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Interactive map: A long weekend of gun deaths. Click to enlarge.
A special weeklong examination of gun violence, gun ownership and gun legislation. NBC News journalists will report across "NBC Nightly News," "TODAY," MSNBC, CNBC, NBCNews.com, and more. The conversation will also extend across NBC News and MSNBC's social media platforms using the hashtag #GunsInUSA.
It was after midnight, early on a Saturday in the college town of Moscow, Idaho, and student Jason "Cowboy" Monson was at the police station to get back his Desert Eagle .45-caliber handgun.
In McDonough, Ga., about the same time, two teenage brothers were still awake. A friend was sleeping over, and their mother had let the boys handle her .38-caliber revolver, which was unloaded. She'd gone to bed.
In South Valley, N.M., it was quiet at the Griego household as 15-year-old Nehemiah waited for his father to come home from the night shift at a homeless shelter. The son was holding his father's AR-15 semi-automatic rifle.
In the next few hours, the freshman in Idaho, one of the brothers in Georgia, and most of the Griego family would be dead, victims of three forms of gun violence — suicide, accident and murder — that are everyday occurrences in the United States.
Their deaths, and scores of others, occurred over a holiday weekend, the third weekend in January, when America celebrated the memory of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., a victim of gun violence. It also was the weekend the nation swore in a re-elected president whose inaugural address referred to guns, though he didn’t actually say the word: "Our journey is not complete until all our children, from the streets of Detroit to the hills of Appalachia to the quiet lanes of Newtown, know that they are cared for, and cherished, and always safe from harm."
San Antonio Express-News via Zuma Press
One of 91 deaths identified by guns across America on a long holiday weekend: Officers with the Bexar County, Texas, Sheriff's Office investigate the shooting death of Jesse Rosas, whose bullet-riddled body was found on the side of a road near San Antonio on Jan. 21. Police have not identified any suspects.
By the end of the long weekend — after President Barack Obama had spoken and the red, white and blue confetti strewn along Pennsylvania Avenue had been cleaned up — at least 91 people across America had been killed by guns. That's more than three times the number of caskets needed in Connecticut after the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School. These 91 people died, not in a single burst of violence over a few minutes, but spread over a three-day weekend, like an autoworker stealing an entire convertible one part at a time to escape notice.
In the aftermath of the Dec. 14 Newtown shooting, during a renewed national debate about gun rights and gun control, NBC News picked the weekend of Jan. 19-21 to examine gun deaths across America. Today and on Monday and Tuesday, we'll tell you what we found and introduce you to some of the victims and their families. We also invite you to look at our online map and to draw your own impressions from the stories of violence.
We don't pretend to have found all the gun deaths over that weekend. There is no official census of gun deaths, and it takes the federal government many months to compile national crime and suicide statistics. We drew our list from the deaths that were reported in the press, and confirmed the details with authorities in all but a few cases. If you only want to know how many people are killed by guns on an average day in America, simply divide the annual figure, about 31,300, by 365 days, and there's your average: about 86 people a day.
As part of a weeklong special report, "Flashpoint:Guns in America," NBC News charted every death attributable to firearms that we could find over the three-day weekend in January ending on Martin Luther King Jr. Day. We found that, as President Barack Obama was being sworn in for his second term, at least 91 people were losing their lives to gunfire.
Why did we find “only” 91 in three days? The main reason is that hardly any suicides get reported in the media. Suicides by gun are twice as common as gun homicides. Some homicides don't get any publicity either. Unless a killer chooses a public place, annihilates an entire family or shoots up a Wal-Mart, he might not even get on a website, in the newspaper or on TV, not on a holiday weekend competing with the festivities in the nation's capital and the Ravens-Patriots and Falcons-Seahawks games. The Griego family massacre in New Mexico was the only incident that long weekend to get significant national news attention. It also could be that holiday weekends with NFL championships are safer, with so many young men – who are statistically far more likely to shoot someone — inside instead, watching the games.
Guns by the numbers: how violence adds up
Our goal was not, however, merely to count the deaths, but to share the stories of the people who died, to see what lessons one might learn from those whose deaths usually go unnoticed, that don't prompt the president to order the White House flag to half-staff.
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It's an inescapable conclusion, even from our small sample, that there are many ways to get killed with a gun in America.
Based on interviews with police, prosecutors and family members in all but a few of the cases, we tallied 53 homicides where one person killed another. There were another three homicides where multiple people were killed. There were six murder-suicides, and six suicides. Five accidental shootings. Three shootings by police, and at least two by civilians in self-defense. That's 78 horrors with 91 dead. On a different randomly chosen weekend, the count might shake out differently.
You can get killed throwing your daughter a 17th birthday party, if your angry estranged husband shows up. Without a gun, you might have an angry confrontation and maybe some tears. With a handgun, the birthday girl in Grapevine, Texas, lost her mother and father in a murder-suicide, police said.
Or you can get killed buying a taco from a vendor on the street in Los Angeles, if you get into an argument with the wrong person, and that person has a gun.
Or catching a train: A bystander was killed at a Bay Area Rapid Transit station in San Leandro, Calif., when a couple of gangs started trading shots.
You can get killed spending an afternoon with grandma. Just as the president was beginning his inaugural address and talking about making children safe, a gunman in Cocoa, Fla., burst into a home before a children's birthday party, shooting to death the mother of several of the children and seriously wounding their grandmother.
Or visiting a strip club. A U.S. Army soldier from Oklahoma's Fort Sill was killed outside a strip club during a dispute over a woman.
Manatee County Sheriff's Office
James Brady, 26, was shot and killed in Bradenton, Fla., Jan. 20, as he and two other masked men attempted to rob a resident in his carport, police said. One alleged robber, Jared Lee, has been charged with felony murder in Brady's death. Authorities are seeking a third man, Charles Jones.
You can get killed for what may seem like like a pretty good reason, if, as the National Rifle Association’s Wayne LaPierre put it after the Newtown shooting, you're a “bad guy with a gun” who happens to run into a “good guy with a gun.” There were two shootings by citizens that apparently were justified over the long weekend, including one by a man in Bradenton, Fla., who was ready with his own handgun and a concealed weapons permit when three armed robbers wearing masks confronted him and his roommate in their carport, according to police. He killed one of them, and authorities determined it was in self-defense. There also were three shootings by police officers that have tentatively been ruled as justified, including one in which an ex-con was shot dead after he threatened to kill his hostage following an armed robbery.
Las Vegas Police
Las Vegas Police Lt. Hans Walters, 52, killed his wife, former police officer Kathryn Michelle Walters, and their 5-year-old son, Maximilian, called 911 to confess and then set his house on fire on Jan. 21, according to police. Walters killed himself with the handgun as police moved in.
But as we saw last week when a former Los Angeles police officer allegedly went on a murderous rampage against fellow law enforcement officers, the “good guys” aren’t immune to the demons that trigger gun violence. Over the inaugural weekend, a Las Vegas police lieutenant used a handgun to kill his wife, herself a former police officer, and their 5-year-old son, before killing himself, according to police, just as the president was taking his seat on the West Front terrace of the U.S. Capitol on Monday morning.
You can get killed when your fists are outgunned, like the 22-year-old man who his family said was standing up for his friends in a brawl, when someone else pulled a gun and shot him dead, according to police. They were in Torrance, Calif., attending a punk rock festival headlined by a band called "Aggression."
You can become an ironic headline, like the 20-year-old man in Lafayette, La., who was shot dead about 60 yards from the Martin Luther King Jr. recreation center, on Monday, the day when Dr. King's legacy of nonviolence was being celebrated. That shooting occurred about the time the Obamas left the White House for their inaugural ball.
Or you can be ignored as just another victim of a street crime or a drug deal, barely making the local newspapers if you're killed in a "confrontation at a mobile home park" or "shot and killed in an argument in a parking lot."
#####
One of the surprises in our snapshot of gun violence was how young many of the victims were.
Oregon State Police
Kayla Ann Hendrickson, 16, was killed alongside an Oregon highway on Jan. 19, by her boyfriend, Jacob Allen Green, 24, after an argument, according to police. Green committed suicide near the California border, they said.
Twenty of the 91 were too young to buy a beer at a baseball game. There's the 16-year-girl in Oregon named Kayla, who was shot to death by the highway, apparently by her 24-year-old boyfriend, who then shot and killed himself with the handgun, according to police. The 6-year-old girl in Cleveland — her name was Navaeh, and her family called her "Nae Nae" — who somehow got her hands on what police said was the illegal handgun of her felon father, and shot herself in the face. The 18-year-old in Baton Rouge, Terrance, who was playing with a .357 Magnum; when it went off, the bullet missed him, and hit his 2-year-old brother, Travin, in the chest.
It's hard to miss how male the victims are: Out of 91 dead, 75 were men or boys. And the men were even more likely to be the ones pulling the trigger.
There's no way to count them all, but the press accounts of these deaths are sprinkled with deadly encounters fueled by drugs and alcohol. We didn't trace the race or ethnicity of victims or shooters for this project; though research indicates that blacks and Hispanics are more likely to be involved in gun violence. But the cases over this weekend were not limited to "urban" violence, with the deaths happening in cities and small towns and suburbs across many class and ethnic groups.
Looking through the deaths from just that one weekend, one wonders how many of these deaths could have been prevented by the gun-control and gun-safety changes that are being discussed in Washington. There are no easy answers, but one can draw an overall conclusion: Because the types of gun deaths vary greatly, so the solutions would have to vary as well.
David Hemenway, a professor of health policy and management at the Harvard School of Public Health, says it will require a national mindset shift to make big inroads into the number of gun deaths, similar to the change that occurred in how child abuse – a condition once considered so endemic that it couldn’t be addressed – was viewed after new laws against it were passed in the 19th and 20th centuries.
"If it was in your safety to have a gun in the home, people in public health would try to get you to own a gun," he said last month at a forum on gun violence sponsored by the Harvard School of Public Health and the Reuters news agency. "But what evidence we have is that it's against your self interest."
Improvement in mental health efforts, as proposed by the president, might make a difference, particularly in the 12 suicides and murder-suicides. But many of the cases will forever remain a mystery.
Warwick, R.I., Police Capt. Robert Nelson, who is investigating the murder-suicide of a longtime married couple on the MLK Day weekend, said the law enforcement system is set up to find and punish wrongdoers, not determine root causes: “We don’t have clear motive, and you know, you rarely do,” he told NBC News. “… As seen around the country, when someone kills somebody else then kills themselves as a result of that, you very rarely have any clear motive.”
In the Griego family massacre in New Mexico, as in the Newtown school shooting, there still is no clear understanding of what may have driven a young man to commit mass murder. Nehemiah Griego, 15, is facing murder charges in adult court. Police say the minister's son shot his mother and three younger siblings with a .22-caliber rifle as they lay in their beds early on that Saturday, then waited to shoot his father with the father's military-style AR-15 rifle.
What about the proposal to take "weapons of war" — or assault-type weapons — off the streets, as Obama put it? Police are reluctant to give out details of the type of weapon used in a crime, because that's the sort of fact that they can use when interrogating witnesses and suspects. You'll see a lot of "unknown" for gun type on our map, and we don't have reliable information in most deaths about whether a gun was purchased or owned legally. There are several cases in which guns were not possessed legally.
The weekend of gun violence does leave an impression that few crimes are committed with the assault weapons whose legality is being debated in Washington. We saw one Detroit homicide where a witness said the gun was an AK-47, but police won't say one way or another. And Nehemiah Griego is said to have used a .22-caliber rifle, then a .223-caliber military-style AR-15 semi-automatic rifle.
Most of the killing, however, is done with handguns that are not on the political radar, one or two victims at a time, not crimes that depend on high-capacity magazines with more than 10 bullets.
“Certainly I’m not naive enough to say that if we were to ban military-style assault rifles and if we were to ban high-capacity magazines, that we’re not going to have killings or murders," said George Gascón, the San Francisco district attorney, an advocate of banning those weapons and high-capacity magazines. He was discussing the death of Daniel Colon, 44, who was killed with an unknown weapon on the morning of the inauguration, as he was walking home with his cousin from a bar where he had celebrated the football victory by the 49ers. "All we’re saying is that we can reduce the mayhem, and we can have greater control to make sure that the people that own weapons do so in a lawful fashion.”
Accidental shootings of children may be the most preventable, when children get their hands on guns that adults have not secured.
In McDonough, Ga., where the mother was asleep, the sheriff's office says the mother had let the children handle her .38-caliber revolver earlier in the evening, when it was unloaded. Sometime in the night, one of the boys loaded the gun.
The mother was awakened around 2:30 a.m. by a gunshot.
The mother's 14-year-old son had pointed the gun at his 15-year-old brother's chest and squeezed the trigger, the sheriff’s office said. The sheriff and the district attorney haven't released the names of the boys, and say they haven't decided whether to charge the brother with a crime. The sheriff's office said it didn't consider charging the grieving mother, because her gun was legally owned.
Many gun owners say they need their guns to be at hand and ready in case of an intruder breaking in during the night. "You try to look at the science," Hemenway, the Harvard professor, said at the gun violence forum. "There's no evidence at all suggesting that having the gun that you can get within two seconds matters more than the gun you can get within 10 seconds. ... There is a huge amount of evidence that having an unsecured gun leads to all sorts of death in the family."
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Looking at the gun deaths across the land, on just one weekend, is a reminder how ingrained the gun culture is in America, a large part of the story the country tells about itself, especially in the way its young men find identity.
Consider Jason "Cowboy" Monson, the freshman from the University of Idaho who went down to the police station to get his gun back.
On Friday, just before our weekend clock began, Jason's roommate spoke with his resident adviser in the dorm, saying he was afraid because Jason was keeping his Desert Eagle handgun under his pillow.
Jason was raised on a small horse farm in Middleton, Idaho, hunting and fishing, playing football for a Christian school. He was raised around guns. Jason's father is a county sheriff's patrol sergeant, and his mother is a former Boise police officer. (His parents did not respond to a request from NBC News for an interview.) Jason won a national speech competition with 4H, and was studying communications. He was also in the Air Force ROTC and hoped to serve his country. He had a new girlfriend and a sense of humor, and posted a lot of funny stuff on his Facebook page.
His online summary of himself was unassuming: "im a total cowboy. I hunt cowboy mounted shoot and drive an old ford diesel. Ive broken several bones and most recently chainsawed my foot, that was a great two months, insert sarcasm. I own several guns and will be in the ROTC at the u of I this fall. any questions message me."
Family photo
Jason Monson aims a blank pistol at the camera. Jason, who grew up on a small horse farm in Idaho, was active in Cowboy Mounted Shooting, which uses blanks.
Cowboy Mounted Shooting looks like a lot of fun. (Watch a primer on YouTube.) The riders train skilled horses and compete on an obstacle course, wearing a Western long-sleeved shirt and a cowboy hat and shooting guns loaded with powder cartridges--blanks--at ballooons. Jason had already won a couple of belt buckles. One of his fellow competitors described him as "very nice, respectful, personable and outgoing." It's a great sport for someone who likes people, horses, and guns.
When the roommate reported the gun, Jason was not at the dorm. The school called the city police, and an officer came and took the gun away. The police chief in Moscow (for non-Idahoans: that's "MOS-ko"), David Duke, said there was no hint that Jason had made any threat against anyone, and Jason wasn't in a whole lot of trouble.
After all, this is Idaho, where guns are freely allowed with no registration, and one can openly carry a gun without any permit. Jason had violated no criminal law by bringing his handgun to his dorm room, the police chief said. It was against the school rules to have it there — students have to keep their guns in the central gun locker provided by the school. Jason could have faced student judicial charges, but it wasn't a criminal matter.
When Jason got back to the dorm, his roommate had been moved to another room, and Jason was told that his gun had been confiscated. He called the Moscow police about 10 p.m. to get his gun back, and the officer asked him to come down to the station. He came down about 1 a.m., and the officer said he could have his gun, but not until Tuesday, after the MLK holiday, so he'd have a chance to lock it up at school.
At 8:46 a.m. local time Sunday morning, just as the Obama family was participating in a day of service by fixing up an elementary school in the nation's capital, Moscow police got another call from the University of Idaho, from the same dorm.
One of Jason's suitemates had found him, shot in the head, next to notes he'd written to his family.
Idaho has one of the highest rates of suicides in the country, mostly from guns. It also was the only state in the union without its own certified hotline with counselors trained in suicide prevention; a hotline opened in November, but it's open only Monday through Thursday, 9 to 5. Chief Duke says he gets a call about suicide on campus every couple of years or so.
It turned out that the Desert Eagle .45 was not Jason's only gun. Sometime in the night, he'd gone out to his pickup truck for his Smith and Wesson Model 66 .357-caliber revolver.
'Flashpoint: Guns in America,' an NBC News special report
In his obituary, his parents took the opportunity to plead against gun control: "Let us drag the evil hiding in the darkness of the most dangerous places on earth: Gun free zones."
Jason's photo with his obituary shows Cowboy Monson with a big grin, wearing a black hat and astride a reddish-brown horse at a canter. Jason is looking directly at the camera, where he is pointing his blank pistol.
That image is the profile photo atop his Facebook page, too, now and perhaps forever, along with the cover image of two semi-automatic rifles criss-crossed over the U.S. Constitution.
Read Part 2: The faces behind the numbers: Six victims of long weekend's violence
Also contributing to this story and map for NBC News: Daniel Arkin, Meredith Birkett, John Brecher, David Friedman, Kriss Chaumont, Tracy Connor, Polly DeFrank, Matthew DeLuca, Miranda Leitsinger, Shezad Morani, Lisa Riordan Seville, Jonathan Sweeney and Lisa Wilkins.
More from Open Channel:
- Obama administration deliberating more cuts in nuclear weapons, sources say
- EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americans
- After ethics complaint, Sen. Menendez pays $58,500 for flights to Dominican Republic
Follow Open Channel from NBCNews.com on Twitter and Facebook
Hello folks, here we go again. Obama has put it out there through his DOJ that he will and can assassinate anyone he chooses without due process. We have become a police state. All this media attention is designed to build up support to attack our 2nd Amendment. The 4th is gone as a result of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA). What's next the First Amendment.
And that it just so happens that now the US government is going after civilian’s ability to protect themselves FROM THE GOVERNMENT!? A new leak seems to indicate that Obama’s new litmus test for military commanders is whether or not they are willing to fire on US citizens.
“A Little Gun History
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
You won’t see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.
During World War II the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!”
Here’s Thomas Jefferson on the right to bear arms:
“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms… disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
TrustVerify
Quit posting the same ridiculous information repeatedly. It is a very narrow view of history and is not very enlightening.
NONE of the countries you listed have our Constitution. NONE. Our Constitution prevents the federal government from taking the actions you are ranting about.
NONE of the suggested gun control measures currently being discussed in the federal government involved taking away weapons from people who have them. NONE. Your are engaging in the same ignorant fear campaign as the NRA.
Most of the gun responsibility legislation being currently discussed involves requiring BACKGROUND CHECKS for every gun purchase. Why would anyone except someone who is a criminal, mentally ill or on the terrorist watch list worry about that? Which category(ies) describes you?
Why not re-visit the text of the Second Amendment? It contains the phrase "WELL REGULATED" for a reason. The Second Amendment is an amendment to our Constitution, which describes how our democratic process works. It makes sense to me, then, that we have an OBLIGATION to decide through our democratic process how we chose to regulate gun ownership rights in this country. Do you have a problem with that?
Hello Don, let me preface my comment by stating the I'm a political atheist, I don't care which political religion anyone wants to attach themselves to. Anyone paying attention can see where all this media attention is going. They aren't posting wall to wall stories on gun violence for no reason. Obama is after our 2nd Amendment and that is a fact.
Enjoy your slumber!
back to the subject.... while sad, the gun violence this weekend is completely dwarfed by deaths caused by:
alcohol
drugs
smoking
obesity
cancer
accidents
and a bunch of other things..... guns are simply an easy target at the moment to fool people into giving up another right and take focus off of our lazy elected leaders.... and our media does these BS stories to support them.
it's way past time this country stops getting fooled by politicians showing smoke and mirrors and demands that they do their jobs, stop wasting our money, and stop eroding our rights
nobody who isnt a nut has a problem with serious background checks... just get it done if you guys are gonna do it (bans will waste months and never get done), then get back to your real jobs....
TrustVerify
Agree 100%. NBC continues to lead the pack for stirring up the anti gun movement with articles like this one. Why don't see how many people were killed by drunk drivers in a weekend and do a story on that. Or perhaps how many suicides occur every weekend.
TrustVerify
There is no truth in your statement that "Obama is after our 2nd Amendment and that is a fact." I guess you trusted the wrong source of information and failed to verify.
By the way, who signed the bill allowing firearms in national parks? I was not in favor of that, but it seems to me it expanded gun ownership rights.
One day people will wake up to the US reality of the highest gun slaughter rate in the developed western world and do something about it - its utter madness. The US gun death rate now exceeds 10,000 slaughtered a year - the UK ....
... 62 on last official figures. Even Germany with a more liberal gun law than UK "only" had 264 gun deaths ...
Time to do something, not trade personal arsenals for neighbours lives, so some gun fantasy can be enacted. It doesnt take much, and people will still have access to the guns they need for Protection, Sport, Hunting and Second Amendment et al.
Time to wake up and not sit in "Fortress Home" muttering "I'm ok, the hell with others" ........
To..don97524...obviously you are a schill and posted that because you are on internet watch for people who are trying to uphold our rights as a human being. to you, we are not animals so quit trying to act like we are stupid animals. The american people are waking up to what is REALLY going on here....so get out of our way!
Wow, the Progressive media is on a "Gun" roll to support Mr. Obama's around the Nation campaign tour.
I can hardly wait for Hillary's announcement that she will be running in 2016, then the media will shift into high gear to back her up because of her failed leadership in the Department of State.
Meanwhile, Hillary has a think tank to come up with something on "War on women" (posters and bumper stickers already made) since Obama did so well on waging war against women himself and still got re-relected.
For you folks on waging WAR against Gun ownership.....doesn't matter what you propose. You can completely elimnate law abiding citizens from owning guns, but the crooks and gang bangers will get them anyway. Idiots.
TrustVerify, Obama cannot kill anyone he wants to. If you read the document it pertains to Americans who is in bed with those terriosts groups that are out to destroy and hurt us. Second, your pistol, or shot gun or your AR 15 is going to do a lot of good against a government with machine guns, flame throwers, tanks, motars, gernades and planes with bombs. Your living in your own little dream world with the rest of the gun nuts who say they have a weapon to defend themselves against their government. I'm sorry that your so scared and parnoid.
@don97524
In theory it shoul. But government has a tendancy of ignoring the Constitution when it gets in the way of its agenda. There are countless examples of this.
Banning magazines and "assault" weapons absolutely infringes upon the Second Amendment. Also, let's not forget how politicans like Cuomo and Feinstein have admitted that they would have no problems with forced confiscation programs if they thought they could get away with it. Make no mistake, they won't hesitate to do so when they feel the time is right. Rember, we're talking about the "never get a good crisis go to waste" crowd here.
A well regulated milita is a sepearte issue than the individual right to bear arms. The Second Amendment clearly states that, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shal not be infringed". What part of that don't you understand? It seems that you liberals are the ones who are constantly regurgitating the same old hogwash which has been debunked ad nausem.
Elaine Hawk
I'm really not sure what you are trying to say. Apparently it has something which is REALLY going on, but you failed to say what that is. All I am saying is that the Bill of Rights says that the right to bear arms should be well regulated and I believe that we should do that through a democratic process. What is it that you are against, the democratic process or just any regulation of gun rights?
Flat Iron
I understand ALL of the 2nd Amendment, including the WELL REGULATED part that you choose to ignore. You are not allowed to own a machine gun. That is because machine guns were outlawed in a democratic process in keeping with the "well regulated" part of the 2nd Amendment. At the time machine guns were outlawed, assault weapons did not exist.
The 2nd Amendment allows people to bear arms, but not any arms they want .... just the ones that are legal. We get to decide which ones are legal.
Hello David,
Those that have the intestinal fortitude to see what is happening knows why it is so important that we not allow our government to tamper with our 2nd Amendment rights. The evidence doesn’t get any clearer. No one has the illusion that they would win a battle against the military, it’s not about winning or losing, it’s about self respect. I would rather die standing then serving on my knees. People should not fear their government, the government should fear the people!
You have the gall to call us Patriots fearful, who are the ones standing up for our rights and who are the ones handing over their civil liberties for a little perceived security?
When Benjamin Franklin left Independence Hall just after the second drafting he was approached by a woman on the street and she asked, what manner of government have you bequeathed us? And Franklin said “a Republic Mam, if you can keep it”. The responsibility of a country is not in the hands of a privileged few. We are strong and we are free from tyranny as long as each one of us remembers his or her duty as a citizen whether it is to report a pot hole at the top of your street or lies at a State of the Union Address or standing up for our Constitutional rights. Speak out ask those questions, demand that truth. Democracy is not a free ride but this is where we live and if we do our job this is where our children will live.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that taking away assault style weapons and high capacity magazines in only a first step to "guaranteeing the safety of our children" They are easy targets because not many people have them and its true that, for the moment, nobody really needs them. That said, I can't help but notice that of the 91 deaths mentioned in this article only 1 of them involved an assault style weapon and there was no need for a high capacity magazine to kill one person. In other words the proposed bans put out by the obama administration would not have saved any of these people. Not one.
May I suggest that this is by design. Make no mistake, once these initial bans go into effect then you will see the Obama administration begin to take "heat" from the media because our streets are no safer. People continue to be killed with guns. This will of course "force" the administration into further action to "keep our children safe" and thus we will lose our handguns, followed by repeating firearms. The end result will likely be that only certain weapons specifically used for hunting will be allowed at all, and even then it will become so cost prohibitive that only the very wealthy will be able to own them.
In general, any law designed to keep us safe is also designed to limit our freedom. In this case the freedom being limited is a right specifically spelled out in the bill of rights. It is not the governments job to keep us safe. It is their job to protect our freedom. They are not doing their job.
What I am trying to say is this....yes Obama is after our gun rights, just like England and Australia has taken away ALL guns! Don't be naive! You act like this has never been done before! So wake up to what is really going on here. Hitler took away guns before he went in and dragged away people to prison camps! Did you know that they are hundreds of FEMA camps in America? they were made to put YOU in after they take away guns and destroy our economy and make out that veterens, people who believe in GOD and gun owners are terrorists....is that plain enough for you to understand now????? Hitler made his army believe that the Jews were animals and not human beings! So wake up out of your coma! DEFEND our constituition and quit believing the media who are under the pressure of the people running the country to only post what they want you to hear and know!
A hypothetical:
What if the founding fathers had felt that it was important for everyone to have transportation and the everyone had a right to own a horse (the mode of transportation in that time.) So they wrote an amendment to the constitution that read: "A person's right to transportation shall not be infringed". Would we be having this debate about registering cars and licensing drivers?
Elaine
None of the proposed firearms legislation under consideration takes away gun rights. The ALL GUNS argument is a batch of fear mongering lies from the NRA and you fall for those lies. There is no chance that guns will be taken away, but with luck we will have an effective system of background checks to prevent people who should not have guns from having even more guns.
That lie about FEMA camps is a conspiracy theory which has been proven to be wrong. The fact that you believe that garbage is evidence that you are ignorant about more than just the gun issue.
Hitler did not have to operate under the US Constitution so that stupid Hitler argument you right wing fringe conservatives keep using is completely bogus. I suggest you quit listening to Glenn Beck before you get brain damage.
Oh for the love of God!!!! Have we really come to this? When will you report on mental health crisis that NO ONE wants to talk about.......or do anything about????????
How about we report how many children went to bed hungry last night? Or how many women were raped last weekend?
@fedupwithfed: because if they report on rapes then we have to start talking about outlawing penises and our president probably still likes his. Though to be fare, the outlawing of the penis in order to prevent rape makes just as much sense as outlawing guns to prevent crime. It's not about the person committing the crime, it's about the tool they used to commit it. It's not the man that is bad, it's just his penis.
Hello Elaine, what was once considered conspiracy is proving to be fact. They are making kids in Texas wear RFID chips.
While the lemmings stand by while their civil liberties are taken away they can thank us later. Don calls people who speak truth to power paranoid. You say the government only wants common sense control of guns yet you go to the airports and allow the TSA to molest you. You allow the Patriot Act, FISA, NDAA, NDRP to get enacted and you don't even know what's in those liberty stripping laws. You allow your government to use armed spy drones in American skies! You’ve give the government the authority to surveill you through any number of Federal agencies, have your phone and computer tapped, bank, medical, and private records accessed. You have given the government the authority to arrest you without gaining access to an attorney or a trial (NDAA). This isn’t paranoia this is fact! What’s next sheeple, if the MSM reports there is a suppository bomber will you all line up to bend over at the airports or any public place. What about what is going on in Texas?
In San Antonio, Texas the Northside Independent School District is now experimenting with “locator” chips in student ID badges on two campuses, allowing administrators to track the whereabouts of 4,200 students with GPS-like precision. If you don’t believe me look it up!
Administrators say the chips make students safer and will help boost attendance records that are used to calculate badly needed state funding.
A student, Hernandez, has filed a law suit against Northside – the fourth-largest school district in Texas – argues that the ID rule violates her religious beliefs. Her family says the badge is a “mark of the beast” that goes against their religion. As a result of her refusal, the school is transferring her which will put an undue hardship on her and her family. This also sends a clear message to anyone who doesn't conform to this civil liberties violation.
