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Subscribe to RSSFamily and friends remember 21-year-old shooting victim Rebecca Foley, a student at Savannah State University in Georgia, and grapple with her loss.
Theirs are the faces behind the numbers. A hard-working college student shot in her prized car. A fun-loving 2-year-old accidentally shot by his brother. An aging rocker killed for a thousand bucks.
A special weeklong examination of gun violence, gun ownership and gun legislation. NBC News journalists will report across "NBC Nightly News," "TODAY," MSNBC, CNBC, NBCNews.com, and more. The conversation will also extend across NBC News and MSNBC's social media platforms using the hashtag #GunsInUSA.
As part of a special NBC News report, “Flashpoint: Guns in America,” NBCNews.com catalogued 91 shooting deaths across the country between Jan. 19 and 21, the weekend the nation marked the memory of Martin Luther King Jr. and ushered a president into his second term. While not a statistically valid sample, the snapshot of gun violence in America is intended to illuminate both the magnitude of the problem and the personal toll such violence inflicts at a time of national debate about gun rights and gun control in the wake of the Newtown, Conn., school shooting.
The victims we found died during robberies, after arguments, in moments of despair. They were killed by loved ones, by strangers, by their own hand. Each story, in its own way, is heartbreaking. As the country awaits President Barack Obama’s State of the Union address on Tuesday night, we share a handful of them here:
Rebecca Foley worked as a babysitter, office clerk and cater-waiter to put herself through college, and she scraped and saved to make her first big purchase: a 2006 cherry-red Volkswagen Beetle. The 21-year-old business student adored tooling around Savannah, Ga., with the windows down.
Courtesy Sarah Shoup
Rebecca Foley, left, leans against her VW Beetle with friend Sarah Shoup in this undated photo.
On the evening of Jan. 21, she was driving home with her boyfriend of a year following behind in his own car after getting his nails painted because he lost a bet with her, police said. He got caught up in traffic and so she was alone as she piloted the car into her apartment complex’s parking lot, past the live oak trees and hanging moss, toward her tidy garden-level unit.
What happened next is a mystery, but the boyfriend told police that when he finally caught up, he found the little red car stopped at a bizarre angle and Foley slumped over the steering wheel. She had been shot, apparently while the car was still moving, and would be dead within minutes. The rear, driver-side window was shattered by a single bullet that left a hole the size of a 50-cent piece. No arrests have been made, despite a $6,000 reward, and the motive is unknown.
To family and friends, Foley’s violent end still seems unreal.
“She never was around anybody who would put her in a bad situation. She never had any enemies,” said Alixandra Scalia, 20, a former roommate.
Interactive map: A long weekend of gun deaths. Click to enlarge.
Friends and family members use almost identical language to describe Foley, calling her a beautiful, hard-working young woman who was determined to put old family troubles behind her and realize her goal of a degree, grad school and a good job in the risk-management industry.
Born in Charlotte, N.C., and raised in rural Virginia and Georgia by her divorced mom, Foley played the violin at 4 but didn’t read until second grade, after she was diagnosed with attention-deficit disorder. She had a rocky relationship with her mother, Jennifer, and moved out when she was 17.
“She said, ‘I can’t live under your roof and I won’t.’ But she graduated high school, which doesn’t always happen in these cases, and she went on to college,” her mother told NBC News.
She bounced between several colleges and overcame academic setbacks before enrolling full-time at Savannah State University, where she hit her stride. Her mother said she “worked her butt off” to stay on track, and one of her professors wrote that she was a “joy to work with.”
She would rise at 4:30 some mornings to fit in work in a local insurance office before school. She kept her credit score on a Post-it note and cooked dinner with a friend every night to save money.
At Christmas, she splurged a little on her “very first cruise” to the Bahamas, said one of her bosses, insurance agent Mitchell Bush. She dreamed of buying a fixer-upper on Tybee Island, an island town near Savannah.
“We had just talked about that on Sunday -- and Monday she was dead,” said her grandmother, Lois Fowler.
The night of the shooting, Foley’s two roommates were in the apartment when they heard her boyfriend banging on the door.
“He was just saying, ‘Rebecca’s been shot and just kept repeating that,’” said Abbey Bernal, 22. “Medics tried to resuscitate her, and it was too late. I just saw them pull the sheet over her head.”
Friends and family said they can’t believe they won’t see Foley’s flashing blue eyes and big smile again. They remember how she loved cream of potato soup, wore SpongeBob slippers and doted on her Shih-Tzu named Zoe.
Jim Seida / NBC News
Jennifer Foley holds a portrait of her daughter, Rebecca, inside her Calhoun, Ga. home.
Foley’s mother said she and her daughter had grown closer in recent months and that Rebecca had called the day she was killed to ask what dishes would go well with a pork roast.
And there was another conversation she remembered.
“She called me not six months ago and said she had a dream that she was going to die young,” her mother said. “I told her, ‘I don’t think that’s true. I hope that’s not true.’”
******
Family members say they’ll remember 2-year-old Travin Varise for how his chubby face would break into the sweetest smile, how excited he got every time “Finding Nemo” came on, how he went after a drumstick with gusto.
And how he loved his big brother, Terrance.
Family photo
Travin Varise, 2, was fatally shot at his Baton Rouge, La., home on Jan. 21.
“Terrance growed his little brother up,” his aunt, Juanita, said. “Before my sister knew who the baby’s father was, he raised him up like it was his son.”
That’s why, the family says, it’s tragic that Terrance, 18, is now locked up, charged with accidentally killing the toddler while playing with a friend’s .357 Magnum at their Baton Rouge, La., home. He has not yet entered a plea.
“It’s so hard,” said the boys’ mother, Yarnell.
She was crying, but her voice took on an edge as she complained she had not been able to visit her eldest child because the jail is too far away. “I want him to know it’s going to be all right. I know he didn’t do it on purpose,” she said.
Terrance was on probation after pleading guilty to burglary in May, but his mother said he was a “good dude” who had matured since then. His aunt said he didn’t carry a weapon – “We don’t allow guns in the house” – but had been hanging out with “the wrong crowd.”
Terrance’s Facebook page, however, suggests an interest in guns. There’s a photo of a small arsenal laid out on a plaid bedspread, another where he is holding a silver revolver at his side, a third where he appears to be dangling a shotgun from one finger.
East Baton Rouge District Attorney Hillar Moore says he sees pictures like that all the time after a young person is arrested for a violent crime.
“Do you know where your guns are? Because young kids play with guns and bad things happen sometimes,” he said. “I think it’s video games and stuff – no one really dies and everyone wakes up the next morning. There’s a whole culture of kids not knowing it’s real.”
Read Part 1: Death takes no holiday: Tracking gun violence over one long January weekend
Terrance Varise is getting his fill of reality now. He’s being held on charges of negligent homicide, cruelty to a minor and weapons possession along with a probation violation. He was not allowed to attend Travin’s funeral.
“He feels the pain and he’s going to live with this for the rest of his life,” his aunt said.
His mother said she feels like she’s lost two children.
“My father Jesus does things for a reason, but I don’t know what the reason is,” she said. “It’s a hurting feeling. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.”
******
“There are two dead people.”
Those chilling words on a 911 call just after midnight on Jan. 21 were the last that anyone heard retired fire inspector William Liebrich utter. He hung up and then, police believe, shot his wife of 30 years, Colleen, before turning the 12-gauge shotgun on himself.
When cops arrived at the Warwick, R.I., home they found a note on the front door saying it was safe to enter and that the couple’s two sons, Bill, 24, and Jeff, 21, should not be allowed in. There were also letters for the boys, unsigned but typed by William, police say.
Before that, the sons said, it had been just like any other day. When Bill left for soccer practice, his dad told him, “Have fun. Be safe, bud.” Jeff watched TV with his dad before meeting friends.
Family photo
Colleen and William Liebrich, in an undated family photo.
“The thing that was so shocking about the whole thing is that life was moving along as normal. There wasn’t a single red flag, there wasn’t anything to show that anything like this could possibly happen. … It still feels like a nightmare,” said Jeff, an information technology student.
But life hadn’t been easy for Colleen. The once-active soccer and karate mom was mostly bedridden in recent months by a range of ailments: pancreatitis, osteoporosis, schizophrenia. She had suffered a seizure, memory loss, confusion and falls.
Warwick Police Capt. Robert Nelson said her condition was not terminal, but Bill recalled his mother hitting “an all-time low, physically and mentally,” on Christmas.
The brothers believe their parents decided together to end their lives. They said their father had never owned a gun and they assume he bought one to carry out a pact.
“It wasn’t just the fact that, you know, she wasn’t getting better,” Bill said. “It was the fact that she was progressively getting worse.”
The police are continuing their investigation into what they have tentatively ruled a murder-suicide and waiting for a trace on where the shotgun came from.
Bill and Jeff are treasuring the good memories of their parents -- their dad playing secret Santa and giving money to families in need, the couple's love of animals, the launch of their mother's salon business, which she eventually gave up because of her health – while coping with sadness and anger.
“I can see where my dad was coming from and I hate to say it like that because I don’t agree with what he did or how he did it,” said Jeff. “But I know what he was doing and the whole point was to put her out of pain, and he did that and she’s not in pain. So there’s a bittersweetness to it. “
Asked if they felt the need to forgive their father, Jeff said, “Obviously our primary focus is that we don’t have our parents anymore. … And so as far as forgiveness, there’s no one there to forgive.”
