do get sick, I'll treat myself; my next step up the ascension from middle class is medicine.
Again, if you're depending on someone else, particularly a for-profit company to take care of you all of your life, you're only fooling yourself. It is willful ignorance and arrogance of the worst kind. Don't pity these fools. They chose to gamble with their lives by putting them in someone else's hands; they lost. Next case.
@ Cheetah
Yes, that's right. Still got student loans. So what? I'm on track to have them paid off by April 2014.
Yep, 4 years enlisted, 5 years as an officer in the Navy, 5 years as an officer in the Army (and counting), plus seven years of IRR; 21 years actually.
What is it you expected me to learn in my 20 years of military service that I haven't learned? Be specific.
How exactly have I jumped around?
You are pumping out a bunch of accusations, but not offering any evidence to back them up. Sounds like YOU are the troll.
Capt
I feel it is safe to assume that your ascension to medicine means you are looking to become a SHAY-MAN ( which doctor ). As far as VA benefits go you are most certainly a troll. All retired military personnel retain their military ID cards and are eligible for medical care under TRI-CARE. Now go back under your bridge and play with your tinker-toys. Besides your military service numbers do not add up.
@Bob128 I've seen some union people not worth there weight as plumbers, electricians or other trades. I am NOT anti-union, just anti union stupidy and greed from union management which does happen. Some of the complaints I have with unions are the protect seniority even if that person is a lazy a$$ s.o.b. and doesnt work very hard. But I do thank the unions for all that has been acomplished over the last 100 years for everyone.
Captain Jack, I have a feeling your eyes are brown! LOL! What I hear is you have been sucking at the public trough for 21 years. Couldn't cut it in one branch of the service, so you jumped to another. More likely, you've just been playing soldier in the courtyard when they let you out to get a little sunshine. Anyway, you are just too funny!
Sigh. You are just trolling Cap'n Jack. I just read you're reply to Cheetah and myself. You cherry pick on sentence out of my reply (and just to critique my spelling error) I guess following the actual premise of the article is too much to ask for. Got it. Have a Happy New Year.
Capt Jack, you are so full of shlt a six-year-old could see through it. Let me guess...you live in Mom's basement and spend your days on Drudge, am I right?
Being a licensed electrician does not mean you are a union electrician, Not sure where you live but here in NJ you need an electricians license to be an electrical contractor, Both Union and non union shop electrical contractors have licenses but not all employees of those shops are licensed electricians. Being in a union does not somehow magically change a person . I do a lot of my own vehicle repairs and what I can not do I have done at a service center, Sometimes I will use my local dealership and sometimes I will use my local service repair shop, I have had equally satisfying results from both however the cost of the repair at the dealership was usually quite a bit more expensive.
I was a union member in the 1970's, I was a member of the Bricklayers Union and worked out of Locals 64 (residential work) 1 and 33(commercial work) The pay was great but I got tired of traveliing so I went out on my own, I was a bricklayer before I joined the union and I was a bricklayer during the time I was in the Union and I am still a bricklayer, The union did not make me magically any better and to be honest some of the work I have seen by union bricklayers was pathetic, Being in a union does not make you qualified at what you do, learning the trade does, It also helps if you have some common sense. I have been self employed since I left the union and none of my work has ever fallen down or been questioned by any building inspector.
@Jack.
Jack if you have no healthcare and get hit by a buss on the way to work tomorrow. Are you a looser who gambled and lost? Or did something bad happen that you couldn't deal with? I get that you don't care what happens to anyone and that everyone deserves exactly what they get in your opinion. That's fine. Personally I believe in people helping each other and taking care of each other. I believe in a country and economy that works for everyone not man eat's man and devil take the hindmost.
Lost
I agree with your posting 100% . Part of my posting you refer to. Was to blow some smoke up Capt. Jacks butt. Flush out the troll in him.
Every where I have lived the story is the same. There is good and bad in all fields union or non. Trick is to find the good ones and avoid the bad.
bob
captainjack: Have you ever noticed the term "production" attached to those you hold in such low esteem. If you don't grow crops, heal the sick, teach the children, build the schools and hospitals, you are nothing but overhead. Moneychangers, legends in their own minds, and unaffordable baggage to the rest of us.
cap jack: You seem to have an encyclopedic understanding of the dynamics of the private sector - especially considering you've spent so little time being a member of the private sector work force.