But U.S. District Judge Orlando Garcia on Tuesday denied a request to stop her from being transferred, saying the badge requirement “has an incidental effect, if any, on (Hernandez’s) religious beliefs.”
It is starting folks, first a GPS chip in your ID then a RFID chip under your skin. I’m just waiting to hear the sheeple say, IT’S FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY. The sheeple will fall to their knees in support and call anybody a tinfoil paranoid schizophrenic who doesn’t allow this to happen to their child. Let’s see how the propaganda disinformation trolls spin this one!
Where are the stats of the people whose lives were saved because of guns? My husband survived a car jacking when he showed his gun last week without firing a shot. The police were called, but no story in the papers! It was like move on folks, no story here....
TrustVerify
I have no idea whether the story about Texas schools is true, but if it is you can blame Republicans who dominate in that state. No federal legislation requires what you are talking about.
TrustVerify,
The Black Helicopters are NOT just over the horizon.
School badges are not quite like implanted chips for gods sake. You can't have unadulterated Freedom in school. They're children, you want them under control.
There's a stretch! Come on! Don't you want the school to know if the kids are sneaking off? I do!
An RFID in an ID card is not a GPS tracking device, and they CAN'T install an RFID under your skin without consent. Parents DO do that to their kids on their own.
The Black Helicopters aren't coming. This IS tinfoil hat stuff.
Hey FedupwithFed...(#1.19)..."
Oh for the love of God!!!! Have we really come to this? When will you report on mental health crisis that NO ONE wants to talk about.......or do anything about????????
How about we report how many children went to bed hungry last night? Or how many women were raped last weekend?"
___________________________
Just BAN Mental Un-Health, Hungry Children and Raped Women....What's-a-matter-for-you....Liberal Solutions work for everything, don'tcha know ????
Rhino40..(#1.20)..."It's not the man that is bad, it's just his penis."
THAT was great !!!
Oh, for hell's sake . . . why doesn't NBC just put a dot on the national map for every traffic death . . . or how about every death related to anything other than "natural". Like they actually give a rats ass about who died or why anyway. Such BS, it makes me want to throw up.
ONE BIG DECOY to take the attention OFF our economy and foreign affairs. It's another Obama shill game.
And how many of these crimes with guns were criminals v criminals (see Chicago gun deaths)? How many lives were saved because of guns? That's a difficult stat for the liberal press to document, isn't it?
Hey Don, Where the hell did you read that? The 2nd amendment says nothing about our right to keep and bear arms being well regulated. It's Militia.
As passed by the Congress:
Don" You left out "Well Regulated Milita", and you have a very narrow view of things, Obama isnt who he says he is and he is after more than the Guns, so try getting your head out of the sand and looking at whats truly going on here. I would assume you are one of the Traitors who sold there souls to Master Obama for the Freebees he offered for your Vote. People like you are part of the Problem, and need to just shut the hell up.
There you are again going after the 1st amendment. How very American of you.
Guns need to be well regulated just like cars are.
Elaine
If you believe the conspiracy theory about FEMA camps nothing you say can be taken seriously. You are obviously too easily duped by the ridiculous information you receive from the right wing fringe media.
The following is quoted from a more reliable source:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/FEMA_concentration_camps
Elaine Hawk - Please explain to me what a FEMA camp is? Everything I have Googled comes up with a website that is nothing more than some right-wing, conspiracy laden site in an attempt to scare people into thinking the government is going to start interring people, along the lines of what happened to the Japanese-Americans in WWII. This whole notion there are hundreds of FEMA camps across the nation is ludicrous. If you knew what FEMA actually does, and not what these nutcase website and a certain TV cable news network tells you they are, you'd think for yourself, learn the facts. But no, that would be too convenient. Uninformed people don't want to learn the truth. They want it told to them by like minded, feeble thinking individuals.
You're right, Don at #1.1. None of the countries that TrustVerify mentioned in comment #1 has our Constitution. At the same time the good ole USA doesn't have the same Constitution it had 50 or 60 years ago, either. Every few years we get a bunch of activist Supreme Court Justices that re-write the Constitution to reflect what THEY think it should say, regardless of what the original signers said back when it was written. The Constitution is no longer "of the people, by the people and for the people." It is now "of the power brokers, by the power brokers and for the power brokers." I guarantee you that the founding fathers never saw the need to strip search someone if they wanted to travel from New York to Philadelphia or Boston like the brown shirts we have in the airports do now. You have the same mental capacity and outlook as the appeasers did back in the '30s while they sat on their thumbs and let Hitler take over Europe and murder millions of people. I can't help but believe that if the Jews and the other oppressed people of Europe had been allowed to have any type of weapons for protection then the Holocaust would never had taken place. Wake up! Our rights are being eroded everyday and it is just snowballing. You people don't want to acknowledge that Bundy, Gacy, McVeigh and the other serial killers and mass murderers didn't use guns.
Hello SmBusOwner, tin foil aye, that's what people were saying when it was being reported that Habeas Corpus (right to a trial) was being eliminated. Obama implemented the 2012 NDAA and our 4th amendment bit the dust.
Tin foil conspiracists was being blathered when people started buying guns like hot cakes when they said Obama is going to lay siege to the 2nd Amendment. Look what's happening.
"The Black helicopters aren't coming" how about the Black Helicopter drills in Minneapolis and Denver or were the local papers just lying.
Our country is bankrupt, we have a 16.5 trillion dollar debt which will be raised in May, the President is asking that the debt ceiling be removed altogether. In 2012 we were breaking records for monthly deficit spending. We have to keep our interest rates at 0% just to service our debt. We are printing 85 billion (QE3 40 billion and Operation Twist 45 billion) open ended to keep our economy and stock market propped up. Foreign countries are asking for their gold back that we don't have.
And the Coup De Grace
Was it conspiracy when people were saying that Obama was going to murder American citizens without a trial. History shows 3 American citizens have been assassinated by the Judge, Jury and Executioner in Chief. The "Memo" that was sent out regarding the kill list is so vague that anyone could end up on it. Remember if your considered a terrorist, the NDAA doesn't require any justification or response from the "authorities".
That is but a few reasons people are a little edgy about anybody trying to redefine the 2nd Amendment.
Conspiracy, Tin Foil, I think that ship has sailed!
Why not offer a million dollar reward for the killer(s), oh, never mind, he's just an individual (maybe Hispanic at that), you wouldn't offer a million dollar reward for his killer(s)!!
Really? Seems like all your bitching "rants" are against President Obama and his administration. Maybe it's time for you to leave.
hickory
I am perfectly willing to admit that guns are not necessary to commit murder. Guns, however, make murder easy and they should be in the hands of only those people who can be trusted not to murder. Failing to address a major cause of unnecessary death just because there are other deaths is stupid, and I think you know that.
By the way, our Constitution has not changed and gun rights are actually much more liberal than they were fifty years ago ...... and the weapons available are more dangerous.
Hello folks, you are witnessing first hand how the media is used to manipulate us "peasants" to move in the direction their corporate and government masters direct them. Their problem right now is that they don't have enough paid Shills to off set the common sense of We The People. Their is a war going on for our minds and if we are smart enough to put our faith in our founding fathers who gave us the Greatest Document ever devised and written we will regain our God given rights. When in doubt we can always rally around our Constitution because really folks, what else do we have that protects us. I'll wrap myself in this document every day of the week and die in it if I have to. May your God Bless America and the proud people who stand up for our Constitution!
It seems really strange to me that there were no gun deaths in Chicago during the weekend NBC chose to report on.
I find it funny how they always use "gun violence" when a crime is committed with a firearm. It's never "knife violence", "bat violence", or "automobile violence". People do kill and commit suicide with cars. The only thing I agree with in this article is keep your guns locked up and away from children. With the trigger locks and gun safes available there is absolutely no reason not to secure them.
WOWWWWWWW!!!!! CAN YOU BE ANY MORE BIASED PMSNBC?
Hmmmmmmm, I read the article TWICE and I couldn’t find one case where a gun shot someone by itself.
But each of the above events involved a PERSON shooting another PERSON.
,,, men are more likely to shoot someone,,,
,,, one person killed another,,,
,,, men more likely to be pulling the trigger,,,
,,, someone shot him dead,,,
,,, 16-year-girl shot to death by her 24-year-old boyfriend,,,
,,, someone kills somebody else,,,
,,, 14-year-old squeezed the trigger,,,
As Barrack Hussein continues to trample all over our great Constitution the Liberal/Progressive complicit media and the unwashed masses that submit to him continue to allow their indoctrination.
This lengthy diatribe to nowhere is typical of the manipulative media weakening the will of the useful idiots who have been convinced they are unable to survive without the government taking care of them. They never question the motive of why the government continues to usurp our Constitution and its Rights.
Why doesn’t PMSNBC investigate how many of the gun violence fatalities are due to drugs, alcohol, emotions (crime of passion), poverty, how many occur in sanctuary cities, mental illness and other factors? I guess anything resembling real journalism has left our great nation.
I wonder why the press is so resistant to performing the duties their profession demands.
Wake UP Everybody!! This whole SCENARIO is provided compliments of our corporations and their PoliticoHenchmen/HenchWomen. America Will Have A Universal National HealthCare System With Fully Equipped psychiatric outReach teams having "Examine and Retain Authority"...Everyone of those gun killings was comitted by NutJobs aka Criminally Insane people Who should have been Locked UP Long, Long, Long Ago. Big Pharma is laughing Up their Sleeves at US. They and their lapdog congressional thugs Closed down Our Federal and State mental Hospitals in order to sell their wothless "psychiatric management" Pills. And the criminally insane are doing their Mule Work for them.
There IS NOT going to be "Gun Round Up Time" This is all a Smokescreen for what Must Be Done to help America. We Need An American Universal National HealthCare System Like Our SANE ALLYS Have.
Excuse me, but without taking risks, we will have no freedom whatsoever. They are undeniably linked.
Good work MSNBC, it's about time the gun violence in this country gets a graphical representation, but I get a sense from the posts above that your action is stepping on a few toes. To be fair a similar map should be produced for motor vehicle deaths, drownings, drug overdoes and so forth but I take it that this product requires a good deal of effort. I'm curious as to why this sort of thing isn't put on line by the FBI or some other federal agency. My guess is that it would have to be funded, which would require congressional action and be subject to NRA lobbying. Now that a private news organization has taken a tentative step they and their lackeys are tasked to raise bloody hell in the comment section. Cry me a river, LOL.
I really LOVE how people try to throw in figures from other countries when comparing gun violence. Ok, England only had 58 gun deaths last year, so what, England also only has 3 million people compared to 330 million in the US. Not a real comparison. Same with Germany. If you takes those numbers per capita they aren't too far off from the deaths in the states and considering the UK allowes no gun ownership anymore (I am in the UK right now) those numbers don't say much for banning guns!
Why can't the MSM focus on something else, like the economy or the only POTUS in history to not be vetted? I forgot, the MSM can only report what the White House agenda lets them! So much for freedom of speech!
"England only has 3 million people".... LOL, no wonder the rest of the world thinks Americans are stupid - they're RIGHT!!
Wow! That map says it all. And in ONE weekend.....incredible.
don,
Have you received your 30 pieces of stimulus gold yet? NBCAl-kidia will be running a week of propaganda against the 2nd Amendment right all week.
Yes, people die everyday. WE have 330 million people in this country. The government can speak all the rhetoric they want to draw attention off of our crumbling economy. The fact still remains that nothing they are proposing or can get across will do anything to curb the amounts of deaths we see from guns.
A Ban on Assault rifles will do nothing considering like 1% of gun deaths are from an "Assault Rifle." Also companies will just make guns that are just as effective as an assault rifle but wont fit under that tittle. A ban on Magazine sizes is hilarious if you have anyone of half intelligence living around you. I know multiple individuals who have been crafting their own Magazines for years (Magazines are hilariously easy to make BTW). They are hoping and praying for the Magazine ban to take effect so they can make a fortune.
All the proposed bans are going to do is create a black market that the gov't cant track or tax, anger a large portion of the population, and accomplish absolutely nothing in the way of gun deaths. So why the hell are they wasting everyone time with this @!$%#? That is the question everyone should be asking.
proud- smoke screen to the real issues of the day, and trustverify is 100% RIGHT PEOPLE, they have trampled the he!! out of our constitution already(next step guns,after that KISS THAT 1RST AMENDMENT GOODBYE) and they're not done yet. People standing up for this administrations blatant removal of rights are not DESERVING of our freedoms,it is insane that anyone thinks this new agenda will have any other effect then give this goverment the oppotunity to remove the rest of our freedoms (all of you complain how crooked this goverment is yet fail to truly acknowlege this disasterous path you want to bring us down),i have to ask...why has homeland security bought all those hollow points? and do not say they are necessary for war,their jurisdiction is the USA only and Geneva convention prevents using this ammo for our soldiers...but not on us! The other unconstitutional items he mentioned should ALL BE REPEALED,why did Obama resign the patriot act? doesn't this constitutional lawyer realise the fact that it is unconstitutional? I think he believes he can write a better one. You people wanting this crap will be NO SAFER from violent people(fact of life...there are people with no cares for ANYONE out there,get used to it!)
OK so let's have some truth and honesty here NBC. According to highly regarded studies by Dr. Gary Kleck cited in journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine and American Journal of Criminal Law, with knowing rates of gun violence by day of week we should expect that in this same weekend close to 40,000 crimes were thwarted by guns including countless attempted murders. And in case you're wondering, that 40,000 is more than the number of felonies committed with guns. You know...if we're being honest and factual here.
If you want to prove to me that guns are the greatest evil, show me all the deaths that happened during the same timeframe with the weapon(s) used. That includes knives, bats, vehicles, rocks, tire irons, bare hands, ropes, plastic, lamps, candlesticks, suicide by overdose, etc. Then, if guns are truly the primary culprit, I’ll back you in your desire for greater regulation. All you’ve proven is that people died because someone chose to pull a trigger and that’s nothing new nor is it extraordinary. People have been dying at the hands of another since the beginning of time and most did not die by a gun.
Don,
Guns are already regulated. The question you need to ask is if your tighter regulations will prevent any of the deaths you read about in this article. I don't think tighter regulations would have prevented even 1 of these deaths from occurring. Hell, one of the gun murderers was a policeman who killed his ex-wife and 5 yr old child. The police are supposed to be armed. How would this have been prevented?? It was stupid for the author of this article to even include that story.
To me, gun murders are going to happen regardless of what laws are in place. If you think about it, the idea of banning guns is like trying to ban alcohol or abortions. You can outlaw these actions but people will do them anyway. All you'll do is create a black market for them. So riddle me that?
Don97524:
you are either very STUPID, or you work for the FEDS!!!!
It's NOT the GUNS, It's the PEOPLE!!!
Some are CRAZY!!!
These deaths are sad. The decision by NBC to run a story (actually a week long series) about gun deaths coincides with the national debate on gun violence going on right now, so I wouldn't say this is necessarily pushing a hidden agenda by NBC. In fact, it pretty clearly shows how far off base the current administration is on preventing gun violence with their proposed gun control measures, especially with regard to assault rifles and high capacity magazines. Hand guns are used in over 30 times more murders each year then all rifles, including assault rifles, each year. What is the logic in banning assault rifles?
The only way to prevent gun murders through gun control is to completely ban all guns and confiscate them all. Is anybody actually in favor of that? If not, then the much more logical and practical solution is to examine the root causes of murders and address those.
Clearly not! NBCs goal was to vilify guns and anybody that chooses to own one. This is clearly not a case of impartial journalism. This is slanted journalism with a clear anti-2nd amendment agenda!
Absolute rubbish.
Even more absolute rubbish.
I highly doubt you are in England right now, and if you are then you must be completely and utterly oblivious to anything that is going on around you.
1. There are more than 62 million people in the UK. There are more than 53 million in England and Wales (the UK, excluding Scotland and N Ireland).
2. Guns are NOT completely outlawed. Many types are banned, yes, but not all.
3. There are MORE guns, legally owned, in the UK (as of 2011, last figures I could find) than there were before the handgun ban in 97.
4. The homicide rate, per 1000 people, is MUCH lower.
5. Don't even think of coming back with anything about violent crime rates, because violent crime is calculated completely differently, with corporate manslaughter and harassment (among other things) being included violent crimes in the UK. It would be comparing apples and oranges.
The vast majority of people who want to talk about gun control in the UK (and Australia) seem to have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
A little digging gave me these numbers. 8 countries of Western Europe vs United States.
Country Population Gun deaths
UK 63,181,775 158
Germany 81,923,000 901
France 65,635,000 1969
Italy 60,835,000 779
Spain 46,815,916 295
Poland 38,538,447 100
Netherlands 16,775,273 77
Sweden 9,551,781 140
Total 383,291,937 4,420
USA 331,000,000 33,762
FlatIron720, #1.11- What is a "Well Regulated Militia" as opposed to an Individual? (Not being facetious, seriously, I'm curious and would like to know? :)
Don, first of all, please stop wrongfully including the WELL REGULATED aspect of the 2nd Amendment in your posts as it has nothing to do with the types of arms one may bear; as you seem to be intelligent enough to know these words only refer to the importance of maintaining a militia.
Secondly, stop with the lies. You and I are actually allowed to own a fully automatic machine gun as long as the fees are paid, papers are filed with the ATF, and we qualify under the criterion for owning such weapons. The truth is that after WWII soldiers were bringing home Thompson sub-machine guns, Tommy guns, and both organized crime and law enforcement used them. My point being, these were the assault weapons of the day, they existed, they weren't outlawed, they were regulated.
Lastly, there are no limiting restrictions within the 2nd that would support your premise; nothing that says "...just the ones that are legal." Making any illegal is an infringement and inviolate. Your argument here is deceitfully shallow, your agenda is unconstitutional, and misguided at best.
"..., the right to bear arms shall not be infringed."
The debate is important; however, your arguments herein are specious and wrought with untruths. Whereas, to promote anything that supports any infringement is clearly unconstitutional. They are acts of tyranny against the American people; shamefully, this is especially true for those who have sworn an oath to uphold our Constitution.
Would it make you feel any better if they were all pushed out of windows instead?
David LG, #1.17- GREAT! hypothetical!!! Good angling to one of the subjects in the Article of "Ownership Responsibility". And I think, in the strictest sense, as "Stringent Limit", which is not, but should be at play there, the answer is NO.
TrustVerify, #1.21- FASCINATING!!! A little "off-topic" of this particular Article, except in the sense of Individual's Rights and RESPONSIBILITIES, I might add. I had no idea that there had been a ruling in that matter, although I was aware of the happenstance. I don't think the Judge has the Authority to make such a decision about "The Mark of the Beast", as in the Bible, and as to it being "incidental" (or not), as a matter of Law, given the First Amendment, never mind The Fourth! He certainly doesn't have the Authority to uphold UNconstitutional Violation. I hope they appeal that one!
And speaking of hardships, which are UNDUE BURDENS created by the violating of an Individual's Rights, I'm glad I decided to endure the UNDUE BURDENS of reading not only COLLAPSED THREADS, but also all the COLLAPSED COMMENTS UNDER THE COLLAPSED THREADS, or I wouldn't have known anything about this. (I'll be lucky if I get through even half these collapsed Threads, today!)
Thanks for bringing it. (I would love to have seen how the Lawyers presented it to the Judge, too!)
John-755418... Your comment suggests that 33,000 deaths per year in the United States by firearms are intentional. Just as many people are pushed out a window while others jump so to is it with firearms. Some are suicides, some are accidents and some are murders. What the numbers say on the other hand is that because our gun culture is so entrenched the fire-arm death rate of the US is 10 times greater than all of Europe, which even has a greater population. Why is that so? Is it because we have a 2nd amendment and they don't, or is a structural problem where local regulations are overridden by States Rights. In other words, in Europe it is much harder to obtain weapons in one country and smuggle them into another while a resident of Chicago need only drive to a neighboring state where a gun dealer will happily sell you a weapon. It is convenience that drives our fire-arms carnage. That drives fear which drives the trade of guns. Going after the bad guys will not slow this madness.
"Our journey is not complete until all our children, from the streets of Detroit to the hills of Appalachia to the quiet lanes of Newtown, know that they are cared for, and cherished, and always safe from harm."
"Always safe from harm."
Is there anyone who really believes that can be the journey's destination? Unfortunately, yes. Just trust us, your federal government! And that is the problem. The journey is SOLD to the people much as a dream. And some people BUY it.
TrustVerify, #1.35 and 1.38- EXCELLENT!!!!!
Phantom Beast, #1.42- EXCELLENTLY TRUE! (although not word for word agreeing on what the "Solution" should be)
FamousAmos-3755959, #1.47- E - X - C - E - L - L - E - N - T!!!!!!!!!
John-755418, #1.53- Yes, tighter regulations (as long as they're being enforced) would have helped. It seems like you're only looking at "tighter regulations" to mean only one or two things. And, also, I'm so glad you brought up that Police Officer in Las Vegas because I didn't have a chance to get to the comments after reading the story on that, but THAT POLICEMAN was the Epitome of A LOT having to do with "mind set" that is wrong in Mental UN-health! And he "acted it out", not only stunningly, but precisely!
Bill are you not in fear of getting a drone strike in you cubicle. Will now that you bough it up, here is my take on it NBC, as Obama's lap dog you don't put out a story that not tilted to Obama's agenda. In this case getting guns out of law biding citizens hands is. The press is not to give their bias point of view, but give the facts in front of them. That's why you have the ear of the government to give you information and pass it along to the people. The citizens of this country make decisions base on the information they receive from you the press. But if your going to distort and give us misinformation then the citizens of this country make bad decisions. Like voting Obama into a second term when you know as well as I do he should have lost. But back to the gun issue, we have all the gun laws we need, what we need is, when a gun is sold it is getting into the right hands, and you can only do that with back ground checks. You have people in this country that need help in coping with day to day living and as of today, I have not seen a story come out of NBC talking about these people. Example shooter at sandy hook should had help the first time the mother ask for it, report on that broken system. The things that would help as a news group you use your political bias to Ignore the obvious.
If you want to improve your viewers than report the new with out your or Obama bias as part of the story. Give the true information to the people and let them change the course of history not you. thats why the Constitution as we the people ate the start.
to Jwright-1317095:
If you would prefer the news cover more about drunk driving, here are a few facts on the subject you should contemplate. Drunk driving deaths have dropped nearly 50% in the last 20 years. Why? Because of stricter regulations, including raising the drinking age and reducing the legal limit for blood alcohol content while driving. Although you might think that dropping the legal limit would cause MORE people to be caught driving drunk (because what used to be okay is now considered "impaired"), the result was actually a dramatic decrease in drunk driving deaths. This didn't happen overnight, but a 50% reduction even over 20 years is HUGE, especially considering how prevalent the alcohol culture is in US society. This is a perfect example of how REGULATING a potentially dangerous activity can improve public safety. Prohibition didn't work, but increased restrictions and tougher penalties for breaking the law worked beautifully. Why are so many of you so insistent that stricter regulations on guns won't do any good? Nothing will change overnight, but tougher regulations (not prohibition) will save lives in the long run. And nothing will improve if we do nothing.
Seriously what is up with ALL the COLLAPSED POSTS???????? What the heck is the point of a comment section if half the posts are collapsed???? We can still read them anyway!!!!!!!! Seems if the collapsed posts basically are a mix of two varying opinions on a couple of issues. How about we just let everybody have their opportunity to have their say and not collapsed opinions just because we disagree with the opinion??? Every single one that I opened did not seem to have any really VALID reasons such as name-calling, profanity etc.. so how about everybody just get over their very childish attitudes in collapsing posts. This is still America, at least for now and the 1st amendment is still very much in effect. PLEASE be adults!!!!! Or is that just too much to ask????????????
Yes.
Also, you only quote the gun homicide rate. Of course it's higher here. But when you consider the overall homicide rate (US vs. Europe), this margin narrows greatly. The US is still ahead of Europe in this regard, admittedly.
I am completely against banning firearms because this would be a blatant violation of the 2nd amendment. Many are advocating for this sort of legislation and, to me, that's scary. When you tamper with one of the constitutional rights, you tamper with them all because if one can be repealed, then any of them can. Let that sink in for a minute.
TrustVerify, you are barking at the wrong tree. It was your hero, George "wmd" Bush who started it all with his bogus war on terror. So, how do you like it now?
Mystery Rhee:
Please give me an example from the article where stricter gun control measures would have helped.
Hello skrewdworld, Wow, one post from you and the comments reappear without censorship, I bet you didn't know you wielded that type of influence (LOL). But I agree with you, comments shouldn't be collapsed.
@AmericanPatriot, I have said on many occasions that I'm a political atheist, I don't care what political religion one wants to attach themselves to. As far as I'm concerned we have a one headed two party system serving their same masters, the banksters/Federal Reserve and Wall Street. Both parties are equally complicit in our current state of affairs.
justicenonexistent - ...because candlesticks are for holding candles, knives are for cutting things (usually food) and lamps are for providing light. Likewise, cars are designed to transport you from one place to another. Guns are designed to do one thing and one thing only - KILL.
@supper65
Those are skewed statistics that differ on every website you visit. Did you just google the statistics and choose the first link available? When I did I found the same info you posted:
So I looked up their source the NHSTA/FARS, 2011:
This is straight from the NSTHA...
In 1982, there were 43,945 total fatalities of which 26,173 were alcohol related. So, that's 60% of fatalities were alcohol related. In said report the total was 33,883 and 10,759 were alcohol related. So, that's 32% alcohol related. Where the 52% comes from in the one website is someone skewing the statistics by dividing the number of deaths instead of just subtracting the percentages; which, is what should be done for an accurate statistic. In 30 years there has been 28% less alcohol related deaths... not 50%+...
These are the same tactics the government and the media use to scare the populus into reacting the way they want. Like when the author of this article wrote:
If we use the same methodology with the DUI fatality statistics we get 33,883, by 365 days and your average is about 93 people a day. See how I purposely skewed that to get a number that I wanted?
@ oldhamlet 1.4 Couldn't agree more. They never give the stats you quote to give it any perspective. The part of this "so called news story" is as you suggest - to draw attention to the gun issue.
The portion of the article however that I find utterly preposterous is that this number of handgun deaths would be sensationalized even more if we only knew how many handguns were used in suicides. Does the media not realize how stupid they look when making statements like this? Hype and spin at it's finest!
This headline should be nominated for left wing propaganda of the year award. Let's see the graph for Mexico where all guns are illegal, ammunition is illegal and murder is illegal. Better yet, let's see death graphs from cardiovascular disease, alcoholism, and auto accidents. For any first timers who plans to listen to Obama's speech tomorrow night (personally, I would rather have a colonoscopy than hear him speak) here are some improtant translations of key phrases he is likely to use.
Invest - take taxpayer money to fund pet projects involving cronies
Pay fair share - soak the rich
Protect the middle class - soak the rich
Close loopholes - soak the rich
Alternative energy - more Solyndra's
Support education - more taxes but no accountability for teachers unions
Control spending - reduce the rate of increase, not the amount
Lower health care costs - stop paying the providers
I grew up watching Gunsmoke, Bonanza, Duke movies... Lot's of bad guys getting shot by the good guys. I also grew up in a farming town, with near everyone having a gun rack in the back of their pickups AND about every farmers kid had a knife strapped to their belts. Got into a ton of fights and no one got stabbed, no one got shot and everyone lived to fight another day. So what has fundamentally changed between 1980 until now?
Maybe you being a piss poor parent and not smacking the crap out of your kids is what is changed? Corporal punishment is now vilified as evil and abusive, bull sh!t, propaganda. Would you rather trust your instincts and do what your parents did? Or would you rather follow advice from Dr. Spock, who's own kid committed suicide?
Saying that unsecured guns automatically leads to death is incredibly simplistic. Guess what? I have overwhelming evidence that being alive and breathing also eventually leads to death. But being alive isn't the problem, just like guns are not the problem. It's a culture problem, one where people do not value life, have no sense of morals or right and wrong, and think nothing of taking a life for something petty. It's easy to look at the numbers in other countries, but they do not have our culture, so it's kind of an apples to oranges comparison.
For instance: between my father and brother in-law, my wife, and me, there are over 40 guns and 3 bows in the house. Everything from small pistols and revolvers to shotguns, bolt action and semi-auto rifles. Many of them even have the dreaded high-capacity magazines. None of them have ever been used to threaten or hurt another person in any way. We keep them around because we enjoy collecting and shooting them, but we were taught the difference between right and wrong and how to act responsibly around firearms.
More than half of the yearly gun deaths in this country are suicides. When someone takes their own life, there is an outcry for a renewed focus on mental healthcare needs. But when someone goes off the deep end and kills a bunch other people and then kills commits suicide, it becomes a discussion on gun control.mwhether it's one life or four or twenty, the discussion in the aftermath should be the same because a lot of these deaths are preventable. Unfortunately, knee-jerk restrictions on scary-looking weapons won't solve anything. You cannot legislate sickness or stupidity.
Here is part of the trouble right here she may have owned it legally but she did not secure her gun,she is the one that should be punished.But no lets blame that gun it should of had the sense not to fire when a teenager thought it was empty.
The sheriff's office said it didn't consider charging the grieving mother, because her gun was legally owned.