*****
Her “baby” was turning 7 and Lydia Bradford wanted it to be a day she would remember. She had ordered the cake and was getting the house ready. Soon, the cousins would start arriving for the party.
Her three daughters, including the birthday girl, were playing in the front of her Cocoa, Fla., house with another kid when a man with a ski mask burst in, police said. The terrified children fled as the intruder stalked to the rear of the small house and opened fire on Bradford, 24, and her mother Equaller, 58.
The young mom was killed and Equaller Bradford, shot in the chest and head, is still clinging to life. The motive is unknown and there have been no arrests, though family members suggest the women may have been victims of mistaken identity.
At Lydia Bradford’s funeral, relatives remembered her as a bubbly, carefree single mother devoted to her kids.
Cocoa Police Dept.
Lydia Bradford, 24, was shot dead by a masked gunman who burst into the Cocoa, Fla., home she shared with her mother on Jan. 21.
“Lydia didn’t sweat the small stuff,” said her aunt, Yvonne Smith. “You could hate her, but she loved you back. She was as pretty on the inside as she was on the outside.”
She supported her kids by working as a private-duty nurse. She had recently moved in with her mother and they were looking for a bigger place. Her weekends were full of cookouts and card games with family.
When her uncle Melvin was feeling low after chemotherapy, Bradford’s smile would cheer him up, Smith said. She chuckled as she remembered her niece’s sweet tooth, how she tucked into the homemade sweet-potato pie, lemon meringue pie, banana pudding and cake at Thanksgiving – then complained she had eaten too much.
Because she was a working mother, Bradford tried to make sure that holidays and birthdays were special for her girls. She was planning a Feb. 7 party at Chuck E. Cheese for all the cousins with January birthdays.
“Instead, we were all at her funeral that day,” Smith said, her voice cracking. “I know things like this happen every day, but it’s just sad that someone don’t care no more for life and took my baby away from her girls.”
She worries in particular for the 7-year-old.
“That was her birthday and now she’ll associate that for the rest of her life with the day her mama was killed,” she said.
******
The chain of events that led to Christopher Best’s death began when a big maple tree fell on the corner of his house in the Detroit suburb of Redford, Mich., in early January.
Best, 61, a computer whiz who had done sound and lights for countless rock-and-roll shows in Motor City, hired an old buddy from the music scene, carpenter Chris O’Brien, to repair the roof.
A few weeks later, on the evening of Jan. 21, Best drove to O’Brien’s Detroit home, with his dog Maxi in tow, to pay him $1,000. It was considered a relatively safe neighborhood, a historic district of Victorian homes, and Best had visited many times.
Photo provided by friend
Chris Best, a Detroit music engineer, was slain on Jan. 21 while delivering money to the home of a friend who had done some construction work for him. Police believe the motive was robbery.
But this time, as Best got out of his car, he was “apparently ambushed” by robbers, police say. The sound of gunfire – O’Brien says police told him it was an AK-47 assault rifle-- shattered the dinnertime quiet on the tree-lined street.
“A dozen shots came into my house,” O’Brien recalled. “They were going by both sides of my head. If I would have taken one more step, my head would have been blown clear off.”
When the shooting stopped, he stepped outside and saw his friend of 30 years lying on his lawn. “It was cold that night,” O’Brien said. “I got down and put my arm under his head. He was gasping for air.”
Best, he said, died in the ambulance. No arrests have been made, but police say the motive was robbery.
An IT worker by day, Best’s passion was music. He played the guitar and keyboard and had a reputation as a reliable sound man in Detroit’s music joints. His obituary photo showed him mugging with Alice Cooper.
“He was a good guy, a pretty wholesome guy,” O’Brien. “He wasn’t into drugs, which is amazing for the rock and roll business. He didn’t even drink anymore.”
Best came from a large family; he was one of nine kids. And for years, the bachelor had been a foster parent, opening his home to young people in crisis and mentoring others, friend Sergio Sanchez said.
“He had a big heart,” Sanchez said. “That’s why it’s so hard to believe they shot him down because if they had given him the chance, I’m sure he would have just given them the money.”
******
It was just a fistfight.
Steven Rosalez, 16, got into a scuffle with an ex-con, Julius Short, 23, as he left a store with his friends in Pittsburg, Calif., his family says. It’s not known what prompted the fisticuffs, but when the fight was over, the teen and the older man, who was on probation, went their separate ways.
The Rosalez Family
Steven Rosalez, 16, was killed by gunfire on Jan. 21 after an altercation outside a store in Pittsburg, Calif., allegedly by an ex-con he'd fought with earlier in the day.
That could have been the end of it. But according to police, Short wasn’t one to let it go. He got a gun, found Rosalez and shot him in the back and another 16-year-old in the leg, they said. The other boy survived, but Rosalez died.
“It’s devastated the whole family,” his mother, Wynette, said last Wednesday as Short was arraigned on charges of murder, attempted murder and weapons possession. He has not entered a plea.
She said her son was a happy boy growing up, always surrounded by friends and active in sports until he decided to give up football and baseball in the 10th grade. He was “kind of going through a little rough patch” and had run away from home once but had never been in trouble with the police, she said.
He spent most of his free time with his girlfriend of four years and playing Xbox. He had two brothers and a cousin he treated like a third. He was finishing high school in an independent study program and taking classes at a local college.
“He was loved,” she said, crying.
Short has a 2009 conviction for assault with a deadly weapon and he was on probation at the time of the slaying, which made Rosalez’s mother angry.
Complete coverage of "Flashpoint: Guns in America," an NBC News special report
“I grew up around guns and nobody did this when I was a kid and now here are these people who are felons and on probation and they get guns,” she said. “It’s not right.”
Also contributing to this story and map for NBC News: Daniel Arkin, Meredith Birkett, John Brecher, Bill Dedman, David Friedman, Kriss Chaumont, Polly DeFrank, Shezad Morani, Lisa Riordan Seville, Jonathan Sweeney and Lisa Wilkins.
More from Open Channel:
- Death takes no holiday: Tracking gun violence over one long January weekend
- Obama administration deliberating more cuts in nuclear weapons, sources say
- EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americans
Follow Open Channel from NBCNews.com on Twitter and Facebook
Leave a Comment:
Makes it sound like guns were the causal factor in these events. Don't journalists have to go to college? Don't they learn anything about causality, logic, etc?
The scientific evidence is that murders, etc, happen because of the person committing the crime, not because of a gun. In fact, with similar gun laws France has 3 times the murder rate of Germany. If it was all about the guns, wouldn't we expect their murder rates to be similar? And Luxembourg does not allow guns at all, yet has a much higher murder rate than France. Russia has much stricter gun controls than the US, but has something like 9 times the murder rate. Etc, etc.
OK, were is the multi-capacity magazines used in these shootings ? WHAT none was used, that is the BIG deal that this stupid congress and media has been pushing, same with the AR-15 assault weapons..
You want gun control that works , pass a law that forces gun owners to LOCK UP there weapons and make them responsible if there gun is used !
hey you cant just own a gun and throw it in a drawer ! if your children or a thief uses your gun in a crime and you failed to secure it , you should go to jail just like the criminal who used it !
which is why all the laws they want to make about guns is bullsh1t..... it infringes on 2nd amendment and barely do anything.
on the other hand, a complete ban and confiscation of all firearms would do much to eliminate gun deaths. anything save of this would not do, but since it conflicts with 2nd amendment, this cannot be. thus you just hope you're not the one getting a bullet in you next.
Why doesn't the media tell positive stories about people who survived because of a gun they owned...Nope they have to focus on the negative, just like the skunk will tomorrow nite surrounded by "victims"...
Mike....
How about CRIMINAL control.
NBC has a clear agenda here: demonize firearms and vilify the supporters of the Second Amendment.
You want proof?
The number of alcohol related deaths annually is 75,000.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6089353/ns/health-addictions/t/alcohol-linked-us-deaths-year/#.URmFCvLjHSg
The last time NBC looked at this was 2005.
More people died on the roads on the same weekend NBC mentions.
Leave law-abiding citizens alone, NBC. Look to the real causes of preventable deaths.
Concur it is refreshing to find other views except those of the liberal nuts who think the problem is guns! The problem is our violent society. Too many drug infested citizens who are on dope or sell it for money. The gangbanger punks and other criminals who continue to infest our cities and roam free due to there are no stiff penalities to deter their habits. Liberal judges who let killers out of jail too soon even after these morons have committed several crimes.
Too many idiots dropping out of school who have no discipline instilled in them by parents or others in position of authority. The schools are full of disrespectful punks who could care less if they learn anything and attend school to bully or intimidate others trying to learn. Too many teachers who have no teaching skills but continue to work because of their tenure.
The majors of cities infested with these punks and criminals need to clean them out once in for all and keep them locked up for long periods of time. The prison life is laughable and these morons get to watch TV, work out with expensive exercise equipment and enjoy their gang life while in prison.
The prisons are overcrowed and they let many of these imbeciles out on the street to commit more crimes. Put these morons in a real prison like turkey or Russia and see if they get the message!
Wonder how many babies were aborted over the weekend.
Yes, because banning things works so well.
Look at how successful the marijuana bans have been........oh,wait.
Interesting how NBC puts mostly white attractive faces to sell the progressive agenda when most gun victims are African -American. How racist is that?
