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Subscribe to RSSA secretive memo from the Justice Department, provided to NBC News, provides new information about the legal reasoning behind one of the Obama administration's controversial policies. Now, John Brennan, Obama's nominee for CIA director, is expected to face tough questions about drone strikes on Thursday when he appears before the Senate Intelligence Committee. NBC's Michael Isikoff reports.
A confidential Justice Department memo concludes that the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be “senior operational leaders” of al-Qaida or “an associated force” -- even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S.
The 16-page memo, a copy of which was obtained by NBC News, provides new details about the legal reasoning behind one of the Obama administration’s most secretive and controversial polices: its dramatically increased use of drone strikes against al-Qaida suspects abroad, including those aimed at American citizens, such as the September 2011 strike in Yemen that killed alleged al-Qaida operatives Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Khan. Both were U.S. citizens who had never been indicted by the U.S. government nor charged with any crimes.
The secrecy surrounding such strikes is fast emerging as a central issue in this week’s hearing of White House counterterrorism adviser John Brennan, a key architect of the drone campaign, to be CIA director. Brennan was the first administration official to publicly acknowledge drone strikes in a speech last year, calling them “consistent with the inherent right of self-defense.” In a separate talk at the Northwestern University Law School in March, Attorney General Eric Holder specifically endorsed the constitutionality of targeted killings of Americans, saying they could be justified if government officials determine the target poses “an imminent threat of violent attack.”
But the confidential Justice Department “white paper” introduces a more expansive definition of self-defense or imminent attack than described by Brennan or Holder in their public speeches. It refers, for example, to what it calls a “broader concept of imminence” than actual intelligence about any ongoing plot against the U.S. homeland.
Michael Isikoff, national investigative correspondent for NBC News, talks with Rachel Maddow about a newly obtained, confidential Department of Justice white paper that hints at the details of a secret White House memo that explains the legal justifications for targeted drone strikes that kill Americans without trial in the name of national security.
“The condition that an operational leader present an ‘imminent’ threat of violent attack against the United States does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future,” the memo states.
Read the entire 'white paper' on drone strikes on Americans
Instead, it says, an “informed, high-level” official of the U.S. government may determine that the targeted American has been “recently” involved in “activities” posing a threat of a violent attack and “there is no evidence suggesting that he has renounced or abandoned such activities.” The memo does not define “recently” or “activities.”
As in Holder’s speech, the confidential memo lays out a three-part test that would make targeted killings of American lawful: In addition to the suspect being an imminent threat, capture of the target must be “infeasible, and the strike must be conducted according to “law of war principles.” But the memo elaborates on some of these factors in ways that go beyond what the attorney general said publicly. For example, it states that U.S. officials may consider whether an attempted capture of a suspect would pose an “undue risk” to U.S. personnel involved in such an operation. If so, U.S. officials could determine that the capture operation of the targeted American would not be feasible, making it lawful for the U.S. government to order a killing instead, the memo concludes.
The undated memo is entitled “Lawfulness of a Lethal Operation Directed Against a U.S. Citizen who is a Senior Operational Leader of Al Qa’ida or An Associated Force.” It was provided to members of the Senate Intelligence and Judiciary committees in June by administration officials on the condition that it be kept confidential and not discussed publicly.
Although not an official legal memo, the white paper was represented by administration officials as a policy document that closely mirrors the arguments of classified memos on targeted killings by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, which provides authoritative legal advice to the president and all executive branch agencies. The administration has refused to turn over to Congress or release those memos publicly -- or even publicly confirm their existence. A source with access to the white paper, which is not classified, provided a copy to NBC News.
“This is a chilling document,” said Jameel Jaffer, deputy legal director of the ACLU, which is suing to obtain administration memos about the targeted killing of Americans. “Basically, it argues that the government has the right to carry out the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen. … It recognizes some limits on the authority it sets out, but the limits are elastic and vaguely defined, and it’s easy to see how they could be manipulated.”
In particular, Jaffer said, the memo “redefines the word imminence in a way that deprives the word of its ordinary meaning.”
Khaled Abdullah / Reuters
Tribesmen this week examine the rubble of a building in southeastern Yemen where American teenager Abdulrahmen al-Awlaki and six suspected al-Qaida militants were killed in a U.S. drone strike on Oct. 14, 2011. Al-Awlaki, 16, was the son of Anwar al-Awlaki, who died in a similar strike two weeks earlier.
A Justice Department spokeswoman declined to comment on the white paper. The spokeswoman, Tracy Schmaler, instead pointed to public speeches by what she called a “parade” of administration officials, including Brennan, Holder, former State Department Legal Adviser Harold Koh and former Defense Department General Counsel Jeh Johnson that she said outlined the “legal framework” for such operations.
Pressure for turning over the Justice Department memos on targeted killings of Americans appears to be building on Capitol Hill amid signs that Brennan will be grilled on the subject at his confirmation hearing before the Senate Intelligence Committee on Thursday.
On Monday, a bipartisan group of 11 senators -- led by Democrat Ron Wyden of Oregon — wrote a letter to President Barack Obama asking him to release all Justice Department memos on the subject. While accepting that “there will clearly be circumstances in which the president has the authority to use lethal force” against Americans who take up arms against the country, it said, “It is vitally important ... for Congress and the American public to have a full understanding of how the executive branch interprets the limits and boundaries of this authority.”
Anticipating domestic boom, colleges rev up drone piloting programs
The completeness of the administration’s public accounts of its legal arguments was also sharply criticized last month by U.S. Judge Colleen McMahon in response to a lawsuit brought by the New York Times and the ACLU seeking access to the Justice Department memos on drone strikes targeting Americans under the Freedom of Information Act. McMahon, describing herself as being caught in a “veritable Catch-22,” said she was unable to order the release of the documents given “the thicket of laws and precedents that effectively allow the executive branch of our government to proclaim as perfectly lawful certain actions that seem on their face incompatible with our Constitution and laws while keeping the reasons for the conclusion a secret.”
In her ruling, McMahon noted that administration officials “had engaged in public discussion of the legality of targeted killing, even of citizens.” But, she wrote, they have done so “in cryptic and imprecise ways, generally without citing … any statute or court decision that justifies its conclusions.”
In one passage in Holder’s speech at Northwestern in March, he alluded – without spelling out—that there might be circumstances where the president might order attacks against American citizens without specific knowledge of when or where an attack against the U.S. might take place.
“The Constitution does not require the president to delay action until some theoretical end-stage of planning, when the precise time, place and manner of an attack become clear,” he said.
But his speech did not contain the additional language in the white paper suggesting that no active intelligence about a specific attack is needed to justify a targeted strike. Similarly, Holder said in his speech that targeted killings of Americans can be justified if “capture is not feasible.” But he did not include language in the white paper saying that an operation might not be feasible “if it could not be physically effectuated during the relevant window of opportunity or if the relevant country (where the target is located) were to decline to consent to a capture operation.” The speech also made no reference to the risk that might be posed to U.S. forces seeking to capture a target, as was mentioned in the white paper.
The white paper also includes a more extensive discussion of why targeted strikes against Americans does not violate constitutional protections afforded American citizens as well as a U.S. law that criminalizes the killing of U.S. nationals overseas.
It also discusses why such targeted killings would not be a war crime or violate a U.S. executive order banning assassinations.
“A lawful killing in self-defense is not an assassination,” the white paper reads. “In the Department’s view, a lethal operation conducted against a U.S. citizen whose conduct poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the United States would be a legitimate act of national self-defense that would not violate the assassination ban. Similarly, the use of lethal force, consistent with the laws of war, against an individual who is a legitimate military target would be lawful and would not violate the assassination ban.”
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Oh my goodness...I have no words...
Does this surprise you! Absolute power corrupts...all people need to fear their governments. Why do you think our founders put the right to bear arms in the Constitution. We have elevated the presidency to king like status...we forget he is just an ordinary citizen like the rest of us. I fear for our children and grandchildren. They may have to take up arms to finally free us as we become a rich vs poor nation.
A confidential Justice Department memo concludes that the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be “senior operational leaders” of al-Qaida or “an associated force” -- even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S.
WHA...
Would LOVE to see the OTHER confidential DOJ memos too!!!
Sounds like someone just got too big for their britches!!
Thats not thunder....its our forefathers rolling over in their graves!!
Start down in Florida on a trial basis, most of your targets hang there...........
Wow.............speechless! THIS is the US????????
When are we going to see our first drone attact on US soil?
Lets see....I remember a movie called the Terminator...Hmmm...gee...drones...flying killing robots...
Your government is already turning against you. And this is who you are trusting with retirement and healthcare.
Huh...sounds like they are setting up to make us all slaves. It's coming.
We all know they won't stop there....Pretty soon, they'll be flying all over America killing anyone that opposes the govt.
I am pretty conservative and I am deeply concerned. We have rules in place to eliminate someone from 'making a judgement call' or doing a 'personal interpretation' of rule of law. We learned a little too much from our enemies over the years. Enough to become them??? :( I hope we drop the party politics on this one and stand together - this is really horrible.
FedupwithFed..(#1.2)..."Would LOVE to see the OTHER confidential DOJ memos too!!!"
Does that memo include "assassinating" The Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History....Is he too potentially dangerous for this Administration to leave alive ???.....No Evidence Necessary....just a hunch ???
Is the Shooter an NSA Operative ....using the cover of a returning Vet with PTSD...Will the Feds get him sent to a Treatment Center and declare him cured in a year or two ???
This is several degrees from killing true American citizens, as these are enemies of Americans but who happen to still hold US citizenship.
Same thing happened in WW2. Many German-American families heeded the call to 'return to the fatherland' and fought with the Germans against Americans and the rest of the allies. We killed them just as dead. US citizenship does not grant you blanket immunity. Actions count.
If this ever even so much as approaches attacking US Citizens who have NOT aligned themselves with known enemies, whether in the US or not, there will be a nation to answer to.
This should frighten EVERY American citizen.
Yep. Exactly right. Not that thinking about what you said would deter our government, however. So what will they do when they bomb the wrong house - the home of an average Joe - when his wife and kids are in it while he's at work? Say, "ooooops, sorry there, bud- wrong address." Like THAT'LL fly and make everything better with this man and the American Public.
Put things together
2nd Amendment concerns
Registration of guns
Background checks and records on gun sales
Legal assassination by drones
Home security chief in charge of Borders
Medical records filed with Government
IRS increase in personnel
Sounds a little like 1938 Europe
I tell you what freightens me some jerk leaving this country to train up overseas to take out Americans and returns to USA pretending he is a good neighbor and blowing up a subway train under the Hudson River while I am on it.
If an American goes overseas to prepare to hurt me and my family I say kill them over there where they stand. How many WTC Towers do you folks have to see fall before you throw away that crying towel. If you think this is so tough read what President Lincoln did to citizens in this country during war.
Hey Mike....I thought about that too.......you just dont walk up on the top sniper in the US and shoot him point blank!!
Lessee, the American government, in the form of FBI agents just killed a decorated Vietnam war veteran in Alabama this afternoon, and I think I can safely predict there will be no complaints...
What, there's a difference? I don't think so, and I think the case can be made for not disclosing some of this in the interest of national securiy... The issue is one of trust; the Cheney Adminstration repeatedly breached that trust, despite the howls from the rwnj's; this Administration has yet to be have shown to have done so...
The Treaty of Versailles that ended WWI took gun ownership away form the Germans. The Nazi's made it legal again except for Jews-your scenario does not sound like 1938 at all.
It sounds horrible on paper, but without such "legal interpretations," the US could not have defended itself against the Confederates during the American Civil War. From the North's point of view, the Confederates were still citizens, as it did not recognize the sovereignty of the south. How then could a northern officer launch a surprise attack against a southern stronghold? Firing a cannon toward Atlanta or Charleston with the intent to kill citizens would have been impossible.
It's not so different today if an American citizen takes up arms in support of an organization with the avowed intent to kill any and all Americans they can find. We're not talking about political assassinations here. In a way, Al Qaeda operates like a nation with no discernible borders. I still don't support the notion that we're fighting a "war," because there is no way to define a win. What it really comes down to is ongoing police action requiring military technology. It will likely never come to an end, because it can't. But that's one more reason you can't really call it a "war."
That shoulld open your eyes totally crazy
IXLR8
Start down in Florida on a trial basis-----------
Here I was thinking Texas.
Just watched Rachel Maddow's report on the legal framework used to justify drone strikes. I'm amazed that the word "imminent" here, has nothing to do with the definition of the word imminent. Sounds like Orwellian double-speak to me. Then there's the justified defense of scenarios where "undue harm" to US personnel may occur, so killing by drones is permissible. Nobody wants to put our people in undue harm, and I'm sure there are places (like desert camps or villages in Afghanistan, Yemen, North Africa, or Pakistan, where there's no viable way to intercede. Nonetheless, it seems to me that this standard is far too broad and ambiguous. If we're going to create credible legal principles and justifications for killing people with drone strikes, I think we should require clearer, stricter and more honestly testable standards, with real accountability for the results of the actions taken in our name. The government...our government, needs to be checked and balanced on the use of this new weapon system, lest it be soon turned on us without our having any practical legal recourse to it's deadly application.
This is illegal. Why in the world do we have a judicial system? How can the government murder an American citizen without due process of prosecution. Without the proof of evidence before a judge and jury.
IMPEACH OBAMA. THIS IS ANTI AMERICAN!!
if we have conclusive evidence that an American citizen is part of Al Queda, then I'm AOK with him catching a Hellfire even if there is no evidence that he is planning something new... this is a war against a sepcific enemy, war doesn't change even if they don't have a country...
That being said, HOW we come to the decision a US Citizen is an actual enemy is very very important...
since 9/11 the rights to / against:
- unreasonable search and seizure
- fine without jury decision
- free speech,
- habeas corpus
- bear arms
- trial by jury
are all under attack.... when they get us to give up our rights, they win... end of story... we lose our freedoms when they accomplish that
I'm reminded of what King George said to John Adams right after the revolution...
'I hope that the United States does not suffer unduly for it's want of a Monarchy'
Bush and Obama have done much to continue to erode our rights
..
I think when you leave the country, and join a terrorist group that kills Americans, you have defacto relinquished your citizenship and the rights it affords you. I'm glad both of them are dead. Thank you to all involved.
Time to exercise that Second Amendment.
You know what? I'm a pretty peaceable person. I respect the Constitution and law and order. But we're talking about people who have joined and are even leading the same terrorists who killed more than 3,000 people on 9/11! What... you want to walk right into an Al Qaida camp and read them their rights?! They'd probably start making sure they had at least one American on all their operations, then the US would be helpless to defend against them in case we violated some traitor's rights. In everyone's zeal to accuse President Obama of everything from being a dictator to causing acid rain I think this is an over reaction.
So if you're on vacation and some intelligence officer makes a mistake and determines you are a terrorist, you have no qualms about the US government sending a drone strike to kill to take you out. And if you think it can't happen just think about the number of people that have shown up on the no fly list for apparently no reason. In some cases they are kids.
Ron:
Pipe down choir boy! Put the drama Queen dress up and calm the @!$%# down... No body is a king, no body wants to take your little six shooter away.
Times such as these require some nuanced positions, some our Righteous Founders could never have imagined... Flying aeroplanes in to 100 story buildings and such.
Re read the Constitution with a smaller microscope, direct your attention to the branches of government, the safeguards installed to protect us from tyrants, and take a shot of Cuervo if you must, but jeez man get a grip!
Lord, here we go with the Obama bull@!$%#. Absolute power was given by Bush/Cheney, it's called the "Patriot Act/Homeland Security," which was initiated under Bush with his bull@!$%# war on terrorism.
That's not the first Vietnam Veteran to be killed by the FBI/CIA/DEA, your local sheriff, or police department, so quit the scare tactics trying to say all of this is just happening now.
I've got to go, Limbaugh and Hannity have you people paranoid, I can't stay here and listen/read this ignorance that drones are Obama's fault.
Now another idiot above, the sniper was killed by a US government agent because the US government is afraid of a decorated sniper? Limbaugh has your nose WIDE open, and he's all up your dumb ass.
IXLR8 & Imwhitewolf:
You would wish drone strikes on fellow Americans in Florida and Texas. Yeah, you're really the "Tolerant" and "Enlightened". Too bad everybody can't be as wise and kind as you. What's worse is that you can't have what you wish for others.
What irony. The first to go, given the qualifications of traitor and terrorist, would be the men who crafted this "memo" and the President.
Yeah I guess you are right. And the cool thing is you don't even get a public trial. The government can now just claim you're a terrorist. Say you're a government whistle blower. It makes it so much easier for them to just take you out with no accountability. Remember that Canadian guy they made the movie about that they just grabbed at the airport and then sent to Egypt and tortured until they figured out they had the wrong guy? Pretty funny, ha ha ha ha. I mean he was originally from Jordan so he must have been up to no good even if he didn't do what they thought he did. Sure his wife was pissed off an all but she had it coming for marrying a rag head.
The people to whom this memo refers are enemy combatants. They've stood to be counted with those who would destroy the U.S.A. If you're OK with your neighbor packing up & shipping to the M.E. to train in techniques that could be used against us or our troops with no reprisals whatsoever, you're foolish. These people are literally gunning for us. And "due process"? See, here's the problem with that, as it pertains to this situation. If you want to get them to trial, we'd have to send in spec. ops. troops to do the job. Now, while I have no question in my mind about their ability to carry out such missions, the law of averages dictates that the more times you expose these troops to high-risk missions like grabbing somebody, the more and more likely it will be that something catastrophic happens and we lose a bunch of good people.
No, it's not an ideal situation, but these people made their choice. If they wish to align themselves with terrorist organizations with the intent of harming our country or our troops, then I'll shed not one tear for them if a Hellfire blows them into itty-bitty pieces.
Couple this news with the fact that Obama wanted to create a civilian force equal in funding and arms to the military: surprise, the Homeland security is stockpiling weapons and bullets, and we aren't far from becoming the socialist police state we spent the 70s and 80s fighting to eliminate. Will we hear "Hail Obama" in our future?
definitely side with ACLU on this vague defiinition. A clearer definition need to be sited by the justice dept, otherwise it is a slippery slope that this sits on. It will not take much to pull the trigger... (for some trigger happy leader looking for an excuse).
Everyone has the "inherent right of self-defense", including those who challenge the corrupt and harmful status quo and are therefore labeled "enemies".
Americans are well known for their innovation. How long will it be before we begin to see the technology and means for citizens to be able to defend themselves by disabling the drones?
Confussed-1578043
What makes you think it hasn't happened already?
TiddM43
Maybe the mark of the beast...?
My guess is as soon as some kid in high school points at a fellow citizen and screams:
"She's a Witch! She looked at me cross-eyed and the next day our barn burned down - Kill her!!"
I thought we'd evolved beyond all that. You know, had that Constitution and everything, to protect the rights of citizens and 'stuff' - I guess not.
Has anyone heard of NDAA? Any citizen may be abducted and held indefintly, without warrant or court order. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
This sounds like some kind of cross between George Orwell and The Simpsons.
With the current administration you "are just bumps in the road" and "don't really matter now anyways".
So if we can't catch American citizens that are members of al-Qaida and we can't kill them either I don't think al-Qaida would take advantage of that and recruit and promote American terrorists because we hamstrung ourselves. Will they? (sarcasm)There is a almost unlimited supply of idiots for them to recruit.
Woodrow Wilson
Robert Jackson (February 13, 1892 – October 9, 1954) was United States Attorney General (1940–1941) and an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court (1941–1954). He was also the chief United States prosecutor at the Nuremberg Trials.
Wow, another step in the direction of becoming a socialistic regime
@moshuluu
You need to look up the meaning of scare tactics, silly... I understand for paranoid sorts entering unknown areas of thought is terrifying, but hey, get yourself some Depends if need be... No one will be the wiser...
And that howler about the Rash Humbaugh® is even sillier; besides no higher education (I've got a BA), he's headed to the rehab again, and I could see myself taking up a collection to be part of the treatment team--with some authentic "cowboys" I know--that would leave him speaking in soprano for a year or so. Right now the only ass he's up is his own...
AND THE MINDLESS LIBERALS/PROGRESSIVES WANT US TO SURRENDER MORE OF OUR WEAPONS!!!!!
This is the result of decades of Progressive intrusion into our Constitution, justice system and schools. The relentless intrusions into our Freedoms and Liberties for the sake of some mythical safety is now being exposed for the Despotism it truly is.
It's a national embarrassment that we have ignored our most important responsibility, our government.
I recommend you all read this a hundred times or more until you absolutely understand what it means. Read it to your children so they understand. Our Rights are being intruded on in ways many don't even understand, yet.
Hopefully by the time they do it's not too late.
Hopefully.
Obama didn't initiate any of this, so I'll say, thanks Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/Rice, Patriot Act, Homeland Security......"Mission Accomplished!"
@
Ron-975213
The Founding Fathers gave us the 2nd Amendment Rights with an attached Responsibility, and that was to use our Right to bear arms for the Common Defense (militia), which the citizens chose to ignore. Those opposing the ratification of the new Constitution feared Standing Armies and even Selective Militias and THAT is why the 2nd Amendment came to be. While there is indeed an individual Right defined there the primary purpose was a State's Right issue, where people feared a Federal Government using the Military to overpower the States. Even to the point where a Federal Law was passed in 1792 MANDATING that every eligible male between 18 and 45 MUST own AND REGISTER an appropriate and approved firearm, and to report as directed for training at least twice a year. However it is normal and common among humans (especially those who scream loudest) to want the Rights WITHOUT having to submit to the Responsibility that is attached and SO Militias became unviable and were slowly replaced with a Standing Army AND a Selective Militia (the National Guard). SO if you want to complain about your "Gun Rights" and your government being overbearing then blame those who refused to do their duty, the common citizen who refused to participate in his Militia training. I would go so far as to bet (based on my own experiences of watching those who avoided the Draft during Vietnam being the loudest conservative noise makers about 'serving your country' and "bearing arms". Yet when their turn to serve was there they hid out in College or got married or some other avoidance scam.) that you most of the pro gun people here avoided serving their country when they were of an age to do so .
Son the silliness and fear is you for believing the bull@!$%# you posted, here, let me post it for you again with my factual statement, since you're trying to say this is the first time a Vietnam Veteran has been killed by law enforcement:
Some of you people are such @!$%#ing idiots it's pathetic, the fear is your's, it came out in your fearful statement about cops killing a decorated Vietnam Veteran.
That's not the first Vietnam Veteran to be killed by the FBI/CIA/DEA, your local sheriff, or police department, and it won't be the last, so quit the scare tactics trying to say all of this is just happening now.
Im with Confussed-1578043 on this one.
Just a matter of time before drones will be used domestically for spying.