John-755418, #1.73- Thank you for the reply. I'd been unavoidably taken away from further posting this afternoon and am just now able to get back to it for a few before dinner is ready and waiting for me.
In answer to your "challenge", I've only had the opportunity to go back and read the post that I'd referenced and not the entire Article. (although I will, because I really do think that it's a spectacularly "comprehensive" piece). So here is a quick answer without being able to go back and read the whole Article, right now. You bring up, yourself, in your post "well regulated" and specifically in the Article are examples of "blatant" disregard to "responsibility" of Gun Ownership...a.k.a...."IRRESPONSIBILITY". Irresponsibility can in no possible way be a part of "well regulated" and as a matter of fact that kind of irresponsibility with no liability already has a definate "legal" term and that would be "Reckless" and also "Reckless Indifference". Had tighter restrictions regarding "responsibility" and "liability" been in place, there is "reasonable" probablilty that those Brothers wouldn't have had access to the Gun that killed one Brother. There is no guarantee, there is only "reasonable probablilty). And I also think it to be a case of "more than reasonable" probability, but just plain "reasonable", as opposed to "unreasonable" will suffice.
That is one example. I'm now being called to a luscious dinner of terriyaki chicken breasts, brown rice and brussel sprouts, prepared by my Son, before watching an older movie that I've never seen called "Class Action". (I do like Gene Hackman, so we'll see!) so I won't be able to get back to this post until tomorrow, if you'd like to further reply.
Thanks, again, for the "challenging" reply. I'm sure there are more examples, as regards possible and "reasonable" restrictions, too :)
I appreciate your response. But I did not say anything about or try to define "well regulated".
Exactly. But since prevention is the goal, advocates for gun control are looking for guarantees. This is my challenge. If you can demonstrate a case where additional regulations would guarantee prevention, I'd like to hear it. If they don't guarantee it, then all the new regulations will do are punish and p*ss off responsible gun owners.
Here is my main concern. Rights are those things in the Constitution which protect the individual. They are "endowed by their creator" upon individuals. To me, this means that rights are those things which governments do not have the power to deny. Rights are a framework under which we can pursue happiness. When a government leader takes an oath to defend the Constitution, he or she is taking an oath to protect the rights of Americans as defined by the Constitution. Destroying one of these rights is a violation of that oath and an impeachable offense. All of this applies to the 2nd amendment as it does to all the amendments.
John, #1.83- I appreciate, also. Much in your reply is well said and excellently put forth, Thank you. BUT, how can any argument you make not include "well regulated" as also being actual "text" of the 2nd Amendment? (Myself, personally, I have a different belief in the rendering of the text of the 2nd Amendment, probably different than 99%, and even I can't just totally disregard "well regulated" as being a "cohesive" part of the 2nd Amendment and am actually using that to "think outside the box" to find compromise).
I think it's "unreasonable" to expect a guarantee, in this case, because it's "impossible". It's also "unreasonable", as in your argument, to say "Give us an impossibility or nothing". Was the Mother of the 2 Brothers in the Article a "Responsible" Gun Owner? I think that also in your argument, you're wanting to talk about pissing off "Responsible" Gun Owners without ever having to DEFINE what a "Responsible" Gun Owner is; especially by in no way contrasting them with an "Irresponsible" Gun Owner, as in the Article. (and I'm just now checking in here and haven't had a chance to go back and read-again the article, but will right after this post, and then return).
I think here, also, you get into the 14th Amendment and enumerated powers and have to correllate back to the Bill of Rights by way of the 9th Amendment, and such, but I haven't quite gotten that far into, yet. It's the same as Free Speech is Free Speech, but it's not "Free-for-All" Speech (no pun intended). Free-for-All, as in "anything goes".
Okay, just a start to let you know that I am checking back and will, again, after I re-read the Article. (I'm also hanging in a post on the Profile of 6 Shooting Victims Article that I quickly entered this morning and have to get back to when I can find some more time. Even if that one won't be until tomorrow!)
John, #1.83- There. Re-read the Article and youe second reply post and again, MUCH IS EXCELLENT, I think. Both the Article, itself, in the comprehensiveness of it (unwittingly or not), AND your reply regarding your concern and defining of what Rights are suppose to be.
2 times in the Article, "blatant" irresponsibility on the part of the Gun Owner ended in what never should have happened. Minors were allowed to play with a deadly weapon like it was a toy and a 15 year old not only got hold of guns and used one to kill his family, but actually used "premeditation" to switch the power of the means by which he would cold-bloodedly continue on to kill his Father. (almost like he knew that he would need (even if in the realm of his "mental" prowess, or lack thereof, for whatever the reason) the extra fire power, which he obviously had easy access to.
The Harvard Professor in the Article is outstanding in a "qualified" perspective with much that he had to say; BUT, also VERY-VERY centrally telling in the Article is the under-developed (because it's detrimentally skewed to overreaching and wrong) hypothesis that "law enforcement is set up to find and "punish" wrong doers, not determine root causes." And therein lies A LOT of the conflict in the problem to be solved, as stated by you, about Responsible Gun Owners ending up thinking themselves to be "punished". Law Enforcement, per se, is not a "punishing" function and is actually separate from being and including "punishment"; even more than it's not suppose to be separated from determining the root "causes", (as in probable cause?, for example?) Law Enforcement is of the Executive Branch and "Punishment" is separate from Law Enforcement and of the Judicial Branch. A component of "Law Enforcement" is enforcing "punishment" that has been meted out, by the Judicial, not "punishment" that it has created itself, outside of the Judicial. This is why "well regulated" IS NOT (and should not) be punitive. And if you believe it is then you have the Right to take it to the Judicial Branch of Government, (Court), and demonstate how it is so and seek a redress of that grievance, as is your "inalienable" First Amendment Right to do so.
Mystery Rhee
Thank you for in-depth response. I will agree that guns should be regulated. However, the term "well-regulated" does not mean a ban on handguns. A total ban is being proposed by some members of the left. In fact, Washington D.C. had tried to ban them at one time until the Supreme Court stepped in an declared their handgun laws as unconstitutional in the case of Columbia v. Heller. A total ban is the goal of leftists in this country. What other purpose does this article serve other than to promote a total ban on handguns? This would be a blatant violation of the 2nd amendment and it would go well beyond the concept of "well-regulated".
With regards to well-regulated, I recall this as pertaining to a militia as stated in the Constitution. A militia is not an individual. And as we all well know, the amendments in the Constitution are designed to protect the individual. This is not to say that individual firearms owners should not be regulated but only a clarification to the language.
Based on your response, I believe you and I think similarly on gun control issues. However, I'm more pessimistic than you about how the media is handling the issue. I think they are promoting a total ban on handguns. This is the only way to truly put a dent in cases referenced by the author but this would be done at the expense of the 2nd amendment which is illegal.
They just had to stir the pot. Now anytime a firearm is discharged we are all going to know about it.
Exactly...the media will beat this to death (no pun intended) and if a 3rd grader cocks his thumb at another kid there will police involved...
Cory and 2little, thanks for your comment. Are you suggesting that it's not appropriate to note violent deaths and to research their causes. Whatever happened to the American can-do spirit of figuring out what's causing the problem and fixing it? Or would you say, because of your views on gun ownership, that gun deaths are a problem only if the media focuses on them?
Thanks for a good point, NBC guy.
Others, would you please give me a break. Police state? In what way has our government impinged on your freedom.... at all?
Ruby Ridge and Waco? Weren't those guys sort of asking for some intervention? Freedom doesn''t mean you can do whatever you want.
Well since you brought up the issue of identifying the problem. How about we look at who committed these crimes and in what neighborhoods were they committed? I bet they are overwhelmingly in poorer neighborhoods. Is it therefore that poor people are the problem? Maybe we should get rid of all the poor people? Or maybe we can apply some ethnic or racial statistics or even gender on top of the socio-economic? Maybe we should eliminate those groups since they seem to correlate. Also as has been stated the majority of these seem to people in densely populated areas. Maybe cities are the problem. I know, we should just ban cities.
Bill
What research is really needed? Violent deaths are caused by violent people. It seems to me that by putting it on the front page of every paper or news site, it is in a way glorifying the actions. I am sure that somewhere in this nation, on the same weekend, a firefighter saved a life. Or a police officer delivered a baby on the side of the highway. But we never hear those stories, because gun violence is the "hot topic."
Your interactive map shows suicides. Really? Gun violence and suicide cant be lumped together, NBC you are adding irrelevant stats to pad your cause. The gun, in this instance, was a tool to get to an end result. If a gun was not available, they would still be dead through different means.
Bill, you've made an excellent point. It is very appropriate to research and document violent deaths. Problem is, the media and the administration are too busy focusing on gun related deaths. IE.. their agenda! I'm all for the research in to the social issues causing these problems. Unfortunately, NBC's very liberal slanted reporting is NOT research!
Bill Dedman: Why haven't you reported on every gun death in real time before this? Could it be, that this article is a massive, flaming PROPAGANDA PIECE?
And besides, it is mid- February...
Bill Dedman,
No problem reporting crime,but the fact that the news is skewed against guns in general without showing all the people that are alive because of having a gun,Not to mention what has happened to unarmed society's in the past, I find It curious and bias,The NRA and every perfectly normal law abiding Americans never have had problems with our weapons getting up and killing anyone,And yet instead of changing what's really going on,The corruption of society and the lack real punishment of real criminals,in forcing the laws already on the books, as well as working with/for the mentally ill,The news just paints a constant everyday picture of guns going out and killing people.
We All know what the real problems are,so please don't patronize with we can-do figure out what's going on stuff.
Id say, Im sick and tired of the media acting as if we are all stupid and don't really know why people are dying.And it's no more the guns killing people than Moriphine killing the person,It always takes a person to make a reaction,And it Can either help you or hurt you,A human has to make the decision.
Bill,
The responses you received are a part of the problem. It isn't okay to do research about firearm deaths. It isn't okay to ask questions about firearm deaths.
smartliberal,
Suicide is gun violence. It is also a symptom of mental illness, which is a part of the discussion.
smartliberal1, you say that suicides should not be included. Two points to consider. First, suicides by gun happen twice as often as gun homicides. Second, you're saying that people who want to commit suicide will succeed in killing themselves regardless of the method. The research suggests otherwise. From the Harvard School of Public Health:
The case-fatality rate for suicide attempts with guns is higher than other methods
Across the Northeast, case fatality rates ranged from over 90% for firearms to under 5% for drug overdoses, cutting and piercing (the most common methods of attempted suicide). Hospital workers rarely see the type of suicide (firearm suicide) that is most likely to end in death.
Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. The epidemiology of case fatality rates for suicide in the Northeast. Annals of Emergency Medicine. 2004; 723-30.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-and-use/
Bill Dedman, you are exploiting the people with this article, and I find it repulsive.
This "interactive map" in simply sensational journalism. There is nothing wrong with the media focusing on the problems we have in this country, but that's not what you're doing here. This article is simply an appeal to emotion, which manipulates readers emotions, to advocate your anti-all guns position.
Suicide by gun is a form of violence against oneself.
Hello Bill, the government knows where the majority of gun violence occurs!
According to FBI.gov statistics not those from a lobbying group who advocate policy.
Since 1992 Violent crime is down 50% the Murder rate is down 54%.
Violent crime rate - In 1992 = 757 per 100,000, Murder rate of 9.3 per 100,000.
Let’s see which direction we’re going in!
Violent crime rate - In 2011 = 386 per 100,000 a 50% reduction.
Murder rate of 4.7 per 100,000 a 54% reduction.
Why isn’t the Media reporting the considerable improvement in violent crime?
The key to improving these numbers further is to isolate where the violent crime is being committed.
In Metropolitan US areas where the population is more than 250,000 the violent crime rate is double. The murder rate is double the national average. You can dissect the information down to the neighborhoods. In other words if our government wants to target violent crime and murder they know exactly where the majority of the violent crime is occurring. Instead of spreading fear, they can put action plans into place to reduce violent crime.
According to the Home Office Statistical Bulletin (England’s and Wales version of the FBI) where gun ownership is tightly controlled by law, have put out the enclosed statistics.
England and Wales population is 56 million.
Violent crime = 762,515
Violent crime ratio per 100,000 = 1,361. This is 3 and half times that of the US. Therefore, fewer guns don’t equal less violent crime.
In the US we have 186 metropolitan areas with a population of 250K and England has 32 metropolitan areas with 250K. We have 6 times more metropolitan areas then England and less violent crime.
In 2011 of all the homicides committed by firearms, only 3.5% were committed with rifles and the AR15 is only a subset of the rifle group.
We know where the violent crime is being committed and it is in the urban impoverished areas. If we truly want to address the violent crime issues we need to go into these areas and provide more jobs and a better educational system.
@Bill Dedman... Many aspects of that Harvard study is very old and only focuses on the North East. Please provide nationwide statistical data that at least suggests that "Suicides by gun are twice as common as gun homicides". Otherwise, don't include such a statement in your article. Back up your facts or find another profession.
Bill Dedman
Cory and 2little, thanks for your comment. Are you suggesting that it's not appropriate to note violent deaths and to research their causes. Whatever happened to the American can-do spirit of figuring out what's causing the problem and fixing it? Or would you say, because of your views on gun ownership, that gun deaths are a problem only if the media focuses on them?
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Bill,
Thanks for coming to the discussion....
While the people hurt by gun violence are very important... a media spotlight on a few cases and continually putting an inordinate amount of focus on the issue with so many current critical US political issues is counter productive.
Also, NBCs effort does not qualify as research into the causes of gun violence... it's simply creating web hits on a heart string issue to drive ad sales.... it doesn't further the discussion about continued erosion of the Bill of Rights since 9/11, nor debate the reality of spending political capital and scare Federal resources on a cause that ranks far below other causes of preventable death in America.
NBC doesn't examine the cultural differences between countries and their contrasting gun policies and relative gun assault and death rates. Nor does it attempt to interpret the philosophical and historical reasons for an armed citizenry..
Reality is: you guys aren't looking at the issue in a way that educates the US electorate in a politically neutral way... and that's your job....
and as a result... the US is more politically and issue naive than at any time since WWII... because you guys use tearjerking stories of gun violence to sell ads.....
You guys are part of the problem, not part of the discussion.
Absolutely agree oldhamletman. Well said.
Hey Bill... (#2.12)...I noticed all the photos were of White folks....Being that you seem to be monitoring this....And you have all that Data at your fingertips.....How about giving us a breakdown by race for each of your color coded dots ????
And this is exactly why I legally carry everywhere I go....The 2nd. Amendment has nothing to do with Hunting, Skeet shooting or Plinking....Got it ???
Responding to LordPyrinc's question about the statistics for gun homicides vs. suicides. He says: @Bill Dedman... Many aspects of that Harvard study is very old and only focuses on the North East. Please provide nationwide statistical data that at least suggests that "Suicides by gun are twice as common as gun homicides". Otherwise, don't include such a statement in your article. Back up your facts or find another profession.
You'll see in the companion article exactly those numbers. Here's the link: http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/10/16912647-guns-in-america-the-weapon-of-choice-for-criminals-but-also-a-deterrent
To quote the numbers from the CDC: That year (2010, the latest available), the CDC counted 19,392 gun deaths by suicide, 11,078 homicides with firearms, 606 deaths by accidental shootings and 596 with other or undetermined cause.
Oldham, that's not true. How is reporting gun deaths--by all means homicide, accident, suicide, not good reporting? How could information be "part of the problem."
Sure, you could write a dissertation on all of the factors that go in to the statisitics (they people at Harvard do), but this is a news article. I don't think there was much judgment in here at all, other than what is obvious--lots of people kill each other and themselves with guns. I thought you might get excited that there were actually few people killed via self-defense. They didn't omit those or anything....What's the problem?
"It's an inescapable conclusion, even from our small sample, that there are many ways to get killed with a gun in America." ... and about the only one which can be drawn from a scattering of facts. This isn't research in search of an answer, it's the broadcast of an opinion under color of journalism where the end justifies the means. Some might say like using explosives in Chevy pick up truck gas tanks to make a point.
This puts things in perspective...........Amazing NO ONE WANTS TO BAN TOBACCO!!!!!!!!!! WHY IS THAT?
over 500 thousand deaths and yes some of those are kids!
alcohol - over107 thousand deaths and yes those include kids!
Fire arms - not even twelve thousand!
Mr. Dedman,
Are you going to deny that you are focusing on a "hot topic", knowing that the sensationalism of the topic is what will get more readers, whether or not there are more pressing issues when it comes to needless deaths?
Have you even ONCE considered focusing on families of victims of alcohol related deaths? The number is staggering compared to gun deaths but it is not a "hot topic" , hence not worthy of the news space. Alcohol has a much higher rate of deaths (also from suicide, accidental, intentional, etc) but is has never received this kind of attention that news gives guns.
I wonder why.
@Bill, here is the problem with your statement. They are not trying to solve a problem. They are trying to advance an agenda. The agenda being to disarm this country. Don't you find it ironic that the areas with the highest gun related crime are also the areas with the strictest gun laws?
May I suggest to you that this type of reporting is designed specifically NOT to address the real problem but rather to distract from it. The real problem is a decay in our morality as a society. It is unaddressed mental illness. It is the breakdown of the family. To blame these killings on guns is like blaming obesity on forks. It now seems politically incorrect to expect people to be accountable for their actions or to blame parents for not raising good children because we can no longer hurt any ones feelings. No, instead we blame our problems on inanimate objects. And of course anyone daring to suggest otherwise must be crazy. Tell me you can't see the irony here.
Bill, you're doing a good job, citing reports, stats. Don't let 'em get to you. You're doing the right job.
An informed public is a good thing, even if some of these folks here would rather the information be a little more obscure (not reported at all apparently).
Mike in Delray might feel safer himself carrying a gun, and maybe he is personally, but statistically, people like him, and the people around him, are not.
Chris,
I want to ban tobacco.
My brother, 44, died of lung cancer. Two-pack-a-day from age 14. 30 years later, dead.
Bill
You know your research we are not doubting the research or passion of your article.... just your motivation which is, be honest, exploitation. We all know the effects of gun violence so your " appropriate to note violent deaths and to research their causes" calvalier attitude is invalid. Why not step out of your norm and report on the effects of dead beat dads in ratio to their offspring violence? Violence in relation to government assistance and the failure of? There are countless 'violent death' causes that can be investigated that would be revolutionary or possibly pulitzer? WHat happen to that journalistic spirit that has gone bye-bye for ratings and frankly emotional pleading?
Cheetah, Chris, Rando, Rhino, others
You're all obfuscating for YOUR agenda. You're shooting the messenger. The message is one of carnage for no good reason.
Bill is just reporting a weekend of gun deaths in America, and apparently missed 2/3 of them.
He didn't call for anything like better gun laws, but I will.
What's wrong with universal bcakground checks, required licensing of owners, and training? You have to get a license to drive, and have continuing education credits to stay an engineer. There are safety requirements to fence a pool. Why not require trigger locks? I'm sure you can come up with some reasons NOT to do those sensible things, and Bill's article is a reason why your arguments are bad.
What's more funny is that they will try and ban fast food and large drinks over tobacco! Now how messed up is that, go Democrats... And for those who think I am republican, they can eat $hit too...
@SMbus - lost my mother to lung cancer, sorry for your loss! But how are those restriction working for countries like say those in central America that have all those restrictions?, I still see everyday cartels shooting up something or someone!
Bill Dedman, I think it is the timing and recent repeats of articles like the one you wrote that created the stir. Gun violence is out of hand but really what has changed from say 2 years ago? It's now a Presidential agenda item due to a bad school shooting of young children but both have been at the forefront before. What is different now?
I also think it would be great if someone in your crew wrote about the number for drunk driving murders that occur for the month of March 2013. All the stats and legislation propsed to stop people from drinking and driving. Ban six packs and get a 2 beer a day voucher issued by the government? Show us what you got.........
What one person calls public interest, is another persons "exploitation."
This is a topic on the minds of many Americans.
The fact that the report hits home, and you don't like, is the only reason you guys are hammering it from every direction.
Face it, crazy, dejected, demented, people who are already violent, and sad, do commit the violence. What difference does that make? the common factor is that these people, with guns, do a lot of damage. Those same people, without guns, will be much less effective in that violence.
@Bill Dedman... thanks for the response and additional information.
As the saying goes: statistics don’t lie but, liars use statistics. NBC is up to its usual one-sided “statistics” to push its anti-gun agenda. Here are a few things to consider:
I’m sure NBC will keep up its agenda to demonize and mislabel gun owners and cherry pick their statistics but, I figured I would try.
Chris,
Thank you. Sorry for your mom too.
They try to do what they can. It was Republican Bloomberg that banned large drinks. Most things gun will never pass--so they never try.
IXLR8,
All media is like this, they pay attention to the hot topic. That's just our culture. I think it would be interesting to see a report on drunk driving deaths, but the media (and the public) thinks that's boring unless some celebrity JUST got killed in a DD accident (or killed someone).
Then you go into some govt control thing, which is just crazy. They can't control anything. If they could, do you think we would still be in recession? You're virtually on your own as it is. The small arrangements that we have set up for each other in having Police, the Town Rec Center, and Medicare are there on a thread. If you think govt controls anything, you've watched too many conspiracy movies (or listened to too many conspiracy theorists--you know who they are).
One nation under gun with liberty and justice for the NRA.
Mr Dedman -
There is a big difference between sensationalistic journalism and true research. The title of your article specifies "gun violence" - however you include suicides in your number which is a big red 'biased' flag. Japan has a huge per capita number of suicides, yet no one would (rightfully) declare that to mean they have a very violent society.
If you are truly concerned about these "horrrors" as you call them, then how about an article on ALL violence or the explosion of gang memberships? Why is it that Chicago is under siege from extreme violence in only certain parts of the city? What is the correlation between illegal immigration and the sudden jump in Hispanic gangs? Ignoring the root cause of our violence and focusing solely on what tool is being used is as pointless as suggesting that someone who wants to commit suicide would only do it with a firearm.
Fonze,
1) Culture.
2) Who knows because our Congress has disallowed keeping stats.
3) Who cares? Those are separate thing, both worthy of a report. Neither negates the other.
SmBusOwnerinNY...(#2.27)..."Mike in Delray might feel safer himself carrying a gun, and maybe he is personally, but statistically, people like him, and the people around him, are not."
Really ???....There are 1 Million Floridians, (U.S.Citizens) with CCW Permits....About the same number as Illegals in Florida...Hmmmm....
They got HUNDREDS of Cops out looking for ONE EX-COP with a Grudge....Why ???....Because he's gunning for COPS, that's why....You think they care about you ???.....A trunk full of chalk is all they got to draw an outline after you're dead...
911 = Dial-A-Prayer...
Jay,
Suicide by gun isn't violent?
That's 2 Japan references in this thread. Somebody must be touting that non-sequitur in gun-nut land.
The article isn't about gang violence or immigration. Those are good topics for articles too, but don't negate the value of the original.
You're just obfuscating. Gun violence is pervasive. Not just Newtown. It's a problem. You can't say it's not.
smbusiness owner, Thanks for the add on, I don't think the government can control anything either, I was being sarcastic with the 2 beer a day rations analogy. There needs to be a solution to the violence but the current proposals miss the mark.....
Mike in D,
Sure, in all good intentions, you and many others attempt to make yourself and others around you safer, but statistically, more people are killed by those guns in the home by accident or suicide than are saved heroically. It is just a fact. I don't want to take your gun away. You sound like someone who takes it seriously and are probably perfectly safe with your gun. I want everybody who does to be just as safe. Training, licensing, permits, gun locks at home. If it were harder for everybody to carry, wouldn't you be safer?
IXL,
There is always the black helicopter crowd, so you never know. Glad to hear you were kidding.
I'm personally hopeless that anything of any consequence will come out of it. Only when responsible gun owners like Mike in Delray say training, permits and licensing is a good thing will it happen. Right now, there are too many that think (are prodded to think) that there is some slippery slope where big brother is going to come and take all the guns away. I think that is just as unrealistic as the government taking over anything. They can't and they won't, but there is enough fear that will prevent anything productive from happening.
If you wanted to present an unbiased story you might have also included statistics of ALL deaths that occurred over the MLK weekend. For instance, how many people were killed by automobile? How many people were beaten to death? How many people suffered fatal knife wounds? How many people committed suicide other than by gun - because most women who kill themselves do not use guns. We get that you don't like guns. We get that you regurgitate the WH talking points whenever you have the opportunity. But, until you explain why it is okay for the President to murder US citizens without due process and yet okay for him to in any way disarm American people or why DHS has deemed that the very weapons the WH wants to ban are those that they believe are best suited for use in close quarters or why DHS has purchased over 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition in the past 10 months when, at the height of the Iraq war our military was only using 5.5 million rounds per month === nothing you have to say has any importance to those of us who believe that our Constitutional rights are not up for debate -- that the government has NO right to decide what type of weapons we may own that we may need to use to ensure we retain our Constitutional rights.
So - what type of death will will they be tracking next weekend for a comparison?
Let's go alcohol- related deaths - that should be an interesting comparison
Perhaps - go for a week period and track non-life threating or rape abortions?
smbusowner,
I agree with your answers. However, the anti-gun media and politicians are dishonest with their stats and interpretation of those stats. They use the false analogy to push through legislation that will result in the confiscation of guns from law-abiding people and will create a backdoor registry. Most people don't realize that guns will be confiscated since the MSM and politicans don't address it. If you can't transfer "assault weapons"- semiautomatic firearm technology that is over 100 yeasr old- then what will happen to them? What will happen when a grandfather wants to give his son or grandson his semiauto rifle? The answer is obvious.
The article is intended to craft public opinion against gun ownership...suggesting that if guns didn't exist in our society, people wouldn't be dying. That's simply not true.
Our "mainstream media" is increasing becoming a propaganda arm of elements of our society. Why isn't the article addressing the root cause of "violent gun deaths" and focusing instead on the tools with which people commit violence? Murder existed in human culture well before firearms ever existed and will continue if firearms are banned...only, the criminals will be the only ones with them.
Gun violence is not the problem. Period. The problem is human frailty. The article lumps an accidental death from a child playing with a gun in with a murderous mass killing of a sociopath...and calls the both "gun violence" as if the are even remotely comparable. This is an excruciatingly obvious failure in logic and reasoning....and it HURTS their argument for gun control rather than helps. If the argument for gun control is so weak that you would equate an accidental death of a child from a unintended firearm discharge to the murderous intent of a sociopath, then you don't have much of an argument in the first place. Sure...the simpleminded lemmings will buy it...but not thinking, rational people.
I don't see this article as anything more than an attempt to sway public opinion based on emotion and non-intellectual prose.
The real problem in our society is not "gun violence" but violence in general. Guns are a necessary evil because there are evil people...this is an undeniable truth. As enlightened as any group of people believe they are, the world (and any society) is only as evolved socially as its lowest common denominator. All the talk of a utopian fantasy of a world without gun violence is just that...fantasy and gibberish.
Guns aren't the problem...human nature is the problem.
Bill Dedman---Very good writing since you already knew what the outcome of your article was going to entail. Gun violence is a myth, violence occurs every day and not all of it is gun related, accordingly you attempt to say at the top of these issues that if there was no gun this would not have happened. That is not true, the suicides were just that suicides, they would have happened no matter what. Because they chose a gun does not mean they would not have taken their life if the gun had not been available. As for the other senseless crimes we can all feel the pain associated with your stories but there are other things that cause such pain as well, dude life is hard.
Gun control is a violation of the second amendment, there are guarantees that go with it. To exclude a portion of that guarantee for the sake of feeling secure is like trying to predict when and where a volcano will erupt, usually wrong and never in time to stop it. Although we have laws against murder and rape and theft, can we really stop any of them with a law? So I say no to violating the second amendment protection.
Fonze,
Why makes you think that the government has any interest in "confiscation of guns?"
It's just TIN-FOIL HAT stuff, made up to get you go go out and buy MORE guns. Don't you see that?
I have a 12 gauge I used to shoot skeet with and I suppose it could be useful in case of the Zombie Apocalypse, but I have NO FEAR at all that the Government of all things is going to come an take it. It's ridiculous on the face of it.
Another point is this is America and law abiding folks have the right to have weapons for target shooting hunting etc etc etc. Banning assault weapons one expects to see in countries like England China etc etc etc. However this is America and we are a free country and we dont punish law abiding folks for action of criminals. Hell we even allow abotions which is basical teriminating a life so Im sorry taking law abiding folks rights to have an assault for target practice away is just plain unamerican. Also murder is already banned so I doubt the murderer is going to care if his weapon is legal are not.
Bill
Just out of curiosity, how do do you see this article as being unbiased when your comments seem to argue FOR gun control? You even included supposed violence done by law enforcement. Do we want to take their guns away too?
Sorry. but I agree with TrustVerify on this one. Most of our rights that have been undermined were a direct response to media hype slanting stories for some goal. So much for journalistic integrity.
I just hope that the media is blindsided when they go after freedom of the press because after what I have seen happening in the last ten years, they have it coming more than we ever did.
Anyone who reads the writings of the framers of the constitution would see the really did want the citizenry to be of some credible deterrence against foreign or domestic oppression. And put it in the Constitution.
America has a long tradition and culture behind gun ownership. But it is to easy of an issue for political minded individuals to leverage it into attention and distraction from truly difficult problems that are hard to solve.