Yes Boris, very good point. Women kill more children then any other group thru abortion but you know what thats A-OK cause thats somehow different. Progressives love to use "the children" like Rahm Emmanual loves to do for everything. What Hypocrits.
You people are getting sicker and sicker. I wonder if some of you shouldn't turn yourself in for mental evaluations. Your minds have evidently stopped working in a normal manner. You can only think in one very narrow direction, and any one of you has the potential to be the next "isolated nut job" who takes out a classroom or hospital ER, or workplace, etc.
How many car accidents with serious injury or death as a result over the same period of time? Amazing there's been no cry for a ban on vehicles. You can however be charged with assault with a deadly weapon for trying to run someone down with a car. Odd. It's only considered dangerous when used in the act of committing a crime.
#Dropkickbanana 32k were killed in 2011 and god help me, there are so many people that are not capable of driving seen on the road daily. There are people who do not understand road signs let alone merging.
It is good that NBC is giving this topic the attention it needs. Too long has the media sat by in abdication of their responsiblity. It is good to see them step up and report in a responsible fashion.
About your errorious causal comment. Fact is guns give the kill a few steps away fro mthe vistim. It makes the act eaiser and more sterile. If you kill someone with a knife, chances are you stand toe to toe and the victim has a fighting chance. In how many of the 91 killings, were both parties armed.
Please stop with the flimsy paper thin arguements that make gun advocates look like fools.
everyone and I mean everyone knows there is an epidemic of gun violece in the USA. We are the most trigger happy country on the planet.
My favorite is the indignation over the tragedity in Libya and indifference to the continual on-going disaster of gun violence here at home. What is it about a American life killed at home by another American with a gun that makes it cheaper ? Please explain that to me GOP gun advocate.
How about some pics - of those who have survived abortion - in memory of those who were successfully aborted - as an option - not a life or death or rape situation
Lives - cut short - by choice
What about hammers or baseball bats how many people had there faces smashed in this weekend with hammers and baseball bats ?
we should out law hammers and baseball bats.
LOL MSNBC is at it again. LOL, no killings in Chicago or New York that weekend on the map? MY REAR dudes. You left those deaths off the map so you could say "See? Gun control works!". Bill, if you hate guns so much, don't get one. But dont be a nosy neighbor and tell other people how to live their lives.
The real problem is not guns or any other thing that can be used to harm people it is that there are and always will be people who have mental problems and flip out .....lets try to help these people and protect each other from them when they try to do us harm.
dksouthern:
You are probably not aware, but apparently, this is going to be a whole SERIES on hearing how we should ban all guns by listing gun deaths over a weekend, followed by putting faces to the deaths, probably followed by more deaths associated with guns.
While it is very sad, and I wish that it didn't happen, taking gun rights away from 300 MILLION Americans because 1000 idiots decided to do hateful, stupid, and sensless things is not right, it is not legal, and it is not the correct action for our nation to take.
If you don't understand that, then based on your comment, you are more likely to be the "isolated nut job" (as you said) to shoot into a crowd of people... likely just to prove a point.
If you don't want to own a gun, that is fine... don't take away MY right to own one because of your fear, uneducated ideas, or naive outlook that every citizen would be fine and dandy without guns to protect ourselves.
Ahh, rgswhatever-
And the irrationally stupid arguments just keep coming and coming and coming. You wouldn't know reality if it walked up and well, hit you in the face with a baseball bat.
mike-2598123
Uh, no thanks. When someone is breaking into your home, the last thing you need is to fumble for a key or try to remember a lock's combination when your heart is beating a couple hundred times a minute as you fear for your life.
The best thing to do is keep it hidden but accessible if you have small children, keep the children SUPERVISED and DISCIPLINED (I know... being a responsible parent is tough for lackadaisical people these days) and if they're old enough, EDUCATE them on firearms.
mike you must be a member of congress. that is probably the dumbest comment I have ever seen.
Payyour way-
This discussion is not about taking ALL guns. It is about an irrational infatuation with guns that has infected this country, and that infatuation seems to be feeding an irrational paranoia that is becoming a mental illness all its own. The fact that you cited ALL guns is indicative of that paranoia, don't you think? And why in hell would you object to putting faces in the discussion? These ARE people we're talking about; people with good lives in most cases, who work hard just like you (I assume), and people who might have had a long, bright future ahead of them. And now they're gone because the NRA has fought hard to make it easy for someone to access a gun.
Because coyotehunter, NBS works for obama. They are the worst of all news agencies. They want to be the central news agency when freedom of press and speech are hanging on a thread.
I can't wait till some honest journalist writes an article about how much money the media is getting paid to try to brainwash the public and to present an unpopular agenda. To misinform and misrepresent and distort the truth. When you start pushing ideas and opinions that make no logical sense even when FACTS stare you right in the face you know its BLSHT and someone is making big bucks to be an idiot. Piers Morgan topping that list.
If these are brainwashing articles then I say brainwash is good. But brainwashing requires a brain - so that rules out GOP folks.
adam - linus :
a little common sense would be good, if you both are gun owners heaven help us.
when your home you can keep your primary weapon at YOUR ready. the rest need to be locked up when your NOT AT HOME ! most of this happens when people aren't home and your little thug children start going through your things or a thief ! criminals cant own guns they STEAL them from people like you who need every weapon you own laying around the house cause your an afraid little girl !
Wow!!!
Imagine, in one weekend, 91 separate deaths all across the country.
Nothing similar in any of them.
OH, except the one thing present in each death. Each and every person who died was SHOT WITH A GUN.
What is really amazing is that simple explanation for what ties all these stories together doesn't seem to penetrate the little minds clinging to there little pieces of metal hoping that they get security to keep their useless lives together. They spout off about the 2nd Amendment, never realizing that it was meant as security for the defense of the state.
wonder how many people were saved...in that three day peroid... because a theif is afraid to enter a house were there may be a gun...how many woman were't raped in a house that might have a gun...how many kids did'nt get kidnaped in a house were there might be a gun...etc...etc...etc...and the beat goes on...
I believe there is a term called, "Fight fire with fire" not "Fight fire with a match, in case you need fire." The problem is not guns, that's a governmental "Deflective Response". That throws the spotlight on guns, not crazy fu@king people. I grew up with a gun in my hand, watched cowboys kill thousands of Indians, Mexicans and other white people. Went to school with just about every student with a pocket knife and/ or gun rack in the truck. Got into a few fights with those kids, not once did someone get stabbed or shot, why? What dynamic has changed in 20 years?
TV and Video Games are a cop out, it's bad parenting. Prime example was that Dollar General clerk snatching up that snotty brat kid and giving him some consequence of lack of manners. That clerk should have gone for broke and grabbed the parent and done the same thing. We got fooled into believing that spanking equates to beating kids. There is a line that can be crossed in discipline (like that d!ck judge spanking his daughter, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpqcrwcghx4 ).
I had more fear and yet respect for my parents because of it.
mike-2598123
My house is a busy place, there's very rarely a time when someone isn't in it. Also, in case you are hard of reading as I suspect you are, I am very much in favor of keeping children supervised. I certainly would not keep weapons in easy reach if I had any (which I don't).
Lastly, your pathetic name-calling showcases your inability to come up with a good counter-argument. Resorting to 3rd grade insults is a sign of a weak mind. Be that as it may, with as much firepower as I have I am not afraid of anything, thank you very much. I honestly feel bad for anyone stupid enough to try to break into my home, since everyone in my house is well versed in how to handle a firearm.
I agree with those that have requested a side by side map of those that were SAVED by someone with a gun versus terminated. The problem is two fold. 1) it does not fit the agenda of TPTB to disarm us. 2) it would NEVER get a fair evaluation. This was proven by the fact that MANY places that have strict gun laws were left off the current map.
The same can be said for you. You apparently do not read history. Both ancient AND modern history proves beyond a shadow of doubt that removing guns from the public does absolutely NOTHING to deter VIOLENT CRIME. Actually, if you would open your tiny mind just a little you will see that it does nothing but INCREASE the cause of violent crime.
What is that cause? Criminals are very much aware of the INABILITY OF A VICTIM TO DEFEND THEMSELVES. That is why these people target WOMEN and OLD PEOPLE first. CHILDREN are another prime target. Where guns are allowed and encouraged VIOLENT CRIME plummets.
So, get out of your own narrow minded, NBC MSM mindset and study and think for yourself.
MSNBC, I am ashamed FOR you. Pandering to Obama is your major activity.
Why don't you ever prints the stories about the off duty police officer that saved the life of a citizen and himself? Why don't you ever print the story of the housewife who shot and killed the pervert who broke into her house? Why don't you print the story of the teenager who prevented the thief from coming in through the back door?
Why? Your yellow journalism has cost you ratings; are you ever going to learn?
@ HNL.......Yeah, yeah, yeah, but lets compare 'apples to apples'. All of the western European countries have a much lower murder rate per 100,000 than the good ole USA, and we are not just talking about gun violence....all murder rates.
Nothing happens when it comes to Issues such as gun control or drug abuse untill it hit the rich.