Then drone missile strikes will be called for against the pesky domestic terrorists(anyone that dosn't agree with the powers that be).
Utter BS! This means that they can legally assassinate anyone at any time under the guise of "terrorism". I didn't like this crap under Bush Jr. and I don't like the Obama administration's continuation of it either. This is wrong, no other word to describe it.
RAW-316448
Redefining homegrown terrorism as "workplace violence"
Don't forget testing the waters with Fast and Furious
Benghazi just another "bump in the road"
A complicit media propaganda machine.
and no one is worried about these military"exercises" going on in our large cities??? Come on American's Democrats and Republican's time to pull your head out of the dark place, take a deep breath and SEE what's going on here!
So, what else is this administration "hiding" ?
Guess we could look no further than the CIA budget busting 1,000,000+ SQFT Cyber Facility in Utah.
Hummmmmmmmmm ..... "Paranoia is a acquired asset ..." when dealing with our government ...
Evil is overcoming our nation under the guise of "national Interest." The timing of this frightening revelation could have not come at a worse time.
Whoever has supported this truly "Evil" proposition should be imprisoned as a traitor immediately ... for this is truly more frightening than any terrorist! Whoever supports this is far more dangerous than Al Qaeda or Osama Bin Laden!
When will they start killing us at random for our beliefs?
I'm more than a little amused at all the self-righteous indignation from the peanut gallery. Surely, anytime an American is killed by our government, including the "death penalty," it is alarming to most Americans. However, the very reason we have spies, special agents and secret services is because the world doesn't really allow for our idealism, and never has. The need for secrecy is so fundamental to our political system that the "national interest" euphemism has become a trump card that grants carte blanche authority whenever things get a little ugly. National interest? Ok, no questions and no information. The problem is the American people know they don't want to know and have set up an elaborate system to keep the dirty work secret. There clearly is a balance of liberty vs security and killing double agents or traitors is part of the price we pay for our democracy.
...and yet libs fight for the rights of illegal people in our own country.
my2cent$ ---What the heck are you talking about do you realize they can declare anyone an imminent threat and take them out. Do you recall a thing in the bill of rights about due process.
“A lawful killing in self-defense is not an assassination. Who the heck are they kidding. Where are the Obama supporters on this one huh where are you Fiesty and friends? With all the crap going on in the world these bozos are throwing out the constitution in the name of protecting us. Is that not what Hitler did?
People, look at the big picture here. We have the Patriot Act which effectively monitors ALL communication in the US. The NSA is building a HUGE complex in Utah to perform these acts. We have the NDAA 10-31 which gives the government the authority to snatch anyone up in the night and hold them without charges, trial, representation, or due process. Just because some bureaucrat picks a name off a list. Now after the CT shootings there is a giant movement, supported by the government, to limit and ban guns and magazines. The government will have access to all of your medical records, all tied in with your "Cradle to Grave Tracking Number" otherwise know as your SSN. Any bureaucrat can type your SSN into a computer and have the complete story of your life right before his eyes. Is this really any of the governments business ? No, it is not.
Do you see a pattern developing here ? If all these things were put into place at one time the masses would riot. But it is being done in a piecemeal fashion, a little here, a little there and the government is getting away with it because the American public has the attention span of a goldfish. We don't watch the news, but can't miss Survivor or Dancing With The Stars. We are concerned with every move and utterance of the Kardashians but are clueless about what our government is doing, which is just the way the government wants it.
Just like the Germans of the 30's we are welcoming our own destruction by not having the sense to realize that our rights are being eroded slowly and steadily by a government that is seeking more and more control over the lives of it's citizens. We have a charismatic leader who tells us what we want to hear and he has been elevated to almost Godlike status. To disagree with any of his policies or action gets you branded a racist at best whether you disagree with his policy or plan of action, race notwithstanding.
The last two presidents have been taking pot shots at the Constitution and in some cases outright ignored it so it breaches party lines.
I agree with tag above (#1.23). Once you leave the country and join up, you're fair game. If you are in this country and suspected of terrorist activities, then you're arrested, not shot by drones. The first time we have a drone attack on American citizens within our country's borders, then it's time to stand up and be counted.
Kornfed, yeah, we "libs" don't want this garbage happening, either. Let's say we work together and kick the government's azz properly to ensure this scenario doesn't come to fruition.
Gee, Weren't the conspiracy "theorists" warning people about this just a few short years ago?
biker4life, you made the good call. Known enemy of the state. Doesn't matter whether they are a U.S. citizen or not. You can't wage war against a government and demand it's protection. Rules of war are , surrender and be a captive, or kill or be killed.
It is absolutely certain that this government is not ours. They are using us to take over the world for the private international banker monetary system monopolizing war profiteering overlords. It is fact that over 80% of the citizens do not trust the USG. We need to follow the constitution and start a national referendum for a constitutional convention as in Article 5. "... of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof," They are absolute despot criminals and have that same 80% majority of us convinced we can do nothing against them. It is time for us to organise and Unite. We are not liberals or republicans we can agree on specific demands. Stop 99% of the secrecy, tell they FED they are in moral ethical default and we owe them nothing. That will take back our government and the rest will fall into place.
moshuluu
But, but, but all you limp-wristed Libbies have been glowing with praise about Barrack Husseins record of killing all the extremists.
So now he didn't do it? Or is it your favorite escape clause, "Bush did it"?
Try to keep up Spanky.
Roosterboy
Now your talkin!
This reminds me of "Animal Farm". Let's just change the commandments around a little bit. Let's just trump up some charges.
IMO if your ass flies to Yemen and you're out there in a group of Muslims preaching hate and that it would be a good thing in God's eyes if you started killing Americans wherever you can find them, then your ass deserves a drone strike and I won't lose a bit of sleep over it.
Awlaki went there, did that, and ate a drone strike. +1 for the good guys.
In response to Ron. I spent over 40 years in the US military and I am also an attorney. The National Guard as now constituted is part of the National Military Force and ultimately under the control of the President. The National Guard is not the equivalent of the well regulated militia referred to in the 2nd Amendment. The 2nd amendment does two things: first, it guarantees a citizens right to bear arms for the citizen's defense and second, it authorizes the States to have an independent militia which due to costs and other factors the State's no longer arm and maintain. In addition the drone memo is in my opinion not only on its face unconstitutional but is inconsistent with the law of war as recognized by the rest of the world since World War II. 9-11 was a one time event that is unlikely to be repeated in that form and the emergency actions created in response like the Department of Homeland Security and the TSA should have sun-setted years ago. We have turned every Government office down to the local animal shelter into an armed fortress. The international War on Terror has expanded to a war on every rifle totting brigand who proclaims allegiance to some cause we disagree with anywhere in the World. Does anyone seriously believe some Afghan tribesman on a remote hill top, a goat herding Bedouin in a far off desert or a barefoot sub Saharan African insurgent poses a serious threat to the United States?
It is not so much as they can do this it is the vague outline of rules around it.. They do not need proof just someones assumption is good enough.. So like the police abuse probable cause the feds can as well.. Anyone that has firearms or a stock of supplies or just gets pissed of at the overbearing government without any hint that they have or will attack anyone is a viable target.. Wow that's half the country, where can I buy stock in drones and missiles because they will need a lot of them.. By the way aren't crimes committed in a state considered state jurisdiction unless they are perpetuated across state lines or against a federal entity?? Seems our state rights are being grabbed here but we do have homeland security or as we call them brown shirts and the patriot act..
So lets arm revolutionaries in foreign lands and disarm Americans for our own protection of course..
Two things: 1) If individuals in other countries used this rationale, many members of the US government could be, under this rationale, assassinated. 2) The local equivalent is an individual deciding on the basis of a rumor that someone across town is a threat, then going across town and killing that person in their home.
The drone program is only going to create more hatred towards America. Our government never considers the long term effects of its bullying.
It isn't surprising to see the american tealibanians defending their talibanian/al quaida counterparts. They betray this country then they deserve to be targeted.They should have gotten this Al Awlaki the same day they got his daddy that took him over there for anti-american training. His daddy by the way was a well known american traitor turned terrorist leader. This was a case where the apple didn't fall far from the tree and proved to be just as rotten.
As a conservative, the loss of our rights as Americans is very concerning to me. However, on this specific incident, Obama's administration cannot be completely blamed for this power grab. As much as I dislike the policies of the current administration, I hate to admit that he did not start this. Bush Jr. began this mess with the passage of the Patriot Act in 2001. As an American society, we need to stop being so divisive and come together again in order to solve the problems that face our country. The attempted eradication of our rights is just one of those problems....
@ Irvmani, who wrote
You're not saying you fear the prospect that the U.S. military would target you personally FOR ANY REASON, on U.S. soil no less, with a drone strike, are you? Trust me, it'll never happen. I'd say we're all pretty safe from that. We have law enforcement here to deal with domestic "bad guys" of all stripes. But we can't really go enforcing our laws in, say, Yemen, Afghanistan, place like that, can we?
So I ask you, what do you propose as a solution? Wait 'til they launch an attack on us and THEN nab them? And as I already wrote, we can't just go into all the places where they hide out and nab 'em 'cause it would be messy. So really, what do we do?
Hypothetical supposition: Sometime in the future a American President and US intelligence organizations have knowledge of 5 US citizens. All US born. None are Arab but are Muslim converts. They are able to elude capture by staying in countries that won't let us grab and arrest them. We can't get them with our military troops either. These 5 guys hatch a plot to detonate a suitcase nuke or a dirty bomb and pull off a second 911. They have the bomb. Now here's the question. Should that president use a drone strike to kill them when the chance presents itself? Or should he/she wait and hope they don't disappear and are caught before any casualities occur? Far fetched? Remember no one thought 911 was possible or likely.
Once they take away the 2nd Amendment and disarm the nation
--It's all over
@Overlord. The USA has not historically had to use terror and killing overseas to support the "American way of life" because our system was attractive enough to even be partly copied by overseas colonies as they became independent from their mother countries. AND other nations traded with us in the hopes that they could become rich. Our Bill of Rights inspired other nations to write their own Bills of Rights (like India) and the idea of elected government trumping a dictatorial one began here and has not died overseas. A quick history lesson: The problem began with something I call Imperial Merchantilism which began (in force) in the 1870's and 1880's and is still going on today. Imperial Merchantilism is this: "I use force to open up your tiny country to my products and even go as far as to economically colonize your country" and the Western Powers did this to China in the late 1800's to the 1920's and tried to do the same thing with Japan but only the Japanese proved to be on an upward trend and became a dangerous enemy. The "beat your neighbors over a head with a club" approach has left many nations angry with the US and rightfully so. So now we are setting up a massive security state because the method of how the US operates overseas has made the US it's own worst enemy. You know why we got attacked on 9-11? That's why. 99% of human behavior is economic and you could say that this new "Jihad" has it's roots in deep anger towards US economic practices overseas. What would be a solution? Easy, stop forcing nations to dance to our will and treat them as equal trading partners.
So, just what is "an associated force"?
Someone of the opposite political party?
Someone who doesn't advocate the current social position?
Someone who spoke out?
The President of the United States has taken it upon himself to be the "Killer-in-chief". Obama sent drones against American citizens within the first two months of becoming President. These people weren't accused of any crimes, nor were they active soldiers against America. Then asked the Justice Department to draft a policy justifying his act after the fact. It has taken four years for the press and Congressional leaders to question Presidential motives and legalities. What has this country come to? Obama has no respect for human life or the U.S. Constitution. One can only hope that Obama's next American citizen targets are those bloggers on this site that believe this is what the President should do, or find some other rationale to justify it!
Since the president has the ability through executive order to declare an emergency and control food, fuel and media/Internet seems it is just a matter of time.. Some agent will be kicking in your door and taking the food out of your cupboards, pumping out you heating oil tank and confiscating your firearms and 2 way radios.. This will all be for your safety and protection of course.. Are we screwed or what?? Since most of the military personnel have no clue that they are here to protect us and the Constitution first but think the presidents orders are law it will get messy real fast.. Chavez was right that we would swing communist without a fight.. Seems far too many people are begging for a police state and more free stuff from uncle Obama to worry..
I'm curious - there is nothing in this justification that limits its use to only outside the United States . . . now think about that one for a moment and talk amongst yourselves . . .
To A Soldiers Dad,
I am a WWII soldier's daughter. I saw Dachau when I was 4 years old, and remember it to this day. It has been more than the last 2 administrations. It goes back almost 125 years, TR was a progressive, as was Wilson. The list comes forward to 9/11. Look it up, research.
We have all been lax in guarding our Constitution. Now I fear for my grandchildren.
We are all reaping what we have sown, and (as they used to say) the chickens are coming home to roost.
Known traitors conspiring with the enemy on foreign soil? Well, we have so many rules in the courts that the guilty get away. I wouldn't be surprised to see drones where drug cartels congregate, gang bangers, etc. There are so many evil people-it fills the prisons to overflowing and they let them walk the streets again.
At one point in time (generally from 1776 until about 1960) American citizens who were actively engaged in planning attacks against the US were considered traitors and subject to execution. I don't see how shoving a Hellfire missile up their backsides is a big deal if they're engaged in planning terrorist attacks in other countries. After 1960, they became known as radical college students who later became tenured professors and mentors to a president.
It doesn't take any thinking. The Patriot's Act gave them the right to simply make you, me or anyone else disappear anytime they want to. Your friends or family or anyone else have absolutely no right to know if they took you, where they took you and what they do with you after taking you and the Supreme Court will protect them. And that is a right they can exercise right here in the United States.
SOLDIERS DAD , research a thing called PROJECT ECHELON , then research northwoods memo , then tuskegee syphilis tests , the us govt has been doing these things for yrs , only now , its IN YOUR FACE!!!
SickOfPolitics2
BULLSH*T!!!!
Barrack Hussein signed a 4 year extension of the Act on May 26, 2011.
He had a chance to let it expire, he signed it by Autopen from the G-8 conference in Europe.
The Patriot Act is his as he even admits it helped hunt down Osama Porn Laden.
Obama is taking baby steps. It's slowly happening. The media continues to ignore.
There are at least 3 people working in the Obama admin. who have close personal ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. Inside job. The media continues to ignore. The media continues to allow Obama to get away with a lot.
Baby steps people, baby steps.
I can ONLY see this as having any LEGITIMATE backing, if and only if they have evidence of traitorous actions against the USA, in words or deeds. (Even without a declaration of war. These perps don't recognize the Geneva Convention.)
f u kin g Awesome as heard on the Super bowl. Now does Festy get the picture, Take our guns away and kill us with drones. You know they are watching this thread. GPS your house into their system and we all vaporize in our sleep.
*********************I TRIED TO WARN ALL OF YOU BEFORE**********************
And what was your ungrateful response for risking myself: "Take your Meds", "Conspiracy Theorist", "Wearing a Tin Foil Hat", etc..
What part of: THIS IS ALL PRESIDENT OBAMA'S DICTATING OF WHAT WILL BE DONE.
Like what I posted before as President Obama's January 21, 2009 Patriot Acts (Plural US Laws, not Bush Patriot Act singular US Law) as: Expanded Presidential Powers. Monitoring and Censorship of All US Communications. Without Warrant Cooperation of All US Communications Provider. US Military Use of Deadly Force Against US Citizens. Preemptive Detentions. US Military Tribunals renamed by the Obama Administration to US Military Commissions (Legal Defense no access to "classified" witnesses, nor "classified" evidence, US Government determines what is "classified"), (No) Material Support to "Terrorist Organizations" (US Department of State Lists of Terrorist Organization) as No "Expert Advise" including "Legal Representation as Expert Advise" (currently being fought by ACLU). Inclusion of the previously defeated as Unconstitutional US Senate S.1959 and US House of Representatives H.R.1955 aka the George Orwell, 1984, Thought Crimes Laws in that the Thought as written or witnessed verbal is the crime, not the actual criminal activity, and definition from S.1959 and H.R.1955 as "Anyone stating a radical change to (US) Government is a Homegrown Domestic Terrorist". Lots of other things. References to US NORTHCOM, Redacted, US Insurrection Act, etc..
President Obama attempts the external method to Circumvent and Violate the 2nd Amendment by having his Appointed US Ambassador to the United Nations sign and implement a United Nations Gun Control Treaty, as like most of things most Firearms are no longer made in the US and Outsourced, fortunately the few sane Democrats saw how this was Unconstitutional and joined the Republicans:
Democrats Oppose Obama-U.N. Gun Control Treaty
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2011/07/26/democrats-oppose-obama-un-gun-control-treaty
On January 22, 2009 President Obama shown during a Staged News Media Event signing his January 21, 2009 Patriot Acts (yeah, yeah clap, clap people around and behind President Obama, some of the same sh!ts that tried S.1959 and H.R.1955), 04:38 minutes of 11:55 minutes:
Naomi Wolf: 'Obama can lock any US citizen up without trial'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLSeD19m3UE&feature=fvst
2012 Obama Signs NDAA, ACLU Disgusted INDEFINITE DETENTIONS OF US CITIZENS. President Obama uses "Executive Privilege" not to answer the US Courts if this is being done pending his appeal of his NDAA being Ruled Unconstitutional.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IeuE16LLDY
Monitoring and Censorship of All US Communications:
Feds' electronic snooping of Americans up sharply, says ACLU
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/technolog/feds-electronic-snooping-americans-sharply-says-aclu-6170914
I told all of you before that "No Such Agency" was tasked the Monitoring and Censorship of All US Communications. In February 2009, most Internet Sites under threat of prosecution changed to Monitored and Censored US Content Only, with separate International Sites, so within the US you would get http//404, http//403, Not available in your Country/Nation, Service Unavailable, Blocked in your Region, etc.; and even youtube.com February 2009 under threat of prosecution changed to "must register to post or view content" with individual IP Address verifications.
Just to let all of you know to save manufacturing costs the differences between a current RQ (unarmed reconassiance drone) and an MQ (armed drone) are minor (bolt on pylons and release mechanisms, targeting package).
Then you have President Obama's Army stating the Murder of US Citizens during President Obama's Reelection Campaign (Obama standing there clapping):
"President Obama, this is your Army. We are ready to march. Let's take these son of b!tches out and give America back to an America where we belong," US Labor Union Leader Jimmy Hoffa Junior, President Obama does not have him arrested for the Terroristic Threatening of US Citizens, Conspiracy to Commit the Murder of US Citizens, Homegrown Domestic Terrorism of US Citizens, etc..
And NO, mountainlady, they are not going to be taking these son of b!tches out to breakfast, lunch or supper. This is the identical thing that Chancellor Hitler's Sturmabteilung (SA) "Brownshirts" and Mussolini's Blackshirts said and did. When the SA disagreed with Chancellor Hitler; Chancellor Hitler had the SA Eliminated and replaced the SA with his Political Labor Union (the Model for the US Labor Unions), the National Socialist German Workers Party, Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei aka NAZIs.
I also previously told ALL of you that this is NOT the 1990s Poll when most of the US Military would NOT Use Deadly Force of US Citizens. Now a days we know the pecking order of Summary Executions for disobeying as "Traitors". And even after we are Summarily Executed, our Families, Relatives, Friends, etc. will be Detained Indefinitely and subjected to Extraordinary Interrogations as "possible" or "suspected" co-conspirators to our Treason (Guilty until proven innocent).
Guilty until proven innocent just like then Speaker for All Demoncrats, Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi's statement just after President Obama's January 21, Patriot Acts became US Laws:
Speaker of the House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, "Anyone returning from the Wars are potential Homegrown Domestic Terrorists"(Guilty until proven innocent).
How about this YOU go research WHO, WHOM, determines "the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen." Ooopss we targeted mountainlady, as an American Al Quada "Homegrown Domestic Terrorist" hiding in the US Mountains now we have choices: 1. Brag we preemptively terminated one at the US for Political Gain, classify everything. 2. Have Private Snuffy get the shovel, scrape up the remains put into a plastic bag to be incinerated or dumped in the ocean, deploy Private Snuffy to get killed, wash hands, sun comes up, birds chirping.
Go right ahead and bury your heads in the sand. I warned you before. There is more coming.
This "memo" from "Our Government" is THE Official Notice To All of US, Today Feruary 4, 2013, By The secretive people who control our government and Who will whack anyone at anytime with impunity and to Hell with our American Constitutuional Rights and DUE PROCESS. Taking away citizen's firearms Coincides with this Major Intrusion and American Government TakeOver...Who??? Well, The Major Corporations working in tandem with AIPAC. Aipac?, what's that??? American Israeli Public Affairs Comittee which dictates policy in congress and works Very closely with controlling FBI and CIA and Their Fed Banking System Controlling Money Supply. Where from Here??? Will there be drone strikes on Americans in America taking out Homes, City Blocks and Families??? Get Ready and Mums The Word.
Silly Reps who attack over this are too hypocritical to admit that they would have supported it under Bush. And did.
These are known members of Al Queda, in a foreign country. A terrorist group sworn to attack, kill etc Americans in any way they can. As someone said here there are plenty of American Citizens (in name only) who are members of that group. You join it or its affiliates you are no longer an American , but an enemy of America, a terrorist. YOu cannot use your former status as an American Citizen as a shield.
Are you all idiots?????? Can you not read??????
The presently has the legal authority and has always had the legal authority to attack any American citizen who threatens the United States of America with an armed soldier or an armed civilian or with a tank or with a rocket fired from a ship at sea, or with any means or method available to the government.
When the terriroist or the drug dealers gain control of an area in the United States all you good citizens who are so horrified at the usages of drones are going to be screaming and cursing at the government to use the very drones you claim to be a violation or proof of the wickedness of the government.
You can't play the self righteous bigot and win in today's politics. We are looking at the real danger of the drug cartels uniting and forming an insurgance . . . wake up wake up wake up . . .
Get down off of your lilly white soap boxes and wise up to what the real world looks like . . . not your religious fanatic minority hating creepy government hating television preacher's conspiricy dogs . . . christian television is ruining america . . . ruining their ability to think freely and understand reality . . .
God is going to destroy these corrupt men who have turned God's word into a mockery of the very governments that God created. Not one of these television preachers has the morals or the intellect to lead anyone anywhere but astray . . . they are all theives and liars . . . snake oil salesmen and one only has to read the comments on these comment boards to see the fruit of their labor.
biker4life
And who gets to define "enemies"??? And more importantly, who will be defining it 10, 20, 40 years from now??? You really think it's ok to put that power in the hands of God only knows who??? I wouldn't buy a @!$%#ing car from 3/4 of the people we elect to "represent" us now, why the hell would I want them to have the ability to ignore the Constitution and summarily execute any American citizen who, in the future, may meet the definition of "enemy"??
And when you say "in the US or not" are you advocating the use of lethal drone strikes right here in the US?? Surely not??