Part of the problem is with people like you Capt is that you just don't get it and never will. "it" being that all people are not created equal in intelligence and motivation. Most people just want a decent job and be able to provide themselves food, clothing, medical care and shelter to provide for their families.They will not start their own business, nor continually educate themselves nor adapt to changing conditions because they simply aren't able to. I can think of no man that has ever existed that can say he did it "all" by himself. Each of us owes our lives to others in so many different ways. There are those who give of themselves and create jobs and opportunities for others who are in turn rightly recognized as helping this "creator" person achieve their goals and are appreciated as contributing to those goals. However, some persons think they have the right to abuse the goodness of others for their own personal gain. So they do it and think it's ok! I'm here to tell you it's not ok. And unless you are truly a greedy, selfish, non-caring person you also know it's not ok. I just wish we could all see the true inner soul of one another...if we could then all you "quit whining, start your own business if you don't like it" types would never get anywhere because you wouldn't be able find anyone to work for you. Perhaps you should all work for each other. That would be an interesting scenario....
@ jack
i am a retired member of the military captain and i call your story as crap. you might want to speak the truth and stop the lies.
"Yes, that's right. Still got student loans. So what?"
Work on that one for a while - why not use tuition assistance? You would get out, work a factory job, then ROTC your way to a commission and never seek forgiveness?
You're an O-3 over fourteen years? Ten commissioned? You're one dumb bunny.
Their wages have come back to where they should have been in the first place. A private first class in Iraq who puts his "LIFE" on the line 24/7 makes a little over $2000 plus allowances.
These fools were making $100,000 for a simple manufacturing job. No it's not complex. I know I worked as a common assembler or operator and it doesn't take a genius to follow the Standard Operating Procedures. No you don't need a college education. No you don't even need a high school education. You put Peg A into Peg B for eight, 10 hours a day. When I worked at General Motors we had uneducated buffoons working the line making top union wage who couldn't even read. The foremen had to mark their time cards with different colored markers so they knew which one was theirs.
No, but if you are risking your life working with dangerous materials you deserve compensation.
Im sorry crasher, you're wrong about the similarity between assembly and chemical manufacturing. They are highly toxic and extremely volatile. I think the main premise that bothers me is how the upper management were able to return their wage while cutting people who had been there for 30+ years. I know that seeing someone rewarded for manipulation by the millions. I don't understand why you wouldn't take note of the people who never have to touch the dangerous stuff, 70+ hours per week 24/7 ... giving themselves huge raises and inflated bonuses? wow.
There are a LOT of people who WISH they made $19+/hour so be grateful for what you have. That said, it is common for new management to cut cost. Unfortunately, the first step is always lowering workers wages. I'm sure the workers are thrilled management had a good time paying Elton John $1M for a nights work since they actually paid for it. That is the most disgusting part of the story. Did they even invite the workers? Of course not.
This is the unfortunate result of the Ayn Rand philosophy of greed is good, combined with the forced decline of unions. The next step will be to get rid of all safety measures and eliminate worker's compensation for on-the-job injuries. Republicans are destroying this country and what it stands for.
It could've been worse. Romney might've won the election...
I am ashamed to see the elitists here who chime in and defend this sort of abuse; I consider them fair targets for my scorn, and knowing what I know about such narcissists and how they get angry at those who would hold them accountable, I welcome the opportunity to serve up fresh killed intellectual roadkill.
And somebody needs to tell Elton John to quit whoring himself out at such affairs. I recall he played at Rush Humbaugh's umpteenth wedding as well...
you get the douche prize for first a hole to bring politics into it.
SL Cabbie, they aren't elitists defending these policies. They are elitists' arse-lickers who are too dim to understand that it's not illegal to think for themselves. They've been issued their orders, and they march to them. It never occurs to them to do anything else.
glock...oh come off it...Politics? You mean like the billionaires who pay millions a month to lobbyists to reduce their taxes? You must mean like the billionaires who sidle up and schmooze the politicians who reduce their taxes while they use our SS, Medicare and Medicaid payroll deductions to help the rich?
Some men in this country aren't men...they are shills of the least conscionable human beings on the planet.
Seeing how this comment was "collapsed by the community," I rest my case about narcissists being particularly angry with those who would hold them accountable.
BTW, on a second reading, I see these events took place in 2008, so trying to blame them on President Obama is a non-starter.