In sept 07 in Gary In I myself was a victim of a crime that involved a firearm and what did the government do?? Nothing and at that time I was in The National Guard. NO ONE said anything about (GUN CONTROL or who was going to pay the high medical bills. I was supose to be one of your finest to defend this country and the constotution . Then the issue about semi and auto firing wepons the only ones who would have the AR15 are collectors and the military. and or the underground along with the cartel. AR15 were later modified to be the M16 then came the M16A1 along with the M16A2 which is not full auto. The media along with the politicians and Obama get it straight. you want to give the Muslium Brotherhood the newest in wepons to be used against us later.( like Desert Shield/ Desert storm ) we destroyed our old equipment that was outdated now we are selling them the best of the best to even the playing field. Like i said you need to research before reacting. The goverment thinks they have the answers but they don't. they keep the poor poor and dream up more laws on top of laws.
I see the Nobody But Communists (NBC) network heeded Biden's call to turn up the propaganda.
Pathetic.
What of Maria Jimenez? A beautiful 6 year old girl who was run down in her own fenced in front yard by a drunk driver? tens of thousands of people are killed or maimed from alcohol every year. It costs our economy billions of dollars. Where is the call to ban alcohol and end the mayhem?
The left is stupid.
PJ-1795048 - Well you keep on reading these then. If your mind cant function on its own I'm not gonna fight over you. You just let somebody steer. Dont want you getting all crazy and all. Nobody is debating party lines. We're talking about the constitution. If you dont like our constitution move to a different country. There's plenty of them out there. People who cant defend themselves from from corrupt citizens or corrupt government. A government that disarms their citizens wants to be a tyrant government. Otherwise there are great benefits to arming citizens. One of the biggest is that this protects the country from invasion and in the case of an invasion we have a great advantage. The whole country is a military. So, WHY erode on this using rediculous arguments and twisted facts?
It appears that the agenda for the USA is to disarm the citizens, to usher in the new world goverment. With todays news of the current Pope stepping down, tied to the prediction of St.Malichy, time is running out. People beware of the coming times.
Do not believe anything you read on BSNBC!! They are told what to write and how to write it. Do more research on reputable sites!! They will not win this gun fight no matter what the obama gang does!!
wow, only 91 deaths in a country of 300 million? can this be right? have they counted any of the gangbangers or what? they couldn't have,if you add up the approximately 6-12 every weekend in chicago with the other big cities...it would seem they are hiding some! Let's face it folks,the above mentioned "gangbangers" account for about 75% or more per year of these "gun violence" stats, how come we don't look at that avenue? or is it too dark down there?
Keep pushing NBC. We know where you agenda lies, but you will fail, not just the organization but your eager, albeit clueless, reporters. If you want to make a better point, perhaps if you show some crime scene or post mortem pictures, that might help get the attention of whoever's attention you're trying to get. Trying to cover up a full out attack on firearms by portraying it as a personal interest story is, as usual, a cheap shot.
Wow guns did all this and nobody pulled a trigger? I wonder how many drunk cars killed over the week as well? Liberal mind control is for such simpletons without logic. I don't think my dog would fall for their games. These people should be hostile at the media for causing all of these deaths with their glamorizing causing copycat killings. The media is culpable in these deaths! I hope you writers each feel a bit guilty for each of these mass killings that happened after the first. If you reported it then you assisted the demented in thinking about their future stardom, friggin dumb-ass media always trying for ratings and don't care how may it kills you just blame guns.
Yea, yea, yea. It was only yesterday when Dedman and his phony cronies swore this was stoic research of a social problem. Hook another charge to the gas tank Bill - pyrojournalism at it's best.
Amazing...a 3 day holiday weekend without a reported murder in Chicago. It seems like this weekend was carefully picked by (MS)NBC to leave our murder capital out. About 90+% of gun crime is perpetrated using handguns. When Houston was the murder capital of the WORLD 2 years in a row, 1979 + 1980, with over 600 murders per year (differentiated from "deaths" and "gun deaths"), one could hardly go 2 days without a murder.
This article focuses on "gun crimes", attempting in some 'sly', liberal way to increase hysteria against guns. The author should remove the suicides from the count, as they will be accomplished one way or another. A .357 (Moscow, Idaho) makes moot the need to write "dnr" on ones arms, chest, forehead etc. should one ingest large quantities of barbiturates or rat poison, or fall in front of a subway, bus, truck or train or any other accident that would inflict grievous injury and probably be death inducing. Self-defense should be removed as well as police shootings; murder-suicides are a social/moral tweener - your love of 30+ years, dying of terminal, fast moving, pancreatic cancer, complicated by loss of self through schizophrenia. If I were the afflicted, please end my misery. Didn't Dr. Jack Kevorkian spend over 8 years in prison regarding this issue while in his 70s? Killing or causing a death and suicide following realization and remorse is not that uncommon. The depressed "there's no way out of this, we both (or all) gotta go" is not a rare occurrence either.
I an positing that it is not about the instrument of death, it's about the state of mind of the individual using the instrument.
So, because these people didn't have the means of self protection, and were murdered by people who don't obey the laws, I need to have my Constitutionally enumerated rights. I wonder how you people will feel, once guns are outlawed and violent crimes soar to new heights, the government uses this precedent to restrict OTHER enumerated rights to "fight crime".
Okay..this article is the last straw...changing my home page to Fox News so I don't have to read any more of your moronic headlines and articles. I was a journalist back when fairness, honesty and competence mattered more than pushing your insipid liberal agenda at every opportunity.
The media must be getting pretty desperate. Because they know most of Obama's draconian gun proposals will either get knocked out or watered down by Congress. They know the eighty five million legal, law abiding gun owners won't be easily intimidated. And we're NOT buying their bull. We've had enough of our Constitutional rights taken away. We're not giving up any more.
This isn't objective journalism. This is biased, anti-Second Amendment trash.
Blah blah blah, tired of the press trying to control guns. Yup this is how hitler did it, get the unions on board, then the press. The press is just another corporation who has no interest in protecting your rights. It is about power pure and simple. All this in the name of hope and change but I do not think there is much hope anymore just change.
Is it me or am I starting to feel like I'm being 'targeted" by the media because I'm a gun owner and no matter how strongly that I feel in favor of tighter laws on guns and gun ownership, why am I beginning to feel like I'm being vilified because of bad people and bad (current) law? I share nothing with idiots like Ted Nugget and that fool who speaks for the NRA other than my love of guns... is it just me? All of the media sites have decided that this is what they want to latch onto, but lying and cheating politicians who pass weak law that make it possible for guns to get into the wrong hands, well that's OK... economy gone to crap, no problem... civil rights under attack, no worries... trying to steal the vote from the voters, yeah, whatever.
DAMN I'M SO GLAD TO BE HERE!
Trust2112: You are absolutely correct, that is probably the big dynamic that has changed. Today's people who refuse to accept responsibility for their actions, or to make other accept responsibility for their actions is huge. You can see them fill these forums, and they are all over this one as well. It is easier to blame an inanimate object or someone else then to put blame where it really belongs. I remember growing up the same type of a world as you have, and I have raised my son and seen all my neices and nephews raised the same way we were....and so far not a single problem with any of them and I am so happy to my folks and family for instilling these values in me. These kids we have raised even know how to accept blame when they do wrong. I am even proud when my teenage son is ashamed at most of his generation and the other whiners in our country who prefer to place blame anywhere but upon their own heads or the heads of those who deserve it.
I hope one day most of the lemming in this country either die off or their kids wake up enough to grow up, because it is a sad thing to think so little of our country knows what it means to be responsible.
As for all the people that did die in violent crimes this weekend may you all RIP.
82AA: Your just part of the small 5% who blelieve that there is something in life worth standing up for and trusting in "our rights as Americans as given by the constitution". But just because you have defended these rights for most of the americans, does not mean they care if you get to keep your own rights, they know what is best for you and will force it down your throat even if it is against your will and done with lies.
Curahee!
Innkeeper... I don't seek nor do I expect any special favors because I served, I do however expect that because I respect and obey the law that my rights be respected too... that's all.
rgsdca1965
As for all the people that did die in violent crimes this weekend may you all RIP.
#1.50 - Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:48 PM CST
I share those sentiments... but I should not be treated or made to feel as though I'm at fault because I own an AR15.... don't you agree?
51% of murders, including 51% of gun murders, are caused by the existence of the Drug War. If you add the drug gang related murders and the non-gang related drug motivated murders (over drugs and drug turf) you get 51%. Rifles are responsible for 3.5% of homocides, 1.7% of murders, and "assault" rifles are subset of total rifles.
Where are all the media stories about the CAUSAL relationship between the bans on drugs and murder rates?
Instead the publish stories about the CORRELATION between guns and murder (and even gun murder).
In 1920-1921, the first year of alcohol Prohibition, the crime rate went up 24%. In the 13 years of Prohibition, 1920-1933, the crime rate went up 78%. In 1933, the year Prohibition of alcohol ended, in one year the MUDER RATE FELL 40%.
The cause of most gun murder is the Drug War, not guns. Guns are correlated as a tool used in the murder, not the cause of the murder.
If I give you a choice between living in 2 places, a room with 9 other people with guns, and a room with 9 other people with no guns, which room would you trathetr live in as the 10th roommate?
Now, what if the room with no guns had the probability of 3 murders in the time period of your lease, and the room with guns had a probability of 2 murders in the time period of your lease?
Any RATIONAL person chooses the room with guns because it has a lower probability of murder.