So for essentially selfish reasons, this issue is going to be used to divide the nation and elevate the general dysfunction of our society. Meanwhile real dangers to our nation involving fiscal and medical policies and foreign relations, will continue to be neglected.
So goes a society into decay when relatively unimportant issues as "gun control" consume our energies.
JR and your GTFO avatar,
Don't you think Fox is a propaganda arm? I'll answer for you, yes.
So at best we've got opposing propaganda arms?
There used to be a FCC rule, the Fairness Doctrine, that prevented this kind of crap. Reagan got rid of it. Now we have what we have. No one believes anything "they" say. How is that good for America?
On topic, gun violence is a problem. You can't say it's not. All of the deaths are violent by definition. Whether it's accidental, or on purpose (murder, suicide) it's still violent. All of the underlying "root" problems that caused the action are still there without the guns, but the consequences would be much less. Guns make the consequences worse. It's really hard to argue.
If we extend the map - NO OTHER COUNTRIES ARE NOTED....WHY?
Bill, if you don't like guns then don't get one. But who the HELL do you think you are telling other people how to live their lives and what they can and cant have? I mean seriously, screw you man. You're doing exactly what the Westboro Baptist Church does and other rightwing christians/anti-abortionists, you're trying to force YOUR views down the throats of everyone else. I get it that guns make you uncomfortable. But me having a gun or anyone else having a gun doesn't effect you. Get off your high horse and stop being a nosy better-than-thou schmuck. Also I love the fact that you people at MSNBC had to go back several weeks just to pick the worst week you could find. How biased of you. I'm a Liberal and even I realise that gun control is absolute crap.
SmBusOwnerinNY: I agree with your initial response about agendas but there is one big difference. THIS hot topic is being debated for change of the 2nd amendment. There are no amendments up for debate on drunk driving yet it kills countless more than guns do.
THAT is the difference and that is why our arguments are not wrong. (I wonder how you determined the arguments were actually *wrong*)?
John,
What rights have been undermined?
I don't know about you, but I can still do just about anything I want to that I could 10 years ago. I used to be able to carry a pocket knife on the plane and I can't do that. That's literally the only thing I can think of. Being forced to take off my shoes, or pack the knife doesn't qualify as" taking my freedom" away in my book. ...and those didn't happen because of media hype and an agenda--they happened becue of 9/11 and the shoe bomber guy (i.e. reality).
Gun violence is reality. the fact that they included the self defense and police shootings tells me they are actually being UNbiased. They are including the justifiable killings in there. Notice it's like 20:1 (or more). The facts are the facts.
smbusowner,
I suggest you read the Feinstein bill closer. If you own an "assault weapon" you will not be allowed to transfer or sell it ever. Therfore, a firearm that fits this description could not be passed down from father to son legally. So either you can give it to your son and become a criminal or you could give it to government. This is de jure confiscation plain and simple.
Newswinner,
What agenda? He just reported the stats. If the stats speak for themselves, well then they're pretty compelling all by themselves, aren't they? No need to get angry with the guy. Reread the article. It's very matter of fact. Sad, but matter of fact.
Randoo,
Who's trying to change the 2nd Amendment?
Nobody.
I didn't say anybody was "wrong" (I don't think). I said nobody was going to come take your guns, but I don't think I said anything about somebody being wrong. (but I could be wrong!)
Just one,
Because we're talking about OUR country.
The extremes the liberal media will go to, in an attempt to advance and promote the Obama agenda, to take our guns and ignore our 2nd amendment rights.
Obama has been successful on many issues, with their help, but this will fail.
SmBusOwnerinNY I did read his responses and I have no issue with stating stats. What I have an issue with is the anti-gun crowd having to go back almost an entire month just to find the most amount of shootings in a weekend. They also very clearly included accidents and suicides and self defense shootings in this article to make America seem like we have a worse problem than we really have. HMMMM could it be like they are trying to push an agenda or something?
Fonze,
Actual legislation could end up with dumb provisions. The one you mention would be dumb, no doubt about it. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't bother at all. Fight against provisions that are dumb, not about provisions that are good. Universal background checks, licensing, training, permits, interstate transport restrictions. We do all of that for alcohol and vehicles. Totally makes sense for firearms.
Doesn't NBC have some 911 calls to edit?
P.S.
Why no coverage of the Nevada Democrat who lost what little mind he had and threatened other politicians and then fought with cops and attempted to grab an officers gun?
Nev. lawmaker accused of grabbing for cop's weapon
"The arrest came only days after the North Las Vegas Democrat embarked on a three-week leave following a string of bizarre events that began with his Jan. 19 arrest for allegedly threatening Assembly Speaker Marilyn Kirkpatrick."
http://news.yahoo.com/nev-lawmaker-accused-grabbing-cops-weapon-232427086.html
SmBusOwnerinNY
Perhaps you haven't been paying attention.
The Patriot Act -(Signed by Bush and made permanent by Obama) This destroyed right to privacy allowing the government to legally spy without a warrant. Forgive me but that was a protection that should have never been given up. They also have access to all of our bank accounts.
NDAA- Congress gave our right and every earth citizens right to due process to the President of the US. If you don't believe me, read his signing statement. Congress had no authority to give what was not theirs to give. It gives the military the right to arrest, detain indefinitely, or kill American Citizens, and nowhere in it does it limit it to foreign lands. Why is it that countries around the world and their media condemned it and in the US the media didn't even make a peep? Even our allies condemned it.
HR 347 Makes it illegal to protest the government where they see fit. They don't even have to post where. They can simply arrest you.
The EPA has made running manufacturing in this country all but impossible. While I agree with protecting the earth, all it does is send the pollution to counties with no standards what so ever. And we do breath that air also. They have also tried to control how we use the property we own. Last year a case made it all the way to the Supreme Court because the EPA told a couple they could not build a house within the current code requirements. The SCOTUS told the EPA to bugger off, and that they were out of line.
It is a steady drive toward total control and limiting our rights that have been on the books for centuries. I can give you more if you like.
News,
what makes you think they cherry picked that weekend? Maybe it was because it took them a couple weeks to go through the numbers and put the story together? I think he said that it might have actually been a light weekend because the volume was actually LOW for three random days in America. the total should have been 3 times higher--and he speculated that maybe a heavy sports weekend actually lightened the load. I think suicides are a problem too. Again, the article says suicides by guns are much more successful than without them.
I don't see an agenda in the way the article is written, I see the facts speaking for themselves. If printing the article AT ALL looks to you like an agenda, well, you need to think about that. Facts are facts. If you saw the data in a list with no explanation, it would still be pretty powerful. We have a LOT of gun violence.
Pjam,
.....and that has what to do with what?
SmBusOwnerinNY
You are so Wrong my friend its not even funny. There are So many Obamanites here its stupid, It is unbelievable how many Traitors there are that traded there Souls to this man who hides his past, who lies at every point, and Bought the Votes of so many, and for what, the Destruction of the USA. This is not about Race as some like to say, this is about our Nation, and this Old Warrior wont go quitely, and will Fight to preserve the Oath I took to the Constitution all those years ago. So you and the others need to really get your heads out of the sand, and quick.
Is this anti-gun rant disguised as journalism by NBC supposed to support the Obama gun control agenda or a total ban on guns? I ask the stupid question because most of the map is about gun violence without stating the types of weapons used or if they were perpetrated by criminals with illegal guns or prospective banned items?
LOL SmBusOwnerinNY: Right so now MSNBC has journalistic integrity? They certainly had no problem making crap up as Sandy Hook was going on. First it was Ryan and then it was Adam Lanza. An AR-15 was used. Then it was pistols. Then it was shotguns. Then it was back to the AR-15. They said he bought those guns legally. Then they said he killed his mother and stole them. I mean I can go on and on about how MSNBC loves to make up stuff to fit their agenda. All of a sudden they are somehow now respectable journalists and they took almost a full month to write this story? I'm not buying it HAHAHA, thanks for the laugh though. Say, wanna buy the golden gate bridge?
John,
Sure, Patriot and ndaa, bad. But only if the government uses those authorities improperly. I'm not too frightened under Democrats, frankly. I'd be more worried about it under a fascist-leaning righty. Someday one of those might be in charge, but for now, I'm not too worried. I'm definitely not worried about a lefty Stalin-type in America. I think it's ironic that the Tim McVeys, Ruby Ridgers and other right-wingers are the ones worried.
Manufacturing is much more threatened by the owners wanting to move overseas than the EPA forcing them. That's just an excuse, anecdotes aside.
As I said, I don't see any real rights being taken away. It's just people being scared because they want to be for some reason, or they are being LED there by some agenda. Whether it's Glen Beck selling Gold or the NRA selling fear to goose the profits of the gun manufacturers. WE'RE not really affected.
Starman,
I'm the ONLY one here. What are you talking about? All I'm reading is one "this is liberal propaganda" post after another.
Hey, I'm a patriot too. I love America and I want it to be safer for my kids and my fellow Americans. I'm not frankly THAT worried about gun violence where I live, and I'm definitely not worried that the government is "coming" for anything--whether it was George W Bush or Barack Obama. What possible use would our government have in invading itself? Why would "they" have any interest in doing that?
This story and any other story about gun controll is now pointless. Why?? because the DOJ has now authorized the use of drones to kill Americans at will on home soil. So explain to me how taking guns away to reduce deaths is justifiable when a drone will do the same thing as a gun....Kill!
SmBusOwnerinNY
The fact of the matter is that no President should ever have any of those authorities. It is a slippery slope to fascism.
Why do the owners want to move overseas? Point in fact. The last portland cement factory made in the US took ten years to get through EPA. Another made at the same time in South America was up and running and making a profit in a year. Don't try to tell me that they are not driving businesses away.
I understand you backing up MSNBC on this because they are justifying your position.
Just for the sake of fun, tell me what business you own. I will look it up and give you examples of how the government in the last ten years is changing laws governing how you run it. Unless you don't believe those are "real rights" that you should care about.
now msnbc has their socialistic liberal writers blogging /arguing their liberal agenda --- wow
News,
I didn't say anything about integrity. I said facts were facts.
Regarding Newtown, you call it an agenda....or it could be they didn't know what they were doing.
When in doubt, they say something. If they say nothing, they get accused of conspiracy. It's a catch 22. They don't want to get scooped by some other news agency. If the cops say one thing, they report it. If that turns out to be refuted by someone else, they report that. That's not an agenda. Having your head up your azz is not an agenda. It's really the opposite of an agenda. If they knew exactly what happened and never varied, that would make me more suspicious.
Fitting an agenda? Maybe you should consider perhaps it's you that has an agenda that YOU'RE trying to fit to MSNBC. Couldn't be that, could it?
92% of Americans are for gun regulation. It looks like the 8%ers are all on this thread.
This article supports the views of the vast majority of Americans.
Guns need to be well regulated just like cars.
People who want to commit suicide will find a way if no guns available,Japan has a suicide rate almost twice that of the USA,and very few personal firearms.
Common methods of suicide are jumping in front of trains, leaping off high places, hanging, or overdosing on medication.[1] Rail companies will charge the families of those who commit suicide a fee depending on the severity of disrupted traffic.[17]
That would be in Japan,I find the author's statement on gun availability and suicide very disingenous.
John,
I'm not backing them up. First, it's NBC News anyway, not MSNBC. Next, I'm just saying that the report is really a factual report. It's not saying "see, we need better gun control." The facts speak for themselves though, and that makes a LOT of people obfuscate and blame the story on "MSNBC's agenda" when there isn't one there. It's a news report. If you see an agenda, it's you that doesn't like what the news is saying.
The only complaint then is that they reported it AT ALL, which begs the question: do you just not want to know this information? Is that your agenda? (all the people who complained)
Reporting 30,000 gun deaths is not "my position" on anything. It is what it is.
PS there can't be that many EPA jettisoned manufacturing plants, and if they were any, there was probably a good reason (how many people are allowed die from particulate-induced death in the name of keeping a polluting plant open).
mlkit ad john in PA,
Please take over. I'm exhausted explaining what reporting IS and so forth....It's been 10 against me for hours!
Bill @ NBC,
I may be speaking for myself but All I had to see was the Title of the "report" to know what was in it,and what it was about(agenda) So It's fair to say the ones I Have read, From the mainstream Gun article's as of late,have been bias against guns.
I feel it's way more concerning That we have a president that uses Drones to kill a 16 yr old American because (Obama Can) And The boys FATHER was ALLEGEDELY involved with terrorist activitys(who I understand renounced his American status) without any trial,Obama was Judge and Jury...Now Thats A real Story We should be hearing about till its resolved!! America is not happy with these " New Discoveries". Obama also seems to have no problem with Abortion/partial birth Abortions,So how can he say with more gun control "if it saves just one child" 1.2 mil Children were Murderd last year,That's where the real story is...The Genoside of our future,And nobody in the WH or DC who seems to care.No,they are after boogeymen that will never go away If we keep ignoring Them,And they will still get guns because they dont obey laws...Thats why they are the Bad Guy.
oh, and John, my company manufactures a groundwater sampling device that tests contaminated groundwater. I've found that our "alternative" method, while less expensive than traditional methods, is hard to get "approved" because of the piecemeal regulation around the country, state by state, county by county sometimes. So I know a bit about difficult regulation, for a different reason I think, but I know.
SmBusOwnerinNY
To be honest, I am for reasonable gun control. I also believe that it is not the guns that are committing the crimes. More regulation is simply a bandaid rather than finding a cure for the disease. The disease is overpopulation, mental health and environment of the criminal. Until we deal with those things, nothing will change. In reality I would rather see them using guns than bombs which they can get the plans for on the internet.
For the record, I do believe that they have an agenda. Just as Fox does, and I don't go to fox. The media should not be playing a part in policy, pushing for one outcome over another based on their views. Just for an instant, ask yourself whether all news agencies are reporting the same thing, and why. MSNBC has always been a liberal rag. I accept that, but I should also be able to call them on it. And you, with an open mind should accept that they may have an agenda, and it just may coincide with yours.
As far as the EPA goes, there are, and that was their intention.
I would think you would do better being Small business owner ND testing all the wells around the fracking then.
Bill Dedman
Human nature is what needs fixin. No big lib idea is going to solve that.
You should be ashamed of your reporting, you could have hid your agenda far better. You should also report how many crimes were averted by legal weapon owners, but that does not help your cause.
Your a real piece of work.
@Bill Dedman, with all due respect, your seem to be drawing a conclusion that by removing guns from the equation, by drawing comparisons between homiscides and suicides.
But every Mental Health Organization have done reports on the cause and affect of suicides, there is nothing comparable to the different mindsets between someone lashing outward, and those looking inward.
Far greater difference between anger and depression. Nearly night and day.
But let's entertain the fact, how many people total committed suicide during the same time table? Not just guns, mind you... how many hung themselves, drug OD's, drowned, or even used their vehicles?
Don't have the numbers? Ok, compare last years FBI reports of gun related deaths to the total number of suicides... won't take you long to realize that far more people killing themselves with other means. Heck, just comapred Oregon and Washington's stats...
Then, tell me, oh wise guru of the knowledge... how many non-deaths were thanks to a gun? Oh, that's right, not able to actually track the number of criminals who stopped their antics, unless of course someone died. So, in reality, you are comparing only one side of the equation and trying to make the assumption of the whole problem. Believe it or not, some people fear getting shot... even bad people trying to do bad things... many of them will gladly back away from an armed confrontation. Such as the Mall shooting in Clackmas County.. where the individuals who shot a few people, when confronted by a legal and trained gun owner... instead of killing others, next shot was to himself.
Exactly HOW MANY LIVES WERE SAVED?? Count the number of eye witness' and you should have a good starting point to count, since they would have been well in range.
Now, let's re-examine the facts, to which you glanced on, but then tossed aside (kindly buried in the center so most would not maintain long enough to grasp).... the illegially owned.
No sense of "Gun Control" is going to remove the guns from the criminals. Why? Because they are already illegal for them to have, the assumption that they would magically stop the access would be nothing short of naive and reckless.
Any study of history and "banned" substances has already proven the cause and affect. Alcohol, drugs.. heck, you even brought up a major one, without knowing... the AK-47, an automatic rifle... guess what, it is an illegal weapon currently.. in fact, ALL Automatic weapons are.
And closing with this, Assault, defined in legal terms as "an unlawful physical attack upon another; an attempt or offer to do violence to another, with or without battery, as by holding a stone or club in a threatening manner."
So, by definition, any gun, knife, baseball bat, car or anything used to hurt another person is an "Assault weapon"... so a vague ban on an "assault weapon" could be a ban on your pen, if that pen is used to stab someone.
A gun, just like any other mechanical device is nothing more than a tool. Just as Newton's law of relativity states, a gun undistubed will stay at rest... Until they find a way to fix the person behind the tool, the problems will not stop... Until they really focus on stopping the violence at the source, the endless run on of regurgitated fodder will not help the problem.
Even worst, if they do ban guns, you do understnad, you too can be liable for any damage done.
Here is how criminals get guns
Virtually every gun starts out as a legally manufactured product, but the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) points to three common ways guns move from legal distribution channels to the criminal market:
The solution ..... a universal, effective background check for EVERY gun purchase or other transfer of ownership and a fully funded ATF to enforce gun laws. Congress has been blocking confirmation of the head of the ATF for eight years, influenced by the NRA.
Wow, the NBC gun vultures all flocked together to put out that antigun article!! What a sorry bunch of putzses. Hey Bill, why don't you do the same weekend study on how many people die in auto accidents or fires, or drug O Ds, stabbed, or beaten to death. Oh, how many deaths due to abortions on any given weekend would you guess?
Know what would be good un-biased journalism? Reporting the nearly 7000 times a day firearms are used for defense across the United States. Quit using scare tactics and actually do your job.
Anyone who cannot see the insanity/stupidity of the over-the-top gunners has to be brain dead. Here we have a reporter who writes a story. No one, not even the gunners question the accuracy. They can't. The report is factual. What do they do? They collapse his responses. They shoot the messenger. What would you expect from a gun stroker?
They can't argue their "no compromise position" logically. They cover their eyes, plug their ears, and scream about second-amendment rights they don't begin to understand. These people are dangerous and are the very people who should not have access to firearms OF ANY KIND..
It is impossible to overestimate the power of stupidity.
A word to the wise. Rational people will think twice about getting a gun or holding on to their guns.
The parents of this boy are deep in denial. Rather than face the reality of their son's suicide with a gun, they defend guns. Don't let this happen to your family.
No Apologies
Failing to deal with a major cause of unnecessary death because deaths occur by other means is stupid. It's like saying "Let's not deal with heart disease because people die from cancer". How about a moratorium on stupid arguments. Maybe that means you have to quit posting.
Dear Readers,
Why would anyone for one second think that MS/NBC articles are not slanted with a Progressive Socialist bias?
Let alone this skewed statistical picking article.
Remember the reporting of the mother in Georgia protecting her children calling her a "Gun toting mother who shot an alleged intruder"......This article once again proving what a joke this so called news outlet has become.
Ted Nugent really made some excellent points in his last interview with Piers Morgan, who simply REFUSED to acknowledge whether or not he wanted to concentrate on the importance of the fact that a murder took place in the first place, or the method by which that murder took place because, of course, there is a current media blitz on guns, particularly by NBC and affiliates it seems. Gun, knife, crowbar, baseball bat, bow and arrow, crossbow, poisoned blow dart, you take away one method from the nut jobs with murderous intent will find a way to stay in business but there are some irrational people who just don't see that.
91 victims over MLKJ weekend? Why is this more important than the approximately 548 people who died in our nations hospitals from mostly preventable causes that no one seems to want to talk about. It's been said its the equivalent of a jumbo jet plane crashing once a day for a year straight. Think anyone would notice? Then why are things that we as a "can do" nation need to come together and solve and "fix" swept under the rug?
Trying to reason with the gun nuts about guns is a waste of time. They refuse to understand how accidents and suicides could happen in their homes, to their families, with their guns.
It's sad, but in effect it is culling the gene pool.
David Walker
Anyone who cannot see the insanity/stupidity of the over-the-top gunners has to be brain dead. Here we have a reporter who writes a story. No one, not even the gunners question the accuracy. They can't. The report is factual.
------------------------------------------------------------------
the report is largely factual.... the problem is the perspective is biased by cherry picking and blinders..... that's the nature of both sides of this argument... we are all passionate about the issue, and in that rush, we bias our arguments...
this article shows a bunch of spotlights of gun violence this weekend, it emphasized white people, inferred that the numbers are a major cause of preventable deaths in America and a bunch of other things..
the job of the news is to inform in a neutral way... not to bias the discussion... so he's getting attacked not only by radicals but by moderates who want to seriously look at the issue....
the problem I have is that
A- the gun issue, while very serious, is far outweighed by other causes of death and injury that are THOUSANDS of percent larger in their impact on our population
B- NBC is continuously pushing the gun control side of this issue because it's such a emotional issue right now... when their job is to present both sides of the issue...
C- the main reason this country is getting so screwed up is that our news apparatus... which gets special protection in the Bill of Rights... continually allows itself to be driven by ads, and misdirection from serious issues that our polticians fool the electorate with...
This gun issue is a classic... background checks are a slam dunk... bans will almost certainly go no where... but as long as Congress can keep us distracted by a protracted fight, then can put off fixing the economy, stopping wars, balancing the budget, and fixing entitlements.... and the media is their puppet to make it happen.... so neither the press nor congress are doing their jobs... what they owe to us... they just keep on taking from us.... both of them
Bill Dedman, thank you for a well-researched and well-written article. Don't let the rabid gun apologists dissuade you from speaking out about the horrendous toll that guns are taking on America.
kaybeetoys
Trying to reason with the gun nuts about guns is a waste of time. They refuse to understand how accidents and suicides could happen in their homes, to their families, with their guns.
It's sad, but in effect it is culling the gene pool.
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I feel that arguing with anti gun nuts is wasting time... they refuse to understand how:
- continuing to erode the Bill of Rights harms freedoms as a whole,
- restricting such rights has been used repeatedly throughout the last 80 years as an excuse to weaken the ability of a population to resist the further erosion of their freedoms
- countries who have heavily restricted firearms have seen remarkable increases in crimes against persons
- the US has more guns than people and 48% of us own guns... we aren't a small minority of crackpots and our opinion matters
- restricting guns reduces risk for criminals... making the probability of them getting hurt perpetrating crimes on normal people much smaller and embolding them (Chicago)
It's sad, but I guess if anti gun nuts get their way the gene pool will be culled by muggings and home invasions as they skyrocket....
Also, I'm a gun owner and nearly everyone I know is.... and no one I've known in my entire life has been hurt... and I have avoided being a victim of violent crime THREE times.
If you really want to lower homicides, all we need to do is look at the rough estimates.
~75% of all homicides were done by felons.
~30% of all homicides were done by people convicted of kidnapping, manslaughter, murder, homicide, kidnapping or attempted any of the previously mentioned crimes.
Instantly drop the homicide rate by 30% by never letting anyone out of jail that is convicted of kidnapping, manslaughter, murder, homicide, kidnapping or attempted any of the previously mentioned crimes.
NBC couldn't have investigated if all of those doing the killing those days had felony convictions but I briefly noticed that the list documented many that were felons.
As for the idea that suicides by any other means have better potential to survive, this idea is really not intellectually honest. We know many people in the USA fain an attempt to commit suicide in order to reach out, this is well understood in the psychology field. The weak attempt to say that had people that committed suicide by firearm had NOT had a firearm that they would have more likely survived based on survival stats of attempted suicides shows a poor understanding of the field. When people truly intend to kill themselves they almost always succeed and with or without a firearm they tend to do so. The presence of firearms or lack thereof has no impact on the number/rate of suicides.
Oldhamletman, are we so fixated on 'freedom' here that we have forgotten its meaning? I don't feel free if I can't go to the mall, to a movie, to a public gathering, or feel my child is safe at school.
NO ONE is going to take away your darling guns.
The point of this article goes far beyond 'home protection'. Guns also cause death by accident and suicide. It is an unacceptable toll.
The only way to stop the gun carnage is to make it clear to gun nuts that guns are not making them safe...quite the opposite. Fifty percent of all suicides in this country are committed with a gun.
I have worked with survivors of attempted gun suicide.
I know two children who were accidentally killed by guns.
The simple and most direct answer would be to do the most stringent back ground check possible when the driver's license / ID is issued or renewed. This could include all records and databases concerning MHMR case work, Emergency Mental Applications, psychotropic drug prescriptions, AA and NA attendance records, any convictions including tickets, which show a predisposition towards violent behavior, as well as drug or alcohol addiction, and finally check the DHS no fly lists and E-verify databases. Those who could legally posses firearms would get a green border or mark on the their card and those who could not would get a red one. It could then be a felony to possess, sell, provide, or furnish a firearm to anyone without an ID or a one with the red border.
Bill Dedman #2.12
There is no question that those who commit suicide by gun are far more successful than those who commit suicide by other means. However, not everyone who attempts suicide are as committed to ending their life as those who shoot themselves.
The estgranged husband of one of my cousin's committed suicide by taking a bottle of pills, and then calling my cousin. Unfortunately for him, she wasn't home and he died before she got his message. As I understand, he tried this at least once before but was rescued because the person he called answered their phone and was able to call 911 in time.
My cousin's estranged husband was letting fate decide whether he lived or died. A person who holds a gun to his or her own head, pretty much knows what's going to happen when he or she pulls the trigger.
Oh goody, another person who seems to have no idea of what the UK is like.
Have you actually checked to see how violent crime is recorded in the UK? Hint - you are comparing apples and oranges.
I'm at a loss why you are looking only at metropolitan areas of over 250,000 people. There is a smaller population in the UK, you would EXPECT cities to have lower overall populations. Here's another (better) way of looking at it. Population density.
UK - 254 people per sq. m. 90% of population classed as "urban"
US - 33 people per sq. m. 81.7% of population classes as "urban"
What this says to me is that, whilst cities are not as populated in total, people live closer together generally. Suburbs are more densely populated. More people living closer together generally means more overall crime.
Being english myself I know this is true from experience. I grew up in a "suburb", but it was
Hey Bill, glad to see you came to TRY to protect your position. The problem is you ALWAYS leave out one VERY IMPORTANT statistic.
THAT IS THE NUMBER OF LIVES THAT ARE SAVED ON A DAILY BASIS BECAUSE REGULAR PEOPLE OWN AND KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THEIR GUNS.
Focusing on only ONE SIDE of an issue is not reporting. That is MANIPULATION.
@ don the number one way criminals gets guns are they still them
miklkit:
You and smbusownrinny both keep saying "guns should be as regulated as cars are".
Sure, as soon as cars are considered one of the RIGHTS of being an American! However, they're not - they are a privilege and as such, the regulations on them are entirely appropriate. The Right to Bear Arms, however, is just that, a RIGHT. Because of that, and that little tagline at the end of the 2nd Amendment "Shall not be infringed".. that means that infringing on MY RIGHT to keep and bear arms is ILLEGAL.
Bill Dedman @ 2.2: "Cory and 2little, thanks for your comment. Are you suggesting that it's not appropriate to note violent deaths and to research their causes. Whatever happened to the American can-do spirit of figuring out what's causing the problem and fixing it? Or would you say, because of your views on gun ownership, that gun deaths are a problem only if the media focuses on them?"
Just one question, if there had not been Sandy Hook would you still be reporting on gun deaths?
I believe you would not. You would be writing about some other trumped up bleeding liberal cause. You believe yourself to be a reporter or journalist, I'd call you a sheep.
kaybeetoys----Just so you know freedom comes with danger, your lie of safety and security comes with oppression which happens to be the opposite of freedom. You cannot be free and safe at the same time. Only an idiot does not recognize the difference.
As far as knowing someone killed by guns, my 15 year old son shot himself playing Russian roulette, I believe knowing someone or losing someone differ by great degree. In that respect your response is less than honorable and devoid of true knowledge so keep it to yourself.
From your comment, I can derive that any attempt at an intelligent conversation with you would be a waste of my time. Let me just say that if you want to whine about a single "new source" like Fox News being biased yet ignore the OBVIOUS bias of 10-12 mainstream news outlets I could rattle off then you are an insipid idiot. Liberal news outlets outnumber conservative ones 10-1 and the liberals still whine about the 1.
And if you can't tell the difference between the "violence" of a child accidentally killing themselves with a firearm and the murderous intent of a mass-murdering sociopath, then you shouldn't even be allowed to post in a forum with intelligent, rational adults. Classifying them equally as "violent gun deaths" demonstrates an imbecile's grasp of the concepts at play.
NBC is so anti-gun it scares me. I guess there wasn't enough raw emotion in the media today... so let's stir up the pot we already have simmering.
I am disgusted with our nation's news media.
Kunter
I guess you believe it is much better to put your head firmly into the sand and ignore gun deaths so that no one will think about legislating gun responsibilities in an effort to minimize the unacceptably high number of firearm deaths in this country. Let's all just pretend those deaths don't happen so Kunter can have his gun rights without any of those bothersome responsibilities. Why should we have any background checks when it is obvious that anyone who has money to buy a gun is never going to use that gun improperly?
don97524 there is a coma after the words Well Regulated Militia,
That means the Militia is the Governments people. The second was written
and added to the Bill of Rights as were all of the first 10 amendments..
To protect "We the People" FROM the Government.