We all tried to warn them what was coming...Obama said he " wasn't done "yet. I hate to see what it will be when he IS done!! It will be the USSA. Obama is a narcissist and will use any and every means against those who speak out against him - he called them his "enemies" (sound familiar? It should - think Germany 1930).
Case in point - After the shooting in Sandy Hook, he used that tragedy to institute 23 Executive orders, bypassing Congress completely. He has children surrounding him when he made the announcement. Here's another announcement see if this sounds familiar:
or this:
— Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf
Someone above said I wish they would the DOJ would have done a better job with the definition; it's too vague. That is EXACTLY the reason IT IS VAGUE. They want to be able to define it whichever way they want!
A leaked U.S. Army document shows the preparations for dealing with terrorist and other detainees (via the stupid indefinite detention clause that was quietly signed into law in Dec 2011 in the National Defense Reauthoriazation Bill (NADD) that also funded troops and the DOD )
The manual lists the following roles that are designated to the “PSYOP team”:
http://www.alipac.us/f19/leaked-u-s-army-document-outlines-plan-re-education-camps-america-256657/
Now the DOD has come out and said it doesn’t apply within the US, when it clearly states it does. They don’t deny it exists, they are just upset that it got leaked:
http://www.pakalertpress.com/2012/05/10/army-admits-re-education-camp-manual-not-intended-for-public-release/
Don’t believe it?
In 2009, the National Guard posted a number of job opportunities looking for “Internment/Resettlement Specialists” to work in “civilian internee camps” within the United States.
In December last year it was also revealed that Halliburton subsidiary KBR is seeking sub-contractors to staff and outfit “emergency environment” camps located in five regions of the United States.
In 2006, KBR was contracted by Homeland Security to build detention centers designed to deal with “an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S,” or the rapid development of unspecified “new programs” that would require large numbers of people to be interned.
Documented further here with actual video of the FEMA camps and interviews with the people running them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qx20LA4PM0
Congressman Steve Cohen (D) from Tennessee, stated on Jesse Ventura’s show, Conspiracy Theory, that there are no FEMA camps. After viewing Cohen’s strong denial (in the interview above) about the existence of FEMA camps, I am confused. Cohen co-sponsor of HR bill 645, which clearly mandates that creation of FEMA camps, yet he completely denies their existence and yet they were used to house some of the Sandy Hurricane victims.
http://beforeitsnews.com/media/2012/11/cbs-news-admits-fema-camps-are-real-2448238.html
And then we have joint military police “exercises “ in the middle of the night in Miami (two separate occasions) and elsewhere in the US.
http://www.infowars.com/media-characterizes-military-invasion-of-south-florida-as-cool-tourist-story/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri9ioCbqJCU&feature=share
People, you had better be waking friggin UP!
Frankly, I am surprised that NBC which licks Obama's boots even ran this story...wonder how Obama will punish them?
Frankly True
Just as surely as people such as yourself would have denounced it. When criticizing others for hypocrisy you should avoid making light of your own.
Fighting and killing a US citizen that has actually taken up arms against us and gets killed in that action does not bother me, BUT if there is no actual combat that they are involved in, and we are allowing anyone to spin the idea that they are the enemy without valid prosecution is too close to allowing our government to attack any citizen that is voicing dissatisfaction within Our Democratic Country!!!! We already know that the government will spin up stories to try and get us to fall for their propaganda, as evidenced by the Weapons of Mass Destruction from the Bush era! We do not normally sentence 16 year olds to death here in our country[ I think there are 19 states that do after a trial.] even if they commit a horrendous crime! The SCOTUS has made the age cutoff at 15. People wonder what the pro-gun advocates are talking about when they say that the second amendment is there for us to fight in the case of TYRANNY!! It is time to open your eyes!!!
Here is a quote from monticello.org, supposedly from Thomas Jefferson:
You might also want to look up the seven stages of democracy, attributed to Alexander Fraser Tytler written over 200 years ago, and decide for yourself at what stage we currently are in, and how close we are to the end of our democracy,according to his writings. I can only hope that we do not need to have another fight against tyranny again in our country, but hope that we are able to fight for our freedom. Instead of hoping, like many other countries, that there will be a country that will come to our defense, and help us defend our freedoms.
A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
...and from the article:
Emphasis on 'not charged with any crimes'. Besides, in a drone strike, if they get one supposedly bad guy, 6 more innocent civilians bite the dust too. And you're okay with that?
be wary everyone. it will not be long before any sort of speech or assembly which shed a negative light on the government or the corporations that purchase our politicians is labeled as terrorism and met with lethal force without regard to evidence, due process, etc. it is no small coincidence that they also want to take away our guns and with it our right and ability to defend ourselves from our government.
Let's see now, you can fill your car with gasoline, you can talk about driving a car over people, and perhaps plan to drive over people at some sort of event. Then the military can send a drone after you, because you have the activity of filling your car with gasoline. Because you talked about driving a car over people at that event, some bureaucrat can say it was an imminent threat? Yet, you committed no crime, you exercised free speech, and filled your car with gasoline, that is all you did! In absence of a crime being committed, there is no crime committed, until that crime is committed, no crime has been committed. Even if there is, a citizen must been proven guilty of that crime, before the citizen can be denied life, liberty, or property under the law. This is going way over the line!
THE SKY IS FALLING the sky is falling. lol So the legal premise is this. If a person in a hostile area is planing attack on you and other Americans, and happens to be an American, the gov. can use drones to kill said terrorist. And the right wing dooms day people act like this is something new and dangerous.
Guess what, if you are on American soil, or in a nation that is an ally, you are attainable. therefor, no drone strike needed. So it has no bearing on Americans, unless they join a terror group. like the ones you guys say we should bomb anyway. And you turn this into doom and gloom.
The premise of law that has been for ever says that any swat team leader or gov agent, police, fbi, atf etc. can shoot you dead. this is not new. the attorney general is simply clarifying the existing state and federal law that already is and applying it to drones. even classified info must be released to the house committee on foreign affairs in closed session. Guess what, bush had the same laws applied, so did clinton, and bush sr. and reagan. etc. the only thing reagan didnt have was the drones. Bush sr. had them at his disposal.
So where is the story? there isnt one, just another right wing excuse to spread fear and hate for our gov.
David, you really need to stop this bull. if you actually believe half the things you post, then you need to be concerned about YOU, not the president. on the chance that your not just a troll, try reading the conditions again. i'll repeat, the key here is attainable. to use a drone the person would have to be so deep into enemy territory that seal could not possibly get to them without great risk.
So if your a right wing nut case, and Obama doesn't like you, and your sitting on a park bench, there is no provision to kill you. Why? cause members of any law enforcement agency can arrest you. then they have to charge you, and you get your day in court. So whats the problem? there isn't one.
@JimSpence - I would suggest you study up. The 107th Congress passed the Patriot Act in 2001 and Obama was still just a "political baby" in the Illinois Senate at that point. The US House was Republican controlled and the Senate was evenly divided in the 107th Congress. Therefore, the Republican party was actually in control during this initial power grab. For what it's worth, you even contradict yourself in your post.
You acknowledge that he didn't create it, yet you think it is only his fault for extending it. I disagree with the extension of it and the additional provisions, but I'm not so narrow-minded that I can't see it was created by the right. Wake up and stop blindly following...Red and Blue are not the only colors in the spectrum.
I forgot to mention Fusion Centers, and am worried about the fusion centers funded by federal monies but have no federal rules and regs on them. Look them up!
Well now I see why they sometimes call Obama Bush III.
More here - this is just the beginning:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/12/gov-dossiers-on-us-citizens/
Probably making their naughty and nice list from this article right here...indeed, what did Valarie Jarrett, the unofficial Obama White House titular chief, say:
And she wasn’t trying to be quiet about it at all. And they were all listening and shaking their heads and smiling while she said it. Pretty creepy.
You know that this is serious when Rachel Maddow actually calls out the White House on this issue. I just got done watching her segment on this. If she, an ultra Liberal, calls foul on this, I sure as @!$%# cannot WAIT to hear the left wing spin on this!!
I was surprised that NBC would report this...
I am a fan of Goth Liberal chicks. They are cutie pies. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsUBKsNF1HM&NR=1&feature=endscreen
So funny and ironic how the wrong-wing nutjobs can't read the article and see that this authorizes attacks of Americans who have gone overseas and joined groups of terrorists like Al Qaeda. And then only when they can't be reasonably captured. It basically states that the US can kill traitorous terrorists in foreign countries in the same manner as foreign terrorists in that same foreign country.
Maybe we should just let them come back to the US and do the attacks that they're training for?
Funny how Reading Comprehension is much more advanced by the left than the "right."
This was dreamed up in the Bush/Cheney years and needs go the way of the dodo bird. I'm sure Obama won't do the Rumsfeld two-step and throw this in the trash where it belongs....
NBC should have covered this as well...another little secret, or unknown executive order. (I still can't post a viable link, so please accept my apologies.) Make note the differences from Reagan's order given in 1983.
thelibertybeacon.com /2013/02/04/ obama-gives-foreign-cops-new-police-powers-in-u-s/
As for what I think about this article, just wait until DOH is unleashed on us. Don't think it won't happen either. Nope, not a conspiracy theorist, just have my eyes open.
The only words that come to my mind: @!$%# the government.
So if your a right wing nut case, and Obama doesn't like you, and your sitting on a park bench, there is no provision to kill you. Why? cause members of any law enforcement agency can arrest you. then they have to charge you, and you get your day in court. So whats the problem? there isn't one.
Not under the NDAA. The military can indefinitely detain American citizens without charge or trial now.
Its a conformation Obama no longer works for the people he is now the emperor, you can be terminated if lord Obama decides you don't fit his program. there will be no more of this we the people crap.
According to NDAA, you can get labeled a terrorist if you utter 'constitution' too often.
PROVE I AM WRONG WITH YOUR RESEARCHED FACTS OR FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE.
THIS IS AN ADULT DISCUSSION.
NOT YOUR ADOLESCENT NAME CALLING, DEFLECTION, NOR YOUR LAME ATTEMPTS AT PERSONAL ATTACKS.
SickOfPolitics2,
I told you that the President Obama (44) January 21, 2009 Patriot Acts (Plural US Laws) ARE NOT the same as the President Bush (43) Patriot Act (Singular US Law).
Previously, President Bush (43) attempted the Monitoring and Censorship o fAll US Communications, including the without Warrant support of AT&T, this was Ruled Unconstitutional and "Stopped" (supposedly, President Bush also used "Executive Privilage", to not answer the US Courts.).
I provide you a link, and the actual time of that video link of 04:38 minutes of 11:55 minutes of the Staged News Media Event of January 22, 2009, what more do you want.
Naomi Wolf: 'Obama can lock any US citizen up without trial'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLSeD19m3UE&feature=fvst
You want more, go ask the ACLU to demand the Unclassified portions. With the same result the President Obama Administration denying the existence of these Unclassified Memorandums (Memos). I had previously asked all of you to go look at all of these and stated if any are Unconstitutional TOUGH, that is what you voted for:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions
And yes, I already went thru all of them all the way back to 2009.
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
Well, only if I can take that stupid part about due process out!
Did any of you actually read the document? I did, there are no references to attacks on US Soil. Everything in this document is what the military has been doing with drones in the middle east for years.
My bigger concern than this document is the timing of it. After the Sandy Hook shooting, the government got the entire nation in an uproar over gun control and gun rights. During all of that turmoil, there was a bill slipped in during a midnight session making it illegal to protest anywhere there are Secret Service guarding ANY official. The official just has to tell the Secret Service to arrest someone and they can be held indefinitely.
My question is while everyone is being distracted by this what is the next thing being slipped in right under our noses without our knowledge? Be realistic people, these are unclassified documents that were "leaked" to the press.
I am not an Obama supporter and never will be. I will never give up my weapons, it is my Constitutional Right to have them. After all the smoke and mirrors events going on lately I think this is to distract us from something else.
Oh my God, I cannot believe the hypocrisy! Lemme get this straight, one day you all are foaming at the mouths calling our President a non-American Terrorist Muslim. Then when he attacks and kills those seemingly involved in HURTING AMERICANS AND AMERICA, you instantaneously switch to defending the assumed terrorists (just because they're Murican) and call him a murderer.
Look up the phrase "Damned if you do, damned if you don't", and you will see a big fat picture of President Barack Obama plastered right beside it. I guarandamntee you. He will NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER please you. Turn on the Faux Newz, you've almost gone one minute without being fed lies and fear.
"my2cent$The people to whom this memo refers are enemy combatants. They've stood to be counted with those who would destroy the U.S.A. If you're OK with your neighbor packing up & shipping to the M.E. to train in techniques that could be used against us or our troops with no reprisals whatsoever, you're foolish."
Are you CRAZY!?
They are talking about a DRONE STRIKE on American soil!
JESUS! How F*&king far are you going to let the government go because you're afraid of the Boogie Man?
Now besides the fact that using the military inside our borders, for police action, is already illegal we have plenty of police that can take down these guys if they wanted to. This "why f around? lets just do a drone strike" is CRAZY!
And they don't even need any evidence? All they have to do is get on TV and claim they knew that they/you were a leader of some terrorist cell so they "took them/you out".
Grows SOME BALLS and stop letting your rights be trampled on because your scared! We haven't had a Terrorist attack since 9/11 and yet they still use it as an excuse to take more and more from us.
True, he didn't initiate that. But oddly enough, he perpetuates it.
Foreign drone built by Israel lands in USA, 17Dec2010... see www.elpasotimes/ci_16875462
The US Border Control are already flying Predator Drones above the southern US Border. These same drones were then used to hunt common criminals in North Dakota, reported by the LA Times Dec 2011...
Homeland Security has awarded grants to 13 POLICE departments to purchase drones. POLICE departments from Seattle to TX, already have theirs... see - 5 Aug 2012 article by Brian Bennett, LA Times
The US Marine drones have been assisting the local POLICE around Jacksonville, NC, for DECADES. They were used to track motorcycle gangs to help train the new UAV Operators. Just GOOGLE - Hofmann Forest & Croatan National Forest used for UAV training...
These drones are in the USA and are being utilized by the US Government and Local POLICE. And have been operating in here for DECADES...
After they arm these drones, 20+lb of HE per missile for the Predator...
Will the acceptable COLLATERIAL Damage be the same as in Pakistan??? Where the KILL ratio is 5+bystanders per bad guy...
And NO ACCOUNTABILITY for the operators, as the CIA currently is...
I don't think it's hard to imagine how this power could be misused in the future.
There are plenty of people now who would consider those of faith as enemies of the state.
No judge, no jury, and no worries about any innocents that may be in the way.
Would a President, well - let's say a Bush or a Republican be given such a pass on this issue
Why so hush hush on Obamanation media - No guts - No drive - No spine
Your place in the history of your profession is cemented - worthless agenda peddlers
Witness for yourself, in real time, the turning of America into something we would not want at all if we stepped back and looked at the big picture, all enabled by morphing the rules by the elite.
And you think it's 'conspiracy theory'.
MOST COMMENTERS on this board are horrified and angry about this regardless of their political leanings. Sometimes I am so proud of us! I could tell this was where both political parties were headed when I saw the patriot act introduced by Bush and resigned by Obama. The fact that our elected leaders are Slowly stripping away citizens' rights is a crime.
A majority are very naive and simply out of touch with reality when considering what is required to protect the U.S. and its interest and citizens around the world. NSA is an organization that plays a vital part is keeping U.S. Citizens safe from attacks from within and foreign attacks. A U.S. Citizens that is an active member of, supporter of, field operator of ANY organization that plans or carries out attacks against the U.S. anywhere in the world is a valid target. The fact that the terrorist happens to be a U.S. Citizen or carries Dual U.S. Citizenship with another country has no protection if they plan to harm U.S. citizens or interest anywhere in the world. They are a valid target for removal from the Gene Pool.
I don't care who,why or what and then "by" what, all I see is collateral damage and or oops.
Great job all you independents and Hispanics on electing Adolph Obama!
I agree, FamousAmos-3755959. When President Bush instituted a program known as "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" against the people who were an "imminent threat" it was condemn.
Now the same group that called "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" has given us this "Take-out" orders to be used against the same "imminent threat". Torture is illegal, but murder is legal, i guess.
Of course, that 6-year old on the "No-Fly List" is a clear and present danger to the United States just because he happens to have the same name as some other falsefied name as some other person.
It will be interesting to see how well we stomach "collateral damage" when it's our own citizens.
Der Fuhrer does not want to give up his position???
Maybe this is why they want to ban firearms?
*sigh* - I guess the conspiracies were true. If you voted Obama into office for a second election, you should be ashamed right now, not only for yourself, but all the American's your ignorance has affected.
So the president desires to kill people - This takes away his right to own a gun right? Because its obvious he is bat-@!$%# crazy.
So basically, if they don't need to have proof it's a case of drone first, ask questions later and there's no recourse?
I will share something with you every combat experienced American knows, our own citizens have been in every war, to an extent, "collateral damage." Unfortunately this is known as friendly deaths and greatly feared but expected.
One exception and without any Department of Justice memo Americans were authorized to kill Americans by the tens of thousands, it was call the Civil War. And it was stomached the same as all wars.
Drone strikes authorized against Americans, use of mini-drones to conduct spying operations, banning guns and threatening the existence of the 2nd amendment, the deluge that will occur with obamacare, the insistence of making over 11 million+ illegals citizens who should otherwise be ushered out of our borders, endless warring operations overseas with hints of new conflicts on the way, and teetering on the brink of economic collapse while our national debt soars to heights that stagger the imagination: The mesmerized masses dutifully walked in their sleepened state to the polls and voted for this. And over time the programmed liberal notion of a 'utopian society' will bring in the intended opposite of what it appeared as we become indentured slaves of the machine.
If the government is the people then nothing should be kept from the people, soon protesters will be targeted, they already are by the government henchmen, but who knows maybe drones next, Hitler days are here to stay they claim its for your safety i would rather freedom
For the record, I am against drone strikes on American citizens (or anyone for that matter) without indisputable proof of criminal actions, but lets get two things clear here.
First, these are drone attacks against loosely affiliated American citizens abroad in places such as Yemen. They are not using drone strikes in Indiana, or on US soil.
Second, this is the easily foreseeable consequence of things like the Patriot Act when hastily signed by President Bush and a fearful House and Senate way back at the beginning of the "War on Terror." At that time, the debate was between two trains of thought. Liberals, like myself, were totally and unequivocally against it. Republicans, and especially those on Fox news, were all for it. Remember "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear," and "If you're not with us, you're against us." So, yeah.
We had the opportunity to nip this thing in the bud and stop it before it even began by calling our representatives and telling them to vote "NO" on the Patriot Act when it originally was being debated. Instead, it was widely cheered by many of the pro-war forces who are now seemingly aghast at how those powers are being used and lambasting our government and calling for "impeachment" and making outlandish "Germany 1938" references.
Welcome to the world of our own choosing. To use a catchphrase from the election season, WE BUILT THIS!! Stand up and be proud...
and also for the record, this is most certainly NOT what is being debated at this time. Those trying to inject the gun control debate into this issue are misguided.
The government 'legal' case boils down to: "Hey you...we consider you a threat and we want you dead".
And then they kill you, and whoever else is standing near you at that time. Just like the gangstas in Chicago do it in the hood...
First of all I do not have a problem with Drones being used in Law Enforcement. But I wonder where all the mouthy Libs are on this one. They seem to be silent. Where is Pigotry? Here is the problem. This is why this man should not have been re-elected. When he was elected the first time He pushed that all of the prisoners in Gitmo, who were actively involved in direct violence against the U.S. be given legal rights and tried in the Courts for their crimes. Not Military courts, civilian courts. This was totally unheard of and all of the libs supported him because Bush was the one who put them there and of course Bush only put innocent people in Gitmo. Now he says that if you are an American, who has rights granted by the constitution, involved with the same group that the prisoners in Gitmo did, you can be killed without due process. It looks to me as we have found out who the real enemy of Obama is. It is the US Citizen.
"A confidential Justice Department memo concludes that the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be “senior operational leaders” of al-Qaida or “an associated force” -- even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S."
In short - an assassination, with appropriate vague legalize to hide the truth.
If it was Bush issuing this order, the media would be in an uproar, but since it's Obama, the response will be negligible.
There's no defense or explanation that makes this okay.
Some are saying it will only be used on "terrorists" and won't be abused.
Let me ask you something, has The Patriot Act ever been abused ?
@ Lynn in Wyoming:
@Kornfed:
Their silence is deafening, isn't it?
To the point now that illegals have MORE rights than legal, law abiding American citizens do.
@ DrowningGrover
Ummmmmmm, you forgot to type in the word YET after that sentence. Because we all know it will not be too far of a drive to THAT point, now will it?????
My point is, it doesn't matter which government party or WHAT administration that events like this materialize under, our government NEVER dredges up schemes like this with ANY good intentions. PERIOD.
Open our eyes, will you?
Welcome to the new Orwellian American. Many happy returns.
yes, that would be too far a drive and will not happen.
The difference between using drone strikes in places like Yemen and using them within the US is so startling huge, that I don't think anyone in government would ever even consider it. The public outcry would be deafening, and the supreme court would be all over it.
Drone surveillance is another story as they're already using that on US soil (and at the border). In fact, the same people lashing out against the government for this story are the ones requesting that drones be flown at the border...
Wow I can see all of the conspiracy theorists are all over this one....Why does that not surprise me.
You know what, If the Feds, CIA, President et al didn't want everyone to know about this it would have NEVER became public.
If it was a plot to take any ones rights away you would have NEVER even known that such a program existed.
I mean really, look at all the other things the government has managed to keep a lid on over the years...From J. E. Hoover to current. It's called dark ops / Classified Intel....
What I'm saying is that you wouldn't know it was a take over of you and your rights until to was to late they wouldn't be that overt about it.
The Sky Is Falling....The Sky Is Falling. I wouldn't respond, If I didn't find it so entertaining.
You guys need a decoder ring & code book so you can huddle around spinning tales and quiver together.
I have said all along, THIS MAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE IS DANGEROUS!! And I cannot believe half the people in this country, one, can't see it and two, re-elected him!
The Bush hating liberal Obama supporters were/are all disgusted and indignant because they feel Bush conducted an illegal war against Saddam. Where are they now that Mr. Obama is hiding behind very faulty legal reasoning to justify the indiscriminate killing of American citizens and others, with or without a declaration of war? Notably, Mr. Obama has repeatedly referred to various terrorist acts as "criminal" acts and that the perpetrators will be "brought to justice". Apparently that "justice" includes summary execution by team Obama without any legal process whatsoever and based upon the flimsiest of reasons one can imagine. Go ahead and cry about water boarding all you want, but the truth of the matter is that summary execution is far worse in every conceivable way. Is this the hope and change you Obama supporters were looking for?