It is bizarr and beyond comprehension that the same middle class people (I assume they are) who are commenting here and suggest that these workers should put up, shut up and be happy are the first to scream bloody murder if the billionaires are asked to pay just a little more in taxes - "because they earned their wealth"; billionaires who have billions leftover to pay for yachts and mansions. Just because there are others that are exploited more we should not be happy that we are only being screwed a little. Remember, every time we take buying power away from the middle class, the entire local economy will suffer because these people have less money to spend on services and other things.
SDDaisie, never underestimate how low the IQs of the right-wing can sink.
Tracey...So right. When the right wingers wallow in slime most of their loser lives, all they know is more slime. It's a right of passage into an adulthood of wealth entitlement they hope will become limitless.
Be affraid of us right wingers. There are less and less of us. And like a cornered animal. We are dangerous. On that note. Merry Christmas to all you anti God left wingers.
So you take over my company, cut my wages, send most of my work overseas, and then ship it back to the USA and sell at the "competitive going rate" that is usually higher than when you purchased my company! Then you blame me for complaining and expect US citizens to buy product and higher price!?
If it were your company then you could do with it what you want but since it belongs to someone else and you are just an employee then yes the owner can do that, You have the option of starting your own company if you want but that takes a willingness to take the chance that you may become a successful business or you may fail and lose your investment.
Cooperate greed at the expense of the floor worker. Disgusting, yet becoming more common. If they want to have cut worker pay then they need to cut management pay and get rid of bonuses entirely.
Captain Jack, You sir are an ass. This country became the greatest country in the world because of it's manufacturing and the careers that sector provided.
This country became the greatest country in the world because people were not afraid to go out and take a chance, they were not afraid to work hard and build with their own hands, They were not afraid of risking everything they had including their lives, This country was built by pioneers and not some guy working in a union shop.
Lost: How long, exactly, have you been lost? If you own a company, and you have 6 employees, you have 14 hands working for the good of the company. 2 of those are yours, 12 are not. This isn't too deep, is it?
all i can say about this is welcome to the real world. i am in a skilled trade. and i still dont make what i made in 2004 with $6 plus in raises. management just wants you to work 6 days a week a week for nothing extra. so they can sit on their fat asses and collect the hundreds of thousands each of us make for them a year.
If you have learned that skilled trade then why don't you start your own business?
because in todays economy its not worth the effort. byu the time im done paying taxes, insurances, utilities. there would nothing left. there is also a lot of competion.
The vast majority of new business fail. Not everyone has the financial mussle to absorb that. Starting a business is gambling with your families life. I'm not going to roll the dice on my wife and kid untill I've got enough money to survive failure.
This is an example of why Romney was one hundred percent wrong -- corporations are NOT people, my friend. Corporations are completely amoral and driven by nothing other than the bottom line. They also can "live" for eternity (at least theoretically). Two things are abundantly clear. Corporations need to be heavily regulated in ways that private individuals are not. And, the Supreme Court was absolutely wrong when it applied the Bill of Rights to corporations as if they were people. The rise of corporations is what necessitated the strengthening of unions, since brute force is all that corporations notice or respect.
It amazes me how many of you have a slave mentality. The current business model of the 1% is unsustainable. It will lead to revolution.
I feel so sorry for the Gulf Coast & East Coast Longshoremen, who cannot survive on $50.00 hr. wages and now may strike.
Top Heavy Inc.
Management, like wolves circling their next victim. The Goose that laid golden eggs. This article is like a cry for help; Save our American jobs!!
Oh and Leon Black, he's a real Saint.
America, have fun with this extra credit activity. Print out Saint Leon's picture and have fun scribbling.
Oh and if anybody in upper management is looking for a job, sounds like we have a potential opening in NY at SOS Inc.
all i make is 9.00 an hour at amway.... any of you guys out there wanna switch jobs
No offense Yooper, but do something to better yourself so you can earn more money. I am not saying it is easy, but obviously these people have skills you don't.
These workers should be thankful they weren't bought out by Mitt Romney's firm. They'd now be out of their jobs instead of moving from overpaid to normal wages. The main lesson here is that if you do find yourself overpaid, you shouldn't get too used to it and live above your true means.
Been there, done that. Downsized 4 times, 2 union jobs 2 not. Its the American standard and has been happening in this country for decades. What's the big deal. Manufacturing has been destroyed in this country and now they are beginning to export the Service jobs out of this country.
Wells Fagro announced it already begun shipping its jobs to India. Other big banks will follow. Its been reported that Insurance companies are planning to ship their customer services and computer operations overseas. Wait till the health insurance companies follow with their jobs.