For those of you trying to confuse the issue by pointing elsewhere, keep in mind that this article is not about abortion. It is not about alcohol. It is not about France or Pakistan. It is only about politics when you think that your blind allegiance to one party or the other absolves you of any responsibility for our nation taking a hard look at itself and its values. And since so many of you wanted to know, I found reliable data from the National Institutes of Health that the number of times a firearm is successfully used for legitimate self-defense (as opposed to their use for intimidation) is between 0.15 and 0.2 % of all shootings. In other words, for each time a gun is used legally for self- defense, there were 22 times when guns were used for assault, homicide, suicide, and accidents. A US Department of Justice study shows that only one percent of actual or attempted victims of violent crime tried to defend themselves or their families with a firearm. Data from the FBI’s Crime in the United States reveals that for every time that a civilian used a handgun to kill in self-defense, 50 people lost their lives in handgun homicides. That doesn't include the suicides and the accidents. Now you know. And I don't think this data helps your case in the least.
My father used to remind people that the only thing anyone has to do is grow old and die. Enough people have managed to evade taxes in this world that the 'death and taxes' adage isn't as certain as it's supposed to be. You'll never see a law passed that forces anybody to do anything, including lock up their weapons. All a law can do is penalize those who fail to do so and hope that it has enough deterrent effect to make a difference.
Unfortunately, that doesn't fly, legally. If you failed to take reasonable measures to secure a firearm and it falls into the wrong hands, you can be convicted and sentenced for that, provided it happened in a jurisdiction where there is a law making it a crime to leave a firearm unsecured. You will not, however, be held as an accomplice or an accessory to the perpetrator of a crime committed with your stolen gun unless it can be proved that was not actually stolen but that you knowingly provided it to the perpetrator.
Most jurisdictions do have laws against leaving a firearm where a minor can freely access it; that's fairly universal. However, if that minor breaks the lock, busts the cabinet open, or resorts to other fairly extreme measures to get to the gun, the gun owner is extremely unlikely to be charged with a crime because they took what most people would consider to be reasonable measures to secure their firearm, i.e.: locking it up. The law recognizes that people who lock things up have a right to expect the lock to not be broken. If that expectation wasn't acknowledged, burglary would not be treated as the serious felony that it is and the courts would hold that every homeowner should just expect housebreakers to enter occasionally, despite the use of locks, and that it's a risk one assumes when occupying a home. You'll never see a court take that position, I guarantee it. If you lock anything up, the law is always on your side if someone breaks, cuts, or otherwise defeats your lock.
I have a safe and several locked cabinets, that being said keeping a gun in ones locked home is reasonable enough for a lock. How about penalizing the person stealing or breaking into your home. A persons home is their domain what goes on inside, outside of the obvious stuff is your business. Where would your liability stop in these peoples eyes? The fact that your home is broken into and you are victimized with theft shouldn't make you a target for being victimized by the law, your home should be considered secure, now go after the criminals and get off this victimizing law abiding citizens and or thinking of how much more difficult you can make their lives.
mike-2598123
I am not sure about the whole ramifications of DC v. Keller, but if I am not mistaken, such a law, "that forces gun owners to LOCK UP there weapons" would be Unconstitutional.
I have come across others who would have us "lock 'em up", "secure them" or other wise render them useless as home defense, and I was merely pointing out that while it may help a little, there are holes in the plan. And I would not subject myself or my loved ones to such holes.
Do you have kids at home? A safe is a good idea if you do, regardless, I do not. But here is the problem. Let's say they make it mandatory to lock up all guns. And you have kids at home. Let's say a guy breaks in, sees the safe, and proceeded to put a knife, to your kids neck, would you open the safe? Knowing you will probably die if do, or gamble you might still make it out alive, knowing those guns will be used in another crime? Or is it better to have one at the ready to defend against such an improbable attack?
And even if they were to pass such a law, and make gun owners liable for crimes committed with their guns, (just about as useful as making you liable for someone stealing your car to rob a bank. How would you like to be accessory to bank robbery?) What is your statute of limitations on such an event? Let's say I sold a gun to a friend of mine, and he used to kill his estranged wife. When am I off the hook? 6 months? 2 years? 25 years? Never?
If you want gun control that works, quit controlling guns, and start executing gang bangers and people who use guns in crime.
What makes it reliable? Drones are so funny with their made up facts.
Let's use the most obvious to shoot your "reliable facts" down. Police use firearms every day. And that's only the police. There is no way to substantiate yours or theirs assertion. Simply the thought that a person may have a gun as a means of self-defense is a deterrent which is unmeasurable but real.
Stop Funding Illegals
Ditto SFI, with one exception, my door's threshold, lock or not, is the only barrier that needs to be enforced. One thing I have learned over the years is that a locked door only keeps out "honest" people. If a criminal wants in, a broken window is all it takes. (Unless of course you build yourself a fortress)
Maybe if we quit following the liberals, "Criminals have Rights too", BS, we wouldn't be having these problems.
DeeDeeDee, you did not cite the specific studies you mentioned. Unless you provide the documentation, I suspect you are stretching the truth. For example, Gary Kleck from Florida State University conducted a survey in 1988 and found that as many as 2.5 million crimes per year are thwarted by armed citizens. That was over 20 years ago. The number of armed citizens has massively increased as almost all states now have some kind of concealed carry laws on the books and the increase in the types of small, concealable handguns, holsters and accessories available bears this out. Of particular note is the huge increase in the number of women who now carry concealed. Anything the NIH puts out is likely biased against gun ownership. I'd like you to cite that particular study from DOJ showing such a small number of people tried to defend themselves with a firearm. That sounds awfully specious to me.
DeeDeeDee
"when you think that your blind allegiance to one party or the other absolves you of any responsibility for our nation taking a hard look at itself and its values"
Are you referring to the liberals and Democrats and their responsibility in this the mess we call America? And if so, just what responsibility are you referencing?
I think I already have your opinion of gun owners responsibility. That being, that we purposely and recklessly endanger the public, by simply owning firearms, that can be easily stolen by otherwise virtuous criminals. But please do tell me, what responsibility the liberals share in this. I want to see if you, or any others here will admit to it.
Once the Traitors Obama, Sen. Fienstein and Gov. Cuomo destroy the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States
Only the Criminals will have Guns
YO PMSNBC, WHERE ARE THE STORIES ABOUT THE FACES BEHIND THE GUNS?
We all know all about assault weapons, multiple capacity clips, bullet velocities and of course all the associate tragedies of gun violence regardless if it's significant or not.
Of course we have firmly established that all the murders in these cases were caused by the same thing.
ROGUE GUNS!
Yes, these guns have been mysteriously increasing in number. They have the unexplainable ability to be able to discharge into one or more victims and then magically jump into the hands of unsuspecting humans who are innocent except for their associations. Does this sound ridiculous to anyone else?
THAT'S BECAUSE IT IS RIDICULOUS!!!!
Every case of murder has an intimate association of a human being and the gun. The gun is no more capable of causing death, violence or injury than a computer can just post a comment on this board by itself. They both require an intimate association between an inanimate object and human control.
How many of you are aware of what mental illness Jared Loughner was diagnosed with and how it was correlated to his murderous rage?
How many of you know what James Eagan Holmes was diagnosed with and how it's associated with his homicidal rampage? Why did he withdraw from school? How many of you even know who he is?
Did mental illness fuel Wade Michael Pages massacre or was it terrorism? Why wasn’t he discharged from the military in 1998 with an honorable discharge? Was this associated with his massacre? How many of you know he was not honorably discharged? How many of you know he was assigned to psychological operations, an exclusive department that develops and deploys intelligence information used for psychological effect (propaganda)? How many of you know he had broken up with his girlfriend prior to his attack? Did this have any effect on him mentally?
The complicit media continues to distract from any other factors that may be associated with all these heinous crimes.
The emphasis is all on the weapons. Because this is the easy thing to focus on. It’s way too difficult for the indoctrinated media to become informed about mental illness and all its implications in crime, violence and murder. It’s much easier for the biased, partisan media to parrot Barrack Husseins propaganda than to truly investigate all the possibilities.
Yellow journalism is alive and well at PMSNBC and all the networks. Eye-catching headlines and sensationalism drives the gossip-fest and pandering that masquerades for reporting. If there is any “in-depth” investigation you still have to research it yourself to be sure it’s accurate.
So, anyway, don’t worry if one of the millions of rogue guns running around uncontrolled kills someone and then jumps in your hand, you won’t be blamed. It’s due to the type of gun, the size of its ammo clip or whether it is legally registered.
Personal responsibility is no longer an issue in America.
Average response time 911 call: 23 minutes
Average response time of a .357: 1400 feet per second
Eh, probably not. Unless...
...you have no minor children in the house and you never have company over.
The fact that your exterior doors have locks means zip when it comes to the many places where laws prohibit allowing minors free access to firearms because, presumably, your kids are living in the house with you. A reasonably sturdy lock on a bedroom or a closet door would probably be all right, though, as long as it gets used. If the minor child or one of his friends gets to that gun, they'd better have had to break that lock and not just open the door because the lock wasn't locked. As an aside, those exterior locks had better actually get used, too. It's not really the same thing...an uninvited guest entering through an unlocked door is still committing a housebreaking, while a minor living in the house is not when he or she opens doors or drawers within the house. A broken lock, a smashed door, or a broken window at least reinforces in everyone's mind that you are the victim and that the burglary and theft wasn't the result of your own carelessness.