What is that pesky thing that the president keeps ignoring. oh yeah the constitution.
This is a perfect example of not caring about oh what pesky amendment is that. oh yeah the 6th amendment in the bill of rights.
While I agree with you to a point, my question would be what is considered a threat? Does the definition include someone who actively spies for an enemy government? Someone who opposes a president, regardless of party? Someone who finds a particular political point of view to be wrong? Someone who robs the 7-11 next to the white house? Someone who speaks against the current government? Someone who makes a video the government feels the need to apologize for? Who decides who is, or is not, a "true American citizen?" What is the definition? Born here? Immigrated here? Loyal to the current regime? Rich? Poor? Race?
It is alarming that this administration and those associated with it would even entertain the question.
While I don't know for a fact where they would go with the answer, I can see this becoming like many of the regimes currently out there and anyone who speaks against whatever administration in place at the time being considered a threat. It's not that far of a stretch and since wisdom is non-existent in Washington, I would not trust them to make the decision.
As to there being a "nation to answer to," that hasn't helped the nations who are under the thumb of a dictator.
And for all of you that think this is prophecy...You should be happy as hell (pardon the pun) this just means your closer to getting to see God.
Why fight it when you know it's going to happen anyway? Sit back.... relax...have a beer.. read the Bible...It won't be long...Right?
We The (USA) have always had laws on the books about treason, and the proscribed sentance for that act is death.
I was wondering where Red and Pigotry and her minions were too. I'm sure they're haunting another page that they're better able to bully people on. This is not something they want to get involved in.
This doesn't surprise me at all. Just like the last administration, this one seems to have an "ends justifies the means" approach to governing.
I'm sure they are both well intentioned (I truly believe that - I'm not being sarcastic), but some of the precedence's set by GWB and Obama are going to haunt this country for a long time if we can't get them officially reversed by the Supreme Court.
Did you (and the rest of you guys) read the entire story?!
I have no Fk'n problem with a drone taking out Americans that are a terrorist organization. Do you?!
If not, I just hope it's you and your family that these homegrown terrorists take out first.
Most of these homegrown terrorists are from Middle Eastern decent. Or convert to Muslim-ism then suddenly go rotten. Fk'n take 'em all out and do the rest of us a favor man.....
For those who do not agree, then you guys must be Muslim...
Sleeper Cells. Just like over their, if you're harboring terrorists over here on US soil, then "BOOM". You meet your maker... not to mention all those Virgins and al you can eat!
This is not a Dem thing or a Rep thing. This is a power thing. It is important to fight against well intentioned laws that can morph into unintended monstrosities. Do I think Pres. Obama would use a broadened definition of "intent" to go after political rivals? No, I do not. Do I think that some President after him may? Yes, I do. The Patriot Act, passed after 9/11 when our common sense was down, has been used far beyond terrorism, because or the erosion of civil liberties in the Patriot Act. As a country, in the 50's we tried Character Assassination based on affiliation - not based on actions. Now we contemplate actual assassination based on affiliation, not actions. And further, affiliation does not even need to be proven.
There are always those who prey on fear and on legitimate danger to get us to give up our freedom in exchange to an elusive sense of safety. They always couch it in a blanket of "reasonableness", yet once signed the law morphs. We must remain vigilant.
Deven Sharma
You are correct. But what most don't realize is that without due process the rest of our rights guaranteed are meaningless. You have no free speech because you don't have regress when it is violated. The government can seize all your property and you can't argue. They could make it illegal to own guns and if found with them, kill you because you are a perceived threat.
Many knew what was included in NDAA but nobody listened when it was passed during the Christmas holiday and the media was all but silent. I just hope that because of their silence, the government goes after freedom of the press next. After all, there is no journalistic integrity any longer anyway.
The worst thing about all this is that this is terrible news and there's no one to talk to about this in real life. My friends won't care, my family won't care, and my co-workers won't care. They may hear about it. Jon Stewart will tell a joke about it and maybe they we will all rage for the appropriate five minutes, then laugh, then accept it as that's just something we do now. Then they'll watch Jersey Shore and talk more about that and say "Cabs are here!" for the next three years.
No one watches the news.
It's not the President. He is just a tool. The people that put him there are the ones we have to worry about. If there is too much resistance to murdering people under suspicion of what ever, then get ready for another 9/11. After that the people of the US will approve anything they want with an overwhelming majority.
Does this mean they can attack the White House? The most imminate threat that the United States has ever had on it's own soil is in the White House now!
mattfromwash
Obama has already used this authority to kill American citizens. If you have no clue because you aren't bothering to pay attention you should probably just keep quiet.
But I thought that after the Obama apology tour everyone would love the United States again? There should be no need for any sort of military or covert action any longer, Obama apologized. Lets all hold hands and sing Kumbaya.
Creek Dog - I have a problem with it when the "terrorist" are Americans. Bring them home, Try them, Fry them. Enough said.
Just imagine for a moment how differently this article would have been written....if George Bush were still President!! Excellent example of the media bias in this country and how far the media is willing to go to continue propping up this President. Think about it....here is an article, attempting to justify our government using the military to kill American Citizens. WOW!! This should be an eye opener to everyone who bothers to read it. Even more incredible are the Leftist Democrats trying to defend it and justify it.
You see, that's what's wrong with our legal system. Bringing them home, try & fry them costs money. A LOT of our tax money.
We take 'em out and there is none of that. An eye for an eye. This will help others to think twice about it.
Enough said...
@ oldomletman -
Bingo. My question is how easy this is going to be turned toward Americans at home? Can a "million man march" on DC be considered a threat and fired on? Like others have said what happens when the missile lands on the house next door to the target? Whoops sorry? Who controls the weapon's discharge? Some guy a thousand miles away or someone on the scene? How do we know the shooter actually knows what's going on? I don't have a problem with a drone used as an aircraft for observations. I don't even have a problem with it being used like a conventional military fighter or bomber. I do have a problem with them being used as assassins. I don't think they are that suited to the job. That's too close, to personal a job to be done looking through a lens 5000 miles away where you can't see and know everything involved with the attempt.
Creek Dog - Defending the Constitution has cost several hundred of thousands of lives, if not millions - I am not now, nor will I ever be, so concerned with money to spit on the honor of the fallen by trashing the constitution the fought so diligently to defend.
If these individuals are such high profile cases - they are surely worth the resources used.
I thought we’d lost our country to the liberal mentality, where spotted owls and convicted murderers are protected yet unborn babies are fair game. Apparently we’ve also completely lost our minds. This is unbelievable – we no longer feel the need to abide by the same human rights we expect other nations to respect.
Sounds like life in Nazi Germany, North Korea, Iran - courts of law are no longer needed or required.
Creek Dog
You are soooo wrong. First of all, I don't have a problem with taking out terrorists. But it should be done in the light of day through transparency.
The true problem is that our rights to due process have been given to one man. These decisions are being made behind closed doors. Who is to determine what is terroristic. IS my arguing this policy going to be perceived as giving aid and comfort, and therefore my posting opposition terroristic. And what if some whack-job, such as the religious right in this country is given the responsibility to determine who lives and dies. This is a slippery slope to fascism.
Simply giving up our rights that have been in place for centuries will make none of us safer. We should not fear our government, they should fear us.
Hi Steve,
You are among the most scariest of posters today. I'm not surprised unfortunately. If a sentence of death was the punishment for the crime of treason then it was a sentence pronounced after a TRIAL. You now just want to skip this one step, as if a trial is meaningless. Who in the government would ever get somethign wrong, let alone lie?
Even worse, you imply that this policy is being made known because the administration wants us all to know just how genuinely good they really are, that nothing here is to fear. That, seriously, if they wanted it would simply remain quiet. Dark ops, you said, you know? A great many problems exist within your thinking, but among the worst is the idea that the constitution is meaningless if we KNOW you are guilty.
Just to be clear because clarity is so important...President Bush was likened by leftists to be no less than a modern version of Adolph Hitler because he had the audacious idea to subject captured terrorists to enhanced interrogation techniques. But President Obama, who has decided that he, and people like him (presidents) can decide to have you killed if he believes you are guilty of siding with our enemy, and leftists liken Mr. Obama to no less than Jesus Christ himself.
Just to be clear. Because clarity is so important.
And you want me and people like me to not fear your various governmental schemes and plans regardless of their extraconstitutional nature? You are either insane, or despotic. There is no other option I can conceive.
This part should be read by itself. It describes the totality of the insanity we face.
Just to be clear because clarity is so important...President Bush was likened by leftists to be no less than a modern version of Adolph Hitler because he had the audacious idea to subject captured terrorists to enhanced interrogation techniques. But President Obama, who has decided that he, and people like him (presidents) can decide to have you killed if he believes you are guilty of siding with our enemy, and leftists liken Mr. Obama to no less than Jesus Christ himself.
Just to be clear. Because clarity is so important.
Rich-281385
Just as I had suspected. Your assumption is that this will be used in the USA.
We have different rules of engagement when on foreign soil where there is no treaty or established government to protect our national interests / safety or we are at war.
If your an American and your working with a terrorist group in another country....Send in the drones.
If your here (in the USA) as we all have seen in the news and your caught plotting an act of terror...You go to jail & trial....Then you are sentenced.
It's a far reach (fiction) to even suggest that these drones would be used inside the US for bombing or killing it's own citizens.
"American citizens if they are believed to be “senior operational leaders” of al-Qaida or “an associated force” -- even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S."
I understand they want Al-Qaida. Having said this, everyone should call their congress person and say no way to this. American citizens earn the right to a fair trial. I really don't think drones should hit a target in the US. Way too many innocent people can be hurt.
Feisty, Pig, where are you? Cat got your tongue, or fingers so to speak?
For the record I have no issues with a drone attack on US citizens abroad WHEN there is indisputable evidence they are aiding and abetting our enemies. This ruling goes way past that, our worst fears are possible under this interpretation.
I guess the only fear would be a disgruntled girlfriend calling the Gov. saying her Ex's house is a terrorist plotting office. BOOM!
Somewhat like a chick who calls into an Airline that there is a man (her Ex) on-board with a bomb just to Fk with him with delays but on a much higher level.
You can call it a legal execution of your Ex....
Okay, these are targets outside the US.
"The white paper also includes a more extensive discussion of why targeted strikes against Americans does not violate constitutional protections afforded American citizens as well as a U.S. law that criminalizes the killing of U.S. nationals overseas."
I wonder how many Americans are joining Al-Qaida?
Steve - you make me cry for American's everywhere.
DEAR IDIOTS WHO THINK THIS IS OKAY
The REASON you don't have laws like this is, even when killing terrorists, is because the past SHOWS the government doesn't just use these laws to kill terrorists, but political opponents as well.
There is a reason you need a WARRANT, (you moron, Cheney, and now Holder, apparently) when you search a criminals place of residence. Or wire tap them. Or do anything that invades their rights as a citizen. Its because in the past, the FBI and other law enforcement agencies use investigation proceedures, EVEN PROCEEDURES ANOTHER CITIZEN could do, to abuse power.
What the idiots aren't understanding is that if a law enforcement agency or the military does something even a normal citizen could do, because of their position of power, they can abuse it.
Of course, nobody can even kill someone as a citizen. Right here we have the grossest exageration of those abuses of power.
Creek Dog,
This is why someone needs to stop this. It can be abused. You have an excellent example.
Steve-3564331
This all stems from NDAA. Have you read it? I have.
It states nothing about only being applicable outside the US borders. Nor does it specify the use of drones. It states that the President has the authority to arrest, detain without due process indefinitely, or kill American citizens if suspected of terrorism. It also states that if suspected, the arrest, detention, or killing will be handled by the military and not the police.
Obama is already preparing for the rebellious and revolting response he will receive in an attempt to advance his agenda of becoming a dictator.
His abuse of power continues to be met with little resistance and it's obvious that Congress, GOP in particular, are unwilling or unable to control the many unpopular decisions being made.
He has divided the parties and is determined to destroy the GOP in order to take control of the House in 2014, which is now controlled by Republicans.
Hillary Clinton, on her departure, said "we're living in a dangerous world today." She should have added that we also live in a world with a dangerous POTUS.
Okay...Here goes
The joint chiefs of staff
Both sides of the National Security Council
Senate & House
The DOD, DOJ, SOS, CIA, FBI
And The president.
They all have to agree (in whole or in part) that the drone will be used before it can be used, and or go threw a chain of command. No one single part can act without the other.
Now how the hell do you get it past all those people & violate any ones constitutional rights without the public hearing about it.
It's called checks & balances within our government for accountability.
Creek Dog
Creek, you want money? Our tax money?
Let’s start here:
Do you think some of that $110 billion would help pay for our court cases?
Hmmmmm, our own CBO tells us how to cut spending but our criminal congress and president can never quite find anywhere or anything to cut.
Yep, our good ole bloated and redundant government sure is efficient isn’t it? Even if we just use the lower amount of $100 billion annually, we can try a lot of cases. Or better yet, how about we just shorten the legal process to a mandatory 3 month, no longer, and get the criminals in jail or executed.
I know, the lawyers won’t make their millions on their 2-3 year long trials. TOO FU**ING BAD!!!!!!
Here’s my favorite one though:
Almost 25% of the coveted social programs that the Libbies promote with their irrational social and economic justice for the collective does NOTHING for the intended population!
AT A COST OF ALMOST $125 BILLION EVERY YEAR!!!!!!!
This is $1.25 TRILLION over 10 years.
It may also interest you that this study by governments own auditors was started under Bush in 2003. When the results were revealed the study mysteriously ended in 2009.
So, anyway Creek, we have PLENTY of money! we have enough money to do whatever we need to do as long as our government admits it's ineffective.
The problem is we have an overgrown, bloated, monolithic, government that is irresponsible, unaccountable and NOT transparent.
It’s time we fix this!
john-737278
Again, look at our laws governing treason.
They already are in many cities in the US. I know of one city that crashed their drone after having it for a few months lol.
Why would anyone think that this invisible line that says you can not arm them exists? It does not exist and it is only left up to the good people in the departments to keep them unarmed.
no one party should control both the house and the senate ever again.
Steve-3564331
Treason must still be proven, and not behind a veiled policy.
This is no different than the directive given that if a plane is headed towards a target in the US that it be taken down.
How many times have we had our air force scramble post 9/11......How many times have we had to down an aircraft?
If an aircraft was to have been downed would you be screaming the same thing?
Terrorists don't play by the rules.....They give less than a @!$%# about your constitutional rights, & so do the Americans that conspire with them.
Steve, your faith that our government is always fair, truthful and always working in our best interests is simply scary. They play on our fears to gain control. It is our obligation as citizens to question and call out our government if necessary.
john-737278
I find it less scary now than it has been in the past when these types of things never made it into the public eye at all.
There are too many people working with in our Government system to let it just fly by with out getting out to the public that there is a violation. All the agencies that I listed...there is a boat load of people that work in those agencies, & your trying to tell me that not one of them would come forward and say that the U.S government is out to get its law abiding citizens?
Really?
After seeing the mud slinging in DC don't think for one minute that if one side or the other saw a political benefit to letting one fly they wouuldn't take it.
Steve -
I disagree. The plane situation is the same as a someone pointing a gun at LEOs. They can shoot first. It's another story when two guys are sitting in a house drinking coffee and a missile lands in their lap because the government believes they are about to finish drinking it and head out to commit a terrorist act. One is an imminent threat the other is not. The rule doesn't seem to preclude being used for the second.
I do consider a US citizen fair game if they are sitting in a terrorist camp - even if they are just drinking coffee and we are targeting the terrorist camp in general, met on the battlefield (Use that term loosely.) bearing arms against our people, wearing the uniform of a know enemy we are at war with.
Wonder what Barry will do if he feels the TeaParty are terrorists? Or anyone else that speaks out against him?
Anyone hanging out with terrorist need killing PERIOD.
Steve-3564331
It took 30 years for the truth to come out about the USS Liberty. They keep things quiet if they want to.
http://www.gtr5.com/evidence/moorer.html
How about this one. Where if we had told France to get out of Vietnam, and helped them forward to democracy that the Vietnam war may not have ever happened.
http://rationalrevolution.net/war/collection_of_letters_by_ho_chi_.htm
Sorry, but I guess I don't and won't have your faith.
its amazing listening to all the right-wing nutjobs screaming about how an "american citizen" was killed, when if a republican was president they would be screaming how the traitorous SOB deserved to die.
bunch of brainless, paranoid delusional jackasses
Dick,
I usually do not agree with you but,
this time I have no choice. Good post.....
john-737278
Your still not getting it....That's okay
Drones used on foreign soil only, & in war or conflict zones only (Which means we have no treaties with these countries & they do not fall under the UN or Geneva Convention).
If your an American in this situation of possibly conspiring with a known enemy & there is imminent threat in another country towards the US, well then you put your self there, no body else did.
Anyone that doesn't find this bit of news to be disturbing is probably naive. There is nothing here that echoes the basic fundamentals of what our country is based upon. It doesn't mater WHERE they would plan to exercise this ability - in another country or here. This is not a heat of the battle decision, this is someone deciding an American citizen is a "risk" and taking them out.
What is the next step? Who decides who is a risk and who isn't? Does a suspected gun runner in Texas present a terrorist risk? This will eventually become a political tool, as it is intended to do. Who trusts politicians?
Steve-3564331
I don't think you are getting it.
This is not about killing terrorists. And I don't know why you are stuck on drones. I agree with stopping terrorism.
This is about the willingness for us to sacrifice our rights to do so. When you sacrifice liberty for freedom, you will have neither.
Screw them. If they are terrorists kill them....don't care where they are from or at.
An American citizen is still an American citizen. Even if he's a terrorist on foreign soil. Once we violate equal protection under the law, what's next? {HINT: think about this happening on US soil...}
So much for "Due Process".
Sorry, Liberty for security
@ Soldier's Dad - Excellent post, Sir! (#1.58)
@Witchking who stated (#1.75):
Unfortunately, they don't really need to cross the 2nd Amendment out of the Constitution, they only need to declare Martial Law - which if you do a Google search on "FEMA Camps," you will find that heavily fortified "holding" camps are all over the country - old train yards, etc...
Soldier's Dad brought up a good point about how Americans do not demand explanation or change from their government - we complain, that's about it. I'm sure many of you read recently about the tragic death of an Indian girl (in India) who died from injuries sustained after she was gang raped. HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE rallied all around India - even when the girl was alive, as soon as the suspects (5) were caught - THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DEMANDED THEY BE PUT TO DEATH - that is not in India's Law,, yet the pressure from the people is enormous and the government is actively trying to give this family and women in general justice.
The US Government decided long ago "what was best" for US citizens. Some of this may surprise you - our education system is NOT set up to educate per se:
Link: http://4brevard.com/choice/Public_Education.htm
Bear with me a second please - what was stated above, a "cradle to grave" education system WAS MADE FEDERAL LAW - under President Clinton.
Link: http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/marc_tucker/marc_tucker_letter.html
WHY did I spend so much time on our National School System -
I believe it has accomplished it's task. People are afraid to march - they could lose their job, you don't talk politics at work - at least not to your boss unless you are positive you both agree 100% on EVERYTHING.... So, we have been trained to sit and listen, and we do that very well from the standpoint of the government.
So when a drone the size of a hummingbird (yes, they have them for US deployment) can listen, kill, follow any citizen - will it be the quiet citizens, no - it will be the citizens who are complaining about the loss of our rights - this whole post is probably in Utah - there is a scanner to see who gets a lot of points and does that person represent the values of this One World government? or is it a possible leader against a One World government?
The White Paper is so unclear - who is a "terrorist" in the eyes of the government? A person who says "the founding fathers are rolling over in their graves?" The holding camps are not for Canadians - so who are they for? Free Thinking can get a bounty on your head...and no one seems to care more than have a discussion on a monitored blog!
Still think there is any difference between puppets Bush and Obama? As usual, Ron Paul is not crazy after all. Now you know just one of the reasons they did everything to silence him.
There are so many paranoid delusionals posting on the forums today, this article seems to be drawing them out like a moth to the flame.
“The condition that an operational leader present an ‘imminent’ threat of violent attack against the United States does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future,” the memo states.
Is it just me or is the current down trend in civil, Constitutional, and personal freedoms a concern to American citizens? When are we going to say enough is enough and elect better representation across the board? Since when has it been a good idea to give up freedom for the illusion of increased safety?
If our government is doing such a great job protecting us how come we have 11 million illegal immigrants spread around the country and yet they want to target citizens as a danger? Since when...since some of us have a difference of opinion? This difference of opinion has been the cornerstone of good governance. The give and take of concepts and ideas until sensible middle ground is found.
We are in danger of losing our way as a country based on freedom for the individual. Just wait until we all see what is inside the ACA and the associated costs...it may well finish breaking the nation financially. Then what?
And yet, the first time an American blows up a train in New York, and someone in the CIA comes forward and says, "We knew Americans were collaborating in Libya, but we couldn't take them out due to their citizenship," what do you think will be said?
When stuff goes down in foreign countries like Pakistan, you can't just walk up and arrest people. Sometimes a drone strike is the only things that makes sense. Now, I've always been against extraordinary rendition, but see, that's the difference between me and most of the folks posting on here. I don't alter my ideology based on whether or not it's "my guy" in the oval office. If Bush were in office still, many of these opinions would be reversed. When Obama finishes his last term, many of these opinions will reverse again. You're just not smart enough to understand yourselves, people.
I'm sure there are all kinds of policies that will likely never have to be used. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be there for extreme "what if" situations. Some of you act like you're so important that the government is going to find YOU, and decide to take you out for no reason.
Hell we were minutes away from shooting down an airliner had it not crashed on 9/11. That was full of innocent people (unless you're a conspiracy theorist). Did people have a problem with that concept, killing dozens of Americans to stop a couple of people from possibly killing more? I don't have a problem with them taking out one person if they're betraying their country and working with a terrorist group.
Besides, like I said you'll likely never ever see such a scenario play out in your lifetime. And what happens when they have such information and don't act and the person ends up orchestrating attack that kills hundreds of people. That information comes out and everyone would call for the presidents head. You're really damned if you do, damned if you don't.
@david-475776 - I hate to tell you, but our government has been "locking people up without trial" for years. I personally know of a case in which it has happened and it was a gross overreach of power. Guess who was President when it happened? None other than Bush Jr. I'm a convervative and I do not like Obama, but I see things for what they are, not what others tell me they are. The original Patriot Act of 2001 was the initial power grab that allowed this incident I described to happen and again, Obama wasn't even in the picture at that time. You even admitted in your post that Bush had "tried" to grab power and was stopped. Stop seeing on the Red and Blue....