That free health care Obama shoved down our throats isn't going to be so free. Someone has to pay for it and isn't going to be the rich.
Looks like the Mitt Romney solution! Reward the few at the expense of the many. At least their guns were not taken away. The article said they see deer on the way to work. Shot a couple and supplement your protein intake.
If your in the military for the pay check! Your on the wrong JOB.
Apollo Global Management(APO_), the private equity giant, gives Wall Street a bad name.
Apollo has a track record of buying companies, loading them up with millions in debt and then dumping them on the public. Bankers, though, may be getting tired of being Apollo's enablers as the offerings are beginning to get pulled. Who wants to jeopardize customer performance to keep Apollo happy?
What wrong with this country is people like them who make a fast buck of of the places they buy then dump them on the government to bail them out or the tax payer. O (Apollo Global Management) use to be Apollo Advisers, was founded in 1990, on the heels of the collapse of Drexel Burnham Lambert in February 1990. who was forced into bankruptcy in February 1990 by its involvement in illegal activities in the junk bond market. And they are still at it. any body remember the bail out.
jeff immelt identified these workers as a bunch of stiffs and bailed, where they should be grateful, that they were kept alive.
In typical union fashion, they are a conglomeration whiny F's!!!!
Eliminate all public unions and make the remaining 28 states "Right to Work!!!
Gary: If that's your reasoning ability, we can be glad no one puts you in charge of anything more important than the TV remote.
yeah, and the main outcome of all this is the reason it's so cheap, aside from labor cost, to make these products overseas is they have absolutely no concern about the chemical pollution. Remember Bhopal? Now places like that are the norm. Right to work translates into right to breathe toxins. You already are, probably. Look up my old hometown: " acereport pottstown landfill " waste management and veolia (WM spinoff) are building more of those.
This my friends is the "New World Order". A shinning example of what the future will bring to us. Along with this bull@!$%# is the Republicans wanting states to adopt the "Right to work Law". They say it will bring more companies to there states and create more jobs. more jobs like this one we need, but more companies like this one we do not need, they are takeover artist just like in the movie "OPM" and people mean nothing to them only money. Also the "Right to Work Law" by definition is the right to work for less money, no benefits, no seniority, no retirement, no insurance, and the list goes on and on and on.
Sophomore drop outs will have to get an education one way or another in today's world!!!
you know once i talked to a guy here who was the head of space shots for nasa in clear lake, and he told me the main reason we're going to mars is to preserve humanity off-planet because the govt. has already determined that the earth is environmentally doomed.
people like you who speak as if you're somehow above the law or reality, are going to get a big old education too. especially once that tumor in your lungs from all the crap we've already been breathing from the black cloud over china really sets in. that's the cost of the deregulation ever since reagan. we learned from a century of eco-damage to create the epa, and we turned our back and let a bunch of idiots race to the lowest denominator.
One of the biggest reasons these companies can get away with this kind of reprehensible behavior towards their workers is the lack of a fear that someone with a few bucks (and a less rapacious compensation desire) can come in and scoop them away and start a competing company that treats the employees better and still makes good money. Competition is depressed in the US economy by the overwhelming and myriad regulations at the federal, state and local levels (including complex tax laws), and workers and would be entrepreneurs are suffering for it (to the benefit of the Leon Blacks of the world). The answer isn't MORE regulation of businesses - the answer is to free the American economy from too much regulation, to compete on the basis of who has the best ideas and treats their employees the best - not who has the most money and the best access to high powered lawyers and consultants.
Robert you are wrong......regulation keeps us from collapse of the economy.....look at what lack of regulation of the banking industry has done to the global economy.
I have to agree to a large extent. We do need regulations to protect the environment and worker rights, but too often the laws get heavily enforced against small business owners while Corporations and Wall Street firms get a free hand when they break the law and break contracts. There is no question that if a small business owner got too greedy and decided to arbitrarily cut its employees pay, another business would come in and swoop up the disgruntled employees and disgruntled customers. That's not to say that factory workers should necessarily make $100K, but without contracts and rule of law in money matters, you can't have a productive economy.
The only problem with the American dream, that President Obama promises to restore, is that the U.S. has already lived the post-WWII national dream of having a virtually monopoly on global production. The hard work that armed the Allies, rebuilt the world, and gave America the best standard living is a historic reality.