A little research and you'll not look so foolish.
lets puts things in perspective...........Amazing NO ONE WANTS TO BAN TOBACCO!!!!!!!!!! WHY IS THAT?
over 500 thousand deaths and yes some of those are kids!
alcohol - over 107 thousand deaths and yes those include kids!
Fire arms - not even 12,000 thousand!
now if you read the story it has NO deaths to high capacity magazines and the AR-15 piece were the son waited for his father to get home. how could a ban stop this !it can't, WHY because the father owned the gun legally and it should have been locked up, to avoid is son or anybody else from obtaining it !
We dont need more bans what we need is that ALL gun owners LOCK up your weapons ! and gun violence would drop 65% !
'merkins... and their guns.
Kunter, I supposed you would much prefer to never read/see gun violence in the news media. That way you and your kind who are "so disgusted" by the reporting of such, could live in a world of harmony and peace while you pretend the dozens of killing using guns (that occur every week) never happen in this country. Yep... Bill Maher is spot on... many people choose to live in a bubble where they can remain unapproachable to reality.
Watch fox, where the news is balanced, not just left wing propagandal
What? Faux noise, the outfit that sued so that they could lie on national television?
Remember that 92% of Americans are for gun regulation.
Here come the "you don't care about" people such as Don. Hilarious, and pathetic.
You all show so much interest in controlling guns when they tally up one of the lightest death tolls compared to cars, tobacco, cancer, etc...
To apply your logic because you refuse to talk about it:
You obviously don't care about cancer patients, addicted smokers, people hit by drunk drivers, people stabbed, etc.
Pull your heads out of the sand, then pull the sand and your heads out of your asses.
Think logically, not emotionally. Statistics on the FBI's website show a decrease in violent crime over nearly the past 20 years. The assault weapons ban did as the people who pay attention expected, it did nothing to curb gun violence. We even had a school shooting with guns that didn't even fall under the ban.
If you want to ban/control guns, the pro is that gun violence decreases. The con is that all other forms of violence increase, if you get rid of, restrict, make harder to acquire, or whatever else you can do to guns, criminals will just hit the next best thing.
More guns solve NOTHING. Less guns solve NOTHING.
Why are we working on controlling gun violence when we should be working on controlling violence in general?
Source?
Rat cheer.
Gun control: Surge in support, new poll shows - Los Angeles Times
Desoto Kim
Your knowledge of history is biased and woefully incorrect. At the time of the Constitution and for many years following independence this country had no standing army and no militia. There were not even police departments or sheriffs in most places. Therefore, your contention that " the Militia is the Governments people." is ridiculous. The militia was considered to be the citizens of this country and that is how the 2nd Amendment is still applied ..... by the Supreme Court. Bottom line, well regulated applies to gun rights.
Here's an example. Machine guns .... fully automatic weapons have been declared illegal. This country can do that through democratic process because the government has an obligation to follow the "well regulated" part of the 2nd Amendment. At the time that machine guns were declared illegal assault weapons had not yet been invented. The government, through democratic process defined by the Constitution, can declare assault weapons illegal, or require universal background checks, or ban large capacity ammunition magazines .... and it is all perfectly legal under the Constitution.
Miklkit,
After going to the page of the gallup poll that this came from, I found the PDF on how they surveyed this.
This is the same poll that was criticized a week or two ago for being on MSNBC and another one on gallup for abortion that stated "the majority of Americans..."
1,038 people is only 1/303931 of the country. (Number used was 315,481,000 for population)
Since when does one three hundred thousandth of a a country represent the majority?
A big problem with this is the Supreme court also ruled that the second amendment applies to the individual, therefore, "shall not be infringed" can conflict with being "well regulated." By current definition (I think, I'm no constit. professor) "well regulated" could pertain to training, or regulations such as dress codes. Confusing as all mighty hell.
No Don the second amendment so the people could be protected from the government
From the Decleration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —
Now you see, the long chain of abuses the founding fathers had just suffered were caused by the rightful king of England. They wrote the declaration of independence to explain to all mankind why they were declaring Independence.
They wrote the Bill of rights (the key 10 rights we all share) to set a basis of the constitution and lock the major rights in place so all understood.
Now the constitution was written at a time where people knew and understood a lot better then we do what a government is capable of in terms of causing harm to The People. And the Founders knew that there was no way in heck the revolution would have been possible without an armed populace.
Right in the middle of the Declaration they specifically state "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
That is the Founders outright saying that NO Government can be trusted to always put the people first, they believe that sooner or later the revolution may need to be repeated. They specifically placed the second amendment into the Bill of Rights to ENSURE it would be safe FROM Government.
If we are going to do history lessons let's really get in there.
Don it is also pitiful that you do not even know our/your history or the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.
I showed you above about the 2nd amendment but for you I see it's alright to just do away with my rights.
This comment by you is also wrong. Machine guns are not illegal, they just require a permit to own them. Well along with paying a special tax on them also.
I quess you are alright that the Fed can lock you and your family up for years with no charges and not even let you talk to a lawyer.
You must also be alright with no knock warrents and cops sticking their fingers inside you or your family for something as simple as a traffic stop.
You must also be alright with losing part of your freedom of speech(1st amendment) with HR 347
these are just a few for you, Heck maybe even if some high ranking Gov. offical said your Dad was EVIL then it would be alright for Obama to strike you and your family dead while vacationing oversees.
Now let's see how much NON-gun violence there was in the U.S. during that same time frame. Oh, wait, murders, suicides and accidents involving knives, hammers, feet, hands, clubs, cars, etc, etc, etc, etc JUST ARE NOT NEWSWORTHY.
Bill Dedman, thank you for a well-researched and well-written article. Don't let the rabid gun apologists dissuade you from speaking out about the horrendous toll that guns are taking on America.
Yes Mr. Dedman and by all means continue to drone on about how it's guns in particular and ignore the facts that homicidal idiots will find a way and criminals don't follow the law anyway so introducing new ones will do absolutely nothing. Don't talk about things like I mentioned above which caused about six times more preventable deaths than the weekend of "gun violence". Please! Lord, think it's time to switch the home page for news over to Fox. NBC is obviously bought.
The Quacked One: WRONG!!!
According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, between 2006 and 2010 47,856 people were murdered in the U.S. by firearms, more than twice as many as were killed by all other means combined.
That includes "knives, hammers, feet, hands, clubs, cars", bla bla bla. Newsworthy now?
Don - because guns MADE these criminals use them.
Guns make people do things.
I have 5. Does this mean they have been waiting to tell me to shoot people?
Haven't heard anything yet.
Oh yeah.
I don't find myself caring much that gang members shoot each other.
Now, show me some statistics that prove that law abiding gun owners with no previous records are a serious public health threat to the average unarmed citizen and I'll listen.
Until then, go study some statistics and facts and see what that does to your opinion.
In yet another desperate bogus attempt to create an illusion of massive firearm deaths across the country NBC takes the cake again. The reality is these mainly happen in gang invested areas of bigger cities. A very very small proportion of the country. This story is dying out with the american public. People are tired of hearing about it face it, we like our ,they are not going away. Death by unnatural means is never going away. Because of these stories more people then ever are buying guns. People that never thought of owning one before have bought them so I guess we can thank NBC. (Maybe they own firearm related stock hmm.) I have some ideas lets start moving people out of big cities since that seems to be a problem when large groups of people get together. Instead of violating most of the country's civil rights lets just limit to the people that cause most of the problems. Most of these deaths are gang related so we lock down the gang invested neighborhoods kick in their doors drag them out of their houses take away their kids eliminate the gang bangers and sterilize whose left. Next the mentally ill. They used to be locked safely away, but nooo we dont do that anymore well lets get back to locking them up. Lets start a congressional investigation into these mind altering anti-psychotic drugs that many of the mass shooters and suicide victims are on and find out whats really going on there. (Big pharma might not like that tho.) There we get rid of two problems gang bangers and mass shooter mentally ill types and we dont violate a whole country's constitutional rights just the ones causing most of the problems.
peteMT: That was a "flat earth" reply if I have ever heard one. Sporting a unibrow and responding to friends with "ug. Pete is man. Pete wear gun." are we?
Reality is that most people think guns are a panacea. They're not. Very few legal owners train with their gun and even fewer train in live fire scenarios. People own guns because they are afraid and fearful people rarely train. And people who don't train end up getting their gun used against them, or shooting this kids by accident.
Now, go back to your big man world and play army. Real men deal with the real world.
Monkey, I have my guns out shooting every other weekend ....way more than most cops I know......I handload my own ammo and know my firearms inside and out...... The only two eneimies my guns have are Antigun nutjobs/politicians and rust.....I intend to keep both as far away from my guns as possible
monkey -
Too bad you aren't a 'real man', then, isn't it?
I feel sorry for you in that you are willing to give up your freedom for a little 'security'. Grow up and accept responsibility as a citizen of the US.
By the way, have you actually read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?
Horrible of NBC or anyone else to remind us that shootings are as much a part of our lives as reading newspapers, getting haircuts or walking the dog. Better not to cover the next slaughter, the next mass shootings. We have a second amendment, after all.
From the World Health Organization – the latest murder statistics for the world
Murders per 100,000 citizens. The United States is easy to find. It’s at the very bottom. ALL the countries listed above America have 100% gun bans
Brilliant, TrustVerify
You use all of the undeveloped countries in the world to compare to the United States. You left out all of the developed countries .... you know, the countries that are more like ours.
What it tells me is that EVERY DEVELOPED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD DOES A BETTER JOB OF CONTROLLING GUN DEATHS THAN THE UNITED STATES.
You use only the the facts that support your feeble argument and ignore those facts that are inconvenient. Intellectually dishonest and willfully ignorant.
Trust,
You're wrong. I took the first country in your list. In Honduras you can purchase, own, and carry firearms. They've started enacting some restrictions because of the murder rate, but until 1985 there were zero restrictions. Why would you post something that is false?
Hello Don and Pragmatic, they have the Shills working overtime, do you get double time on Sunday's? As you can see people are waking up to Obama's gun ban agenda. The people see that our country is bankrupt, we are propping up our stock market and economy printing 85 billion dollars of monopoly money every month just to keep us afloat!
You have to be blind not to see what is coming. I was hoping we would have more time before everything goes sideways but that doesn’t appear to be the case.
The question is what happened to the US. How about the Trillions of dollars of bank thefts? We have and still are witnessing the biggest bank robbery in history and the banks are doing the robbing. Our country lost most of the equity (trillions) on mortgages through the mortgage bond fraud. The housing market and banks are insolvent. Housing is bottom bouncing at best!
We failed to charge, jail and eliminate these parasites so they have continued their unscrupulous ways. HSBC and Wells Fargo were both caught laundering money for the drug cartels and terrorist groups and instead of jailing them they fined them instead, stating that if they prosecuted the bankers it would threaten the financial system.
The US has shown that it has a devotion to war. If you didn’t know this the alphabet security agencies run the international drug trade. From a modest 185 tons at the start of American intervention in 2001, Afghanistan now produced 8,200 tons of opium, a remarkable 53 percent of the country’s GDP and 93 percent of global heroin supply. We control Columbia as well through our southern corridor; does Fast and Furious ring a bell?
The devotion to war has resulted in an added 3 trillion in the USGovt deficit just since 2003, and half the overall 17 trillion in total. We are pumping 85 billion a month to keep our economy and stock market propped up and interest rates at 0% so that we can service our debt. 80% of our debts are covered by the printing press. The printing presses are in overdrive with money going to assist Europe. The 1.4 quadrillion Derivatives casino has been exposed, JPMorgan lost billions in an Interest fixing scam. The 800 trillion Libor Interest rate fixing fraud should be enough to see that the whole system is rigged including the gold market.
Countries are asking for their gold back (which we don’t have) because we are smack dab in the middle of a worldwide Currency War where the US dollar is being phased out while other countries are contemplating going back to the gold standard with possibly pegging it to the Chinese Yuan.
In 1999 you could see the beginning of the end. This is when the majority of the factories were outsourced to Asia, mostly China. We can’t compete with Asia on a wage basis, nor a union basis, nor on a government regulatory basis, and increasingly on a quality basis we stopped making things which means no income and we became more reliant on asset inflation. We have never recovered from the lost revenue and our deficits have literally grown out of control.
A lot of people can read the writing on the wall. Whether you want to admit it, the erosion of our civil liberties like the second and fourth amendment, drones in our skies, Homeland Security buying AR15 rifles and hollow point bullets, the president announcing that you can assassinate US citizens abroad or in America under very vague circumstances is not just writing on the wall but a flashing wake the hell up sign.
Pointing out facts doesn't make me a shill. I know taking the position of truth isn't popular because it doesn't push an agenda.
I don't have any objections to the opinions in the rest of your post and I happen to agree with some of the points you make. I'm a staunch supporter of the forth amendment, so it's been a really rough and depressing 12 years for me.
The WHO list shows that there are about 90 countries with higher rates, and about 100 countries with lower rates. Why not provide all the information? Or just that which will prove your bias? Canada 1.6 France 1.1 Germany 0.8 Ireland 1.2 Norway 0.6 Australia 1.0 India 3.4 Should we be glad that the U.S. is in the top half of the list?
Can we see a comparative map of "deaths by auto" including road accidents and those who commit suicide by carbon monoxide in their garage and those accidentally killed by carbon monoxide from cars? Without guns, murderers will simply resort to using knives, baseball bats, metal pipes, poison, vehicular homocide, etc. Murders by policemen, as reported in this article, will never be affected by any gun ban because policemen will always have guns. Also, criminals will always be able to smuggle guns into the USA from other countries, while ordinary citizens will be totally disarmed, if gun bans are put in place.
Don't worry pragmatic, when they take all the guns, you will then get droned instead.
You will never be free - not in America.
I see from the map that the District of Columbia (Washington DC), which has very strong gun control in place has more gun deaths than the state of Virginia which has very liberal gun access and the state of Maryland, also a state having strong gun control laws in place, has more gun deaths than the state of Virginia. In Virginia, any person purchasing a gun has to present proof of residence in the state of Virginia and has to submit to a criminal background check before the transaction can be completed. Its not the wide open free-for-all gun bazar portrayed in the press. There is a huge reality gap in the media reports on this subject.
Sgty maybe you should research the death rates for all those countries with knives, bare hands, or blunt objects. The murder rates are still there they are just more brutal. Guns Save Lives. Also did you know for the last 5 years in America we've averaged over 30,000 car deaths a year. Thats over 80 deaths a day and actually closer to 88-91 deaths a day when you look at the real numbers. Maybe we should stop driving places and walk more to prevent car related deaths. DON"T OWN CARS THEY KILL PEOPLE!
A much more effective way of providing security against gun violence would be to install a security door system which closes in on a person carrying weapons. This technology exists now and can be seen at:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/technology/robot-hallway-will-push-out-suspected-gunmen-331435.html
this system can be installed in all schools and does not require arming school personnel.
The security door system that catches gunmen and traps them in a "man trap" is manufactured by Barbecan Security Systems and can be installed now without any changes in legislation which is likely to be a long fruitless battle. This will be less costly and more cost-effective than the simplistic anti-gun legislation currently being proposed.
Since the subject is unnecessary deaths, where in this article did it mention the thousands of week-end deaths caused by 'high fructose corn syrup in food that tricks a person into over-eating and developing obese related disease ? Where does it mention the hundreds of speed related week-end deaths caused by vehicles capable of going twice the legal speed limit, or the hundreds of week end deaths caused by over-dose or side effects of prescription drugs ?
While one death is certainly unacceptable to families of loved ones, we cannot prevent accidents or irresponsible actions by the few purely by way of laws or restrictions that criminals choose to ignor.
Instead of taking away the guns, sugar, vehicles and prescription drugs from the masses, why not focus on keeping these items away from children, felons and the mentally ill?.... Like illegal immigration, laws unenforced are the same as no laws at all.
Joe M
Your example of the gun violence in DC is irrational. Any thought that guns may be finding their way into DC because of the ease of obtaining a gun in the surrounding areas? Do you think that might be a problem for DC? Your statement is verification that FEDERAL GUN LEGISLATION is needed to curb the gun violence in urban areas. The cities do not have walls that isolate them from the surrounding areas and there are no strip searches or metal detectors for people entering the city.
TrustVerify
If I wanted to learn about the moronic conspiracy theories that you rant about (#4.4) I would watch Fox and listen to Rush and Glenn. Since I fear the brain damage that would cause, I'll pass. You are a dupe of the right wing media .... I hope you get some entertainment value from all of that noise.
Hello Don, as I have mentioned on numerous occasions I'm a political atheist, I don't care what political religion one wants to attach themselves to. As far as I'm concerned we have a one headed two party system who both serve their masters, the banksters/Federal Reserve and Wall Street. They are equally complicit and corrupt in the demise of our moral, social and economic system.
Oh don so naive. So Trust had also posted above about the Banks and the US devotion to war and you call it conspiracy theories. So the over a billion dollars a year we give to Yemen in anti-terrorist training and weapons alone is a conspiracy? Consider in 2001 Yeman had no Al-Qaeda and they really became bigger there after we started bombing them. Obama's first bombing in Yemen was a cruise missle strike which hit a village killing over 40 women and children and since then the US has killed more women and children there then military aged men. The US also considers anyone with Anti-American sentiment there a terrorist. Well how would you feel if someone kept killing your family, friends, village elders and innocent civilians.
This is only one country and we do this in dozens of them. People need to wake up and see that it is US policy that is causing these groups to become bigger and more people to hate us. Problem is people like you just keep believing the propaganda
MILLER: David Gregory gets off scot free
By Emily Miller - The Washington Times
January 11, 2013
The attorney general for the District of Columbia, Irvin Nathan, announced Friday that he will not press charges against NBC News’ David Gregory nor any employee of the broadcast network for violating the city’s gun laws. Violation of the city's firearms laws carry a maximum $1,000 fine and one year in jail.
Mr. Nathan wrote to an attorney representing Mr. Gregory and NBC News, Lee Levine of Levine Sullivan Koch & Schulz, LLP, that, “OAG has made this determination, despite the clarity of the violation of this important law, because under all of the circumstances here a prosecution would not promote public safety in the District of Columbia nor serve the best interests of the people of the District to whom this office owes its trust.”
In the three-page letter, Mr. Nathan also wrote that “no specific intent is required for this violation, and ignorance of the law or even confusion about it is no defense." He said, "We therefore did not rely in making our judgment on the feeble and unsatisfactory efforts that NBC made to determine whether or not it was lawful to possess, display and broadcast this large capacity magazine as a means of fostering the public policy debate.”
The full text of the letter is at the bottom of this story.
The “Meet the Press” anchor ignored police guidance and held up an illegal 30-round rifle magazine in his D.C. studio during an interview on Dec. 23 with the National Rifle Association’s Wayne LaPierre on gun-control laws.
The Metropolitan Police Department (MPD) concluded the three-and-a-half week investigation into the allegations -- seen live on national TV -- without an arrest by turning over the facts to the Office of the Attorney General (OAG).
In 2012, the police arrested at least 105 people for charges that included possession of a magazine that can hold more than 10 rounds. The OAG charged 15 of those people in cases that included a “high-capacity feeding device or extended clip.”
Ted Gest, the OAG’s spokesman, explained that, “This does not mean that the 105 arrests were presented to us and we charged only 15. Most of the arrests never made it to us — MPD either didn’t bring them to us or brought them to the U.S. Attorney.”
One of the 15 charged was James Brinkley, an Army veteran and federal employee, who was arrested and jailed while legally transporting his unloaded Glock 22 to the range with the two standard 15-round magazines that came with the pistol.
D.C. Assistant Attorney General Rachel Bohlen offered Mr. Brinkley a deal to plead guilty to possession of an unregistered firearm in return for unsupervised probation. He refused to falsely admit guilt.
“I hadn’t done anything wrong,” he told me in an interview. “I felt in my heart I was doing the right thing. I was going to stand up, no matter what the outcome would be.”
In fact, Mr. Nathan wrote in his letter about letting off Mr. Gregory: "We have a history of aggressively prosecuting violations of this statute where the circumstances warrant. There is no doubt of the gravity of the illegal conduct in this matter,especially in a city and a nation that have been plagued by carnage from gun violence."
After a heated trial, Magistrate Judge Elizabeth Carroll Wingo gave a lengthy and thoughtful decision on the case and acquitted Mr. Brinkley of all the firearms charges.
It is shameful that the politicians running the nation’s capital have sent the clear message that there are two systems of justice in the city -- one for the rich and powerful and one for everyone else.
And "Desert Eagles" have never been available in .45 caliber. But hey, it's only details. Don't sweat it MSNBC.
Still one more anti-gun story put out by an anti-gun writer possessed of a simplistic childlike mentality, his hope that he can fuel a bit of illogical emotion.
It's understandable why this writer has no desire to list the incidents of the many people across the country that resorted to firearms to thwart criminal intent this weekend, a figure that dwarfs these deaths, because to list these occurrences would be contrary to his anti-gun agenda.
These and other gun death were overwhelmingly committed with handguns yet the gun grabbers would focus on the types they incorrectly call "assault weapons". This sordid little fact alone should expose their true agenda, which is to disarm the American people, one gun, one magazine, one bullet at a time, if necessary.
There's a reason a recent Gallop poll showed the NRA had a higher favorability rating than Obama, but the dullard Obama followers will never figure it out.
As pointed out, this story is rife with inaccuracies, but so what, as long as it's anti-gun, it's good enough for nbc.
I remember when drunk drive was funny, "Yeah! I was too drunk to walk so I had to drive home"? I worked construction many years, and always a story, on Monday, about someone so drunk they couldn't remember how they got home, and everyone would laugh. I remember talking to a night traffic court judge, who was a friend of mine, about how he drove home drunk, he had to go out and check his car in the morning to see if it had any dents on it, he was really freaked. But that gradually changed, and after awhile people started to be appalled at the practice of drunk driving, especially the Mad Mothers. All the dead people, and the children, maimed and broken. I think gun related deaths will some day go the same way, people will start to realize that the cost is to steep, the deaths to many, to have all the guns floating around without any real regulations. There is too much gun insanity now to have any meaningful ideas that will pass into laws so as to staunch the blood that flows out into the streets and floors, in America's homes and cities, on any given Sunday. Someday, but not today!!
No, imagoodshot, there's the gun often called the Baby Desert Eagle, and it's available in a .45. Confirmed with the police chief, and you can see them for sale online. Thanks for your comment.
Oh no! Let's now make driving illegal because alcoholics drive drunk!
Let's make kitchen knives illegal because gangbangers stab people.
Let's make tooth brushes illegal because prison gangsters sharpen them and kill eachother with them.
Wait I got an evermore brilliant idea. Let's make murder, rape, and drugs illegal too!
Let's ban all that stuff because, you know murderers will stop murdering, rapists will stop raping,
and drug addicts will stop thier addiction.
Look at the fear mongering you people conduct. Mr. Luther King Jr. was a victim of racial hate not some
random shooting.
All the while lets make it legal for only governmental workers to rape, use drugs, and murder. I mean that's essientially what you are saying right? Let only government have weapons and the ability to murder? But, let's not let the people have the ability to protect themselves.
let me see 91 died on a day. is that less than 1/10 of 1%. I was combat arms when I was a 20 something. I am a CWPH. i would never some little puke near mu weapons they are locked up but aavilable in haert beat whne neeeded. go piound some sand.
Right. Because a deliberate action and an accident is one in the same.
If a person runs over someone in a car, by accident, lets blame the car(car's don't kill people, people do, isn't that the staple argument?) (sarcasm)
On the other hands, a person choses to put a gun in their hand, for one purpose. To KILL but So sure lets compare the two.
I lived in Dallas for thirty years, and hardly a day went by that there wasn't a report of gun violence on the news. It was so commonplace that it barely rated above the puff pieces and the weather report.
I couldn't help but notice the poetic quality of the writing in this article. The feelings it stirs and how it holds you to them as you continue to read... Very effective. Indeed there are no easy answers and the one-size-fits-all legislation that so often gets trumpeted after a tragedy will likely never do much to improve any of this. However, with you having written a piece like this, causing gun owners like myself to ponder and discuss it all honestly and regularly, maybe we will see less of these tragedies caused by careless mistakes. It's understandable that a national discussion makes many of us nervous and often outwardly hardened with respect to our rights but it is good to be thinking about it. Our kids are safer I believe when we all "think about it".
I see clearly how any firearm is in the process of being stigmatized the same way cigarettes were. The big difference is that just the act of smoking a cigarette can harm you and others around you during the normal act of smoking it. A firearm cannot. There must be deliberate intention or gross negligence involved for a firearm to injure anyone.
Yes...let's do research them. Let us look at deathe rates around the world, with knives, bare hands, blunt objects or whatever.
The US has 4.8 murder deaths per year per 100,000 population. By contrast, the UK has 1.2, Italy has 1.0, France has 1.1, Germany has 0.9, Spain has 0.8. It is the same in most of the advanced countries, not just Europe: Japan has 0.4, Canada has 1.8, Australia has 1.2.
The WORST country on this list, Canada has 38% of what we have, and many countries have far less. By and far, we look closer to a lawless 3rd world country than to an industrialized nation: for example, Pakistan has 7.3, Yemen has 3.5, compare that to our 4.8.
You can find the full table here: http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/Homicide_statistics2012.xls .
Not even close.
Also keep in mind all the restrictions placed on you in order to operator a car: you have to take a 6-month training course to use it, and you have to register the car with the government, as well as prove that you are competent to operate it. In addition, you have to have insurance, in case anyone is harmed through the use of your car.
It's kind of funny how people say cars are just like guns, and then fall silent when we point out all the restrictions that everyone thinks are reasonable in order to operate a car.
Actually, if you had bothered to read the article before going off on a tirade, the author listed the cases of justified homicide as well.
The whole idea that you can use a gun to defend your home is stupid. If a criminal is going to rob your home, don't you think he's going to bring a bigger gun? Let's assume there are thousands of cases where a homeowner successfully repels a criminal. If there were such, there would be just as many cases of homeowners shot by robbers.
Or do you really think that being a good guy also means that you are a better shot? Kind of funny that you are telling us that the author is childish.
Byron Raum Guns are used by U.S. citizens every day in their homes, businesses, etc. to protect their lives, they are almost never reported (by the media) however. Google those statistics.
Do those other countries tabulate their statistics the same as the U.S.? We count suicide, accidents, self-defense and so on. You have to compare Apples to Apples
The problem with this idea is that we have been doing it for four years now, and things are getting better, not worse. Most of the economy is showing a recovery, the main reason we have a stubbornly high unemployment rate is that Obama has been shrinking government, laying off government workers.
While you have a nice conspiracy theory and everything, and it plays nicely into Obama being a Communist Big Spender, the simple fact is that US Government spending is authorized by Congress. By law, Obama spends whatever Congress authorizes him. Of course, a sitting President has power, so he can influence what Congress tells him to spend, but that, of course, is subject to politics.
When the economy crashed in 2007/8, tax receipts also crashed because Americans weren't making as much money as before. Because immediate government cuts at the time would have forced us into a complete Depression - a fact that even Republican Congressmen at the time understood - our government spending didn't drop as fast, so we started racking up debt. As the economy recovers, people pay more taxes because they make more money, and our deficit has dropped and continued to drop.
The correct way to deal with the national debt, of course, is to make more money. The way to make more money is to have a vibrant economy, so that people make more money and the government then gets a larger tax base. It is unfortunate that Republicans hate this idea so much; they want us to shrink the economy; that is the reason we liberals think that Republicans are all complete nuts. Despite what Republicans say, our Big Problem isn't the debt. Our Big Problem is jobs. Fix jobs, and the debt starts shrinking.
Either way, though, things are getting better. As far as "printing money" is concerned: of course we are getting money off printing presses. Where do you think the money in your pocket came from? All money was printed. That is where money comes from: printing presses.
And exactly how many people were killed on this weekend by drunk drivers, or by texting while driving.
By "Apples to Apples", do you mean comparing "murder death rate to murder death rate?" Because that is what the link I posted does. The heading is, "Intentional homicide, count and rate per 100,000 population (1995 - 2011)." I'd imagine it's pretty easy to tell if someone has been killed intentionally, no? Did you even bother to follow the link before commenting on it?
Beyond that, the idea that guns save lives is idiotic. Criminals also have access to the same guns you do. The idea that somehow you are going to win if you are armed is some sort of juvenile fantasy. When a good guy and a bad guy are involved in a shootout, do you seriously think the good guy is guaranteed to win?
So we shouldn't worry about gun deaths because people get killed by drunk drivers? Exactly how is this supposed to work? We shouldn't care about any gun deaths till all drunk driving has ceased? Or what?
No one considers the "Baby Desert Eagle" line a desert eagle but it's understandable why an inexperienced shooter would.
Thanks for your comment.
i have to know Byron Raun would taking the guns away stop gun
death? I would like to point out that the comment you made about
defending your home with a gun is stupid is itself stupid i HAVE
defended my home with a gun lucky for me without having to fire a
shot but i would have. The thing with defending your home is the
ability to see it through, that’s what most people forget. I
personally own about 4 firearms i would like to own many more mostly
revolvers and replica types, but i would also like to see more
regulations such as background checks. I would also like to point out
a few inaccuracies about the time it takes to get a drivers license
such as the 6 months you spoke of im not sure about you state laws
but in Idaho if you are a legal resident of the age of 18 you can get
a Idaho license. you don’t have to have insurance if you have 50000
in cash with you, but you are right we do have to register it with
the state government. On the other hand you don’t have to get a
background check to bye a car in any state i have heard of. the last
part i would like to point out is that in a situation were the bad
guy has a gun i would like to say i would still feel better to have
one of my own then at least i have a chance to win rather then just
getting shot because that is what will happen if you don’t have the
gun. In 60% of hot burglary these are burglaries that happen when
people are present in the building the people are killed. Just
saying.