Karl Rove should take a close look at the Drones to rid the right wing Tea extremist !!!
Hello folks, Bush gave us preemptive war and Obama has given us remote controlled war (he may not have started it but it is his calling card). The government doesn’t even care to hide their nefarious and illegal policies. Its contemptuousness is in your face with a devil may care hubris. They are so confident that we can’t do thing one to stop it!
Has anyone even looked into the damage this illegal killing technology has inflicted on innocent men, women and children.
These children are innocent. They are not different from our own children.
Their lives were taken away at a very young age as part of a military agenda, which claims to be combating “international terrorism".
Who are the terrorists? Enclosed is a partial list of the children that have been murdered in our name.
The List of Names was compiled by The Bureau of Investigative Journalism
CIA Drone Strikes in Pakistan 2004–2013
Total US strikes: 362
Obama strikes: 310
Total reported killed: 2,629-3,461
Civilians reported killed: 475-891
Children reported killed: 176
Total reported injured: 1,267-1,431
US Covert Action in Yemen 2002–2013
Total confirmed US operations (all): 54-64
Total confirmed US drone strikes: 42-52
Possible extra US operations: 135-157
Possible extra US drone strikes: 77-93
Total reported killed (all): 374-1,112
Total civilians killed (all): 72-177
Children killed (all): 27-37
US Covert Action in Somalia 2007–2013
Total US strikes: 10-23
Total US drone strikes: 3-9
Total reported killed: 58-170
Civilians reported killed: 11-57
Children reported killed: 1-3
Drone Infographics
Interactive map
by Drones Team
This map details the locations of CIA drone strikes in the remote Pakistani tribal areas.
Partial List of Children Killed
PAKISTAN
Name | Age | Gender
Noor Aziz | 8 | male
Abdul Wasit | 17 | male
Noor Syed | 8 | male
Wajid Noor | 9 | male
Syed Wali Shah | 7 | male
Ayeesha | 3 | female
Qari Alamzeb | 14| male
Shoaib | 8 | male
Hayatullah KhaMohammad | 16 | male
Tariq Aziz | 16 | male
Sanaullah Jan | 17 | male
Maezol Khan | 8 | female
Nasir Khan | male
Naeem Khan | male
Naeemullah | male
Mohammad Tahir | 16 | male
Azizul Wahab | 15 | male
Fazal Wahab | 16 | male
Ziauddin | 16 | male
Mohammad Yunus | 16 | male
Fazal Hakim | 19 | male
Ilyas | 13 | male
Sohail | 7 | male
Asadullah | 9 | male
khalilullah | 9 | male
Noor Mohammad | 8 | male
Khalid | 12 | male
Saifullah | 9 | male
Mashooq Jan | 15 | male
Nawab | 17 | male
Sultanat Khan | 16 | male
Ziaur Rahman | 13 | male
Noor Mohammad | 15 | male
Mohammad Yaas Khan | 16 | male
Qari Alamzeb | 14 | male
Ziaur Rahman | 17 | male
Abdullah | 18 | male
Ikramullah Zada | 17 | male
Inayatur Rehman | 16 | male
Shahbuddin | 15 | male
Yahya Khan | 16 |male
Rahatullah |17 | male
Mohammad Salim | 11 | male
Shahjehan | 15 | male
Gul Sher Khan | 15 | male
Bakht Muneer | 14 | male
Numair | 14 | male
Mashooq Khan | 16 | male
Ihsanullah | 16 | male
Luqman | 12 | male
Jannatullah | 13 | male
Ismail | 12 | male
Taseel Khan | 18 | male
Zaheeruddin | 16 | male
Qari Ishaq | 19 | male
Jamshed Khan | 14 | male
Alam Nabi | 11 | male
Qari Abdul Karim | 19 | male
Rahmatullah | 14 | male
Abdus Samad | 17 | male
Siraj | 16 | male
Saeedullah | 17 | male
Abdul Waris | 16 | male
Darvesh | 13 | male
Ameer Said | 15 | male
Shaukat | 14 | male
Inayatur Rahman | 17 | male
Salman | 12 | male
Fazal Wahab | 18 | male
Baacha Rahman | 13 | male
Wali-ur-Rahman | 17 | male
Iftikhar | 17 | male
Inayatullah | 15 | male
Mashooq Khan | 16 | male
Ihsanullah | 16 | male
Luqman | 12 | male
Jannatullah | 13 | male
Ismail | 12 | male
Abdul Waris | 16 | male
Darvesh | 13 | male
Ameer Said | 15 | male
Shaukat | 14 | male
Inayatur Rahman | 17 | male
Adnan | 16 | male
Najibullah | 13 | male
Naeemullah | 17 | male
Hizbullah | 10 | male
Kitab Gul | 12 | male
Wilayat Khan | 11 | male
Zabihullah | 16 | male
Shehzad Gul | 11 | male
Shabir | 15 | male
Qari Sharifullah | 17 | male
Shafiullah | 16 | male
Nimatullah | 14 | male
Shakirullah | 16 | male
Talha | 8 | male
YEMEN
Afrah Ali Mohammed Nasser | 9 | female
Zayda Ali Mohammed Nasser | 7 | female
Hoda Ali Mohammed Nasser | 5 | female
Sheikha Ali Mohammed Nasser | 4 | female
Ibrahim Abdullah Mokbel Salem Louqye | 13 | male
Asmaa Abdullah Mokbel Salem Louqye | 9 | male
Salma Abdullah Mokbel Salem Louqye | 4 | female
Fatima Abdullah Mokbel Salem Louqye | 3 | female
Khadije Ali Mokbel Louqye | 1 | female
Hanaa Ali Mokbel Louqye | 6 | female
Mohammed Ali Mokbel Salem Louqye | 4 | male
Jawass Mokbel Salem Louqye | 15 | female
Maryam Hussein Abdullah Awad | 2 | female
Shafiq Hussein Abdullah Awad | 1 | female
Sheikha Nasser Mahdi Ahmad Bouh | 3 | female
Maha Mohammed Saleh Mohammed | 12 | male
Soumaya Mohammed Saleh Mohammed | 9 | female
Shafika Mohammed Saleh Mohammed | 4 | female
Shafiq Mohammed Saleh Mohammed | 2 | male
Mabrook Mouqbal Al Qadari | 13 | male
Daolah Nasser 10 years | 10 | female
AbedalGhani Mohammed Mabkhout | 12 | male
Abdel- Rahman Anwar al Awlaki | 16 | male
Abdel-Rahman al-Awlaki | 17 | male
Nasser Salim | 19
Hey WE THE PEOPLE, when is enough, enough? All of you who support war and Obama’s drone program are complicit in these children's deaths and their blood is on your hands!
War, what is it good for, absolutely nothing!
Black Kettle, good post and nice to see you back!
I've been looking for you as well.... you have an imposter, but if I don't see "Hello folks," I know it's the imposter that I do not admire - you I admire for your wonderful, timely and sentient posts! Great to see you!
Is it OK if I use your considerable information above in a post? - You will definitely get ALL the credit - it is quite a long and sad list but it needs to be out there - well done!
Hello folks, this goes beyond party lines. We can and need to take back control of and make our constitution legal again. This memo is your call to duty.
When Benjamin Franklin left Independence Hall just after the second drafting he was approached by a woman on the street and she asked what manner of government have you bequeathed us? And Franklin said “a Republic Mam, if you can keep it”. The responsibility of a country is not in the hands of a privileged few. We are strong and we are free from tyranny as long as each one of us remembers his or her duty as a citizen whether it is to report a pot hole at the top of your street or lies at a State of the Union Address or standing up for your Constitutional rights. Speak out ask those questions, demand that truth. Democracy is not a free ride but this is where we live and if we do our job this is where our children will live.
Who will stand and fight for our constitution? You don't have to bear arms you just need to communicate your displeasure to anyone who will listen. The time is not to be silent but to speak out.
Sorry Andy Blackwood, Your car and gasoline threat scenario is not protected speech. If I am an officer and you make those statement you have provided probable cause that a crime is being committed as you drive down the street. I would pull my service weapon and give you an order to stop, confiscate the vehicle and arrest you. Any resistance would be answered with " up to and including lethal force."
No jail, No tax payers money going to waste - that works for me !!!
black kettle- please tell us exactly where these "fema camps" exist- street numbers, gps coordinates. People can still come and go places, so someone must know exactly where they are. I doubt they exist
I don't understand folks who demand they be able to have weapons, so they can kill anyone they perceive as an imminent threat, yet scream when the government wants to protect us. Did you not know that Cheney had authorization to shoot down commercial airlines on 911 over US airspace? Hell, if I were alqueda I would be recruiting Americans left and right. They can go international tv and denounce their country, plan an attack, and there are people here that hate their president so much, that they defend this action.
I agree this needs extreme checks and balances, it can be seriously missused. But it could be missused by a Republican leader as well as a Democrat.
Can you imagine the left's reaction if Nixon or Reagan had done this? Of course on second thought if he did, we wouldn't be dealing with @!$%#s like Ayres, the Clintons, Pelosi, Reid, or Obama today.
THis whole debate is incorrect.
The Founders and Framers were classical liberals who believed in natural rights. Natural rights are unalienable, which means they are not attached to citizenship, but instead are attached to your being a human. Not just citizens have trial rights, search and seizure rights, etc. Dig them up and argue with them, not me.
So the idea it matters whether you are an American citizen or not is incorrect. The idea it matters whether you are here or abroad is incorrect. All citizens or non-citizens, here or abroad, have the same unalienable rights of man. None should be killed without judicial review. Only those on battlefields or actually presenting imminent threat should be killed and not tried first in court (and if captured, they are entitled to no less than a military tribunal, and possibly a civilian trial if they commited a crime like terrorism, not an act of war on behalf of a state - the only exception to the latter falls under Letters of Marque ad Reprisal). Don't give me the practical BS reasons why you oppose this....the Founders would spit in your face for such talk ("it costs to much...waaah").
If killing all terrorists is such a good idea then why aren't we murdering every KKK member who takes a vacation outside the USA (or here at home)? They've killed far more Americans than al-Qaeda ever thought of, and have been a Congressionally declared terrorist organization since the 1860s. Clearly you do not kill bad ideas, you kill bad actors who commit violent acts (or are provably about to). That lowers their ability to recruit, BTW.
And to those arguing this can't happen at home...did you miss the law that declared the USA as a warzone? We are all free game.
The trust the statists here have for their government, whether "left' or "right", is sickening. They are cultists, in the Cult of the State...a nationalist cult which worships the state like a god. The only way you can explain their apologetics, trying to rationalize this BS, is that they cannot believe the state is anything except benign (or worse, beneficient). It's an act of faith (not fact).
The Founders and Framers universally understood the state (the compulsory government) was nothing except a "necessary evil", and that it could never be benign or beneficient. Instead of working hard to make it less necessary in 225+ years, we have slowly convinced ourselves it's necessary in more areas. We have squandered the genius of the Founders and Framers, and turned our back on their insights and intentions. We have embraced and mistaken nationalism for patriotism, and statism for liberty.
If the Founders were alive today they'd both weep and scream in anger at what we've allowed. They'd remind us, even if the state is necessary (which is a matter of debate in this modern day) it is NEVER anything more than a necessary evil. It must be kept small. It must be distrusted at all turns. They'd ask why we haven't in 225+ years innovated any further ways to make formerly necessary aspects of the state unnecessary, given our economic and technological advantages time has handed us.
Shame on us all. Thte traitors are in high office, and in your mirrors.
john-737278
Again, I keep going on about drones because that is the topic contained in the memo.
I keep speaking to those points, to stay on topic and not get carried away with the paranoid rhetoric of they are coming for my_______— (fill in the blank) mentality.
The headline of the story doesn't read "Americans To loose Constitutional rights because of drones.
It calls into question the legality of Americans on foreign soil and their constitutional rights while in a conflict or war zone.....It has nothing to do with those of us that live within the borders of the US & our rights.
Hi Steve,
Other than obfuscation I can't figure out why you assume, wrongly, that I was saying this power would be used inside the USA. I never said it, didn't think it, and don't even imply it. But you are profoundly wrong in every other way as well. This power doesn't need the President, House, Senate, NSA, DOD, and so on, to sign off before a strike can occur. It needs a highly placed (not defined) person within the administration. You are similarly wrong that our constitution has no value to American citizens relative to their government when those citizens are on foreign soil. My travelling to a different nation in no way unshackles my government from obeying the Supreme Law.
You have, with your posts in reply, given me yet more reason to fear you and people like you.
The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government, lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."--Patrick Henry---1736-1799 -- "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."-- Thomas Jefferson
The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater." – Frank Zappa
Where is red head and the other Obama worshipers on this one.
I can see why this Administration don't like the Second Amendment.
The memo stated the only prerequisite is a "high level official" who decides that an American citizen constitutes a threat. An opinion is all thats required.
"Courts play no role in the matter!"
You Obama cultists need to wake up. This isn't about Obama...its about us. What happens when a Conservative President lands in the office again. Do you want any "high level official" Conservative arbitrarily deciding that your a terrorist and sentencing you to death with no due process?
That's what it is...the death penalty...with no court hearing.
God you Liberals are mad. Can't you say no to the Blue pill and look at the long term impact of our leaders talking like this?
I couldnt execute Iraqi's who I knew were guilty... known enemies of the U.S. and were standing their bragging about how many Americans they killed, while in our custody. Why is this ok for our Government to exactly that with American citizens?
So mountainlady since you know so much, who pulled off 9/11? You seem to say Al Qaida or maybe Osama. Doesn't it seem odd that even the FBI did not list Osama as wanted for the 9/11 attacks. In fact there is no proof that he even had anything to do do with it. Who was to benifit most from the attacks? Think about it. Follow the money trail since the attack and see where the money has been going for retaliation. What is the best way to get people to give up rights and freedoms? Well of course make them fear for their lives and make them want to feel safe. We really must have had a really crappy military if a dozen guys and a few planes could outwit the NSA, FBI, CIA Air Force, NORAD and others. Not one military jet even got close to one of those airliners. Who called them off or are we to believe that they were confused because they actually happened to be having war games about an attack on US soil where hyjackers ran jets into NY and DC buildings. They had actually ran training on this several times
It was said many times that the Gov needed another Pearl Harbor so they could have a crisis.
Listen I don't claim to know what happened but I don't buy the NIST report or what the Government claims
Lori - I completely agree with your statement:
Yes, I knew that the plane in PA could have been shot down.
FEMA Camps: This article (very long) was to dispel the camps, but it couldn't after investigation (legal docs from Washington) ....I only included the last paragraph
Link: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/01/new_nationwide_fema_camps_should_raise_eyebrows.html
Simply Google: FEMA CAMPS, or Images of FEMA Camps
or read,
http://www.scribd.com/doc/114406717/The-Locations-of-FEMA-Concentration-Camps-in-America
This lists over 800 in US - in each state, and their designation (capacity, etc.)
Cont. from #1.229
...Keep in mind we had to release 70% of these insurgents back onto the streets of Baghdad in less than a week due to legal loopholes.
Rich-281385
It calls into question the legality of Americans on foreign soil and their constitutional rights while in a conflict or war zone.....It has nothing to do with those of us that live within the borders of the US & our rights.
Please note the part that says while in a CONFLICT OR WAR ZONE.
If it was not the one(s) that I had mentioned or alluded to then who else? Bugs Bunny?
Give me a break.
So Steve
You have actually read all of the guidelines for drone attacks? Does it actually say that they can not attack Americans on US soil? Does it say they can't just grab you lock you up and not charge you? You say it is only for Americans that are in a conflict or war zone, well with the War on Terror, War on Drugs and others that covers just about everywhere.
Some how I feel that if your family was wiped out because they were in say Eqypt doing business that you may have a problem with that. Now please see that I used the words may and such as for all I know you may not give two craps about anybody but yourself
Well that would be Obama of course. Just like it's all right with him that dozens or more kids have been killed in these attacks along with atleast one of them being an American. His crime was having the wrong father
So, it's come to this. Just because they " believe" someone's implicated they can blast them with a drone. That's messed up.
@ Steve
It calls into question the legality of Americans on foreign soil and their constitutional rights while in a conflict or war zone.
Americans rights do not stop while in a war zone Steve. What happened to the SSG who rolled grenades into a tent at the onset of the Iraqi war? He was detained, not executed.
Even in combat we have rules. Just because local insurgents were actively attacking us in Baghdad didnt mean we could go into Sadr City and execute Al Sadr himself.
Even enemy combatants have rights. We hunted terrorists down...captured many and brought them back to Cuba to prep them for court hearings. How can we not do this for our own citizens?
The intent on the raid at Osama Bin Ladens compound was to capture if possible. His own actions, according to Navy Seals, is was got him shot. It wasnt an execution. He was the worlds #1 Terrorist. How can we not do this for our own citizens?
Youre sadly out of your depth.
Creek Dog
Well if it just boils down to saving a few bucks why not t just toss the whole system out and not bother giving anyone a trial for anything?? Just think of all the money we'd save that way.
Okay...So what the hell would an American be doing in a conflict or war zone near a target of a drone? If they are military or they are on US official business, that's one thing, we know why they are there & more importantly where they are.
The Intel gathered while Surveillance is being done to place a drone strike looks at how to minimize casualties, while going after the target. Its not just some random drone strike....Get real.
The suggestion that you think it is an act of just one person,
also shows your lack of understanding of how the system works, and what it takes to have a drone strike.
You screamers are the same ones that piss and moan about anything this administration does...According to you there is nothing that can be done right....even if you agreed with it, you'd still say it was wrong. Grow up.
If the Republicans saw any hint of wrong doing here they would climb all over this like the flies on elephant dung they are.
The entire USA is legally a war zone...read the NDAA. And all young males (not just adults) are pre-considered combatants in a war zone, as per U.S policy. Read about the kids we killed in Afghanistan who were collecting dung to heat their home.
You're a brainwashed fool for making all these excuses for this policy.
Did all you right wing supremacists who are planning another civil/race/political/class war just now realize you just might hit a little speed bump on your way to the grand fascist plan?
Wingnuts on the same page as Diane Feinstein and the ACLU.....priceless
It's evident where the paranoid delusion exists. You want transparency, You got it!
@ G. Bud
It's no speed bump for the Grand Socialist's plan though is it?
When American lives are at stake, Presidents have always been willing to use every means available to protect them. Lincoln and habeas corpus, FDR and internment, Truman and the bomb, Johnson and Cambodia, it's all the same. The philosophical arguments here are one thing, but is anybody complaining about the practical application to Anwar al-Awlaki?
As far as I'm concerned, if you join the enemy army, the due process you're going to get is coming out of the barrel of a gun. Remember that virtually everyone killed by the Union army in the Civil War was a U.S. citizen. On 9/11, we didn't chose a non-state, non-uniformed enemy. It chose us. And al-Awlaki chose them.
Police and even citizens are authorized to dispense final due process to U.S. citizens from the end of a gun when they make the on-the-spot decisions that the citizen is an imminent threat of serious harm to someone. The difference here, as Rachel Maddow points out, is the definition if "imminent," but I urge you to read the section of the memo that deals with this.
If the president didn't take this position, you can bet the outcry would be loud and long.
Were there U.S. citizens in Dresden or Hiroshima? Almost certainly there were. "Oh wait, commander, we have to call the prosecutors."
If you think this particular power is beyond the pale, then either you haven't actually read the memo or don't understand the practical pressure on a U.S. president.
Joe Scarborough is right, this is one nasty slippery slope we find ourselves out on. But what we have in this country that Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany didn't have is a vibrant and independent free press. Every time a president takes one of these actions, it stirs up controversy and debate. That has kept us from sliding all the way down the slope. And as I have said before, coming from a military family, I believe that our military would not allow us to slide too far down, either.
Yes, it's troubling. But it is war. And so far it's been used against a U.S. citizen who openly declared war on us and joined the leadership of an armed enemy.
I think I'll pick a better spot to cry wolf.
ProIndividual-3906907
Et al
You guys are the ones they would come after first if anything came down around you. Your posts are right on the edge of treason, terroristic, calling to take up arms, & paranoid.
Stop living in the delusion & fantasy of some movie and try and understand the real world.
Also if your so damn good at policy...Don't just sit on your ass behind a computer...Get out there and run for office......Those that can, do.....Those that can't become critics.
Thank you Mr. Isikoff.
Steve, you are truly a fool. If you cannot see the dangers of such a policy... then there is only one explanation, foolishness.
Steve -
Experts opinion:
“If you believe the president has the power to order U.S. citizens executed far from any battlefield with no charges or trial, then it’s truly hard to conceive of any asserted power you would find objectionable,”
I thought it was only be to used in combat zones?
Steve-3564331
Inside information or just speculation??? Because the grandfather of the 16 year old American boy would probably disagree. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/24/robert-gibbs-anwar-al-awlaki_n_2012438.html
And let me ask those who approve a question- Why stop there? Just think of all of the innocent lives and money that could be saved if we allowed cops to execute anyone wearing gang colors or displaying gang signs. Does that sound unreasonable to you?? More importantly, will it seem unreasonable to people 20, 40, 80 years from now?
Slippery or not what potentially lies at the bottom of some slopes should be avoided at all cost.
Steve-3564331
So, I am a terrorist for disagreeing with government policy? I prefer to believe that it is a patriotic view that I am dispensing falling back on the constitution for clarity. We may not agree, but for now we both have that right. This, in my opinion, has little to do with the President. It has to do with Congress giving to the President rights that were not theirs to give. They also took an oath to uphold the Constitution.
As far as the world we live in. In the weeks that followed the signing of NDAA and the Presidents signing statement countries around the world condemned the US policy of not respecting international law of due process. Even our allies came out sharply against it. And in the US, hardly a peep. Even countries that would be considered third world spoke up. The real world is when we respect no human rights to the extent that WWIII will be the world against the US. That is not treason, that is a forecast unless we mend our ways of making enemies.
Black Kettle, yes I have no problem with anyone disseminating anything I post. We need to wake people from the induced indoctrination you so clearly and articulately outlined in your 1.208 post.
lol..... I knew my last statements would send the piss ants scrambling to retort. Go figure.
Hey here's one for ya...There are only some 700 posts on the same subject under the heading:
Experts fear drone memo implications
You might want to hop over there and see if any of your buds need help with the conspiracy theory & paranoia.