If you let friends and acquaintances come and go with relative freedom as some folks do, those exterior locks cease to be much of a factor. What the law expects is that the lock is between the gun, or the operation thereof, and the unauthorized user. If it's just you, and by extension your spouse, in the home at almost all time, no problem. A court would also recognize that an adult child with no criminal or mental illness history or a good friend of similar good standing would be someone you would reasonably trust to have in your home and isn't likely to hold you liable for an unsecured firearm. On the other hand, if you have grandchildren or nephews and nieces over, hold frequent house parties, or otherwise expose an unsecured firearm to theft or misuse by people who absolutely shouldn't have access to it (minors, felons, etc.) or to people you don't really know all that well (as can easily happen with party guests or even extended family, especially in-laws or 'significant others' of relatives), you could find yourself on the hook for it.
What this all boils down to is that you need to think ahead and do the right thing. Mostly it's just common sense, and this is one of the first things the police consider when deciding whether to arrest and charge someone. If you end up in front of a judge and jury, they'll look at whether you exercised common sense in something like this. Most of the time, if you did, you won't be there in the first place.
Witchking: While I did not vote for POTUS, and I dislike the other two for their views immensely, because they are narrow minded and selfserving while not really dealing with the problem that actually exists. Just because they do not agree with you does not make them traitors.
And Yes I agree with the belief that liberals want it so that "only the criminals will have guns", and at that point they will blame "former" gun owners rather then own up to their own actions and mistakes, still does not make them traitors.
@ Innkeeper
Kudos, good one, "they know what is best for you"
@82AA, Innkeeper, Et. Al.
Just one thing, I am born with my Rights, as in "Endowed by my Creator", we all are. We need to quit thinking of the Constitution as creating or "giving, granting or otherwise guarantying" our Rights. The only thing the Constitution did was create the Federal Government, place limits upon that government, and establish a Treaty among the Sovereign States. It did not create a Nation, it created a Republic. The only way to "guarantee our Rights, is remaining an armed Citizenry. I am a Citizen, not a Subject like the Liberals.
@ rgsdca1965
Ditto, These stories are tragic. The unfortunate thing is, it is still part of the human condition. And I believe since Cane and Able, people have been trying to figure out how to stop it.
And to the right-minded people here, remember to vote up those you agree with. Or add a Kudos or a Ditto as a comment.
DeeDeeDee
Hmmmmmm,
Did you also find reliable data about the laws for self-defense protects the criminal more than the victim? Did you know that if someone is breaking into your home and you shoot him in the doorway and he/she falls backwards outside your house you will be charged with a crime? Did your reliable data tell you that if you find someone assaulting or raping your family and they run beyond your property line and you shoot them you will be charged with a crime?
Do you think criminals are so concerned about how they use their weapons?
I doubt it.
Our criminal and corrupt justice system protects the criminal more than the victims.
This is why We The People will never allow our right to bear arms, any and all arms, to be infringed.
On the contrary. It proves that the vast majority of Americans are responsible gun owners. Now if you can just get the criminals you love to protect to be as responsible we won’t have any more problems.
But then again they probably wouldn’t be criminals then would they?
innkeeper--
"And Yes I agree with the belief that liberals want it so that "only the criminals will have guns",
Do you actually believe that? Really? Then it's no wonder nothing constructive gets done in this country.
Theo: That is because some groups do not want any real comprimise, they want it their way and only their way and they are willing to bully anyone it takes to get it, and unfortunately these are the people you see pushing the gun control issue. They do not want to enforce the laws they already have on the books they just want to make more. They do not want to deal with the real issue, not the guns but the "PEOPLE" who are commiting these crimes. They would rather deny what the problems are and they keep shuffleing peoples attention away from what matters. Gun controls is not the problem, violent crimes commited by people are, the sad state of our economy is an issue, the sad state of our whole country is an issue.
the "left" blames the "right" for being narrow minded and only seeing one side of the issue, while they themselves are just as guilty. these crimes sparking this controversy are an important issue, but our gov't is useing it to keep America of asking why they are not fixing the issue that was on top of everyones agenda in Nov. "our economy and the fact it is going nowhere". I have personally gone without pay several times on my last tour in theater because neither side would comprimise, but it did not make me stop my work , because I made a promise. I was angry not at the left, or the right, but at the "Whole". They made a Huge issue of the economy at election time and leading up to it, but now when it is time for them to own up to it and make fixing it the main goal , like a magician they wiggle their fingers and wave some other"big problem" in our faces and want to addreess only that, sounds like a "bait and switch" to me.
They have already admitted none of the new laws will probably affect the problem we face, and they are right, for two reasons, first because they do not enforce the laws they already have on the books.Second, because the Guns are not the problem, it is the people commiting the crimes that are the problem. And not just the problem for murders, but the problem for drugs, theft, assault, and so many other crimes against the Good, Decent people of America. But rather then demand they deal with the issues one side wants to only "enact" more useless laws.
Yes I believe that absolutely nothing will get done by our useless leaders from both sides, and I for one am tired of comprimising my beleifs for people who are unwilling to do the same for me.
Time for someone else to make the first comprimise as for my rights and beliefs....."Molon Labe".
And as for you Mr #'s:
How many of the contributors are paid to comment by the NRA or some other right wing advocacy group? Lies and more lies about someone coming to take away their firearms. The politics of fear and manufactured paranoia.
You may sell your honor and from your post probably pretty cheaply, but do not impinge those who know the true meaning of the word.
European culture does not emphasize on violence.
Obama to NBC news "Could you please run some teary stories on gun violence to support my anti-gun agenda"
NBC news "Of course, your Majesty, your wish is our command".
How to stop the gun violence? How about keeping the felons who use them behind bars...where they belong.
Even the cost of incarceration pales next to the costs to society in terms of property, bodily and emotional damage caused by a single violent felon in one year's time.
My Glock saved my life as well as my 10 year-old daughter. I started my software company in Miami several years ago. I thought I was doing a good thing my opening my office in a depressed part of the city. Wrong. One night while stopping there to pick up some papers, some subhuman all pumped up on crack or something jumped us as we got out of my car. I plugged this idiot right in the chest with my semi-automatic Glock and believe it or not, this clown actually ran away. The cops said he proabably fell into a canal and was eaten by gators. I was given a medal. The cops love it when we help them out and defend ourselves.
I have since moved my company to ritzy, safe Boca Raton, FL.
A police report here in South Florida recently said that since so many Floridians are armed and trained, violent crime is plummeting. The bad guys are now afraid of the good guys. How come liberal MSNBC does mention this? Hmmmm....
Somebody earlier mentioned high capacity clips, they were not used here because these were single deaths, In mass shootings they are used. I also agree with the person that said if your a gun you are liable for it. If it is in a night stand drawer and it is stolen or taken out by one of your kids or friends and some one is injured you should be held partially responsible for it. If it is locked up in a gun safe or other secure spot and then is stolen and used in a crime you should not. If your kids have the combination to your gun safe or have access to the gun or guns, yes you should be liable. The 2nd amendment was for protection of the settlers and for hunting not to have around as a toy or to see who has the biggest or baddest one.
NBCNews is so full of SH!T. In yesterday's article they stated that there were no statistics that tracked the number of suicides by firearms. Then they also stated that there were twice as many suicides by guns than homicides. Where did they get their on suicides by guns if nobody is tracking it? And why aren't all of the media reporting the number of suicides. For example, since Chicago had over 500 homicides last year that would mean there were over 1000 suicides. Also, Detroit had a homicide for every 1719 people in the city. That would mean there was one suicide for every 860 people. Why aren't we hearing about that suicide rate? Pretty soon Detroit will be a ghost town - those that aren't killed by each other will kill themselves.
What do you expect from NBCSnooze? Tonight the messiah is going to preach during his tent revival about the evils of guns. This article is nothing more than a pep rally to get his supporters excited enough to watch.
"....not a statistically valid sample." And there it is. Maybe it should read, "this is pure propaganda and is meant to prey on the emotions of the ill informed." I noticed something left out of this article...strategically it would seem. The GANG involvement. All of those stories screamed gang activity, but one. It seems the only thing we are unwilling to regulate is gang activity...possibly because it serves a purpose. Let it run wild, and focus only on the guns. It's not a new concept. Something similar was tried with Operation Gunwalker. Let the drug gangs run amok, and point only to the firearms. The end doesn't justify the the means...it is wrong, maybe a little evil as well.
Kudos to you, Bobster...and to Mr. Glock.
My own brother was attacked by a guy who tried to steal a car from my brother's drvieway in central Florida. My brother and the thug exchanged fire and my brother managed to wound the guy and hold him until the police arrived. Thug-boy's family tried to talk my brother out of pressing charges because he was "only eighteen". His gang pals tried to intimidate my brother by shooting through his front door.
It didn't work.
Thug-boy is now serving 20 years and I wake up every morning with a smile knowing he won't be able to bother anyone for a long time.
mike-2598123, #1.26-Rushing-rushing-rushing this morning and can't get back to this Article and comments until later, but just wanted to take this one quick moment to ask: "Can't Criminals get Guns if they go to a Gun Show and purchase?" (not being facetious, but seriously asking, because I don't know the answer!:)
Also, I had just written down the number, not the name yet, for later, but post #1.13 is EXCELLENT!!!!!
And what a stunning Article!!!! It's going to be so refreshing to come back to it, (and the comments), later! GOTTA GO!
All the media outlets are just doin' their jobs. Propaganda at its finest...