Byron Raum wrote:
"Also keep in mind all the restrictions placed on you in order to operator a car: you have to take a 6-month training course to use it, and you have to register the car with the government, as well as prove that you are competent to operate it. In addition, you have to have insurance, in case anyone is harmed through the use of your car.
It's kind of funny how people say cars are just like guns, and then fall silent when we point out all the restrictions that everyone thinks are reasonable in order to operate a car."
\
And you are completely ignoring all of the people who drive cars illegally. Do you know how easy it is to buy a drivers license? Do you know how many illegal aliens do that? How many people drive without insurance or even a drivers license? How many repeat offender drunk drivers continue to operate a motor vehicle?
The vast majority of people follow the laws, whether it's to drive a car or own a gun. Then you have that very small but dangerous amount of people who ignore the laws concerning operating a motor vehicle or owning a gun. If anything, your argument shows how futile it is to make laws and not enforce them properly, no matter how many laws are made to try and control something.
If you want to cut down on the number of car related deaths, go after the people who are ignoring the laws and causing most of the accidents. If you want to cut down on the number of gun deaths, go after the people who are ignoring the gun laws and causing these deaths. You'll never stop all of them but I'll bet 90% of them can be stopped.
Guns save lots of lives every year. This is well documented in newspaper articles around the nation everyday. I'd like to see a companion piece (since we're all trying to be intellectually honest reporters) of how many people used a firearm in the same period of time to thwart a crime! By most accounts about 11,000 crimes were stopped using a firearm in the same period.
Removing firearms from those that attempted suicide would typically save maybe 2% of all suicide victims.
Removing firearms from all civilians would raise murder numbers 1800 at current rates.
1200 fewer homicides would have happened last year had no one had a firearm, otherwise another weapon would have been used.
3000 more homicides would have been carried out because they would not have been prevented by the presence of a firearm by the intended victim.
This would be a net increase of 1800.
Violent crime in the USA would sore 648% from 386 per 100,000 to about 2500 per 100,000!
We have the data folks, why aren't we using it?
If you scan the map you'll see how many convicted felons committed homicides. Now NBC couldn't have found if all these people had prior felony convictions, that is understandable, however ~75% of homicides are committed by felons (you can find this stat on the DOJ website! 30% of all homicides were committed by people convicted of a prior homicide, force able rape, kidnapping or attempt of the prior mentioned crimes.
If we really want to instantly drop our homicide rate that would be easy! Never let out a person convicted of homicide/manslughter/forced rape/ kidnapping or attempting any of these.
Instant drop of 30%!
There is your answer folks. Do this first, watch the instances of homicide drop like a stone for two reasons. One 30% of the people that would have committed homicide would be in jail! The increased penalty would perhaps dissuade people from committing homicide.
Time to stop the revolving door justice system.
Now the 75% number of felon on felon crime, so I can be intellectually honest here, probably involved non-violent felons/felonies and many of those non-violent felonies probably involved nonviolent drug charges. In my opinion most of these felons probably shouldn't be felons at all, so take that stat with a grain of salt.
Byron, since you want to go over this. The problem is that everyone is complaining about gun violence. Not violence in general. People immediately say that a gun is wrong when one person is killed. Yet thousands upon thousands are killed by drunk drivers, and no one says anything. People are killed by drivers not paying attention to the road, and people sit back and complain about gun violence. Well hell, lets just take away all the guns from law abiding citizens when auto accidents kill a great deal more people per day than are shot. Oh wait, cars a regulated. So are guns. Cars have other uses, as does alcohol, and guns only have one. People that say that are full of it. A beer is as deadly a weapon as a gun, and everyone has accepted it. A car is as deadly a weapon as a gun and people have accepted it.
You want to compare deaths. Look up the mortality rate of a 35 mph collision. Look up the mortality rate of a 35 mph head on collision. Then look at the next speed limit sign you see and how fast your going. People forget about how dangerous vehicle are, because they have other uses. Yet they ignore the laws that REQUIRE you to drive at or below the speed limit. They think that their driving is so much better than everyone else and cannot possibly get into an accident. And everyone bitches about how dangerous guns are. The same holds true for the car as it does for a gun. The vehicle or weapon is not dangerous till someone takes control over it. Then it becomes a murderous weapon.
@Byron Raum If you are going to quote statistics get your statistics from an unbiased source. The UN has an antigun agenda aimed at the United States. I wouldn't trust any of the statistics they put out to the public any more than I trust most politicians!
Also, I have been to many of the countries listed, not quite as nice to visit as the numbers would portray.
STATISTICS DON'T LIE.... but they can be manipulated in any way to support ones agenda.
HERE'S SOME U.S. STATISTICS THE ANTI-GUN FREAKS DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW....
Deaths by PRESCRIBED MEDS in US hospitals..... 106,000 per yr ... 290 per day (Avg)
Deaths by NON-TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS..... 86,000 per year ... 236 per day
" " INFECTIONS from US HOSPITALS..... 88,000 / yr ... 241 per day
" " TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS (including car fires)... 34,000 / yr ... 93 per day
" " UNNECESSARY SURGERIES by doctors..... 19,000 / yr ... 52 per day
" " OTHER ERRORS by HOSPITAL Drs & staff.... 20,000 / yr ... 55 per day
" " GUNS (Includes ALL causes) ..... 11,000 / yr ... 31 per day
" " NON-GUN MURDERS (knife, poison, bomb, etc)... 5,600 yr ... 15 per day
" " FOOD POISONING (microbes and/or toxic changes)... 5,000 yr ... 14 per day
" " DROWNING (pools, streams, lakes, bathtubs, etc)... 4,000 yr ... 11 per day
" " NON-TRAFFIC FIRES (home, work, forest, etc)... 2,520 per yr ... 7 per day
" " WAR EFFORTS (military includes all causes)... 1,330 per yr (Avg) ... 4 per day
" " MERCURY POISONING (by various forms & routes)... 750 per yr ... 2 per day
So why isn't President Obama, the Gov't and the Anti-gun freaks closing hospitals, ending doctors careers, banning cars, bulldozing swimming pools, banning medications that kill, confiscating knives, inspecting foods more carefully, ending jobs that may cause accidental death, and on, and on and on?????????????
YOU ANTI-GUN PEOPLE ARE OUT OF YOUR EVER-LOVING MINDS.
464 children (age 5-14) drown every year (avg) in bathtubs, swimming pools, buckets and waterways.... but you don't see a ban on that. We keep building them.
288 children (age 5-14) die by guns every year (avg).
"THOUSANDS" of children (age 5-14) die in hospitals under the care of doctors and staff who repeatedly make all kinds mistakes in surgeries, procedures and medication tragedies.... but you don't see an outcry over that. We continue that process in an attempt save children even though some will die as mistakes and tragedy will continue.
YES, we all accept the risks and consequences of everything we do in this country. People die all of the time from all of this stuff, but we don't stop trying.
ONE THING IS FOR SURE.... We the American people are relatively FREE thanks to the brave men and women who took up FIREARMS to kick the crap out of oppressive British tyranny. WE WILL STAY FREE by owning advanced weaponry in order to put down any form of tyrannical take-over of OUR OWN US GOVERNMENT.
ONE MORE POINT.... We should not assume that our military is indestructible. We got our ass kicked in Vietnam and the middle east rag heads have sent plenty of our dead soldiers home. WE had intelligence that the 911 event was about to occur but we couldn't or wouldn't stop what happened on 911. Now we have 12 million ILLEGAL Mexicans in this country who don't give a damn about Americans....... and you don't think they could be a threat ON OUR OWN GAWD-DANG SOIL???? How many back-stabbing middle-east muslims are here now who could cause plenty of trouble for our military and police?
YES MY FELLOW AMERICANS.... There are 120,000,000 armed Americans ready to back up our military and police. WE ARE the most massive ARMY and MARINE force on this planet due to what we have in our homes, barns and bunkers. No one in the world can deny that power. We are the USA, and we will stay FREE. We will keep our AR-15s (semi-auto only), AK-47s (semi-auto NOT fully machine guns caable), semi-auto hunting rifles and hand guns. All 120,000,000 of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's time for our Washington DC and State Governments to stop their sniveling about the 2nd Amendment. It is time they start working for the American middle class, lower income and poor people. WE ARE THE POWER.
Death is a part of life...There are over 6800 deaths every day in the US. of those it appears 91 were caused by gun violence. There are over 300 million people in this country . Thats a pretty small percentage of the population really. I am not belittleing the loss of life needlessly but lets be realistic. With this many people there are bound to be needless deaths for a variety of reasons.To highlight gun violence and not highlight other no natural deaths is simply pushing an agena.
You know regardless how hard we try to avoid it. We will all be dead one day. Just the way it is. So we just do what we can do while we are still above ground.
I would like to see a map of the same timeframe outlining traffic fatalities nationwide.
Anyone read the story from Thomasville, N.C., where a guy killed a man who was beating his daughter? It was ruled justified.
Judging by the names in many of the stories, it appears we just need to ban minorities from having guns. The initial story seems to show mostly white victims' photographs, but read each story and it is apparent who the shooters/victims are.
1. During the last 30+years, Gun Town USA has experienced only 2+gun related murders. These were in a 'Gun FREE' School Zone. During this time only four murders occurred: two with knives (1984 & 1987) and two with a firearm (1997 & 2004)... Google - Gun Town USA
Kennesaw - a suburb of Atlanta, GA, now with a population OVER 32k, passed a Town Ordnance requiring ALL households to own and maintain a GUN, during 1982. Since then, they have enjoyed Crime Rates well BELOW the US Averages...
2. Unintentional Gun related deaths for children 14 & below average 60 a year in the USA. This is lower than the number of deaths caused by 'Lightning' - 62+average...
3. Suicides account for more than 52% of the average of 110+gun related deaths a day in the USA. The majority of this 52% were white males over 45. For males over 65 this jumps to 5x the US suicide average of 12 per 100k...
13dev,
There is a reason that the US Military Officer swears allegiance to “the Constitution of the United States,” NOT the UCMJ or any provision to obey orders...
Byron Raum
yes your link is nice and informative read it and tell me what the statistics are for Switzerland. Wow low hey and the country has more guns per capita then any country. Their crime rate is lower then most if not all and they have more guns so tell me again about how guns are bad. Chicago had over what was it 500 killed by guns last year and that makes it about 10 a month, oh and they have strict gun laws BUT lots of criminals. You and your minions blame the loose gun laws of other states. I would be good money if I where to take 10,00o into Chicago I could purchase a full automatic weapon. Where else could this be done?? Probably most large cities and that must be from those states which have the loose gun laws,Oops they are illegal there too , now who do you blame??
Ted to your point about what you don't hear. I live outside of Detroit and just this past week two workers for the city were robbed by two guys. When the guys came back to rob them again one of the workers pulled his gun and shot. He hit either one or both (don't remember). A week ago a 70 year old high school basketball coach was escorting two players to their cars (females) when two kids approached with a weapon, the coach scuffled with the kids and finally had to pull his weapon - shooting and killing one of the assailants, injuring the other. The dead kid's momma shows up on TV about how her son was a good boy, never been around guns, never did anything wrong. It comes out the next day that the "good boy" was awaiting trail for an armed robbery of a pizza place. We haven't seen or heard from momma again! But you never hear those stories (well other than the mother that defended her children and home in GA).
LMFAO!!
Only on good ole, liberal MSNBC would they ignore the fact that thousands of innocent folks are saved everyday by guns. The liberal police force here in South Florida where I live did a report that said violent home invasions, armed robberies, and attacks are plummeting due to so many Floridians being armed. The bad guys won't risk the chance of getting their brains blown out.
And it's hilarious this wacky, liberal reporter is blaming suicides on guns. LOL!
Why don't you go look it up?
Your question is a deflection from the topic at hand, which is death by guns in America through murder, accident and suicide.
The author of this article did a fine job researching and writing about the topic. He did not set out to do an exhaustive expose of all causes of death during the time frame of his research.
Your question is meaningless. Would you really prefer to look the other way, or do you want to try to make the gun carnage at least a little less intense in America?
13DEV - Obama doesn't want to stop hospital deaths, he's trying to nationalize it so that he can increase it. How else is he going to bail out Social Security and Medicare? He has to kill off the people collecting benefits.
The gun laws proposed are laughable. Even Biden said they wouldn't have stopped any killings. So all these liberals acting like they are doing something are just puffing smoke. But, they don't want to take insane people off the streets...funny huh?
Yeah, better to bury your head in the sand and pretend the slaughter of innocents doesn't exist, yet keep citing the second amendment.
Talk about a "Bias" article. O'Bama could have written the article himself and gave it to the reporter. How many of those deaths were caused by a Mentally unstable individual? How many of those deaths were the result of Criminal (Illegal) activity? How many were the direct result of Gang Activity?Once again, a Mother gives her gun to her children, like the mother in Conn., this mother should be charged with murder. The "felon" who had a weapon that he failed to "secure" causing a death. My guess is that the "Felon" did not worry about any "Background Check". I have a "Major Disagreement" with the Professor (someone should check his credentials) who said that having a weapon for Personal Protection just doesn't work. There are instances in this article where that did occur. Where I live weapons are used for Personal Protection. Anyone that visits a major urban area should "always" have their weapon available for self-protection. Law enforcement arrives "after" the Crime and/or murder has already been done. In places like Baltimore City, Washington,D.C., Chicago, etc. the animals roam the streets when the sun sets. Bottom line, more people die is car accidents, falls, poison, hammers, iron bars,etc. than with Guns. I guess the Professor in this article will want people to stop driving, no more Home Improvements because the hammer is used to kill people.
Sammy,
Guns save thousands of lives here in Florida. And this is the liberal police force who says this not me. They say criminals are stopping their violent armed robberies, attacks, and home invasions due to so many Floridians being armed and trained.
So 91 died in 3 days (And it's disgusting this reporter included suicides). Hundreds were saved at the same time due to guns. Again, the ultra-liberal police force in South Florida said this, not me.
Glad I could help straighten you out. You are welcome.
To call it "gun-crime" is incorrect. The guns don't commit the crime. Start taking the language back. This is not a gun problem. It is a "violent people" problem. Don't say get guns off the street. That solves nothing since the violent people are still on the street. Get violent people off the streets.
To the people rattling their sabers to "do something" the answer is simple.
Reduce homicides by ~30% by never ever letting out a person convicted of homicide/manslaughter/murder/rape/kidnapping or attempted any of the crime mentioned.
It will take a little while between enactment of such a law and the benefit to kick in because people don't usually get out of jail and the next day commit murder, regardless it will work and its right and just.
The stats are clear. These guys are responsible for 30% of the homicides in the usa. Why not start there?
Also ~75% of all homicides were commited by someone with a felony conviction. Maybe we ought to do some thinking about out prison system?
Lets start! I'm on board with that.
I'm not on board for punishing people who would never harm another, never have harmed another, just because they own something..
Ted,
best post of the day.
Why don't we put up a map of every single car accident death that day? We really need to ban cars they kill so many.
Over the years this country has addressed issues about unsafe cars, drunk driving, dangerous roads etc. We haven't eliminated traffic deaths, but we have substantially reduced them per capita. That's because we didn't hide from the problem. We decided to do what we could to reduce the carnage on the road. What is it with the gun lobby? If we don't come up with some simple plan to eliminate all gun deaths without eliminating any guns then there is no point in doing anything at all?
this is SO f'n lop-sided reporting !!! What happened to 'fair and balanced' -- ridiculous -- this is lame-stream media fulfilling their gun-grabbing agenda to support their end of the 2A God-given right. This doesn't even show the many incidents when a gun is 'only drawn' to deter a criminal or violent act. How can you make this MAP without the fact that the simple racking of a shotgun or pointing a handgun at someone has deterred the eminent violent crime that NEVER happened!!! Or a shot fired, or a person killed or injured.
tobacco,alcohol.autos.
As I believe Jim Carrey recently said, it is hard to get a car through the door of a classroom. I might add, it is also difficult to conceal and it usually doesn't go off accidentally.
There are over 450,000,000 people in this country. Murder, suicide and accidental death are emminent to happen. Deduct 91 people as a result of those people, NOT those guns.....
Furthermore, since the MEDIA wants to be so Predjudice.....
How many Children were born?
How many people died of cancer caused by smoking cigarettes'?
How many died from alcohol/ drug related accidents' and overdoses?
How many died from Auto accidents?
How many died from freezing to death?
How many died from hunger?
How many died from Heat exhaustion?
How many died from Obesity related illnesses and diseases?
Whats that? Those #'s don't count?
Well go to hell then...
For people to use guns like cars so they could actually be compared would mean about 80% of gun owners would have to take all their guns out in public and shoot it for about a hour a day.
If that was ever to happen I am pretty sure it would result in a more accidents and deaths than caused by cars.
You got a point. Now you got me thinking.
So how many car accident are actually suicide?
I have hear of people getting in cars and running over people. Some accidents, some on purpose.
I have also hear of people using their car for self-defence.
Have you ever hear of people driving thru a building or barricade and hurting or killing anyone.
So as you can see it is hard to compare the two.
Coincidence that anytime they show a map of "--fill in the blank--" it looks like a population map? More people in a given area will yield a higher rate of whatever it is that you're looking at or for.
Common sense really.
MJS, thanks for your comment. Though it doesn't quite track with what actually happened over that weekend. There are a lot higher population in all of New England, for example, than in Birmingham, Ala.
I noted no deaths in NYC. Why isn't the most populous city in the US on the map?
Pragmatic, no gun deaths reported that weekend in NYC. We had some big cities but a lot of suburbs and small towns, too. Some people seem surprised by that, apparently thinking that gun violence is only an urban problem.
Bill,
Thanks. My point was to note that the map doesn't follow a population map.
I would love to see the same map but the number of people killed by drunk drivers, they kill more people than guns.
A look at that map revealed NO 'spots' anywhere within about a 450 mile radius of where I live.
Yes, the spots were largely located in the nation's most populated areas, the east, the south, and the west coast with a few around the Chicago/Milwaukee areas and very few others. I suspect that the higher the population density, the great the number of opportunities for people to experience conflicts with others.
Most homicides where I live are not committed with firearms. We get mostly stabbings, beatings, and strangulation. There's quite a few guns around here, but people just don't seem to be using them to kill each other. I would observe that the people killing each other aren't exactly new to trouble and most are far from what anyone would call 'financially secure'. The people who have guns here usually are fairly well to do and have no real history of arrests or legal problems. Quite a few people carry concealed around here, and it's not any kind of a secret. Virtually all robberies are non-violent in nature where no weapon is presented, and sometimes the robber just reaches over and grabs cash out of the open register drawer and runs out the door. The troublemakers are virtually always out-of-towners who are passing through this community.
The one pattern I see in this article in the stories of people who killed someone else and/or themselves with a gun is that they generally seem to take themselves too seriously and that anyone who defies them or interferes with their plans or ambitions deserves to die for it. I'm sure in some cases it's true narcissism and in other cases it's grown men having deadly temper tantrums when they don't get their way.
Cars are well regulated. In the 1960s we were killing 54,000 Americans a year with our cars. That is down to around 34,000 a year now in spite of there being many more cars on the road than before.
Guns need to be well regulated just like cars are.
Yes, and to compare apples to apples how about all the other causes of death that occurred over the same time period? Let's face it the news is not about facts but about sensationalism. To prepare an article like this without regard to all the other factors is disingenuous and the worst kind of yellow journalism. That's why people are taking your article and reporting to task.
Yes, 91 shootings and NBC zeros in on the few that were not crime, or gang or inner city related. And just in case you missed what they left out, most of the 91 were done with illegal guns. So, stop peddling your master Obama's crap. Yes I do think guns need to be regulated. They should not be given to the mentally ill, or liberals and criminals who use a gun should get life, no questions asked and if the crime is murder, automatic death penalty no whining about thier "tough life."
mikilkit - I really hope you're kidding.
You have to be kidding.
Automobile deaths are down due to federally mandated safety standards such as seat belts, air bags, crashworthiness....
..not because their use is regulated, like many here would like to see happen with guns even more so than they are now.
Apples to oranges, pete.
Has anyone looked at the political map and compared it the gun violence map. The sad thing is that almost all gun deaths were in liberal voting area's. So here is a idea, let the liberals take away our constitutional rights in the liberal voting area's and leave the rest of the country alone. For in case you have not noticed outside of a couple of suicides there is very little homicide or gun violence.
Most of the deaths from firearms in the U.S. that show on the statistics are from the criminal element. I would think Mexico, where it is illegal to own any type of firearm would be the safest place on Earth...I won't even go there on vacation anymore because of their gun violence.
How can the President be so concerned for children when he supports Abortion/Partial Birth ? We have a Genioside of future generations happening at 1.2 mil a year.
The death of a 16 yr old American Murdered by a drone because his father a self renounced American was" Allegedly" involved in terrorism,This same President who frowns Waterboarding,believes he can by-pass the Constitution and be judge and jury.
This is the news we need to be hearing about,not a propaganda piece.
miklkit wrote: "Cars are well regulated. In the 1960s we were killing 54,000 Americans a year with our cars. That is down to around 34,000 a year now in spite of there being many more cars on the road than before."
And 20-30 years ago there were close to 20,000 gun homicides every year and that has dropped to under 10,000 per year even though the number of guns and gun owners has risen dramatically in the same time.
So what is your point other than you are another sheep who is being led by the media to believe that gun violence is escalating instead of being brought more under control.
How about we track how many, death by heart failure, in a map half that size ?
You can go after our freedom to add salt to fries, and the fries to boot.
I'm glad NBC didn't leave out the self defense shootings! In more than one of those it saved more than one life as a matter of fact we will never know how many lives where saved by eliminating the threats. It shows if more people had been armed they could have possible saved not only their life but countless others. The chance of you being stopped in your tracks is slim, take the time to kill the one that killed you if you can, it might save others (the rogue police officer in California for instance). Kill him before he kills more!
Suicide-If someone wants to end their life taking guns away from them will not stop them. Even in the case of the family in the article, if the child had wanted to kill his entire family so bad he wouldn't have needed a gun that has been proven over and over.
Gang violence is another that doesn't always involve a gun I've heard of people beating other gang members to death. This story just makes me want to go get my CCW permit today if I didn't already have it.
These stories do nothing but make people feel as though guns are going to be banned next week so get your gun before it's too late. That is also what I have been told by the local gun shops in my town. The funny thing is I never see people that look like they shouldn't have a gun or would use a gun for the wrong reason in the gun shops and the owner of one I know personally tells me he falsifies the gun ownership check so doesn't sell to people he thinks look suspect. He also has his own 10 question test that would stump even the best of us. He is doing his part to keep guns out of the hands of criminals even if the criminals are just days or weeks away from being criminals. He says he has the right and it is posted on his wall to not sell to anyone for any reason or no reason.
From the article: "We didn't trace the race or ethnicity of victims or shooters for this project"
Why not? It would be very enlightening to know this information, MSNBC.
The usual suspects WANT to think gun violence is only an urban problem because they can then chalk it up to "gang violence" and "urban thuggery" and sweep it under the rug and forget about it. Thank you for this article Bill.
One of these days people are going to get fed up with our sons and daughters, sisters and brothers, mothers and fathers, and neighbors and friends, getting gunned down every day and we'll actually DO something about gun violence in this country. Common sense things like universal background checks, cracking down on gun-running and straw purchasing, gun registration (at the State level would cause less suspicion amongst the conspiracy theorists, although I doubt anything will assuage them), and possibly even magazine capacity limits (the assault weapons ban won't happen, it's politically nonviable because too many politicians are captured by the gun lobby). Until then, expect articles like this to continue ad infinitum...
If/when that day ever comes, oh the gnashing of teeth and wailing from the NRA types will be loud and furious, but they'll rightfully be ignored. They're eroding what little credibility they had with the public with their sheer craziness in this debate, and people will soon be ignoring them.
The 2nd amendment is great, the Constitution is wonderful, but the fact of the matter is that guns kill and it's well within the governments right to put restrictions on them as part of them being "well regulated" as the Constitution demands...
So many deaths, and not one in new York city according to the map above. maybe because this area has the toughest gun control laws in America? ya think. Crime goes down in the Liberal New York, while middle America shoots it's way to fame.
Americans would love to believe that the problem is GUNS - but the truth is much uglier than that - it is PEOPLE who are the problem. We glorify violence everywhere - from the topmost levels of government (we spend more on defense than the rest of the world combined, we started more wars and military interventions in the last 50 years than any other country) to our popular culture with the most violent movies and games ever created, to the violent rap songs in our inner city subculture.
91 gun deaths in one weekend, with a population of over 300 million people that is an extremely small percentage .00003%
And so it begins. The manipulation of the population to advance an agenda with roots deeper than cancer. We have millions of Americans fed tragic stories in order to ramp up fear and feelings of general insecurity. Keep your eyes wide open and your mind thinking clearly. Learn to question the "why" behing the "object lesson" you are being fed. Your best defense is a working intellect.
I don't trust any organization who carries the water for any political party or political agenda. The constitution is very clear and any attempt to change it without an amendment is what it is and it isn't good for free people.
I just love the inbred stupidity of Democrats.
Ok...Obama says that HE killed bin Laden....Nothing could be further from the truth. Obama hid like every other coward (Democrat) so that REAL Americans could do the job that he can't do because he's such a pu$$y. It was SEAL Team Six that went in and did the job.
GUNS kill people....
Ok...take that argument....A gun is an inanimate object. It isn't alive. It doesn't move autonimously. That being said....The guns on the helicopter jumped off by themselves, ran across a compound, up stairs, around corners, and shot bin Laden all by themselves.
GUNS kill people, remember? Limiting what gun you can have or the amount of ammo you can have was NOT part of the 2nd Amendment for a reason. The government should fear the people, not the other way around. If the people fear the government, then you create another Nazi Germany...with Obama and his Muslim Brotherhood on top. The 2nd Amendment defends the 1st.
If you say that the 2nd Amendment only covered muskets and not today's high-powered rifles, then I will tell you that the 1st Amendment only covered shouting across the room and things written with a damn turkey feather, not things on the internet or typed. Noting those examples, as usual, the Democrats don't have a leg to stand on, so they drag you down to their level of filth.
Democrats are being pushed by their Nazi-in-Chief to become Muslims. It takes REAL Americans to stand up to them. A federal court has indicted Obama and started the impeachment process because they have way too many examples of proof that Obama keeps breaking the law and flouting the Constitution. This court is also calling for the impeachment and prosecution of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi because they could have stopped it, but they didn't because they were pushing Party politics. I'm looking forward to the meltdown and sincerely hope that the courts will also deem the Democratic Party a domestic threat.
It's time to stand with the Constitution. Many of us took an oath to defend it, NOT Obama. Choose your sides now, because it's all coming to a head soon....I've been on the battlefield way too much and I have studied war and its causes way too much. I see it coming as clearly as I can see this keyboard.
I'd like to see a relation to gun violence/accidence attributed to fire arms incorrectly stored. Why was that kid waiting for his dad playing with the fathers AR....If it's your responsibility you should have that stuff locked up tight, unloaded etc etc.
Bill, I find it hard to believe that there were not any gun related deaths in Chicago over a 3 day period.
It needs to be said over and over.
Gun safety is the responsibility of the gun owner.
If you do not use trigger locks or a weapons safe, you are not being a responsible weapon owner.
The debate can go on and on about weapons and gun violence. The fact remains that what this will come down to, if people don't start taking this seriously, is that you can and may be held liable for a weapon that was in your passion legally that made it's way into the hands of someone that misused it or used it illegally (note that in some states it is not required by law to report a gun theft or loss & there is no national data base for those weapons). I'm sure that if this comes to a stalemate, with gun laws, that an army of liability lawyers are going to be waiting in the wings to jump at the chance to sue anyone connected with the illegal use.
Gangs don't get guns from them falling from the sky. They are mostly stolen from homes, sold on the streets or traded for drugs. Don't let your fire arm end up in the hands of criminals.
Weapon ownership is not only a right, it is a responsibility. Do not take either for granted.
Bill Dedman, #6.1- What an astoundingly EXCELLENT! Journalistic perspective and Article. Nice to see your presence post-Article, in the comments section, too. Really leads One to believe that you absolutely stand behind your perspective and what you've written; along with an obvious willingness to be open to discussion of what you're presenting. ("Ded"man, really? Is that a subliminally creative "Pen"-name especially for this "piece"? :)
And while I've got you here, I just want to quickly say to you, that it is very dismaying (almost to the point of being appalling) to be really and truly complimenting you on Journalistic "Integrity" to your Article, while finding you here at #6.1, after the first 5 COLLAPSED THREADS!) Your doing?...I'm sure, by no means, not; as it is the Craetors and Operators of this site that are clearly in the wrong, by design, in not only allowing it to happen but also by wrongly and wronfully "empowering" Others to arbitrarily do it for them, while making it look like something else.