Thank you for the complement TrustVerify but I did a lot of cutting and pasting - I just knew the information existed. I believe it was accidentally brought to my attention when I read a list of Mencken quotes - many that I would not put on this forum but I saw this and it seems to ring true: (yes, I know he is not popular)
It made me think of President Obama's Nobel Peace Prize - many people are calling for him to return it (in the foreign press at least) - I do not think Red or Blue matter anymore, we can call the government Purple (or Fuchsia) from now on if we want, things have been in motion longer than I have been alive (I will NOT live to see my age double - statistically speaking) ... it is the incremental steps that some posters have said - but not enough posters have understood... we've discussed in a way, the Final Agenda on other posts with some knowledge of what that will mean, but there are so many other factors - even things like the severe drought in this country's "food" belt... let alone the rest of the world and their needs. All these things cannot be worked on piecemeal - yet that is what we are taught to do. Make a list from MOST important to LEAST and start on it....that just is not going to work and we really do not know the wheels set in motion behind the curtain. DOMA? Abortion? They are distractions from what the West does globally....and Americans are easily distracted - it's how we were taught to be.
google Carnivore or NarusInsight
@formersoldier 1.120 That law was written in, February 2012. H.R.347 is written about at: snopes.com/politics/crime/restricted.asp , which is a non-partisan fact checking site So much for the 1st amendment and the right to express ones views!
@ wildbill Just what the NSA will be using in Bluffdale Utah at their site!
Let's see.. it's the Democrats shining the light on this issue, The white house makes it transparent. Diane Feinstein and the ACLU question the scope. The discussion is open for business, Do you have a problem with our socialized military organization? Should it be a fascist organization or privatized so not to be judged under the constitution?
Wow. My reaction may be premature because I haven't read the entire memo but I don't think I like this. Bush. Cheney, et al opened a dangerous Pandora's Box but I can't help but wish President Obama had slammed it shut. I am a pacifist - always have been. I do not believe that this ruling, means imminent drone attacks on david475776 and the rest of the crazy conspiracy theorists on this vine (even though I think they wish something like this would happen so they could say - "told you so") but I don't think this garners any points for us on the international stage.
Black Kettle: Enjoyed the reads!
Better to have the complete facts than the made-up crap from the zombie sheeple like
(Brokeback)Steve, Feisty(Elmer)Fuddhead, and the like. To those of us who have been paying attention, this report is old news. Instead of either whining or making fun of those in the know, they might want to take some time to actually look at what is being talked about. But then again, they love the pablum being spoon fed to them by the talking head puppets of the elites.G. Bud
So do you always just make @!$%# up when it suits your argument because I don't see where it said anything abut democrats or the WH making this available to any one? "A source with access to the white paper, which is not classified, provided a copy to NBC News." The only mention of the administration made it PERFECTLY clear that this was to remain secret.
Frankly anyone who just assumes the WH let this out intentionally is an idiot to say the least. This administration is easily the least transparent in history and has gone after whistle-blowers like no other. You should seriously consider checking that Kool-Aid you're drinking because it may be spiked with something.
Steve-3564331
People in this country have a long standing tradition of picking and choosing whom certain rights should apply to or not. I would have expected you to be a little less glib about other peoples rights being trampled on considering yours have for pretty much your entire life. Frankly, it's disappointing to say the least.
Why is this happening?
Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears. Sorry for borrowing from Shakespeare, but I could not help myself. What we should be discussing here on this Vine are (A) the implications of this policy and (B) the rationale behind it. All I'm hearing (from both sides, to any fellow liberal or conservative who dare calls me partisan) is the same anti-government and party-worshiping bull@!$%# over and over again.
Now let me state who I am to those who do not know me on this Vine. I am an unabashed liberal, somewhat of a social democrat/democratic socialist (like the George Orwell some of you are referring to), a Democrat, and a strong supporter of President Obama and most government policies. I am also a bit of a skeptic when it comes to some conspiracy theories, including the idea that the government passed the Patriot Act in order to erode our freedoms. I tend to believe that the Patriot Act, while excessively obtrusive and anti-American, was inspired by the fact that we were attacked and people demanded change. Everybody demanded change, and this is what we got for it. Now we must realize how lightly we must tread when it comes to demanding change.
In addition, let me state that I despise the Patriot Act, the NDAA, and any possible proposal of using armed drones on U.S soil. I would also be hesitant to allow the use of surveillance drones on US soil, as we already have security cameras and satellites that ought to do the job (anybody say GPS?). And I criticize Obama for signing the Patriot Act into law along with the NDAA, although I will admit that he did use a statement to disagree with some of the provisions. But these laws were created because America has felt isolated from the world ever since 9/11. Example: we questioned why anyone would hate us, much less attack us in the manner that occurred on that sunny September morning. These laws are the byproduct of a much larger transgression on the part of our government, one that started after the fiasco that was the Vietnam War and grew like a cancerous tumor. I'm talking about our foreign policy, people.
Over the past few decades, America has enacted an increasingly aggressive foreign policy (nurtured by neoconservative principles) to "reinforce" our supremacy in the world, even though the true test of supremacy is when a country can enforce its will without armed force. This and the subsequent buildup of defense spending has turned America, in the eyes of the generations born after Vietnam, into the new imperialistic empire. We have essentially become the same imperialistic power that we sought to free ourselves from in the Revolution and sought to free others from in World War II. We have turned the military-industrial-complex from a necessary evil developed thanks to the inevitable "progress" in weapons technology into a powerful lobby that prevents us from making tough choices here and abroad. In short, we have become the modern imperialistic power. In order to eliminate unconstitutional laws like the Patriot Act and NDAA, we must eliminate the need for them, ergo we must stop being an imperialistic nation and start helping other nations instead of leeching off of them.
ProIndividual, what you fail to understand is that government is and forever will be necessary. Now, I know that you were trying to make the point that we should be making it less necessary, but that is nothing more than pure idealism. Humans, while naturally good, are imperfect and are bound to mess up, sometimes a little bit, sometimes a lot. That's why we have rules like "do not kill" and such to keep order in society. Unfortunately, humans won't obey rules that aren't enforced, so we have a government to act as the enforcing authority (just like a teacher in the classroom). And as society has progressed over these 225 years since America was created, we have made significant progress. We established universal suffrage, freed the slaves, and developed a more equitable tax system. We also invented the car, the airplane, and the Internet. But with every new innovation comes the risk of it being manipulated for selfish gain; therefore, the government advances along with society in order to restrain it from going out of control, and we in society maintain our restrain via democratic elections and education. In addition, we have a problem in America (and elsewhere in the industrialized world) that our capitalist system takes advantage of every loophole and focuses on short-term gain instead of long-term sustainable. That culminated into the Great Recession of '08 and '09. The failure of Reaganomics as an economic philosophy proved that government is beneficial, since it saved us from calamity (then again, it also created the problem by deregulating the economy in the first place). When we deregulated the economy and began focusing on bank bailouts to prop up our financial system we made greed and fraud acceptable in the economy. We essentially let the free market run wild until it almost died, taking with it the entire world. You think that society can function well with a small government, but the recent Recession proves otherwise. The free market is imperfect, as imperfect as government itself, and so we must have a government to regulate it. Without one, we cannot have the other.
Nothing made up here... This a pretty accurate assessment though the hypocrites on the right will do anything for canon fodder and don't believe in facts or responsibility.
Does anyone really doubt that Obama is the "LAWLESS ONE"?
He's likened unto the murderer CAIN...
The Memo
G. Bud
Per your link- "And earlier this week, a group of 11 Democratic and Republican senators urged President Barack Obama to release a classified Justice Department legal opinion justifying when U.S. counterterror missions, including drone strikes, can be used to kill American citizens abroad.
Without those documents, it's impossible for Congress and the public to decide "whether this authority has been properly defined, and whether the president's power to deliberately kill Americans is subject to appropriate limitations and safeguards," the senators wrote.
It was a repeated request after receiving last June an unclassified Justice Department memo, which fell short of giving the senators all the information they requested.
First detailed publicly by NBC News late Monday, the memo for the first time outlines the Obama administration's decision to kill al-Qaida terror suspects without any evidence that specific and imminent plots are being planned against the United States."
Your own source makes it perfectly clear that the WH intends to keep their exact policy a secret. The article here states that this memo was not to be discussed publicly. So if you're not making @!$%# up how exactly is it that you come to the conclusion that the democrats released this and that the WH is being "transparent"??? Sounds to me like you are full of @!$%# and you know it.
Is a hypocrite really any worse than a liar?? I guess you must think so.
Project much? This is just the beginning not the end. Who's lying? The justification will be determined.
G. Bud
Unless you've got a source to back up these claims it's pretty obvious that you are.
You don't read much do you. I gave you the sources, sorry you don't like facts. Flip flop away!
This all sounds very ominous to me. It is the vagueness that bothers me most. When one thinks in the context of Al Quaida and using the drones "over there," it does not sound unreasonable in terms of war: BUT it is what this precedent will be used for down the road. It will happen when "terrorist" is defined to be American citizens right here on this soil who don't agree with a particular president, etc. The definitions are so loose that that is likely. And to say no intelligence required...why not? That is what the CIA does, and they should do it before even considering doing anything to anybody. We just can't go about guessing and be the country that can't shoot straight, mistaking little old ladies for terrorists. Get real.
Colonel K, I think your wrong about sun setting the T.S.A. and Homeland Security. This is best defined as a protracted guerilla war. Review the 1993 Truck bombing of the W.T.C. Towers and the determined 2nd assault 8 years later.
@ Spiddas
Who stated:
I couldn't agree with you more - yet I still find it astounding at how many people either don't believe it or refuse to research it themselves and have a very poor understanding of what is in motion...I believe it was Hitler's propagandist (Goebbels) that stated, “The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it.” So you tell a country of citizens which have been trained to sit and listen and not ask questions - that there are "terror threats everywhere, etc.." Guess what you get, a country that thinks it is under a constant outside threat, that only the inside government can fix - and that fix may mean you have no rights, freedom or liberty anymore - but as long as the TV will turn on, we'll sit and listen.
This next quote may not really apply, but before I went to bed, I was thinking of this blog last night and I remembered an old Janis Joplin song (Me & Bobby McGee), where she sings:
"Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose [...]"
Black Kettle & Sand Creek...lest we forget
Implementation of Agenda 21 signed on to by 178 nations.
G. Bud
What the @!$%# are you talking about?? I read your sources and even quoted one above NO WHERE does it say this was released by the democrats or the White House. And btw, YOUR source makes it perfectly clear that this memo is NOT the official policy which is still classified. So where exactly is the transparency???
I don't need to "flip-flop" because I still think you are full of @!$%#. You just make assumptions that fit your preconceived notions and then repeat them as if they are actual fact. Which I suppose, in your mind, they have magically become.
I am heartened that a few of the liberal posters on this subject fear the direction this country is going. But dang, to read Steve (the liberal one), or G. Bud, among other leftists, is a scary proposition. Not so much because they support the killing of American citizens without due process of law--as bad as that is--but because they are in every case deferential or obsequious to the current government.
Mr. Bush was REVILED by these same leftists for capturing terrorists and imprisoning them in Gitmo or sending them off to a foreign hell hole for interrogation. But when Mr. Obama essentially stops capturing terrorists--citizens or not--and pursues a policy of simply killing them it isn't just good, it's great and wise. I thought Mr. Bush should've used Congress to decide the policy, and so to the extent that Mr. Obama is being forced into allowing Congress to take a look at this policy I am happy, but with so many leftists aboard a policy of openly abrogating the consitutitonal rights of a US citizen it's hard to see how the administration will pull back, even if Congress says to.
Specifically to Steve...you are dangerous sir. You assert there are so many people who will be involved in these decisions, but the memo makes it clear that a highly placed official in the administration will make the decision. There needs to be no exigency. There needs to be no conflict or war zone. In fact, the attack in Yemen which killed al-Awlaki (a despicable person to be sure) and his son and another boy, occurred without it being in a war zone or conflict.
Funny, in the saddest of ways, that Jay Carney upon being asked about the son being killed remarked that he should've had a better father. And while I would prefer that his son be killed rather than some innocent person in the USA, that doesn't change the duty of the government to follow the constitution. Without due process of law, or being engaged in actual combat, or refusing to be arrested without violence, al-Awlaki--despicable a human being as he was--had a constitutional right that was violated.
Who do you want to care if and when the government violates your constitutional rights? I suggest you do not turn to the people here warning you of the fire you are playing with.
(Let me complete this sentence for you)
,,,, then if they are in a non-combative situation on American soil, let them be captured,
(my god, they can send a ticket to your house before you even run the red light - should be easy enough to find the bad guys, right?)
tried by a jury of their peers, as warranted by the law of the land, convicted, and found guilty.
This is still America, right? What am I missing here?
We have some sick individuals running this show.
Oh, I see it is OK for Anwar al-Awlaki to order Major Nidal Hasan to kill 13 American soldiers and a few dozen injured, or to train others to attempt to bomb US passenger planes, but we should just let them go until they can be captured for trial? And I suppose all of you folks have suddenly forgotten two very large buildings impoding on a fine beautiful day in September? Gimme a break, we are talking about going after people who are overseas who intend to hurt my family and yours back here....Is that alright with you folks, or is it that President Obama has and had the powers to exercise this strategy?
There is a deadline for fiscal cliff, they pay that bill late. They did not have sexual relations with that woman, oh wait, They did. Read my lips, no new taxes, well guess what... And we are supposed to be ok with these same types of deluted, egocentric morons making a "judgement call" on bombing civilians? I can't trust our elected officials to walk into the corresponding restroom, yet they can decide which American citizens they are allowed to bomb with a remote controlled plane? And they want us to disarm ourselves in the meantime? Who is our government REALLY fighting here...
First of all I'm surprised that NBC reported this. And, they used really big font on the word EXCLUSIVE. Secondly, why are any of you people surprised by this? Seems to me we've been telling you this was gonna happen for the last um, I don't know, four or five years.
are you people inherently uneducated and just plain mentally OBSTINATE? We are NOT talking about casual tourists who just happen to be anti-gummint and visiting Yemen/ Afghanistan/ Iraq/ Syria/ Lebanon (whereever - some places in Africa would also qualify)
These folks are counting on their "US citizenship - ON PAPER" to shield them from any attempt at arrest by the US GOVERNMENT (whether thru military means or "other" potentially successful activities). I'm SORRY - you take up arms against the US and you are DEAD MEAT. Treason? of course. That's simple enough. Somebody makes the determination that your continued existence is potentially hazardous to OTHERS in the US; determines whether it is POSSIBLE to capture you without undue loss of life, and ultimately gives to "terminate with extreme prejudice" order.
Life's a BITCH and then you DIE. you made your bed - now LIE IN IT.
Sympathy? NONE - none required.
This was LONG suspected as being the POLICY - NOW it's confirmed. NOW, any treasonous 'Murcun will go to ground. When they are eliminated, I CERTAINLY won't be shedding any tears.
Put a fork in it
While I understand your anger towards the nations, extremists, terrorist, or CIVILIANS, that intend to harm us as a nation, I do not think this is wise. Reason being, they are discussing doing it with more BOMBS. We cannot have 30 round magazines, but they can bomb OUR cities, OUR neighborhoods, OUR block. Does this not defeat the purpose of the billions of dollars we have spent for centralized intelligence? Combat bombs with more bombs? Here? Our homeland? This is not why some go abroad to make sure it DOES NOT happen here...
Redhead, this started under the Bush administration with the Dept. of Homeland Security and Obama nor the Democrats have lifted a finger to dismantle this overreaching authority granted to the Federal Government. In fact they voted to renew it.
As a dem, this is one of my biggest criticisms of the Obama administration.
We may be talking about "terrorists" now but what about in a year...what if this gun thing goes south and anyone who supports the 2nd ammendment a "terrorist". We already have apache helicopters flying around in major cities, the HS buying tons of ammo. What do you think they're gearing up for? An invasion? oh come on.....They're already copying everything we write here!
Patrik-
No, its not alright. We should invite them to have lunch at the pentagon after they succeed!
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Blotter/al-qaeda-cleric-awlaki-invited-pentagon-911/story?id=11935006
Face it; this is the kind of intelligence we've come to expect. The US gov't is so mixed up and incomprehensible when it comes to this topic that it comes off as dumb as a bag of hammers. Then it tries to give itself authority to fish with dynamite.
Once Obama and New York's Governor take away the 2nd. Amendment and ban civilian ownership of firearms...
It's ALL OVER in this country ALL HAIL BIG BROTHER
@RTypo and @Redhead- I hate to agree with RTypo, but he/she is right. The Patriot Act was the beginning of this power grab by our federal government and was initiated by the Republican party in 2001. The writ of habeas corpus was virtually destroyed with the passage of this law. Obama extended this law and actually added new provisions to it which made it even worse for the infringment of our rights. It's time to stop seeing everything in Red and Blue...our federal governement no longer respresents any of us.
Gold digger http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PODXNPzQ2ZM
I guess before we launch a drone attack on a group of Al Queda terrorists we ought to send over a guy to chec their citizenship first?
Might tip them off that we were going to attack but hey
sick of politics, you are right. He who gives up freedom for sewcurtity deserves neither. Bush started this, Obama ramped it up. he has taken every Bush policy and made it 10X worse.
" I see it is OK for Anwar al-Awlaki to order Major Nidal Hasan to kill 13 American soldiers and a few dozen injured, or to train others to attempt to bomb US passenger planes, but we should just let them go until they can be captured for trial?"
========================
yes, that is exactly how it works. what part of ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL do you not understand? EVERYONE has rights, not just the people you want to have rights. it is for no man, woman, or government to dictate who is allowed to have rights and who is not.
========================
"I guess before we launch a drone attack on a group of Al Queda terrorists we ought to send over a guy to chec their citizenship first?"
========================
they were specifically targeted, they were known to be US citizens before their execution was ordered
@vol fan - I agree with you....and there are a great many things to be learned by the framers of our Constitution. I appreciate that Ben Franklin quote as well...
So how come all you doom and gloom people who "warned us" said nothing about the secret prisons of your boy bush?
So you think the president needs special permission to kill traitors in enemy territory? So if that American soldier who threw a grande into his commander's tent and killed him and others, had ran away and tried to hide in Iran, you would say the president should not use deadly force to get him? even in the form of a drone? why? you guys called for the death penalty when it happened. now you want to save the terrorists? make up your simple minds. PLEASE.
this situational info does not pertain to domestic soil or soil of allies. get a grip. the world is not going to end. Obama is not going to become a dictator, the liberals are not going to take away your guns, we are not going to force your kids to turn gay, we are not going to force abortions on you etc. your fear mongering cost you two elections and will cost you more elections.
you know why Karl rove was in denial election eve? because his brain could not fathom that Obama could win with all the cheating that was going on. The numbers where so far in favor of Obama that the cheats didn't work like they did in 2000 and 2004. America is wise to you guys. NEVER AGAIN.
Give me liberty, or give me internet porn. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRc9rNDZOCE&NR=1&feature=endscreen
I'm not sure what alarms me the most... that the government now so openly says "we'll kill whoever we want, and we don't have to answer why", OR that the ACLU is fighting against this OR that MSNBC reported it without spinning it to try to make it look good, OR that all the reasonable people here have dropped their divisive fences and realized that we're heading in to some deep trouble and need to pull together. Seems like many of us are starting to wake up and realize that it's "us" against "them"...not "us" divided into left and right. Now the real question is if we can organize and do something about it before the internet and cell phones, etc. are all shut down "for our own good". The next step I would imagine is to try to take away our ability to communicate quickly and efficiently. And now that I've talked about organizing against the government.... I won't be surprised to find a drone outside my window tonight.
Smart people have been saying crap like this was going to happen not just for the last 4 or 5 years, but rather since Oct. 26th, 2001 when the Patriot Act was signed....
I agree wholeheartedly. People at the top levels of government, and especially those running the military wing and our intelligence communities do not absolve such outlandish granted power easily. Stories like this were EASILY FORESEEABLE way back when the Patriot Act was inked.
But just remember, "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear."
George Johnpaul;
Obviously you are a Bush basher. Bush had the prisons and your man gave all of those people rights to a fair "Civilian" trial. I do not have a problem with an American Civilian or Military who is consorting with the enemy given the same "rights" that Bush was giving the enemy. I do see a problem when Obama says that all of those people Should be given fair Civilian trials but if you are an American we just kill you with a drone. We do not have those messy trials to deal with.
WAY TO BREAK THE NEWS A YEAR AFTER THE FACT MSNBC!!!!
Everything in this article comes from the NDAA of 2012, which was then voted and passed again for 2013 less than a month ago. You'd have a hard time finding much more than a peep from MSM over the last year about this. For people who inform themselves, there is nothing new in this article.
If you support these kinds of laws, because you support killing, "Americans that would do us harm," just remember that there is never a trial, never a judge and never a jury, so whether or not the Americans killed by their government ever had or ever would do this country harm is completely at the discretion of the killer. In other words, this law and so many others like it passed over the last decade, is the freedom to kill with impunity. No courts, no judges, no evidence (the evidence of course is a matter of national security and can never be revealed)....sound good to you?
Anyone wondering now why all of those 'gun nuts,' are in an uproar? Obama is simply expanding upon Bush policies, who was expanding upon Clinton policies, who was expanding upon Bush and Reagan policies....
We have been leading up to this for forty years!
Two great me said I love my country but I FEAR MY GOVERNMENT ( John Wayne and Ronald Reagan) I also have to joined them in there saying, it all go back to the Children of the Corn Woodstock 69
I just wanted to emphasize the last line...I find party zealots of any kind disturbing, and it amazes me that they my hard Dem/Rep friends always support their party - even in cases like this. When the "other party" takes this type of action they generally get upset...but if it's "their party" they suddenly think it's a great idea.
I think what happens is they say "the current president would never abuse X power", so they are ok with these actions...but they don't think about the long-term precedent being set and what's going to happen when we get a new president...
People wonder how some of history's worst ever rose to power. Well in almost every case, it was to the cheering and raucous applause of supporting crowds. People don't seem to learn much from history any longer.
Not just Homeland Security is buying tons of ammo. Last year, the Department of Social Security Administration purchased hundreds of thousands of rounds of hollow-point ammunition. Why the hell would the Social Security Administration need round designed exclusively to penitrate body armor? Do they often take on violent and well armed criminals directly?
Rtypo,
You have it right. Now is the time to express our concerns. This can be abused. It doesn’t matter Red, BLUE or just independent. Call your congress person.
The SSA purchased 174,000 rounds of ammo to be exact, and it's for "duty carry" purposes. You can see a spreadsheet of where the ammo was intended to go at the link below, and yes, seeing as how the SSA cooperates with everyday law enforcement going after criminals linked to waste and fraud, some of their agents do encounter violent and armed criminals.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ssabullets.asp
Why are so many people on these message boards actively LOOKING for crazy conspiracy links around every corner and in every nook and cranny. Get a grip people!