I'm so sick of the misleading terms "gun violence" or "gun victim".
There has never been a gun victim in the history of guns. There are victims of evil people, or crazy people, or greedy people, or extremist people. A gun has never attacked anyone.
How many people have died in cars? Has anyone ever used the term "car victim"? Not that I've heard. They're "accident victims". We refer to the cause of their death. An accident. Not a car.
The kids in Newtown were "psychopath victims". A nut job was the cause of their death.
While I truly feel for these families, so-called gun control will not solve the problem. Those with evil intent will always be able to get their hands on firearms. As I have noted before, my husband and I both own several guns and have permits to carry concealed. We have no children and no intention of having any so our guns are within reach shall we need them. If my niece comes over, we lock them up tight. Many gun owners are quite educated on all the ins and outs of gun safety.
And as far as not showcasing stories here on MSNBC of law abiding gun owners whose guns saved their lives, I can say that there are many stories here in Texas of gun owners saving their own lives and that of their families. Also, one final thing.
Several years ago a police officer, not in uniform, was leaving her apartment to go to work. She was ambushed by two men as she got in her car, one toting a gun. Thanks to her quick thinking and training skills, she was able to grab her piece and shoot and kill one of the scumbags and severely injure the other one. She'd surely be dead had she not had her gun with her and her wits about her. Look it up in the Houston Chronicle archives. Guns ARE NOT THE ISSUE.
How about some of the defense stories from msnbchit where lives were saved by guns, like my daughter who was attacked 3 weeks ago on Sat. night by a POS knife weilding thug. She pulled her 45 with 14 (not 10) round magazine out and one look sent him running. She was completely unharmed thanks to her weapon. Or, the punks who were terrorizing our neighborhood until they saw me pull a new AR15 out of my truck. I haven't had any trouble from them in over 2 years now. So, up yours, msnbc you can take your BS gun laws and bans and shove them where the sun don't shine then crawl a little further up in obummer's rump. My daughter is safe and I WILL KEEP MY WEAPONS!!!! OH BTW, there wasn't a single shot fired.
Thank God your daughter had that piece with her and is now safe. And you no longer have bottom feeders terrorizing your neighborhood. And yep, I have a high capacity 9mm that Obama wants to have outlawed. If I am home alone, and someone busts down my door or if I am out and about, I want to know that I have more than enough ammo to defend myself. I'm sure that thug who wanted to hurt your daughter never even imagined she'd have a gun on her. Nor would they imagine a little lady like me carrying a piece on her. I live in a great neighborhood but I feel better knowing I can defend myself if need be. And in both your cases, no shots were fired. Totally agree with you about Barry.
Thanks, Olivia. Glad to hear you too are "in the know" Hope you never need your 9mm, but it is far better to have and not ever need than to need and not have. Both of my daughters, my wife, and I carry at all times. out of about 25 families around here, the punks are now terrorizing the two or three families that don't believe in guns. "Keep on Packin"!
I have an idea, but I am not sure it is a good one... what are you thoughts?
EVERYONE HERE WHO IS ABLE TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES LISTEN UP...
Lets all just close our accounts here on MSN... lets stop wasting our energy and time trying to awaken people who DO NOT WANT TO WAKE UP...
THEY WANT TO STAY IN THE MATRIX...
We have warned them and tried to wake them up but they wish to sleep on... fine, let them sleep...
Lets take our efforts elsewhere! spend our time elsewhere... and MSN can sit around with their finger in their nose trying to figure out where 1/2 of their readers went to...
Look elsewhere for real information,
The liberty mill
Info wars
Drudge Report
Hyper Report
SGT
Greatest Truth Never Told
Jsnip4
etc.
listen to all but follow none... Not all these sites are perfect but they contain much more truth than MSN.
Let these guys go! come at this problem from a different conscienceness.
Let me know what you think...
It is interesting to suggest that anyone who would disagree with ones stance or the stance of NBC must be paid by the NRA or some other right leaning group. Could the same be said of those who support the current cause of the administration? The practice of marginalizing and vilifying the opinions of others (a trait of both sides) is what has divided the country. A intelligent conversation in this day and age is unexpected. There is enough fear and paranoia to go around and both sides are guilty especially NBC and Fox.
Mystery Rhee @1.82: As a matter of fact criminals can not go to a gun show and buy a gun, it is a federal law that they run a background check andthey actually do that even at gunshows, though the media will not tell you that because it does not follow their agenda. It is also required that if you purchase a handgun at a gun shop you go to your local law enforcement and get the same background check and permits as if you were purchaseing it from the local gunstore. The Dealer at the gunshow still has to file his copies that he gets from you and you still have to return your copies to the Police just as if you bought at the local gun store.
I leave everyone with truth from Mark Twain:
“If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed.”
Mark Twain
"There are laws to protect the freedom of the press's speech, but none that are worth anything to protect the people from the press."
Mark Twain
Innkeeper, a little extra on that. The laws vary from state to state. In Colorado, you do have to pass the NICS check at show but you don't have to get permit from police. The same goes for gun shops. In Tenn, however you do have to get permit from police and pass NICS. In Missouri, you have to pass NICS, but do not have to get permit. You are required to register weapon with police. This registration only asks for type and caliber, (ie, revolver, 38sp.) no serial # or brand. They only want to know that you do have a handgun. There are some loop holes in some states as in estate auctions or consignment auctions, there is no check of any kind unless the auctioneer is a liscensed dealer. When you buy a gun, they will have you pay the owner directly instead of paying the auctioneer. There is a consignment here every Sat. He will sell a gun as a non usable "Wall Hanger". He can make this claim since he doesn't know if the gun works properly or not.For the most part though, you are right on the nail. I am quoting from the last time I checked into these laws and they may have changed since. If I am wrong on any of this, someone please let me know.
HalfCherokee: No your right it does vary from state to state at gunshows about exactly how the purchaser must be checked and or verified, but rather then give 50 different answers for each state, I gave the General rule. The problem is the media and the anti gun people who listen to them is they want everyone to believe that there are no checks and anyone can walk right in and buy guns if they could they would probably even want us to think a 5 year old kid could. They do not want the anti people knowing that there are checks because the law abiding citizens follow the law, when the bad guys do not.Most Gang bangers and criminals who can not get a gun any other way will buy it out of the trunk of some beater from another criminal both of which do not care what it is used for or that it is hot enough to fry an egg, they both know it is to be used for wrong doing, and they just don't care. One day I hope our Gov't will care enough to try and really stop these criminals.
Once again NBC blowing Gun death way out of proportion compared to other unnatural deaths. Yes a sad story but how many were killed in car accidents, overdoses, hospital infections, medical malpractice, heart disease,stabbings, beatings, alcoholism, smoking etc. Are their deaths any less significant? I guess so. People die unnatural deaths and its unfortunate but its never going to stop. They will get strangled, beaten, stabbed etc. These stories are blown way out of proportion to make it look like its happening all over and in every neighborhood. Look around folks its not. Your getting sold a big fat lie by the media. Its time time find an independant media that just reports facts no bias like NBC's progressive/communist talking points they like to spew. Most gun deaths are gang related in a very, very small proportionate area. 99.99 % of the people will never be effected by it. People are tired of this story. NBC and our King are helping sell more guns and ammo then ever before people who never thought of buyings guns are now doing so. (Makes me wonder if they have stock in these companies. hmm) Face we like our guns in this country and they are not going away. Freedom isnt free. Our Queen (Biden) even said today they are trying to use the media to sell it but guess what people arent buying it and are sick of it. This already starting to backfire but they cant see it.
i listen to a scanner almost everyday.right near a major metro area.i hear what is actually happening and its NOT the MSNBC version of life.just accounts of stupid people being stupid. no slaughterfests as they want you to think is happening.
Rather than repost, scroll up to post #1.83...
Why are you treating each of the 91 as a victim to gun violence? Some where a victim of their own doing so no crime was committed. Some deaths may have saved others where is your reporting on that? Out of the 91 how many died needlessly?
Confussed...Why would you even bother to ask NBC a question like that?....they have an agenda, and its not to save the constitution...
CoyoteHunter - you are right !
The Liberal agenda is to get enough sympathy from enough people to eventually repeal the 2nd Amendment.
No matter what they say, THAT is their goal !!!
Come next election in 2014, vote GOP - get rid of Democrats and stop this B.S. !!
I'm doing my part and just joined the NRA. I'll be shopping for a firearm soon.
Do your part and join the NRA.
Your intelligence and title are typical of the NRA gun nut types. Hey, why not, it shoots, it kills other living forms so easily, must be good for me. How many people were saved by "guns". 91 deaths is not enough. Let me know if it gets to a thousand. What about drunk drivers. What about food disease. is MSNBC on an agenda.
Why don't they print stories about Pandas, they're so cute, and it's more relevant. Give us a break, we need assault weapons, might have to overthrow the government at anytime. Guns, more guns, give us our guns, America is getting safer because of them, can't you see.
Stopbs, that's the most stupid thing I have ever heard. Lib spew at it's finest.
Well, if you'd care to read the stats, that's exactly what has happened in the last twenty years. This country is awash in guns. Over 12.5 million purchased this past year alone and guess what. Violent crime is down. For those of you complaining about how many guns there are, the best salesman I have ever seen since Bill Clinton is, you guessed it, Barack Obama. The problem is, with all the panic buying he has caused, I am sure we are going to see an uptick in accidental shootings since at least some percentage of these new purchasers will not go seek competent gun safety and instruction.