Again, Excellent! Article of great and needed perspective; but "excellence", in my book anyway, is never to be constued to mean "perfection"; and, as a matter of fact, I don't believe that there is anything such thing as "Perfection", but only ""Excellence", to strive for. (Takes a lot of pressure off, too!)
That said,(and typos, if any), I think you've undone the excellence of your Article, a bit, if not a lot, by the supposition to Mental Health, as factor, being predestined to not be able to play into being a significant part, as just that very factor, itself! 1) What proposed Mental Health efforts of the President are you speaking of? 2)Myself, anyway, I've not heard or read any one single line-item, or otherwise, of ANY overall, even generalized, proposal regarding Mental Health initiatives and 3) Looking at 12 out of 95, as regards murder-suicide, is in no way appropriately indicative to support the suppositions of 1 and 2; and actually seem to be the point where such inappropriate "skewing" begins to takes to place, pretty much as a "guarantee" that the subject of Mental Illness won't even be properly approached, never mind mitigated and/or ameliorated, even to the subject of violence, as a whole.
Again, again- EXCELLENT! piece, though. I'm now going to go back and see what Others have had to say under the 5 COLLAPSED THREADS before this one!
Bill Dedmon....
Surely you can see that the timing of this article is inflammatory on its face and that the data doesn't reflect what the original crisis at Sandy Hook presented. Accidental deaths and suicides are going to happen...I will wager if you compare the total number of accidental deaths and suicides with those that are gun related you would get striking clarity of what is actually true.
Regardless, NBC's mounting themselves on the soapbox of media's hate for all things conservative (read; gun rights) is dissappointing considering that there would be a social apocalypse before the Second Amendment would be repealed. Much like Roe v Wade could not be overturned by a conservative president (Bush 1 and 2, Reagan) neither will any real, substantive change in gun laws take place during a liberal presidents stay (Carter, Clinton, Obama).
As a fellow journalist, I wonder if true conservatism can be represented in the media without being marginalized. Fox News is a poor example and their brand of conservatism is milquetoast at best.
Hey all you dopes out there that try to say hey NYC didn't have any gun deaths during that period. Not tough gun laws, it was the weather, cold and snowing, keeps the peeps indoors. During the Stinkmans administration around 1990, over 2000 were killed in NYC. OH and the tough gun law, Sullivan Act if you didn't know, on the books since 1911.
All member of the NRA. Relatives of Ted Nugent, David Keene and the biggest idiot Wayne LaPierre.
Sure give them more guns, let them have automatic weapons. When is the violence going to stop. Not with idiots in congress just looking for money to run for congress. Guess what we will throw all of you butts out. So keep we know who you are.
No one says take guns from hunters. The NTA is trying to scare people. Unfortunately uneducated fools lie Ted Nugent and David Keene make stupid comments.
And where is the map that shows those who have died in storms and/or lightning strikes? How about those who died in car accidents. How about those that died of knife stab wounds? How about those that died from poisoning? How about those that died from sporting hobbies (hangliding, archery, parachuting, etc.).
I have no problem debating a topic and those that might be for or against a particular hobby like gun target shooting/etc. but at least be unbiased in the way NBC News presents the material.
Oh, I'm sorry, I made the mistake of using the word "unbiased' and NBC News in the same sentence. I don't think that is possible - is it?
Scince the media is so hype on doing away with the 2nd ammendment, I think that there should be strict regulation on what can or cannot be reported, I think if one ammendment can be controlled and regulated why not freedom of speach o wait i forgot it is think it is called politcal correctness.
So, one person bent on suicide used a gun, and that means there is a gun problem in America? A parent doesn't pay attention to her children and leaves them in a dangerous situation, and that means there is a gun problem in America? And then a trained police officer goes crazy and kills people, so that means there is a gun problem in America?
It seems like all of these situations are either based on personal craziness or on complete and utter negligence by a guardian.
yellow journalism anyone?
I am an independent and have voted for the President twice and I have guns. Yes the NRA is an extremist organization, somewhat like the ACLU or all of the anti-gun organizations. The Democrats will eventually mess themselves up by letting the extremists in their party take over. A recent example is the Tea Party/Klan and Christian Taliban taking over the Republican Party and they being unable to win a national election, in spite of record high unemployment. Remember it was Clinton that won a national election after twice losing.
@ jp, post #6.27:
Ladies and Gentlemen, the mindset of the most ardent pro-gun voices out there today.
Utter hyperbole, namecalling, slander and lies, and downright sheer craziness. Also, the perfect example of what I was talking about when I posted:
jp120741 - your comment #6.27
I can't say that I disagree with EVERYTHING you said, as I can certainly see your points.
The problem is what you started spouting about Obama being indicted by a federal court. Really? I would have thought someone with such a "rational" thought process as you seemed to portray (up until that comment) would have known better than to trust Lyndon Larouche as your source.
In all reality, Obama has been indicted - by a citizen's grand jury. This does NOT mean a federal court!!! lol
In fact, a sitting president cannot be indicted by a federal court, as per the Department of Justice's rulings in 1973 and confirmed in 2000.
Thank you for reminding me that just because someone "sounds" like they know what they are talking about, it does not mean I should believe what they say. Sometimes it just takes a little longer for the crazy in some people to show. :)
Fact: Gun Free ENGLAND has a higher per capita murder rate than the US.
and here's another fact: if the founders of this country were unarmed we'd all be speaking with a British accent
uh, that's actually not true at all, our rate is 4 times higher than theirs (per capita)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Perhaps it was an exercise to illustrate that killings are occurring all over the country, with a variety of weapons, variety of motives, variety of races, ages and relationships. In other words, it cannot be pin-pointed to a small group of "mentally ill" people, as it has been suggested in other posts in similar articles and that this behavior goes on and on. It may give one a moment of pause and step back, realizing that based on this data, the problem is much larger than anyone really knew. Solutions cannot be a one size fits all and the problem will never be totally brought under control.
I didnt see it broken down to the nth level in the article but I would be interested in seeing further demographics not just "race" based but everything to try and see what is going on.
It should be broken down into race of criminal and victim, economic status or criminal and victim, economic status of the place the crime was committed, kind of weapon used, how the weapon was obtained, motive of crime (random or a reason for it like revenge).
Only then will we begin seeing a real picture of what is going on.
@wilsonarden111
You don't get it, do you? We don't want whatever your selling - get the f*ck outta here!
Gun Violence today has nothing to do with the following
Stats from years past
Cars
Other countries
Natural disasters
Gangs Vs. Other deaths
Movies, Music, Video Games
Get real people these are all attempts to divert attention and get to the heart of the matter today.
I see the map as a slice of what is happening on daily bases. We need to have a reasonable discussion on ways to keep weapons out of the hands of those that would use them to kill others or use them for illegal purposes.
While we may not be able to prevent all, we can do something to curb the violence. Let's try and focus on solutions. If we can't as the general public, then how the hell do you think DC will be able to tackle the issue.
There's Lies. Damned Lies. And Then There's Statistics!
And the statistics here in America are pretty damning!
But for a nation of approximately 313 million people, 91 dead in a weekend
is about as good as you're gonna get for a culture that ADORES its gun-play!
Television, Movies, and even the names of music groups all highlight America's
predisposition towards a violent culture and overt worship of cold hard steel and brass.
It's not the guns! It's the PEOPLE who worship their guns who are the problem.
Add in the mentally unstable (i.e. long-term or transient emotional instability) and
you've got an instant recipe for social dynamite just waiting to go off at anytime.
Ironically, the USA is the ONLY recently birthed country (i.e. within the last 500 years)
where a VIOLENT revolution has NOT resulted in long-term dictatorship or perpetual civil war.
It is this historically American viewpoint that guns in peoples hands keeps its
government AFRAID and HONEST which will have this byproduct of mild social
disorder due to societal gun-play. This is something that America will have to
accept as a long-term consequence of its political origins...OR...the MAJORITY
of its population will have to become completely pacifist in order for the carnage
to stop.
On a personal level, I believe that it is a STRONG, AGGRESSIVE population
which is what keeps AMERICA FREE! And that means KEEPING the 2nd Amendment
(i.e. The RIGHT to Bear Arms) as is! ONLY ONE GENERATION separates America
from the next Hitler or Stalin. It took the German and Soviet Media and government
introduced social pacificism only ONE GENERATION to turn a FREE PEOPLE
into an ENSLAVED NATION...and to this I SAY NEVER AGAIN!!!!
The price of FREEDOM is NOT ONLY Eternal Vigilance...it also means
that BLOOD will be spilled sometime...somewhere...if not daily!
Looking at this another way, over 50,000 people DIE EVERY YEAR in
auto accidents ALONE...YET we do not cry in alarm to have vehicles
BANNED from service...AND YET here we cry...wishing to GIVE UP
the very tool that keeps the American individual FREE from Tyranny
within and FREE from Tyranny outside its borders.
DO NOT GIVE UP THE VERY TOOL THAT HAS GIVEN YOU LIBERTY FOR SO LONG!
---
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time
with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ... God forbid
we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion;
what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers
are not warned from time to time that their people
preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787
---
TRUST ME ON THIS!!! The Greed and Power Lust of those IN Power
or those who DESIRE power and money will KNOW NO BOUNDS unless
met with FIERCE RESISTANCE! I say to you that a WEAK, UNARMED populace
is NO MATCH against a ruthless elite. History from 5000 YEARS AGO has taught
us well that even those with the BEST INTENTIONS eventually ALLOW the political
rot to set in which gives rise to dictatorship or a totalitarian state.
READ YOUR HISTORY BOOKS! It's there for all to see what happens
whenever we give up a little liberty for fleeting security!
Henry A. Eckstein
Your attitude is exactly why I posted what I did.
Guns are all over the middle east....and look at what is happening over there. Your argument makes no sense. So again, other countries compared to ours does nothing but divert the debate.
I also find your assertion that we need a little blood shed in order to keep our freedom absurd, and out of context in today's society.
Your tirade is on the side of paranoia, if our government wanted to take us they have the means to do so now and have had that for a very long time.
Try another approach....One based in reality.
For the second week in a row, there were NO deaths of American soldiers in Afghanistan.
Too bad we can't say the same for deaths by gun violence within our own borders.
Benjamin Franklin.
I hope all you gun hugging killers feel a little more secure, because the nation gave up a lot of liberty for you to be able to hold onto your little bit of metal.
I have noticed some posters crowing about how no gun deaths in New York City over the weekend...just wondering is the fact that weather precluded people being out and about a factor?
My approach IS rounded in reality. One that is UNIQUE to America!
The Middle East AND Europe have ALWAYS been a bloody war-zone
up until the 1850's when the Age of Enlightenment (i.e. scientific reasoning)
became common-place in their upper-crust power structures. Before then
Europe AND the Middle East were mostly run by localized tyrants (Prussians,
Ottomans, etc) who were constantly INFIGHTING and lording over a mostly
agrarian and UNARMED populace.
AMERICA WAS DIFFERENT...It was already an industrial power from the get go!
Because the British (and minorly the French) colonial powers STARTED The Colonies
as an industrial supply detail for the home countries, the local populace WAS not only
HARD-CORE entrepreneurial...they were ALSO HEAVILY ARMED to deal with the local
wild-life and natives and when you get ARMED and INDEPENDENT people together,
they DON'T LIKE being TOLD WHAT TO DO...ESPECIALLY when having to take orders
from and remitting taxes TO some distant king.
Since British rule was consistently HARSH no matter what part of the world you were in
(Hangings and General Executions being quite common), the people FINALLY got fed up!
And AMERICA BEING ARMED finally dumped the Brits back into Boston Harbor and told
em where to go. AMERICA IS THE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE...It took the AMERICAN
REVOLUTION with ITS beacon of hope for the common man shining brightly to the
rest of the world, to bring about the FRENCH REVOLUTION which TOPPLED the cruel
and harsh aristocrats of France and other parts of Europe!
The AMERICAN PEOPLE are NOT OUT OF CONTROL!!!
We are only KEEPING what is rightfully OURS!
LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT of Happiness!
And if that means that SOME must die so that the REST may live FREE! Then SO BE IT!
The NEEDS of the MANY...OUTWEIGH the NEEDS OF THE FEW!
80 million+ GUNS AND ENOUGH PEOPLE WILLING TO USE THEM
GUARANTEES that our government won't be taking away our liberties
anytime soon in the future....BUT...I also believe it's now only a generation
away where pacifist upbringing and MILD AND MEEK weaklings will bring
about an America STEEPED in Tyranny and Totalarianism!
My parents grew UP in a WAR! They Grew UP with TYRANNY!
I guarantee YOU that they DESIRE TO DIE FREE than give up ANY Liberty! PERIOD!
I WILL MAKE SURE IN ALL MY HEART AND WITH FIERCE DETERMINATION
that my Fellow AMERICAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS WILL NOT SEE A SINGLE
DAY OF RULE BY TYRANTS...., which WE are JUST BEGINNING to see a small spattering of
come out from their hiding places at the LOCAL LEVEL and the state levels
of our governments.
The people are NOT subservient to the Government!
It is the government that is SUBSERVIENT TO THE PEOPLE!
Newsflash. The "Tool" that has given us liberty for so long is the BALLOT BOX.
I hate how often this quote is misused by the ardent pro-gun crowd to vigorously affirm their right to arms and to overthrow a government they suspect of "tyranny."
He also said (in the same letter) of Shay's Rebellion (emphasis is mine):
and later (again, emphasis mine):
He's basically calling the leaders of Shay's rebellion "ignorant tyrants" and the US government, which raised a standing army to "pacify" them and put them down, "patriots." (Link to the full letter: http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/presidents/thomas-jefferson/letters-of-thomas-jefferson/jefl64.php)
To some extent, the misinterpreted meaning oft used by the Tea Party types ALSO has some merit, and I bet TJ would somewhat agree with that interpretation, but let's not pretend that TJ's "Tree of Liberty" quote is a founding father espousing on your god-given right for armed rebellion if a government tries to give you better access to healthcare, raise taxes on the top 1% of wage earners, or force you to go through a background check to buy an assault rifle...
Mom2five,
Do everyone a favor: DON'T have any more children!!! You are not qualified.
Now, what if one of those 91 that were killed was one of YOUR children? One death by firearms or any other method is too many.
This country is going downhill folks. The moral character is in decline as the country has gone from hard working, independent individuals that desired to stay off of government assistance, to a country where a much higher majority don't want to work, but live off welfare and just crank out babies out of wedlock. And it's Democrats that created this culture of dependence on government which they keep rewarding with additional government benefits do they can get re-elected. It's a vicious cycle. This crap must stop, NOW!
Some of the comments on here about gun free England having a higher murder rate are ridiculous! It took me 30 seconds to research that fact and we are at least 4 times higher! Why do people compare us to other countries and then lie????
I read an article a couple of years ago that stated there are more murders in NYC in ONE WEEKEND than there are in China in a WHOLE YEAR! and I can believe that! Yet this article does not list gunshot murders in NYC?? Odd.
In my State the first 15 minutes of any news broadcast is always about the gunshot murders, it's depressing. Only last week I counted 11 murders by gunshots in 1 weekend. Sad.
Hey, remember, guns don't kill (sarcasm).
Henry Eckstein -what a sad post. YOU and others like you are the problem!
alan3008 -yours is an ignorant post. Democrats DID NOT create this problem. Those who are ignorant and believe as you do created the problem.
The vast majority of people want to work and stand in long lines to get jobs. And, many work 2 jobs in order to keep a roof over their heads. Only totally ignorant Republicans believe the lies you posted. Get a clue!
I should point out that while the GOVERNMENT IS SUBSERVIENT to the PEOPLE,
it doesn't mean the people are SMART...OR RIGHT! ...It just means that in this country
MAJORITY RULES! NOT A POWER ELITE who wish to STUFF their wishes down our
collective (if ignorant) throats.
The road to perdition is always paved with good intentions!
It's that SMALL step down the road of good intentions that has
HISTORICALLY ALWAYS ended up in either dictatorial political
or theocratic Tyranny.
So let this CANADIAN give these VERY PRESCIENT WARNINGS
to our AMERICAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS made by your fellow
countrymen from so long ago:
"To maintain the ascendancy of the Constitution over the lawmaking majority is the great and essential point on which the success of the [American] system must depend; unless that ascendancy can be preserved, the necessary consequence must be that the laws will supersede the Constitution; and, finally, the will of the Executive, by influence of its patronage, will supersede the laws ..." -- John C. Calhoun
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." – Benjamin Franklin
"A wise and frugal government which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government." – Thomas Jefferson
"Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." – Thomas Paine
"God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it." – Daniel Webster
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government – lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." – Patrick Henry
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." – Thomas Jefferson
AND FINALLY:
"Experience [has] shown that, even under the best forms [of government], those entrusted with power have, in time and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." – Thomas Jefferson
---
TELL ME WHY THAT A CANADIAN HAS TO EXPLAIN TO YOU AMERICANS THAT
IF YOU SOW THE SEEDS OF A BIG INTRUSIVE GOVERNMENT, THAT YOU
SHALL SOW THE SEEDS OF AN EVENTUAL (IF SLOW COMING) GREAT
OPPRESSION AND TYRANNY.
LIVE YOUR OWN LIVES...YOU DON'T NEED, NOR SHOULD WANT!,
SOME BUREAUCRAT STICKING THEIR NOSES IN YOUR PERSONAL BUSINESS!
IT IS YOUR PERSONAL DUTY to right a wrong and to help your fellow man (or woman!)...
Not the Local gentry, nor the distant agent...YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE for yourself AND
your fellow man! Once you give up that responsibility (AND THAT LIBERTY) then stop
whining if you don't like the bread & crumbs they hand out you...you've then made yourself
into a slave and the ONLY THING WORSE than being a slave captured through conquest....
IS BEING A SLAVE THAT WILLINGLY SOLD HIM OR HERSELF INTO BONDAGE!
Clearly, we don't have a gun problem in this country.
And where is the map showing automobile deaths this weekend? Deaths caused by hospital error, storms, slipping in the shower..... how about deaths caused while watching the Grammies?
If we can save even one life....... the ends do no justify the means... EXCEPT to the liberal
To Nigol66^ :
America is also a nation of 313 million people, so on a STATISTICAL BASIS,
we ain't doing to bad with the murder rate as a percentage of population
or in incidents per 100,000. There's more than a few Eastern European
countries doing a whole lot worse statistics-wise than the USA.
--
And for others who see ME as the problem...I'm a God-Given LIBERAL!
who likes Medicare for all (PROPERLY AND PRUDENTLY FUNDED THOUGH!),
Statutory Holidays, and the right of association (i.e. UNIONS!) in addition
to SAFE FOOD AND WATER (i.e. FDA) and a safe Environment (i.e. the EPA)!
What I DON'T LIKE is LIBERALISM perverting into COMMUNISM which desires
TRUE collectivism WITH CONTROL give only to the top POWER-ELITE.
So I can PROUDLY say I'm Anti-Communist, Anti-BIG Government and
ANTI-irresponsible and what's going on, NOT ONLY IN WASHINGTON,
but on the STREETS of Main Street USA, is an encroaching acquiescence
to government paternalism and the ever-greater mentality to REMAIN
living in Mom's Basement under her WATCHFUL (if not STIFLING eye!)
rather than going out in the greater world and LIVING YOUR OWN LIFE!
Grow some Cajones! America!
It's NOT the Job of the Government to rock your cradle
and wipe your bum...THAT'S YOUR JOB!
"When the government fears the people, it is liberty. When the people fear the government, it is tyranny." – Thomas Paine
"The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases." – Thomas Jefferson
alan3008,
You need a lesson in manners. All I stated was that it was an extremely small percentage based on the population of our country. How do you know my qualifications on being a parent? Do you have children? If you do I pray that you are not raising them to be as rude and ignorant as yourself. You have a pleasant evening. I will be leaving work, making dinner and driving my kids to their various sports practices. I will continue being a mom raising intelligent, well rounded, non-judgemental, polite children and my choice not to have another is mine to make. Alan3008; since you have no involvement in raising them financially or otherwise you can mind your own affairs.
BTW, I am republican and my children will decide their political views as they mature and age. I am not on welfare, I work full-time. It was my ex-husbands (yes two of them) that were the lazy "I don't wanna work bums." So other then the standard visitation I am raising my children on my own. My straight A's, athletically gifted, polite, beautiful children.
I was raised in a house with guns. Guns that were kept locked in a gun safe and not in the reach of children. I choose not to have guns in my house, but that is my choice. My parents, aunts, uncles and grandparents are entitled to their choices as well. FREEDOM is what this country was founded on... I choose not to live a high risk life style, I choose not to associate with high risk people, I choose not to live in a high risk neighborhood, I am lucky that I have these choices, other are not as fortunate.
Steve-3564331, #6.31- EXCELLENT! post. I think you really nailed a lot!
Simply amazing that two police officers shoot two women in the back and the media puts this article here to enlighten people on gun deaths..nothing more than a diversion by the media to cover up the cops shooting 2 unarmed paper carriers. In the back I might add
Ah, OK, whatever? Really NBC! Where have you been all these years? The US death map looks like that all the time! Once again, you are obviously having some slow days over there! Perhaps it's time to let some folks go! Go find a real story to report on!
I am surprised at how few deaths were reported given there are about 300 Million people here. most of them are Gang Related. Big Whup!! Let's call those "Good to Go!" The Police should do a better job rather than hassling honest American Patriots. Now, the rest might be tragic except that most of them are idiots trying to prove who the bigger man is. let's call those "Serves you right" and I suppose we are better off without them as well. The Murder-Suicides?? Well some people should pay more attention to the company they keep. Let's call them tragic but understandable. After all, it was President Reagan who ended the significant mental health care in America with his signing of the Lanterman-Petris-Short act. The rest are statistically irrelevant.
I see where so many of the gun-nuts compare DC with Virginia 9n the gun regulation. Where does the residents of DC get their guns they only drive a couple of miles to Virginia and buy as many as they want and take them back to DC to sell.
If you want to see unbias country comparison type in" Gun Facts,Figures and Laws "and you can compare any country to any other country for the unbias comparison. I looked at Switzerland and they have gun rights also but have strick regulation with very, very few murders of any kind, very few suicides with guns and same with gun accidents.
LaPiere is actually against the second admendment for it calls for "well regulated militia' and LaPierre's against ALL gun regulation
Nice try. By the time Nehemiah Griego was waiting for his father to come home, he had already shot and killed his mother, brother and two sisters with a .22-caliber rifle. It wasn't until after killing most of his family, that he retrieved his father's AR-15 and waited for him to come home. The narrative above makes it sound like Nehemiah blew away his whole family with an AR-15, but that's simply not true. The only person he killed with his father's AR-15 was his father.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/21/16628682-new-mexico-teen-accused-of-killing-family-wanted-to-kill-more-police-say?lite
Makes me wonder how many other inaccuracies and half truths appear in this article.
I had to stop and think about the "holiday weekend" part. I didn't get a long weekend, invite the family and friends over, decorate the house or celebrate anything. Holiday weekend my a$$!
Scott,
The liberal media spins everything to say what they want it to say to get people to believe what they want. Democrats have owned the media since the 1960s and they show no signs of stopping until Americans say "ENOUGH" and remove the Democrats from government entirely. That will only happen by force, and I'm all for it.
Scott,
"We drew our list from the deaths that were reported in the press, and confirmed the details with authorities in all but a few cases"
Well there you have it. Rather than confirming with at least 2 credible sources, as is the SOP, reporting what they read from other press outlets and not checking out all of them, it's OK to simply cut and paste and call it true. If there's anyone out there that reads this junk and believes it to be true, they're just plain old dumb.
JP - what do you call Fox News?
Deaths by firearm per 100,000:
USA: 10.2 - where anyone can easily get a gun and go out and shoot someone dead.
Canada: 4.78 - where, at least they are smart enough to outlaw easily concealable hand guns.
Japan: .07 - where they ban ALL TYPES of firearms and seem to have a kinder culture than ours. Yep that is not one, but .07 people per 100,000 people, Or put in another way, it would be one person in 1,428,571 people. Japan is obviously doing something right, and Canada, whose culture is more similar to ours is much better on this statistic.
We need to look at these things and change something.
Is it any surprise that the media is jumping on Obama's gun control side? Obama has been their media darling, who can do no wrong, for years.
I notice that the media hasn't said a word about the federal indictment unsealed against Obama during the last week of January. The courts are preparing to impeach him since Congress will not do it.
Yes, but we know why and the fact of the media's silence on important issues related to Mr. Obama comes as no surprise to those of us who have understood for some time that the media is as "left" as it can get while still attempting to portray itself as "unbiased."
I know. Isn't it amazing that the real media just simply treat Lyndon LaRouche as a credible source.
Absolutely amazing.
Also, they don't believe in Citizens Grand Juries indicting people: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/indicted.asp
Not a fan of the leftist media, but there was no such federal indictment for them to report (or ignore). You might want to check out the source of your claim, because it seems you've been duped.
How terribly sad of all these lives that are lost. To the scared folks who believe the spin from FAUX news, no one is trying to take your rights away, but if you all don't realize that too many people are dying mostly young people, and something needs to be done, you are a bunch of fools!
@phillynona
Last week 5 students died from a drug overdose in a local high school. All in the same day. None were shot. So is this administration really focusing on the biggest threats, or just the most popular one...
@phillynona, I find it funny that people disagree with things on any msn article and they are called names and made fun of and written off as only watching faux news as it is often put. Explain to me why these faux news only people are reading msn editorials...?
92% of Americans want gun control. Do you want to take away our 1st amendment rights rights in exchange for no gun regulations?
I am 110% for Feinstien's gun control bill.
How would no gun regulations remove the 1st amendment?
I don't think 92% of Americans want gun control. I think 92% of Americans are sick to death of HEARING about gun control! Doh-bama is doing the same crap Clinton did by trying to shove it down people's throats and are beating it to death! How about getting back to doing the job he was elected for and start running the country and reducing the debt,creating more jobs,getting the hell out of our medical records,take congress's damn raise back,and do what the hell he's supposed to be doing! Disarming the country is not a good idea at this time. China recommends gun control here,so do all of the terrorists. Every damn country in the world that hates the U.S. recommends it so let's be stupid and go along with it. Fargon Iceholes!
And if you believe that, then you have either ignored the actual activities and proposed legislation of leftist officials around the country and in the capitol, or else you simply haven't been paying enough attention. Try searching for "proposed gun confiscation" and you'll see some recent examples in the top results.
If you think that this ISN'T about controlling the people and violating their 2nd Amendment rights, then YOU are the fool.
That data is somewhat skewed. You can't use a lone suicide or self-defense in examples of death a gun caused. If someone is really bent on killing themselves not having a gun won't stop them and self-defense is an example of proper use of a gun to defend your self or a family member. So although for the sake of accuracy they should be noted, please leave them out of the overall argument. All the others on that chart are valid. What I would like to know is how many of those gun deaths were caused by a registered firearm and how many were caused by a gun bought on the black market?
GBR, one point about suicide might be taken account in your description. Have you see the stats on how few suicides are successful when the means is something other than a gun?
No, but you're more than welcome to back that statement up with a link to those statistics from an independent, verified source. Also if you could answer my question at the end of my original post, that would be great.
Sure, GBR, and here you are, through the magic of Google. (I thought I'd save you the five seconds!)
From the Harvard School of Public Health
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-and-use/
The case-fatality rate for suicide attempts with guns is higher than other methods
Across the Northeast, case fatality rates ranged from over 90% for firearms to under 5% for drug overdoses, cutting and piercing (the most common methods of attempted suicide). Hospital workers rarely see the type of suicide (firearm suicide) that is most likely to end in death.
Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. The epidemiology of case fatality rates for suicide in the Northeast. Annals of Emergency Medicine. 2004; 723-30.
You asked also about ownership of these weapons, whether or not they were registered. We say very clearly in this article that we don't know.
Bill,
statistics show suicide in the home over 2011 (i think) were 379 if I remember correctly. Suicide in the home by other means combined was slightly higher. The statistics had to do with the fallacy that a gun in the home makes your family less safe.
Suicide is a whole different issue. Who cares how few are successful if not attempted with a gun, that is irrelevant. Suicide is a whole different issue and needs to be treated as such. So lets ban guns and suicides will stop?
NBC and Bill Dedman are errasing anyone who opposes his anti-american bill of rights posts! Nice going ! Americans are still waking up...so just keep being a NAZI. We can see whose side you are on and it is not the American People!
Suicide is part of the issue. Remember, the main argument from gun advocates is that law-abiding citizens don't go on killing sprees, the mentally ill do. Well let me tell you that not mentally ill individuals don't kill themselves either. Hence it is part of the discussion.
Elaine, thanks for your comment, but you're incorrect. I'm responding to (not erasing) those who post comments asking questions or disputing the statistics, providing links to the data. The only posts that get deleted are those that make personal attacks on other posters.
OK, for starters your sarcasm is not appreciated. You didn't tell your college professor when you handed him a paper to "Google" your sources and he would probably fail you if you did.
Also the argument that someone would be more successful in killing someone else or themselves with a gun seems self evident as a gun is an efficient killing machine. In fact it's main purpose is to kill. I will acquiesce to the point of it being an act of violence, however lone suicide is not a criminal act and self-defense in most cases is not considered criminal so I hold to the point that those stats should be mentioned for accuracy but not included in the overall tally.
I apologize for missing your point in your article of you not knowing whether or not the guns were registered, however don't you think that is an important point? If it is unregistered than the person carrying it is already committing an illegal act are they not? What good would more gun legislation do to someone that does follow the law to begin with?