@Ron-1861300 - I'm glad to see that others get it....
@DrowningGrover who stated:
While I agree with your statement, it is a bit simplistic...if I want to build a fence, I have to apply for a permit, meet the Zoning Regs, etc. What if the Zoning Regulations stated only: If we (whom you cannot directly call or write and get the actual person) don't like the look of your fence it will be destroyed and you will be billed for it's destruction?"
I would not build a fence - the regulations are arbitrary (in that scenario) and there are NO DEFINITIONS of what type of fence I can build.
When "imminent" no longer means "imminent," - (as the US Judge stated), how do you know if you are doing something wrong?
My best friend has recently become an American citizen - he loves this country. He is getting married this summer in Ethiopia - I want to go....if the State Department allows it, I see no problem, but what if they change their mind and HS decides that NO REAL AMERICAN would vacation in Ethiopia for their friend's wedding?
Actually I think Ronnie Reagan started it with the unwarranted seizure and search of our urine.
put a fork in it
...YET!!
People keep going around and around with the Patriot Act, Bush, and Obama, but no mention that Joe Biden had an integral part in writing it......before 9-11. And where is Biden now?
Being an american citizen isn't what it used to be.
Especially if you leave the country and take a leadership role with a terrorist organization bent on killing as many Americans as possible. Drop a hellfire on the treasonous fools no matter where they hide.
People we need to open each other's eyes on what is going on. Our rights are being slowly taken away inch by inch. If you don't watch out those inches quickly add up to feet.
John
What if they are hiding in the house next door to you and your family? Or mine? What if they were wrong like they are so many other times, you will be the first to complain of innocent civilian death. You simply cannot drop hellfire on our own, regardless of who you might take out. Our "friendly fire" count is not very good and that is abroad. Imagine what the toll would be here... Think before you type.
Yeah John we cant even get no knock warrants right in this country...Bad intel happens all the time...This is officially out of control.
Cory we're not talking about the house next door.. unless you live in Islamabad. This document is looking at existing laws and within US territory this is clearly illegal. The justice department states that this action is acceptable if these individuals are in a country that has declined to consent to a capture operation. Read before you type.
Scott the no knock warrants are outrageous. Clear violation of the 4th amendment and I'm surprised it hasn't been challenged in court yet. Again though as far as I'm concerned when you leave the country and plot against us you have forfeited your constitutional rights. This is something I would not like to see codified in law (what constitutes forfeiture of rights) because then we are actually opening a door. This document is nothing more then a legal opinion on existing laws.
Maybe and maybe not. Who would have thought 6 years ago a President would have authorized the indefinite dentention of Americans in America by the military with NO DUE PROCESS? See post 1.90 and 1.95
There was a law deemed unconstitutional (5-4 vote) that had a provision for this ... this sounds about as credible as the theory that Chis Kyle was the victim of a CIA assassination .
John, what about the 6th Amendment? - you cite the 4th amendment, but fail to recognize the 6th amendments right to due process, which this clearly does not require.... as no intelligence need be gathered.
No. These rights were taken away in one fell swoop back in 2001 to the sounds of the cheering masses beating the drumbeats of war...
John;
I am glad to see you cannot have a good common stance. You must look at the bigger picture, Obama gave rights to the prisoners in Gitmo that they, as Non U.S. Citizens did not have. You Libs were flabbergasted at us Conservatives about not doing this. Combatants are Combatants is what we were saying all along. They should never be given any more rights than that granted under the Geneva Convention. You Libs in your anger against Bush gave him the authority to do just that. Now you are trying to figure out why we conservatives are angry about this action. So let me explain it to you If we grant rights to foreign combatants then we, as the better nation, grant rights to all of those wishing ill will against us. Now you Libs say it is Ok if you are an American who, without proof, is deemed to be consorting with the enemy. The people that these so - called Americans are with Have more rights than the American citizen did.
If you are an American and a “senior operational leader” of al-Qaida or “an associated force” then you are not an American, but a traitor. The punishment for treason is death, by whatever means. Get over it. Enemys of America should not be protected by our less than adaqate liberal judicial system.
When you leave the country you are at the legal mercy of the country that hosts you. The U.S. can do nothing except attempt to intercede diplomatically if you run afoul of a host sovereign, or wage war against the host sovereign for an offence against one of our citizens. You have no Constitutional Rights protection in a foreign country. Al Qeada, by its own definition, is stateless, so their is no citizenship negotiations. They can come to any table at any time with terms for peace, it hasn't happened yet, and it doesn't mean we will accept their terms, but it is their war that they have declared against us. In the U.S. we execute people before we revoke their citizenship. It's very hard to denounce being an American.
Did they find the memo where Obama orders trillions to bankers who bought up stock? There should be a memo where he admits idiot liberals will pay back the debt by means of Labor Consumption and Tax. Yes work for lower wages cause your boss will be taxed spend more for goods because of tax and guess what idiots you will pay more in personal tax.
"idiot liberals"... i haven't seen better from the GOP
@infinity8project - You know, the ones that say you can't water board someone who can help with imminent threats but you can kill them if your parties in office and they are a higher up member of a terrorist group. I think Hypocrites should be included somewhere.
The stage is being set!! Clink...clink....clink....clink....clink. That's the sound of our rights that were set in stone by the founders being chipped away at. I'm thinking that I started to hear a few more hammers working here abouts lately.
Creek Dog. You failed to mention which of the Al-Awlaki family you thought should have been spared.
If this was during the Bush administration, Chris Mathews head would explode. Since it's his love interest, instead, Chris will just keep sucking.
Bush and his administration pushed the US Patriot Act on us....isn't that enough?? Toss in his Executive Order for Department of Homeland Security run amok with illegal wiretaps and you have yourself a nice party. All heads should have exploded.
Am thinking this 'confidential leak' is well timed....just when gun regulation is on the table for discussion. Won't be surprised to find the NRA had something to do with it. Lobby dollars go a long way.
Obamalies - exactly what I was thinking.
I'm not even against these drone strikes...if an American citizen is hanging out with a bunch of terrorists in god-forsaken Afghanistan and there is reason to believe he is plotting an attack against America...take him out. It's so freaking obvious, I don't need a 5 year court case to figure it out.
I just find it funny that when you read this article...try counting the number of times Obama's name comes up in this relatively long article. The answer is once, and in a very benign manner.
Now replace the context where instead MSNBC is reporting on Bush's White House regarding drone strikes. The article's direction and wording would be very different.
MSNBC is worse than Fox. It has to be the most one-sided biased media organization out there. Their reporting on anything related to politics is is full of propogana.
But damnit I love their online layout and their sports section, which is why I can't get away from getting my news here.
That's my problem too. I love the layout and have had MSNBC as my homepage since the beginning of the internet. It's been my place to get news since at least 1997. They are completely biased and indeed worse than FOX but they are easy to navigate on the web. Different story for the broadcast and cable news shows - Unwatchable.
don't forget it's Obama who signed the renew of Bush's Patriot Act, just as he continues Bush's drone strikes. Obama is just another Bush no matter how he pretends to be otherwise. only stupid people would trust him.
Somehow, Chris will try and figure a way to blame it on Bush. You got what you voted for Libs. Now just suck it up. Water boarding to get info was just so terrible, my-my, how times have changed. Now we just blow them up, no questions asked. Well at least you can't call it torture! What a joke!
obamalies: Instead it's Hannity's head that is still exploding over the election! Loser!! LMFAO
Obama! Obama! Obama!
from wikipedia
ECHELON is a name used in global media and in popular culture to describe a signals intelligence (SIGINT) collection and analysis network operated on behalf of the five signatory states to the UKUSA Security Agreement[1] (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States, referred to by a number of abbreviations, including AUSCANNZUKUS[1] and Five Eyes).[2][3] It has also been described as the only software system which controls the download and dissemination of the intercept of commercial satellite trunk communications.[4]
ECHELON was reportedly[by whom?] created to monitor the military and diplomatic communications of the Soviet Union and its Eastern Bloc allies during the Cold War in the early 1960s.[citation needed]
The system has been reported in a number of public sources.[5] Its capabilities and political implications were investigated by a committee of the European Parliament during 2000 and 2001 with a report published in 2001,[6] and by author James Bamford in his books on the National Security Agency of the United States.[4] The European Parliament stated in its report that the term ECHELON is used in a number of contexts, but that the evidence presented indicates that it was the name for a signals intelligence collection system. The report concludes that, on the basis of information presented, ECHELON was capable of interception and content inspection of telephone calls, fax, e-mail and other data traffic globally through the interception of communication bearers including satellite transmission, public switched telephone networks (which once carried most Internet traffic) and microwave links.[6]
Bamford describes the system as the software controlling the collection and distribution of civilian telecommunications traffic conveyed using communication satellites, with the collection being undertaken by ground stations located in the footprint of the downlink leg.
Capabilities
The ability to intercept communications depends on the medium used, be it radio, satellite, microwave, cellular or fiber-optic.[6] During World War II and through the 1950s, high frequency ("short wave") radio was widely used for military and diplomatic communication,[7] and could be intercepted at great distances.[6] The rise of geostationary communications satellites in the 1960s presented new possibilities for intercepting international communications. The report to the European Parliament of 2001 states: "If UKUSA states operate listening stations in the relevant regions of the earth, in principle they can intercept all telephone, fax and data traffic transmitted via such satellites."[6]
The role of satellites in point-to-point voice and data communications has largely been supplanted by fiber optics; in 2006, 99% of the world's long-distance voice and data traffic was carried over optical-fiber.[8] The proportion of international communications accounted for by satellite links is said to have decreased substantially over the past few years[when?] in Central Europe to an amount between 0.4% and 5%.[6] Even in less-developed parts of the world, communications satellites are used largely for point-to-multipoint applications, such as video.[9] Thus, the majority of communications can no longer be intercepted by earth stations; they can only be collected by tapping cables and intercepting line-of-sight microwave signals, which is possible only to a limited extent.[6]
One method of interception is to place equipment at locations where fiber optic communications are switched. For the Internet, much of the switching occurs at relatively few sites. There have been reports of one such intercept site, Room 641A, in the United States. In the past[when?] much Internet traffic was routed through the U.S. and the UK, but this has changed; for example, in 2000, 95% of intra-German Internet communications was routed via the DE-CIX Internet exchange point in Frankfurt.[6] A comprehensive worldwide surveillance network is possible only if clandestine intercept sites are installed in the territory of friendly nations, and/or if local authorities cooperate. The report to the European Parliament points out that interception of private communications by foreign intelligence services is not necessarily limited to the U.S. or British foreign intelligence services.[6]
Most reports on ECHELON focus on satellite interception; testimony before the European Parliament indicated that separate but similar UK-US systems are in place to monitor communication through undersea cables, microwave transmissions and other lines.[
Intelligence monitoring of citizens, and their communications, in the area covered by the AUSCANNZUKUS security agreement has caused concern. British journalist Duncan Campbell and New Zealand journalist Nicky Hager asserted in the 1990s that the United States was exploiting ECHELON traffic for industrial espionage, rather than military and diplomatic purposes.[10] Examples alleged by the journalists include the gear-less wind turbine technology designed by the German firm Enercon[6][11] and the speech technology developed by the Belgian firm Lernout & Hauspie.[12] An article in the US newspaper Baltimore Sun reported in 1995 that European aerospace company Airbus lost a $6 billion contract with Saudi Arabia in 1994 after the US National Security Agency reported that Airbus officials had been bribing Saudi officials to secure the contract.[13][14]
In 2001 the Temporary Committee on the ECHELON Interception System recommended to the European Parliament that citizens of member states routinely use cryptography in their communications to protect their privacy, because economic espionage with ECHELON has been conducted by the US intelligence agencies.[6]
Bamford provides an alternative view, highlighting that legislation prohibits the use of intercepted communications for commercial purposes, although does not elaborate on how intercepted communications are used as part of an all-source intelligence process.
According to its website, the US National Security Agency (NSA) is "a high technology organization ... on the frontiers of communications and data processing". In 1999 the Australian Senate Joint Standing Committee on Treaties was told by Professor Desmond Ball that the Pine Gap facility was used as a ground station for a satellite-based interception network. The satellites were said to be large radio dishes between 20 and 100 meters in diameter in geostationary orbits.[citation needed] The original purpose of the network was to monitor the telemetry from 1970s Soviet weapons, air defence radar, communications satellites and ground based microwave communications.[15]
The European Parliament's Temporary Committee on the ECHELON Interception System stated: "It seems likely, in view of the evidence and the consistent pattern of statements from a very wide range of individuals and organisations, including American sources, that its name is in fact ECHELON, although this is a relatively minor detail."[6] The U.S. intelligence community uses many code names (see, for example, CIA cryptonym).
Former NSA employee Margaret Newsham claims that she worked on the configuration and installation of software that makes up the ECHELON system while employed at Lockheed Martin, for whom she worked from 1974 to 1984 in Sunnyvale, California, US, and in Menwith Hill, England, UK.[16] At that time, according to Newsham, the code name ECHELON was NSA's term for the computer network itself. Lockheed called it P415. The software programs were called SILKWORTH and SIRE. A satellite named VORTEX intercepted communications. An image available on the internet of a fragment apparently torn from a job description shows Echelon listed along with several other code names
surprise surprise surprise , big brother has been watching you since the 1950's :-)
WAAAAAY to long of a post Stimulating. Brevity
Wow, you know how to cut and paste!
In 2003 because of our losses to IUDs I gave a solution to the problem to the Pentagon. It involved the use of drones to locate and destroy those who were in the act of placing IEDs. Shortly after the program started there was a notable drop in IEDs. Many American lives were saved.
What evolved from that was the locating and destroying of concentrations of insurgents. I don't have a problem with that but using them against Americans who have not been given due process is wrong. The same rule that limits the CIA to do their operations to outside our country should apply here.
considering these are drone strikes occurring already OUTSIDE the country, it would seem this law already applies...
There's a difference between breaking American laws and due process and waging war against America and the rules of war. There is no law of the enemy that the opponent is obligated to adhere to, hence, U.S. Constitutional Rights do not apply to enemy combatants, but the rules of war apply to all warring nations and factions.
The argument should be that the paper doesn't address the power to revoke citizenship based on treason or active enlistments with known enemy combatants, "
"8 USC § 1481
a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—,,,
(7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of title 18, or violating section 2384 of title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction...
....Any person who commits or performs, or who has committed or performed, any act of expatriation under the provisions of this chapter or any other Act shall be presumed to have done so voluntarily, "
Why shouldn't we use drones on traitorous Americans abroad.? That Adam Pearlman Gadahn is a senior member of the AQ command structure, effectively, their communications director, is not in question. He's appeared in numerous videos calling for the murder of Americans, including several where he is seated next to AQ boss Ayman al-Zawahiri himself. He's been indicted in absentia for treason. If he's stupid enough to step outside his cave, then, yeah, we should kill him.
Who could have a problem with that?
I think you're trying to apply this to a very specific situation of a known traitor causing the deaths of American citizens. What you're missing is the "interpretation" that we now can leave up to those in the government to decide who to assassinate and when. What's to stop DHS or who knows who from killing Americans in Kansas because they may or may not have done something at some time in the past or thought to be a possible threat to the future. This is crazy is what it is. All discussion around this in the DOJ needs to be put forward to the public because keeping it cloak and dagger only feeds into nut cases.
You make an excellent point Einstein. But putting this forth in the public is not possible. Our methods in use currently require that AQ individuals don't think we know where they are.
If they do they will crawl back in their cave and we will lose an opportunity.
No trials needed ... just someone saying you are a member of a terrorist group, and you are dead. If we are not willing to put boots on the ground, maybe we should just stay home.
This has been a key problem in Pakistan, where much of the 'intelligence' is just people accusing neighbors they have been feuding with for generations. Think about the countries that let us operate drones in their country. Are we killing for freedom, or just eliminating their 'enemies'?
What started as a slippery slope under Bush has become legal free fall under Obama. Coming to you on US soil next. We already use drones on the border, and some cities are starting to use them for 'surveillance'. More advanced models will not need missiles; a .22 to the back of the head works just as well.
Exactly, biker.
All I can say is that we're holding our leaders over the fire because they weren't aggressive in deterring the Libya strike and others like it and yet to come. Deterring those strikes means removing the enemy's leadership through preemptive tactical strikes. Are y'all saying that we should hesitate doing so if we suspect that one of those leaders, present at a strike target site, might be a traitorous American citizen? These are all declared enemies of the United States already. We shouldn't have to wait to get them.
Well the 5th amendment says that a citizen can't be killed without "due process" as in a trial and representation and a jury.
Worlds gone nuts
"Are y'all saying that we should hesitate doing so if we suspect that one of those leaders, present at a strike target site, might be a traitorous American citizen?"
No but if they are a CIA operative that the DOD doesn't know about then things could get very messy.
The problem is not the use of drones to execute a convicted traitor. The problem is that the executive has decided that it has the power to bypass the trial and go straight to the execution.
Try him in absentia, convict him, then use a drone on him and there's no problem.
They're not talking about outside the US...this is drone attacks in Kansas. If this doesn't get a heads up from every American citizen...then we are losing our sense of who we are. Our government sees itself as a priviledged imperial class. Otherwise they would not even think of horror like this. Take away our guns and now discussing drone attack scenarios...
Kansas? read the article.. nowhere does it say the military well have the right to stage drone strikes in Kansas.. This only applies to foreign battlefields.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Obama has a dictator mentality. He is moving in that direction. The movie 2016 explains. Now, I am packing, and moving to the mountains. God help us all.
It only applies to foreign soil NOW...why is HS buying a ton of ammo???
'cause they got a good deal?
..and hopefully they plan on using that ammo against gang bangers. I doubt that the ammo is for drones.
IM crazy .... we're not talking about targeting individuals with drones in Kansas which is clearly illegal. The justice department is addressing existing laws and making a legal case for killing individuals in countries that "decline to consent to capture".
IM crazy .... we're not talking about targeting individuals with drones in Kansas which is clearly illegal. The justice department is addressing existing laws and making a legal case for killing individuals in countries that "decline to consent to capture". I definitely agree with the apprehension but from what I see I don't have a major problem with this. Go to another country and engage in these activities and you forfeit your rights.
just wanted to throw it out there - the 5th amendment is concerned with not incriminating yourself, the 6th amendment is concerned with due process of law. Also John, the proximity of your location does NOT have an effect on your constitutional rights. If you are an American Citizen, the constitution holds true to you anywhere and everywhere, when concerning the US government.
CaliforniaFirst - you don't buy 4.5 billion rounds of hollow point machine gun ammo for use on gang bangers - open your eyes.
Um no. They're talking about YEMEN. There's a big difference...
LOL, 4.5 BILLION rounds. Talk about stretching the truth. You're off by a factor of 1,000, and it's not particularly outlandish that DHS has purchased 4.5 MILLION rounds (to cover 5 years of operation) when they're supplying other agencies like the ATF, DEA, and ICE with their ammo.
I secede - the above poster is right - it is 4.5 million rounds, I am sorry for this mistake.
thank you for correcting yourself, that was actually mature and reasoned, something that is rare on these boards.
And I'm not particularly worried about DHS purchasing ammo considering they arm other agencies and have armed personnel as well. People should not get carried away with conspiracy theories and think the government is arming itself for a coming civil war or for the rise of tyranny.
Hell, the US Army probably DOES buy billions of round of ammo at a time, and no one gets worked up over that! Law enforcement and members of the military carry guns, guns need ammo to be effective. Nothing to see here folks, move along...
@CaliforniaFirst who stated:
@Drowning Grover who stated:
Actually Yemen, Kansas - all the same, drones can be used, Americans can be assassinated on AMERICAN soil WITHOUT due process. Sometimes you need to read more than ONE article to get information.
Are there factory farms in KANSAS? I think so....hmmmm
Link: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/12/constitutional-expert-president-obama-says-that-he-can-kill-you-on-his-own-discretion-he-can-jail-you-indefinitely-on-his-own-discretion.html
And yet the socialist government forces you to put your seat-belt on to save your own life, and you do nothing to preserve the liberty of flying through the windshield of your private property and splatting onto the public road that you paid taxes for.
Freedom, that's my point. They should be using that ammo on gangbangers. A few million rounds aren't nearly enough to deal with the one million or so gangbangers in this country, but it might just be enough to pacify Chicago.
I'm not urging the use of weaponized combat drones on gangbangers.. that's for AQ terrorists abroad.. but heavily armed National Guardsmen slaughtering gangbangers with machine guns.. fine by me.
Admittedly, I'm from the hawk wing of the Democratic Party.. :)
No, no, no, no, no, NO!!!! This type of logic must cease!!!
Man it is amazing how people can not read what they read; this power is given to the president to kill so called Americans OVERSEAS while they are doing what they are doing there to foster pain against your family and mine here in continental USA or elsewhere....OVERSEAS, Get it? Read people, would you prefer that Anwar al-Awlaki, the American living in Yemen killed by Drones live and continue to encourage more of the 13 killings at Ft Hood?
Patrik -- Roll back over, you're talking in your sleep, again. If you can't read between the lines, then no pity when you're whining about how awful it is when they suggest enforcing this on U.S. soil and take your rights away step by step (this is the next, by the way, to make it slowly more acceptable to gullible/naive U.S. citizens like you and many others on this vine), and they put your family more in harms way by the hands of your OWN gov't.
Patrik - The Constitution is not dictated by proximity of location. Overseas or NOT ... if they are American Citizens they should and be executed.
Encouraging killing is a really fine line. And this is a very disturbing case. There was no evidence of al-Awlaki actually conducting any operations for the enemy. There were deep suspicions about it that were probably quite justified. But we have a legal system for this sort of thing. You extradite the criminal, conduct an investigation, and have a trial. But this is what happened: The executive branch assassinated an American citizen because of what he said. That's all there was evidence for. That's all it took to kill him. There was no oversight by anybody and these documents make the assertion that there is no need for oversight. It's a dangerous and disturbing place to be in. No president of any party ought to have the power to wield that authority. And if this is all it takes to call it "legal" then all the next administration has to do is issue a new memo removing the "overseas" part. Then we're about one sheer drop away from losing the first amendment and executing anybody who speaks out. (And no, gun advocates, I don't believe the right to bear arms will keep this in check. There are darn few firearms that will be effective against drones.)
U.S. Constitution - Article 3 - Section 3
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."
This seems pretty straight forward to me without much room for interpretation.
Except per the memo they are not being characterized as guilty of Treason
If that is your definition of treason (sounds reasonable to me) then every single Congressman is guilty of treason for giving aid and comfort to the multinational corporations who are buying their votes and destroying OUR government and Constitution peicemeal. They are also guilty of treason for SWEARING to protect the Constitution and then promptly passing two law which GUT it (NDAA and the re-authorization of the "Patriot" Act) Every last damn one of them belong in prison for life!
ooh, ooh. I'll be a witness to Congressional Treason!
petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/land-your-land-land-my-land-say-no-drones-usa-and-abroad/lTwr3mzB
Yes, and the memo makes no such requirements.
Those who are plotting attacks on the United States are NOT military. They do not serve under any flag. They are gangsters and terrorists with very serious weaponry and considerable financial support.
Our military is not equipped to deal with this type of enemy. We are facing an entirely new type of threat that has no clearly defined counter at present. Everyone is flying by the seat of their pants as we try to find ways to protect our security.
It's messy. It does not set well with those of us who grew up believing in truth, justice, and "The American Way".
However, you do not sit on your hands and wait for the next strike, now do you? Or would you prefer another massive attack on American soil, and we can scream, point fingers and demand to know why no one did anything about.
... and when they come for you, no one will know why you are dead
"Our military is not equipped to deal with this type of enemy. We are facing an entirely new type of threat that has no clearly defined counter at present. Everyone is flying by the seat of their pants as we try to find ways to protect our security."
Exactly. First, freedom will protect us all. Keep our Government from hunting its citizens without due process.
Steve:
With drones as small as hummingbirds, they could just shoot a rock in your head and have a witness that it came from a speeding car.... ;) sad but true...I agree with you (no sarc - sometimes it is hard to tell)
Oh no!! This SHOULD be done the right way. Please go to these American citizens living abroad as terrorist, arrest them, bring them to trial. The propah way.
Or simply die when they shoot your a$$ off. And then come for more Americans to kill and maim.
here's idea.....why not clear out military personel and have a real good drone strike on Guantanamo
"...the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be..."
Well, so much for the presumption of innocent until proven guilty, and the right to a public trial by a jury of your peers.
comment deleted
"operational leaders of an Al Qaeda or associated force"...i wonder who Barry will appoint to be the discerner of a dreaded "opposing force"...like any that oppose this lying,marxist,narcissist,non citizen,antichrist?
If he had let one of those low lifes knock your friend or family member off you would now be screaming your ^%*&^ head off...
strange
Shoot 'em all and let God sort it out. That seems to be our new philosophy in security, not just on a federal level, either. Every one from your neighborhood watch guy, to the local police and up seems to think that deadly force is an acceptable first option. I have a hard time thinking that anyone, liberal or conservative, would agree to eliminating any American's 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th Constitutional Amendment rights. Having said that, if an American citizen is being accused of being part of a terrorist cell abroad, there should be some legal mechanism for reviewing and perhaps revoking his citizenship.
Sorry, but if a US citizen is a senior member of a terrorist group, they should be taken care of. In my eyes, they have forfeited all rights of a US citizen.
A confidential Justice Department memo concludes that the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be “senior operational leaders” of al-Qaida or “an associated force” -- even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S.
Did you READ the last sentence??????? EVEN IF THERE IS NO INTELLIGENCE!!!!
FedupwithFed....such a tickle...have you read the US Patriot Act....even if there is no intelligence went by the wayside with Bush. No reason to use caps.
How do you know they are a member of a terrorist group? If someone gives them your name, are you OK with that missile coming thru your window?
It is hard to think that the worst will not happen...an innocent person being killed.
Man it is amazing how people can not read what they read; this power is given to the president to kill so called Americans OVERSEAS while they are doing what they are doing there to foster pain against your family and mine here in continental USA or elsewhere....OVERSEAS, Get it? Read people, would you prefer that Anwar al-Awlaki, the American living in Yemen killed by Drones live and continue to encourage more of the 13 killings at Ft Hood?
patrik, there is nothing in the US Constitution that says that the rights of US citizen vanish if they are "OVERSEAS".
I would prefer Anwar al-Awlaki be convicted by a court of law and then executed to his being executed just because you think he's a bad guy.
What is your objection to due process being applied before the execution?
And when that terrorist-killing drone comes a-calling next-door one day when your kids are playing in the backyard, will that be OK with you?
patric.lotsofnumbers,
Where did this white paper say that this was exclusive to "OVERSEAS"? This was for anywhere in the world, including on US soil! This is clearly against the Constitution and smells of dictatorial powers!
Considering that they are training the US police to use drones and expect roughly 30,000 drones (from full size to hummingbird) in the skies by 2020....none of them with a flight plan....I hope they carefully screen the domestic police force - if you don't believe my numbers, please Google them yourself - MSNBC had it up a month ago and other sites have quoted it....
How many drones will fly in US airspace - copy and paste that into your search engine
Our money states "in God we trust"
God gave us the ten commandments.
#6 "thou shall not murder"
Enough said.
"drone strikes on Americans"
Drones are cheaper and cheaper is always good because $$ is good.
I don't see the problem here , if it makes money than it is good because $$ is good.
WHAT'S ALL THE NOISE ABOUT, ESPECIALLY FOR KILLING TERRORISTS WHO WOULDN'T SURRENDER.
Judges in the courts of the nation. police officers in the street of America and Governors make a decision routinely about killing Americans. If they have that power to decide, what about the President who is sworn to protect the nation against foreign and domestic enemies and attacks?
Dr. Sam, "judges in the courts of the nation" are expressly empowered to try cases. That's what they are there for. But a judge cannot order someone executed without trial unless that person has expressly waived his right to trial. Police officers are not allowed to execute anybody on a whim. There are circumstances where they are empowered to use deadly force, but in general there has to be immediate danger and if the cop judges wrong then he can land on Death Row himself. Governors do not have any power to execute anyone without due process.
This right cannot be waived. Due process is (usually) considered mandatory. Even if you plead guilty there is still a trial, albeit a short one.
Dr Sam,
What's all the noise about? When we compromise our principles for an extraordinary circumstance, it is the first step to compromising them for ordinary circumstances. When we do that enough, we are lost. The rule of law collapses and we descend into totalitarianism or feudalism.
It would be great if we did not have to do things like this, but it is the best choice out of all the bad available options.
I don't see this as much different than the decision Truman made to drop A-bombs on 2 cities in Japan knowing that many civilians, including children, would be killed. It ended a terrible war.
The war was over before we ever dropped the bombs in Japan. The bombs were dropped to show the Russians we had them.
Stop being brainwashed by Oliver Stone! The Japanese were not about to surrender and no one wanted to invade a country that invented suicide bombing (Kamikaze). Stop being a dancing clown!
Peter17, this is not "the best choice out of all the bad available options". Currently US law does not allow trial in absentia but it should be possible to establish a narrow set of conditions in which doing so is lawful. The government should at least try to do this rather than giving the President the power to kill anybody he feels like killing just because he's in a bad mood that day, which is pretty much what that white paper says is allowable.
As for the atomic bombs, there was a list of 39 cities in Japan that were to be destroyed before the invasion. When the atomic bomb became available, only 4 of those cities had not been destroyed. The atomic bombs were used on the next two on the list and the Japanese surrendered before the remaining two were destroyed. People act like the only two cities in Japan to be destroyed were Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Every city of any size in Japan was firebombed and burned to the ground, with total casualties far greater than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But nobody cares about all those people because they got burned to a crisp with weapons that were politically correct.
Don't forget, we flew planes over those two cities and dropped thousands of leaflets telling the Japanese to leave because we planned to bomb them. Half left, half stayed!
Even after the atomic bomb was used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Japanese would not surrender until threat was made to drop the next one on the emperor's palace. They promptly surrendered.
Peter - Do you not see the difference? The bombing was of a foreign nation. The bombing did not explicitly target AMERICANS.... Is the difference not clear? The constitution does NOT apply to foreigners - It applies to American Citizens.
@ Steve-2352647 I've read your posts today, very well spoken & cute dog (no sarcasm, I mean it) - good posts!
If the police encounter an individual planning an attack, they have the legal right to use deadly force. So, faced with a far greater threat, the president of the United States cannot use deadly force to intercept a member of Al Qaeda. In case you haven't heard, Al Qaeda's purpose for existence is to kill Americans.
No, Hdumpty, the police do not have the legal right to use deadly force on an individual planning an attack. Whatever gave you the idea that they did? If the police encounter someone with a weapon in his hand or if someone starts shooting at them, then they have the legal right to use deadly force, but they do not have the legal right to use it on someone who is merely planning.
This is not the Minority Report and who in America wants the president, regardless of who it is on either side, to have absolute power? If you have some dolt making decisions like this moron-----
IXLR8
Start down in Florida on a trial basis, most of your targets hang there...........
Hey IX----maybe use them in Chicago since all the violence there seems to come from angry liberals who most likely voted for Obama, not from God's waiting room. When are granola munchers going to be declared green terrorists. I can see the bumper stickers now----Go green, boil an enviromentalist! Start down a slippery slope and there is only one place to end up.
I agree with this completely. American terrorists need to be eliminated just as any others should be.
This poses the even more pertinent follow-up question - What is a terrorist? Does'nt the ever changing definition concern you even a little bit? Fine line between revolutionary and terrorist. Remember you dont have to murder anyone (or contribute to their murder) to be considered a terrorist.
So when they started in the Pentagon and the White House ? next will be Israel...
So Big Brother can order a person, who might be a threat, killed without a trial or even hard evidence. How much longer before it's "legal" to kill a potential threat on American soil? Watch out for the drones!
Sounds to me like a new era of McCarthyism is about to begin. History always repeats itself.
IMPEACH!
CONVICT!
REMOVE!
DEPORT back to Kenya!
Yes, Sir.
What to do with the Bush Klan that opened this door in 2002?
Ha ha ha....I HAD to read this figuring the tinfoil hats would be out in force. I laughed thinking about some paranoid redneck standing out in his back yard firing his AR in the air randomly, I mean exercising his second amendment right, in the hope it would hit a drone.
John Adams,
The Drones are circling your house as we speak,
Mark,
You are a special kind of stupid.
Take the war criminals George W Bush and Dick Cheney too.
petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/land-your-land-land-my-land-say-no-drones-usa-and-abroad/lTwr3mzB
Start in the states with the biggest debts. California followed by Illinois, New York, Philadelphia. That should give the usa a better start to a better future. I'm sure there are a few more whose debt are sagging the nation down.
Philadelphia is NOT a state!!! And all this time people have been blaming the dumbing down of America on Affirmative Action.
I cannot believe I am reading this in 2013 - that this nation would start to admit it is willing to kill its own. I'm telling you now - I've witnessed a hell of a lot of corruption by this nation's law enforcement, and so much so that I wonder about 9/11 - exactly WHO was the cause. I believe that oil-producing nations were involved, but I also believe that those with the most guns win in this land - guarding the owners of multi-conglomerates, billionaire politicians, and those that own the most real property - at the expense of mainstream civilians that never see an officer when a crime is committed against them. The corruption is so heavy and broadly expressed across this land that perhaps you can take your God-forsaken drones and fire them unto yourselves in Washington. Most Americans may consider that justice.
Speak for yourselves.
Stop terrorizing citizens in this nation.
The Saudis were behind 9/11. How come drones are not taking them out?
Steve, Just wondering why do you think the Saudis were responsible for 9/11?
Shiloh- Maybe because 17 of the 19 attacking the USA were Saudis?
To all the commenters suggesting that the drone targets are training operatives in terrorism against the US, re-read this passage from the article:
"Instead, it says, an “informed, high-level” official of the U.S. government may determine that the targeted American has been “recently” involved in “activities” posing a threat of a violent attack and “there is no evidence suggesting that he has renounced or abandoned such activities.” The memo does not define “recently” or “activities.”"
That's down-right terrifying as it leaves the criteria completely up to that high-level official, no proof, no evidence, hell not even any kind of timeframe for when the supposed activities occur. That is what scares me about this. If an American is overseas, asking a local for something, and that local happens to have been at some point in time connected in some hazy way to "activities", there is absolutely no framework for conclusively proving or disproving that Americans ties to terrorism. That American can be assasinated.
A few years ago you lamo's were complaining that Obama wasn't doing enough to protect us from terrorists. Now that it's in the news that he IS protecting us from terrorists, you're all complaining that he's doing too much. Geez, people... are you never happy?!
In spite of the alarming sounding headline, there are no drone strikes on American soil-- MSNBC was just baiting the hot-heads who don't bother to read the entire article. And don't kid yourself that there was no evidence surrounding the activities of Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Khan. You would be singing a different song if Obama had waited, wringing his hands and ignoring the signs, (like Bush did,) while these two crashed a plane into the new World Trade Center.
I have a huge problem with even suggesting that the goverment does anything thing without due process against US citizens.
Are you just throwing that out there, or do you want to KNOW why from Firsthand Experience.
In 1998 President Clinton (42) in his 1998 State of the Union Address Demanded the Overthrow of President Hussein with the Jusification Weapons of Mass Destruction, the Supporting the Holy Warriors of Islam at Bosnia, etc..
Read both pages (two pages):
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/01/27/sotu/transcripts/clinton/
From President Clinton's Demand US Congress passed President Clinton's US Law, H.R.4655 "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" Section 2 Findings (Justifications): Weapons Of Mass Destruction, Section 3 US Policy Overthrow of President Hussein with US Congressional Appropriations.
Read all five (5) Pages of President Clinton's H.R.4655 "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" that later became 2003 US Military Operation Iraqis Freedom. With President Bush (43) Accomplishing President Clinton's US Policy Overthrow of President Hussein.
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1057063/posts
President Bush (43) Unedited Mission Accomplished Speech (read all five (5) pages). Does not fit the Democrat narrative (Lies) nor President Obama during the Reelection Presidential Debates "Bush Unilateral Invasion of Iraq":
http://articles.cnn.com/2003-05-01/us/bush.transcript_1_general-franks-major-combat-allies?_s=PM:US
Do not even say that declaring the Overthrow of a Soverign Nation's Government is not a Declaration of War; it is like the Chinese and or Russian Federation stating the Overthrow of President Obama.
Those of us that were the US Military Training Teams to US Ally Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars Knew that President Hussein was the Counterbalance to the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran, using his own Iraqis Oil Wealth and the lives of the Iraqis Citizens of the Iraqis Military to keep the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran stuck fighting at US Ally Iraq. Most of us opposed the Overthrow and were threaten with jail so instead of jail;
We went into Iraq in 1998 hired hundreds of thousands of Shia Iraqis (mostly from Iran that fled to Iraq as Illegal Aliens from the massive unemployment at Iran after the Fall of the Shah of Iran) as assassins and insurgent to Overthrow Sunnis President Hussein (as Asymmetric Warfare we used the hatred of the Shia of the Sunnis, and the perceived or real injustices as the Iraqis denied the Iranian Illegal Aliens Iraqis Citizen's Rights). Because President Clinton had Gutted the US Intelligence Agencies, due to his belief that the Cold War Era US Defense, US Intelligence Agencies, US Military were no longer needed, we did not have any local Iraqis intelligence assets to link up with and get current from the ground situational intelligence; many of the previous US local Iraqis intelligence assets to survive since they were no longer funded became Iraqis Counter Intelligence Agents, Iraqis Military Intelligence, Iraqis Law Enforcement (and Iraqis Secret Police), etc. and they were waiting for us to do something; so the hundreds of thousands of Shia Iraqis we hired were easily captured, tried, executed as traitors, and dumped into mass graves. President Clinton spun this to "Dictator Masscred His Own People".
While still at Iraq living with the few Pro US Iraqis, we started 1998 US Military Operation Desert Fox. It was President Clinton's belief that by targeting the Iraqis Political Leadership there would be no one left to negotiate Peace (the step down of President Hussein). So as Commander In Chief President Clinton Ordered the Airstrikes and Cruise Missile Attacks of the Crowded Urban Poor Areas of Baghdad. We objected again based on firsthand experience, that you do not f**k with the Poor of Islam; so we were limited to only Target Damage Assessments, NO Targeting. During the Airstrikes and Cruise Missile attacks hundreds of thousands of the Poor of Islam died.
The Islamic World condemned the US as the Great Satan. We had to exfiltrate as even the Pro US Iraqis we were living with hated us. Osama Bin Laden in retribution plans the 9/11 2001 Attacks of the same targets after President Clinton let Osama Bin Laden go after the 1993 First World Trade Center Bombings, as President Clinton refused the offered extradiction of Osama Bin Laden from a US Ally, refused to provide evidence of Osama Bin Laden's involvement with the 1993 First World Trade Center Bombings; and refused Presidential Authorization to the US Military Asymmetric Warfare Teams that were shadowing Osama Bin Laden from Nation to Nation, so that they could terminate OBL and go home to their families. Eventually, OBL and his AQ gets Islamic Sanctuary from the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban Government of Afghanistan. Since President Clinton Gutted the US Intelligence Agencies the US did not have any local Afghan intelligence assets so no one knew where OBL was nor what he was doing. The US was Blind and Deaf to the Events leading to the 9/11 2001 Attacks per Bipartisan US Congressional 9/11 Commission (Committee) Investigations, Findings, and Recommendation, with former President Clinton saying "I'm a so sorry".
Prior to President Clinton's (42) Gutting of the US Intelligence Agencies, the Director of the CIA Bush (later President Bush (41)), had built up the US Intelligence Agencies as the Envy of the World after the Fall of the USSR and the KGB.
There is your Unclassified Causative Timeline, Justis4U, you wanted to know WHO, I gave you the who, what, where, why, how, when, why based on firsthand experience (survival) and unclassified or declassified links to back up my firsthand experience.
Like I told Jonathan-1982062 to stop spaming his Taqiya for the US to attack a US Ally (Saudi Arabia).
Fundamentalist Islam is NOT determined by Nation of Origin nor being Sunnis or Shia Nations, or other Labels, Actions determine what they are.
example: Fundamentalist Islamic Osama Bin Laden created his Fundamentalist Islamic Al Quada to fight the US and US Allies Worldwide; and to Overthrow US Ally Saudi Arabia (Collaborators to the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers "Die a Horrible Murdering to Dwell in that Firey Place" per current Islamic Laws).
Do you get that concept now, Steve-2352647, Roger 2468. If you do:
Pakistan is controlled by three Factions: 1. US Ally Government of Pakistan (and most of the Pakistanis Military). 2. The Fundamentalist Islamic Pakistanis Citizens, that historically broke away from Hindu India to form a Islamic Nation, by current Islamic Laws they MUST support the Holy Warriors of Islam (aka Islamic Jihadists). 3. The Inter Service Intelligence (ISI) Agency (including Secret Police), even we cannot figure out who's side they are on, many flip flop, sleepers, double agents, triple agents, etc..
Do you have any questions pertaining to those matters that I have posted.
Reckin' Robin: Who are you trying to fool? If Obama was genuinely concerned about protecting this nation from terrorism, he would have taken bold steps to secure the border years ago. Even now, his minions have stated that border security would not stop the left from implementing their amnesty agenda. It speaks volumes that you apparently haven't the slightest intellectual curiosity regarding this news but rather choose to meekly accept the administration's explanation.
Wow! Sound just like a recording from one of the Sux News spots.
Just a reality check for you, gob, assuming you can turn off the Sux News non-information for five minutes to listen:
The drone program, was started, covertly under the Bush/Cheney administration.
There are limited choices to deal with former American citizens that become terrorists, such as ignore them, put boots on the ground in countries where the local government is actively or passively granting amnesty to these cowardly, baby-killing traitors or we can use covert actions suchg as drone strikes to take them out before they disturb your safe and restful sleep with a dirty bomb right in your very own community.
You may truthfully not like drone strikes, and neither do I, but given the alternatives, I think the right choices are being made here. At least until whackos (eg. gun nuts in foreign lands) stop threatening our way of life.
Oh! Here we go! Blame Bush! Took you long enough to climb out from under your rock you piece of crap! Read the story! OBAMA ADMINISTRATION POLICY! If you people would pull your head out from Obama's butt long enogh to get some fresh air, you might be able to contribute something to this world!
All the people they said were crazy to think Obama would do something like this, the Left has ridiculed and labeled as nut jobs! Now you are presented with PROOF and you say it is Bush's fault? Unbeliveable! I can only marval at your neverending stupidity! And those folks with guns who are law abiding citizens, might just save your sorry #ss from a REAL nut job, so think about that!
Great... now the government can use the "Al Quida" excuse to take out American citizens. Impeach that loser of a President before America becomes an oppressed nation like China!!!
"There are limited choices to deal with former American citizens that become terrorists, such as ignore them, put boots on the ground in countries where the local government is actively or passively granting amnesty to these cowardly, baby-killing traitors or we can use covert actions suchg as drone strikes to take them out before they disturb your safe and restful sleep with a dirty bomb right in your very own community." - JCnGAM
So in your mind if the Government wants to kill someone; they can avoid due process, evidence, a trial, or ANY PROOF AT ALL and simply claim "he needed killing for national security" and you're good with that?
Sorry, that's bullsh*t and you know it. If you want to claim someone is a terrorist PROVE IT. I don't give a damn if you try them in absentia just to have some evidence on record justifying your claim and actions; but SOMETHING would be better than killing a US Citizen and when asked why you killed him saying "you don't need to know, we won't tell you, go away".
Perhaps you're ok with giving up trial by jury, due process, and other freedoms when the Federal government simply wants to go kill someone. I think that's probably not a good thing to let them do without requiring them to prove and justify their actions.
But good luck trusting the government without requiring any checks, balances, proof, or evidence.
Absolute power doesn't corrupt at all, right?
Trust the government they never do anything shady or corrupt ever.
...
Have you suffered a recent head injury of some sort?
Ok, I have something for the those who have less worldly experience than some people...At point very early in my military service, we were informed by security operatives, that should we ever be taken hostage, that security forces had orders to "take us out" to prevent the hostage takers from gaining access to "sensitive" items. That even meant if it was on US soil.In effect, we would possibly be murdered by our own troops in the name of security.
I have deep concerns about this memo based on that personal knowledge. Concerns that it may be used some day on US soil. Image this scenerio...A drone targets a home with people in it, good or bad. After the strike, the feds take control of the site, claiming it was a terrorist cell that accidentally blew themselves up. It could be true or it could be false. Who would know the difference?
This move on the part of our federal govt. is nothing more than an expected effort to lay the ground work for taking action against U.S. citizens on their own soil. Obama and his administration is laying the foundation of "expectation". To be effective they have to start using this language on a routine basis to desensitize the public for when "action" is actually taken.
We are being destroyed from the inside. The U.S. ceased to be a world leader in the future. One world govt. can not succeed if the U.S. is still a world power. Leaders of both political parties are actually involved. Timetable is playing out just as anticipated. Too bad too many people are worried about crap. That's why the educational system was so important in dumbing down several generations. No history to fall back on in their knowledge..no way they know what is coming. Like lambs to slaughter.