Also I find this entire crusade by many people to ban or severely restrict guns to be entirely ignorant, not just to the history of this country but to that of mankind in general and to be philosophically inconsistent. It is in the Bill of Rights and if any other right named in the Constitution, whether it be religion, voting, remaining silent or the right to a trial by jury, were to have same or similar restrictions placed on it as many have done or attempted to do to the right to bear arms, there would be an uproar. In fact there is one going on right now over these drone strikes on U.S. citizen as terrorists in foreign lands for potentially violating the right to a trial by jury.
The point of the right to bear arms is so that the citizenry can protect itself from tyranny. The tyranny of another person or the tyranny of a government. It is not for hunting, or target shooting or other sports. It gives the citizens the ability to overthrow our government should we need to or to protect ourselves from any person wishing to do us harm.
Not that I'm claiming that you are making this argument but I fail to see how in one instance someone can support the right of a woman to choose, which is making it easier for a person to be killed, but in the next can say we should ban guns because to many people die from them. Or that it is OK to invade another country and kill hundreds of thousands of their populace in the process, occupy them for years but if some people die in our country we must ban the tool that caused it. It is all the same. Killing is killing, whether it is done by a doctor in a clinic, a soldier in the field, a terrorist in a plane or a gang banger in the street. It is not justified. However, taking away a persons rights and choices because of fear, and that's what this is, is tyranny and I will not abide that. To take away the rights that my forefathers fought and died for is just as disgraceful as a twenty year old walking into a school and shooting up a bunch of unarmed teachers and students.
Mr. Bill Dedman,
First thank you for taking the time to be interactive with your readers, it’s nice to have a dialogue between the writers of the media and the populations those writers are representing.
First: As a gun owner (amateur interest in target shooting & marksmanship), I find myself always a bit disappointing by the term "Gun Violence" due to the focus of this phrase on the tool of choice, and not the lethally anti-social individual we commonly think of when we consider mass shootings or murders. For example we do not refer to deaths from drunk driving as "Alcohol Violence" or a 81 people plowing into each other in an obscured highway as "Car Violence" even though they center around the same situations as "Gun Violence" i.e. a person exhibiting extremely poor judgment and total disregard for human life while using an item (gun/car/alcohol) in a way that harms and kills others. It just seems like the use of this phrase is designed to incite hate speech and distrust amongst those who do use guns (the "99%" if you will, to re-task another popular phrase).
Second: I am also constantly perplexed as to why so much attention is given to deaths resulting from firearm use. You say in a reply below,
"But on the main point, what ideas do you have that would bring down the number of gun deaths in America?"
And I have to ask you why do you personally care about how many people die to themselves or others wielding a gun. I am not try to be insensitive to those who have lost friends/family to deranged individuals with guns, specifically I am asking a statistical question. Table 2 of the CDC's 2011 Deaths: Preliminary data, states that approximately 2,513,000 people died in 2011. Of those, if you combine all reported firearms deaths (accidental: 851, Suicide: 19,766, Homicide: 11,101), you get a total of 31,717 deaths related to firearms - or 1.26% of the total deaths. One and one quarter percent of the deaths in 2011 were related to firearm use. Yet on NBCnews' website main page I counted Five links right at the top in addition to your interactive map. I have to wonder at why such a small fraction of the cause of deaths are singled out, while such little reporting is done for the remaining 98.74% of deaths. Consider chronic lower respiratory disease which kills 5.7%, or Pneumonia which kills 2.06%, or the big killers like Cardiovascular diseases which kill 30.97% or Malignant Neoplasms (cancers) which kill 22.88%. Why not target some of these killers? No one will oppose an attack on such deadly diseases, there are no amendments to protect them, and no one’s freedoms or ways of life will be effected in a negative manner by being cancer/disease free.
Third: Some say that the only function of firearms is to kill, yet if we conservatively underestimate the number of individuals with firearms in the us as 70 million (http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/fact-sheets/2011/firearm-fact-card-2011.aspx) and conservatively overestimate the number of deranged murders (by saying each of the 31,717 deaths were the result of a firearm owner killing someone), we find that 0.0453 % (yes that's one twenty second of a percent) of firearm owners have been shown to be deranged murders (remember these numbers were conservative estimates!). Said another way, 99.954% of firearm owners did NOT kill anyone in 2011. Said a third way, non-murdering/deranged firearms owners (like myself) are the "99 percent". Please remember this whenever you make, or imply that gun's are bad or evil or tools of evil men, or that we cannot trust our neighbors because they have guns. Stereotyping of any form is counterproductive, and only hurts our society.
Fourth: A very mild physics exploration. Mr. Bill Dedman, you have another comment below which is,
"The weekend of gun violence does leave an impression that few crimes are committed with the assault weapons whose legality is being debated in Washington. We saw one Detroit homicide where a witness said the gun was an AK-47, but police won't say one way or another. And Nehemiah Griego is said to have used a .22-caliber rifle, then a .223-caliber military-style AR-15 semi-automatic rifle. Most of the killing, however, is done with handguns that are not on the political radar, one or two victims at a time, not crimes that depend on high-capacity magazines with more than 10 bullets."
There is much debate on which type of gun is "more dangerous" and while I can broadly agree that automatic weapons (which are not available to the general public), and area effect anti-personal weapons (think claymores, grenades, fragmentation explosives, which are also not available) should remain out of hands of the general public the same way military vehicles and such do, I am concerned about the confusing nomenclature of "assault weapon" again we see a phrase where an inciting word (assault is a CRIME) is used to paint an emotional picture of an item. Semi-automatic rifles with nifty features are no more or less dangerous than handguns or single shot rifles or shotguns etc... Pick any gun in the world that instills the LEAST fear in you, and search youtube videos for its use. I guarantee you will see people rapidly reloading 5 round revolvers, lining up impressive 3 target hits with 1 bullet from 500 yards with a single shot rifle, and blasting golf balls in per-determined directions with shotguns. Let me use that evidence to suggest that ANY gun, can be learned well enough to efficient at ANY use (yes including mass murder, if you are part of the 0.0453%). I will further point out that the .22 caliber round, one of, if not THE least powerful round, is perfectly capable of penetrating the skull and liquefying the brain. The energy that ANY caliber single bullet can impart on the human body, is beyond our bodies ability to absorb without fatality. This means that ANY single bullet from ANY gun can kill a person. ANY bullet, ANY gun. If the 31,717 deaths per year are really of concern, then you must ban ALL firearms. Selecting a subset of guns based on appearance, and with features that are immaterial when considering performance boosts of any gun with light practice, is a mistake in the approach to "gun control".
Conclusion: I have mentioned objective terminology vs. emotional terminology, considered the overall impact of gun related deaths on our current death rate, defended the 99.9% of non-murdering gun owners, and questioned the focus on so called “assault rifles”. While I understand you are a busy person, Mr. Bill Dedman I would very happy if you could reply to any of my points here with your views. While I have firm opinions, I am always eager to listen to the arguments of others, as my beliefs can and have been changed by respectful and informative discourse.
Thank you for your time.
Most failed suicides are "cries for help" i.e. they didn't really want to die they just wanted people to pay attention to them, that explains the much lower "success" ratio of the other methods. Rest assured if someone really wants to die they understand that taking the whole bottle of pills or jumping of a bridge will do the job first time everytime.
Suicide by gun should be included,
as temporary problems like girlfriend breaking up etc
Just in the moment feel like life is not worth living and if he did not have a gun he would
have not carried out other type of suicides.
NoLiberty,
Outstanding and rational post, when all things are put in perspective gun related deaths are minuscule, though no more or less tragic than any other death.
This intense argument that gun control is a NECESSITY reminds me of what Thomas Payne of the British House of Commons once proclaimed, " The argument of necessity is the argument for every infringement upon liberty, it is the plea of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves
Bill,
Maybe you should include the top 10 places to commit suiside, Japan Mt Fuji Golden gate Bridge ect. Should we have check points or regulations for all those spots?
Why dont we just ban murder? Then we wouldnt have to worry about banning guns tabacco alcohol cars hammers abortion etc etc etc. Our muder rate is at an all time low people this is america we dont ban our law abiding folks from owning assault weapons for target pratcice etc etc etc. Lets look at all the laws the Sandy Hook murderer broke. He was under 21 it was a gun free zone nad murder is illegal. People guess what if assault weapons were banned he still would have killed these children. We are not using common sense here going after law abiding folks is not what america stands for. We sent the Brtish back across the pond so we would be free.
Hey Bill actually Elane is correct,I've had two of my post reached here compleat lay gone not collapsed but gone,last I saw when there was only 3 pages they both had 29+ votes so who didn't like what I said??
Here are the small snipits of the two,Way To go on censorship.
Too much truth for ya I guess.
Bill @ NBC, I may be speaking for myself but All I had to see was the Title of the "report" to know what was in it,and what it was about(agenda) So It's fair to say the ones I Have read, From the mainstream Gun article's as of late,have been bias against guns. I feel it's way more concerning That we
Bill Dedman, No problem reporting crime,but the fact that the news is skewed against guns in general without showing all the people that are alive because of having a gun,Not to mention what has happened to unarmed society's in the past, I find It curious and bias,The NRA and every perfectly normal
law abiding citizens, law abiding citizens, blah blah blah. Guess what, the guy who shot those children and adults was a law abiding citizen prior to the shootings. Banning the type of weapons that have been used in these mass killings will not stop all gun murders, but why make it easier for these people to kill others in large numbers with these types of weapons. No one needs these types of weapons and it's not part of your 2nd Amendment right to have one. As for gun free zones, two people were killed at a gun range about a week ago. Having all those guns around didn't stop the killer, now did it.
Looks like Bill called in his lap dogs to join the conversation,while they collapse and hide people's comments,at least half that were here this afternoon when this first came out have vanished...typical left BS.
Ill not bother posting,Bill only wants his back patted and Im not going to,some people have to work in the morning,goodnight
GBR- "Also I find this entire crusade by many people to ban or severely restrict guns to be entirely ignorant, not just to the history of this country but to that of mankind in general and to be philosophically inconsistent. "
can you please provide a link to prove your assertion that there is some grand crusade to ban or severely restrict guns? i do not know of ANY national politician of any stripe that is even daydreaming out loud of such a thing. i have heard of nobody that proposes repealing the second amendment. while i might agree that the proposed ban of certain guns like the AR is kind of silly, my understanding is that it is mainly rhetoric, as it will never pass congress, so a moot point....ignoring the fact that tens of thousands of these are already in gun safes and closets all over the country, and i KNOW there are nobody planning on going door to door.....lol
extreme rhetoric will not advance your cause...
I'll keep poking the fact that most people unsuccessful in suicide do so intentionally, which is why they down a bottle of aspirin rather that use a firearm and that most people who really want to be successful are, regardless of method.
To thetrainables,
Hello, you wrote the following in bold, my reply in plain text, below.
"law abiding citizens, law abiding citizens, blah blah blah. Guess what, the guy who shot those children and adults was a law abiding citizen prior to the shootings. "
Yes, as I wrote in my post, of the estimated 70 million gun owners in the US, a conservative estimate suggests that 0.0453% became murderers. Are you suggesting this number is high, and if so in relation to what other activity? Further, are you suggesting that the ownership of a gun was a causal in their transformation from law-abiding citizens to crazed killers?
"Banning the type of weapons that have been used in these mass killings will not stop all gun murders, but why make it easier for these people to kill others in large numbers with these types of weapons."
Again, as per my post, firearms were involved in 1.26% of deaths in 2011. Compared to other causes, can you really call these "large numbers"?
Also, please define "these types of weapons" as we have seen mass shooters use a variety of pistols and rifles - further, don't discount other mass killings, bombers have been quite successful in the US without ever touching a gun, nor were the terrorists on September 11th armed with anything more than short knives, and look at the damage they did.
I think a common misconception is that is "difficult" to kill large numbers of people unless you have specialized equipment. Time and time again these deranged mass murderers have proved us wrong. The human body is frail, the means are infinite. Why punish so many law-abiding gun owners to get rid of a fashion statement?
"No one needs these types of weapons..."
If you do not wish to possess a firearm, that is fully your choice, as it is my choice to own one if I wish. Are you trying to force your consumer choices on other people? Where is it your right to tell me what sports to enjoy and which to quit?
"... and it's not part of your 2nd Amendment right to have one."
Where do you get this from? The Bill of Rights states the word "arms" without definition, as a nation we have already decided to keep military weapons out of civilian hands (by military I mean weapons used in war, such as fully automatic weapons, crew operated weapons, anti-material weapons, and area of effect weapons). Your claim suggests that you think a so called "assault rifle" is anything more than a fancy looking hunting/target shooting rifle.
As for gun free zones, two people were killed at a gun range about a week ago. Having all those guns around didn't stop the killer, now did it."
Gun free zones, gun ranges, schools, its almost as if people who are committed to breaking the law, have no compunction about breaking the law in the pursuit of break the law...
And you are correct about the victims at the gun range - they were not able to prevent their murders, do you know what the most powerful tool a murderer has? The element of surprise. This also goes to show you that law-abiding gun owners can also be the victim of murder. And, if you look into that story (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/family-victim-gun-range-death-defends-outing-18446720), you will find that it was a war veteran who was the shooter. What was more dangerous in that setting? A troubled man trained and exposed to the battlefield, or a inert piece of iron? Do we blame the gun, the man, the war or the country that sent him to it? I don't really know the answer, but do you claim to have the solution?
If you want to talk purely from a standpoint of restricting the commerce of a tool, where is the clear and present threat when this tool is only used in 1.26% of the yearly deaths? and when 99.9% of the operators of this tool do so responsibly?
If you want to talk purely from a standpoint of reducing murder rates, then you must ignore the tool used in the murder, for it is inanimate, and consider how do you prevent murders and murderers to-be from seeing everyone as the target of their sick fantasies? If we both agree that we cannot predict who will become the next mass murderer, then how can fortify our society against it? Does creating additional laws, on top of the law against murder, ever do enough? How many of your neighbors freedoms are you personally willing to take away to gain the illusion of 100% safety?
If you had the power, would you walk up to me (a law-abiding gun owner) in the street and take away my firearms? would you tell me to my face, that without any evidence whatsoever, you believe me to be a threat? Would you send the police, i.e. men with assault rifles, to invade the sanity of my house - when I have never harmed anyone - and take me to prison?
Would you turn in your neighbor? When he has never done anything to harm you?
Would you turn him in for pursuing a harmless sport that you dislike?
Would you?
What do you want American to stand for?
Lets look at Chicago. The gun violence is for the most part in poor neighborhoods with lousy schools and no prospects for employment a place that some might say minorities and the economically disadvantaged are segregated. The same people who have allowed this situation to fester now insist they have a plan to solve the problem. Shouldn't we question our leaders and ask why they have allowed the conditions that create the mindset of hopelessness and violence to continue rather than use this issue for political gain? For all the talk about change this argument and the policies of those who are promoting them are just more of the same perpetuated by the facilitators of the status quo, the old media. Don't be fooled they are not interested in changing anything except the amount of control the powerful have over our lives, don't trust anyone who wants to tell you how to live. The constitution protects us from the tyranny of the majority.
I think in quite a number of suicide cases involving young people there is not an ongoing, underlying mental health issue. Rather, they have had a minor or relatively minor brush with the law or some other upsetting event and a gun is handy. Some years ago, we had a local kid who, as a new driver, accidentally hit a gas pump in his very small town. He then went home and was alone when the local deputy drove to the house to question him. He was not a "troubled kid", he was an A student involved in school and community activities. He apparently shot himself when he saw the cruiser approaching. My best guess is that something similar happened with the Idaho kid. These are not kids who are bent on suicide and will use any means to accomplish it. A gun requires minimal preparation and the promise of quick, pain-free annihilation of anxiety.
Re: possession of "unregistered" guns being "illegal". What does that mean? Guns are only "registered" by manufacturers and dealers, not when a retail consumer sells the weapon to another consumer. They are not registered in a manner remotely like cars. Imagine if, in case of involvement or suspected involvement of a vehicle in a death police had to go to the auto company to find how what dealership sold the car, track down the "registered" owner, then track down subsequent owners who had purchased the car.
Bill Dedman, surely you can't be naive to the fact that a Harvard survey can't possibly be neutral on this issue. Quoting those statistics is, once again, disingenuous. Why do you feel like you have to defend your article so vehemently. This smacks of Anderson Cooper defending himself against conspiracy theorists. As a media personality, you come from a throne of empiracal authority that whether true or right effects peoples opinions. How can you say that you are part of an impartial press (which the Constitution envisioned in the First Amendment though, I am sure you will agree, hasn't really been realized) if you don't entertain other viewpoints and feel you have to defend your position? Does an impartial article need to be defended if it is truly impartial? If you aren't impartial, wouldn't it be better for the sake of this conversation to hear it outright, so we don't hear comments about how NBC must not have anything better to do.
The NRA could produce just as "factual" a study refuting every point in Harvard's. It is time for the US to not be ruled from the Ivy League and from NY City media centers. Of course, when someone challenges that paradigm, like Cincinnati's Ben Swann, they are marginalized as conspiracy theorists. Yet, no one ever does anything to assuage those views about the media.
Ster2, thanks for your note about the collapsed threads. Apparently it doesn't take many people to get other people's comments collapsed. I've reached out to our tech folks to have the comments "restored," which I guess is the same as "uncollapsed." I have a "restore" button in my browser, and I've restored those threads, at least on the first page of comments, but they never seem to come back. Have asked the tech folks about this. But, no, I had nothing to do with collapsing them--the opposite is true. Regards, Bill.
Bill,
Any comments on NoLiberty!'s very cogent replies to your postings?
Which is precisely the point that Bill Dedman sought to obscure in citing the data that he did. Instead of focusing on the number of successful suicides where firearms were used and comparing that to successful suicides where firearms were not used, he instead focused on the success RATE--which skews the data. Another person on here pointed out that for 2011, the total number of suicides WITHOUT firearms was higher than that for firearms, although I don't think they included a link to their source.
Mr. Dedman, if you are SERIOUS about committing suicide, then you generally tend to want to be successful on the first attempt, and will select a method accordingly. Use of a firearm for a suicide is a lot harder to get wrong (although it has happened) than popping pills--and also doesn't allow for someone to intervene between the act and death (firearm effect is instantaneous, pills require time to kill you). Popping pills is typically regarded as more of a plea for help (hoping to be found) than a serious attempt, so I'm really not surprised that the success rate is lower than for firearms.
The right wing lunatic fringe is under the extraordinary misperception that the Second Amendment exists purely so selfish, immature Rambo wannabes can accumulate pointless arsenals of deadly toys. The American people are not going to tolerate their children being slaughtered on the altar of the 2nd Amendment for the prurient entertainment of gun enthusiasts any longer. Gun control is gaining support rapidly among rational Americans. Now more than ever it is the right thing to do.
Actually there is not "Over whelming support" the media would want you to believe that but
it isn't so. Check how many states have either enacted laws or are in the process of doing
so and how many Sheriffs have already said they will not enforce any new laws..
Fact check me PLEASE....
There has been a large number of law enforcement officials, especially from large metropolitan areas, who have thrown their support in favor of broad ranging gun control legislation. The number of people contracting their congressmen who are requesting gun control, as well. A grass-roots effort is under way to push for rational gun control. It will happen and it cannot happen too soon for the families and friends of the victims of gun violence.
By the way, had you provided any hard facts, I would have checked them.
Sailcat...pfft...more like WINDBAG............You really should stop blabbering along with all the other panty wearers about all you know pertaining to firearms.......it only confirms your gullibility and raging uninformed stupidity.
Luckly we live in a land where it isn't just what the majority of people think, we live in a land of laws (Ask gay people how they feel about Prop 8 being struck down for a good example) Look up what the Supreme Court ruled when it came to the 2nd Amendment. They ruled that the word "militia" refered to everyone, not the national guard or anything like that. So the highest law of the land, the Constitution, says I have a right to defend myself, I am sorry if you don't like that, I am sorry if NBC or Obama doesn't like it. Even if they do pass a new ban it is very likely with that recent Supreme court ruling the law would be thrown out. That part of the dynamic has changed alot since the 1994 ban, I would encourage you to read about it.
The number of law enforcement officials from large metropolitan areas (who are apparently toeing the political line of those who appointed them for the sake of keeping their jobs, by the way) are vastly outnumbered by the number of law enforcement officials across the country who are standing up and saying "hands off the 2nd Amendment." Nice try.
Your posts indicate you neither understand nor respect the 2nd Amendment. You don't want to own a gun? That's your right. The rest of us still retain that right--and there's nothing you and your fellow statists can do about it.
Since MSNBC has gone to NBC News they are nearly rabid. I'm going to stop even reading it. The quality has gone downhill in their rush to become Fox News Left.
I've had enough.
Since Microsoft dumped NBC they have let the censors and propagandists have even more free-reign than ever.
Give up MSNBC. No semi automatic ban is going to happen. Especially with this tyrannical government. So take your propaganda and shove it.
Soarer, this article isn't pushing a semi-automatic ban at all. Take a couple of minutes to read the article, and you'll see this: "What about the proposal to take "weapons of war" — or assault-type weapons — off the streets, as Obama put it? Police are reluctant to give out details of the type of weapon used in a crime, because that's the sort of fact that they can use when interrogating witnesses and suspects. You'll see a lot of "unknown" for gun type on our map, and we don't have reliable information in most deaths about whether a gun was purchased or owned legally. There are several cases in which guns were not possessed legally.The weekend of gun violence does leave an impression that few crimes are committed with the assault weapons whose legality is being debated in Washington. We saw one Detroit homicide where a witness said the gun was an AK-47, but police won't say one way or another. And Nehemiah Griego is said to have used a .22-caliber rifle, then a .223-caliber military-style AR-15 semi-automatic rifle.Most of the killing, however, is done with handguns that are not on the political radar, one or two victims at a time, not crimes that depend on high-capacity magazines with more than 10 bullets."
But on the main point, what ideas do you have that would bring down the number of gun deaths in America?
Obama in reality want's all guns. Lets get that out there. This article is promoting to get rid of guns. Also most homicides are not with guns. You should know that. If your going to do a article on gun deaths. Then you need to take all aspects. How many people are killed with knives or some other object. Guns aren't the problem. The problem is the rot of the core of America. Medicines kill more people every year than guns. Drugs should be looked at first then we will start healing america.
Yes they are. In 2011 (most recent data) 8,583 murders out of 12,664 were firearms. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8
lets puts things in perspective...........Amazing NO ONE WANTS TO BAN TOBACCO!!!!!!!!!! WHY IS THAT?
over 500 thousand deaths and yes some of those are kids!
alcohol - over 107 thousand deaths and yes those include kids!
Fire arms - not even 12,000 thousand!
But on the main point, what ideas do you have that would bring down the number of gun deaths in America?
how about getting the gang bangers off the street... go do a story about how we should get rid of street gangs. more children die each year from hunger than guns.
disarm yourself if you want bill, they will be very happy to know you and your wealthy family are unarmed and ripe for the picking.
i will not be!
Thanks leo - exactly. The vast majority of gun homicides are committed by people who know each other and have a criminal record. Chicago is awash with gang related shootings/homicides but yet the number of people joining gangs continue to grow significantly each year.
People need to figure out what they want to focus on when it comes to "gun violence" - is it reducing accidental shootings? mass shootings by mentally unstable folks? domestic violence? gang related?
There is no blanket cure all. Nothing we legislate in terms of gun control will make bad people good. Keeping guns out of the wrong hands we can all agree on - as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of law abiding folks. Stricter penalties we can all agree on. Bans on certain types or magazine limits will do very little to reduce anything but yet that is the shiny object the politicians and uninformed gaze at.
If we care about raw numbers, the deaths are bad people shooting bad people so we an either 1) let them continue so the number of bad people drops 2) come down hard on them which probably means some of them will have their rights violated (since they don't obey our pesky laws) or 3) identify where these bad people come from and why they are bad to begin with.
i wonder if these people (bill and others) actually believe this stuff or just say it to keep their lucrative, high paying jobs with full benefits or are they simply naive to the real world we live in.
just for the record, i have been in a situation where two young men got into our house late at night, i have mentioned it here before. my brother in law had borrowed my truck, so it probably looked like we were gone.
once they got a good clear look down the barrel of my gun, my biggest concern was are they going to piss themselves and my carpet. i remember thinking that at the time. they used the words "oh god" and "please" a lot. no police were called, but i made sure they clearly understood that i would blow their heads "completely" off if they ever came back. they wisely chose not to do so....
who knows what would have happened if i had not had a big bad gun.
with all due respect bill, in the same situation you and your family would most likely have been raped, robed and probably murdered because you got a good look at their faces.
be careful what you wish for. i have no idea where you hail from, but i am sure someone near you has no problem with doing all these things and more, just to take what you and i would consider trivial belongings with no real value.
either way, good luck helpless citizen.
hopefully, one or more of your armed neighbors will come to your rescue. should the situation present itself...
Bill,
Since you ask. The focus should be more on keeping guns out of the hands of gang bangers, children and the mentally ill. Over the past several years I believe most guns used in the mass murders were legally purchased guns. So the criminal background checks or banning of high capacity magazines or semi-automatic guns will do little in the way of curbing death by guns.
People this is america law abidng folks have the right to own assault weapons. If they break the law we need to enforce said law. This is not about saving lives if it were we would be trying to ban abortion as well.
Bill: When is MSNBC going to do a series of stories about the gang members and drug dealers who are the trigger-fingers behind many of these gun deaths? That poor girl who died in Chicago several days ago was not killed by a gun that chased her down and shot her, but by a psychotic gang member holding a gun that chased her down and shot her...she was simply at the wrong place at the wrong time, and when responding to the event, all the Chicago politicians could talk about was those evil guns...not a peep about out of control gang violence in that city (murder capitals like Detroit, Philly, and Washington have the same problem with no MSM outcry, curiously). Any thoughts about this, Mr. Dedman?
Thank you Bill for both the statistics. I am sure it wasn't sarcasm as you've probably cited those yourself and its useful to have all parties looking at the same number. The key thing I took away from this article is the fact that we do have a gun problem. Whether the solution is banning all weapons, assault weapons or somehow creating an "intention detection" device, remains to be seen.
There is no one fit all solve everything solution, if there were we'd be doing it by now.
Bill
I like the fact you're trying to be non biased.
My solution is simple.
Anyone convicted of homicide/rape/kidnapping should never again be in society. These people are responsible for ~30% of all homicides in the USA every year.
Second get some clean data to us! The government should release type of weapon used the persons conviction record, relationship status with the victim, actually everything about the incident possible to collect. If we had the full FBI/DOJ database we could do way more with the data to help determine what crimes indicate likelihood to commit homicide since we know the ~75% of all homicides are committed by felons. Every number we can get is typically a % of a % with assumptions because the data isn't clean and the tables the DOJ put out are horrible.. I'd love to get my hands on the entire database and really analyse it.
Bill Dedman, You are blowing so much smoke here. An aftermarket semi-automatic AR-15 rifle is nothing more than that. PERIOD. We have had semi-automatic firearms in this country shortly after they were first manufactured long ago.
Just because it "LOOKS LIKE" a military weapon means NOTHING. The ones owned by civilian Americans are NOT FULLY AUTOMATIC.......... Simply stated, "They are NOT machine guns." I am a US Marine 1970-73."
Get this straight with people and quit dancing around the facts. One pull of the trigger results in one bullet down the barrel. The ejection of brass is automatically done as well as another cartridge is automatically chambered for the next trigger pull. That is called SEMI-AUTOMATIC. It is used for accurate long range shooting and results in slow fire, controlled breathing and then bringing the sights (scope) back into alignment with the target. Pulling the trigger rapidly would result in POOR LONG RANGE SHOOTING.
It is an improvement over using bolt action or lever action rifles that take time to eject the brass and chamber a new cartridge for your next shot.
We used M-16 rifles in the Corps (70's thru 90's) which could be switched from semi-auto to full-auto. An AR-15 only looks like an "M-16 MILITARY ASSAULT RIFLE"......... but is NOT a machine gun.
An M-16 set on FULL-AUTO is used in combat when extreme accuracy is not required such as closed in combat with multiple enemy near by.... or when used to lay down suppressive fire to protect your squad teams as the advance or change positions during intense skirmishes.
One quick pull of the trigger using FULL-AUTO can instantly send out 3, 4 or 5 bullets before you release pressure on the trigger.
Piers Morgan tried to make the point that an AR-15 civilian rifle was not much different than a FULL-AUTO Military Assault Rifle. He doesn't know diddly-squat about any of that stuff. Piers Morgan is a blowhard FOOL. We need to kick him out of the USA. We smacked those smart-ass British in the face long ago and sent them home crying to their mommies.
I can't believe he is here talking his crap during our time of difficulty as we still mourn the loss of the Sandy Hook children. Piers Morgan and Barack Obama are using those dear little children to push their Anti-American agenda. I cannot believe that Obama is going down the gun-banning road.
It will be the bite in the ass of Democrats that swing the power back to the Republicans. I can't stand most of those turncoat DC politicians in both parties. They have failed us, and they DO NEED TO WORRY ABOUT the next round of elections.
@ State Media yesman Bill,
In your collapsed comment you say "read the article" Did you read the article before the Propaganda Minister had you put your name on it?