Worm meat
If you have not done so already, get a gun safety course. (That is if you are novice) And get some gun knowledge, calibers, casings, the 3 'P' primer, propellant, and projectile, ballistics, types of "actions" double action pistol, slide (pump), bolt, auto-loader, etc.
Good Lord, times have changed. I was at a gun show a couple weekends ago, and the number of novices, and the ignorance displayed was just a little more than unnerving. It used to be I could go to a show walk around, and visit with vendors and visitors, picking brains, and getting bits of useful info.
I have never seen so many people at a gun show. All driven by this media frenzy. I hate to say it, but I think we are in for a significant increase in accidental shootings, from all these noobies wanting to try out their new "Toy".
Obama will parade gun victims or their families in front of the country tonight to help sell his gun control proposal. exploiting these victims to sell his proposal seems to be fine yet the NRA's mention of Obama's family is off limits ? Obama had school aged children in front of congress a few weeks ago yet mention of his kids is off limits ? His sensationalism of a sensitive issue is disgusting. What a shame that both sides of the gun control issue won't be equally presented tonight. Its sad that such a double standard exists with regard to this issue. This is politics at its best and its disgusting. what's worse is many Americans are dumb enough to buy into it. where is the equal time for the other side of the story. Its a shame that complacency in this country allows this crap to happen.
Jim, no, one death is not less significant than others. And the other subjects you mention are ones we've reported on. (Society has made a lot of effort in the past 50 years on motor vehicle accidents, for example, with safer cars, seat belt laws, MADD, etc.) I trust that tomorrow when we write about breast cancer, you'll post a comment wondering how many people die from gun deaths or heart disease.
Or perhaps is there something about gun deaths that makes you want to change the subject?
How many lives were saved last weekend because of guns?
Bill, What happened to unbiased reporting...all you clowns do is try to push your agenda which is blatantly obvious with these stories. How 'bout reporting on the other side of the argument once in a while.
I understand NBC's decision to post such a story about shooting victims, as this is now a passionate debate, which generates more hits for the website. What bothers me is that it all seems one sided. I've been on this site reading headlines for a long time and I can't recall any articles that are pro-gun and how they saved someone's life. I know they exist, I've seen them on other news sites. Will we ever see an article of that nature with their pictures and their stories on how they were saved by owning a firearm on NBC?
Wow, I can honestly say I've never see an occurrence of professional trolling before. That's awfully impressive!
Mr. Dedman (ironic name for this series of articles, no?), the only thing that I want to know is when will nbcnews.com start the series of articles spotlighting how many incidents where the presence of a gun deterred a thief, saved a mother, or protected a child. And if you try and say you can't find those articles, then I'll know exactly where you and this corporation stands and I will know, truly, that sensationalism trumps integrity in your office.
Looking forward to the counter-point articles.
Yes please, just a little actual journalism. Present both sides and let the reader choose. Please stop spoon feeding the less intelligent. Here's an idea - treat your readers as if they have half a brain and can form an opinion without your assistance. I know, it's scary because they might not think what you want them to think but I promise you it will be a better place if we actually strive for liberty.
butters-
NBC will not do that, they are owned by the White House and will print what the Obama adm. tells them to print. NBC will continue to stir the gun ban pot as the vote gets closer in DC. They will print things hoping to gain support for the WH. NBC will not print or work on the real problem,,, people and the decaying society we have just as the WH won't. It is all about gun bans.
Or perhaps it's the second gun article at the top of NBC's obviously left leaning news reporting.
Don't change the subject - keep reporting. Put a new gun violence article up tomorrow. If anything, it's making more people want to be gun owners to protect themselves from these genius criminals who will not be affected by any new gun control laws. Law abiding citizens will be affected. Criminals still won't give a crap. The logic behind stories in favor of gun control is *ahem* shot full of holes.
Um Bill, I believe there have been more 'gun stories' in the last month, than the last year combined. Care to challenge that fact ?
Sorry Bill...But you lost your unbiased thinking a long time ago...you guys have gone so far over the line that it will never come back to center....not unless you can clone some of the actual news reporters from the 60's and 70's....you guys thrive on disaster and death, the more there is the better you like it....
NBC is going to beat this dead horse till it stinks, they're planning on running a negative gun story every day this week....
Bill,
Excuse me, but aren't journalists supposed to be neutral?
You, didn't even have a part in this article, at least not according to the byline, and yet you're here trying to incite others.
About 115 people die every day (almost 42000 per year) in vehicle crashes in the United States -- one
death every 13 minutes, but you don't hear anyone wanting to outlaw autos. Autos don't kill, it's the careless drivers that cause the majority of the crashes. If we outlawed everything that takes human life, we wouldn't have anything left.
Going for the cheap shot, huh? I'm not surprised. We have two Americas: those who live in big population centers (New York, especially, is populated with people inclined to think the world revolves around them) and those who live in the rest of the country. You are clueless about the rest of the country, you look down your collective noses at us, and think you have the God-given right (Oooh, there's that word) to impose your views on us. NBC is farther left than Fox is to the right.
There are no guarantees to life, liberty, or happiness, and no amount of Big Brother meddling will change that. The world is, and has always been, tainted by evil. You can't legislate evil out of society. How many times does your kind have to be told before it penetrates? Guns are inanimate objects. Guns do not suddenly jump up and shoot people. "Gun free" zones are ready-made hunting grounds for killers. Apparently you can't deal with that fact. You think posting a sign will cause a miscreant to turn away. You want change? Do something meaningful and find out why our mental health programs, such as they are, are failing so badly.
Hey Bill, how many babies were aborted over the weekend? Anybody care about that?
To be on Bill's side, the article was a moving story about 6 people who were needlessly killed. It was a good story.
You guys know so much about reporting? Get your J degree, rise up the ranks and do some real writing instead of "posting" on a site that few people read. Maybe then you will realize that there are more than one side to any story and that the hundreds of thousands of people who are affected by gun violence have a voice and matter in this debate.
You might also realize that any publication must put their resources in the right place, and the statistics about gun violence (not Obama) show that writing about gun violence makes more sense than writing about self defense, at this time.
For instance, for every (1) time a gun is used in self-defense, a gun is used:
Source: Journal of Trauma, injury, Infection and Critical Care (1998)
Now, the real debate is how to combat gun violence without harming the rights of citizens.
But then, a real debate (aka, talking and listening politely and civilly) is a problem for zealots, isn't it.
@Monkey@Keyboard
Actually, the real debate should center on CRIMINAL control. Unfortunately, it's easier to lambaste an inanimate object and the people that use that object for sport or self defense than it is to actually address the pathetic "criminal justice" system in this country.
However, on second thought the name "criminal justice" is very apropos. The CRIMINALS get the justice and the victim gets...... what exactly? Dead? Beaten? Robbed? Abused by the very system protecting the criminal?
XDm9mm: So what are you proposing, more laws? We already live in one of the most litigious societies in history.
And change from our current court system, as flawed as it is, to what? A dictatorship? You're going down a blind alley because you don't want to discuss and debate, but negate and sideline.
You probably also believe that if needed, we could overrun our government and retake control, a supposed 2nd Amendment tenet. Do you really believe that bullets can overrun the most powerful army in human history?
Would love to hear a discussion on real issues concerning guns.
I for one am sick and tired of seeing the headlines bombarded by anti-gun crap. I even saw on an earlier article about gun deaths a section about a robber that was shot and killed (as if we should be sad). WTH? And this is a bad thing how? One less crook on the street. All these articles make me want to do is buy more guns not get rid of them or propose a ban of them....
Ban Guns because Criminals always obey the laws: Woo Hoo! Sharia Law!
I noted that in a previous article, ( same subject ) that the firearms deaths used to report this item, were from other news articles. If a firearm death occurred during the same period, but was not listed as a news item, it was not included in this report. Thus firearm related crimes in small communities with small newspapers and small populations would predominate in this report. Firearms crimes in large metropolitan areas, which wouldn't report the crimes in the newspapers, would make it appear such crimes were non existent or rare. Take Chicago for instance. From January 1 to February 1, of this year, there were over 50 homicides reported, ( another article on this subject, same news outlet ). That's roughly 1.5 per day. However this news article doesn't show a homicide rate of 1.5 for Chicago. New York City is also lacking. These large populations of people are significant in their lacking of statistics for national political reasons. The homicide statistics should be gleaned from the police departments and not from local news sources, as news sources may have a bias about reporting certain gun activity, be it homicide by youths, or suicides in religious communities.
Monkey@Keyboard
Ummmm how?
I believe the ATF and FBI manages the nation's gun violence records, not newspapers.
And Mr. Way Too Long Name, you're basically saying in your post that the only way to fight people who are proponents of peace is through arming up and thus violence. I would refer to Nazis and such but "Sharia Law" seems to be more the fascists of our day.
I believe they do too. AND they do it unbiasedly. unlike NBC....
Bill
“Society has made a lot of effort in the past 50 years on motor vehicle accidents, for example, with safer cars, seat belt laws, MADD, etc.”
This article is biased journalism at its best. In the past 20 years there has been a substantial rise in school shootings/ mass shootings. This rise has been the catalyst for new gun legislation. If the MSM and politicians were really interested in decreasing this amount, they would look at the root causes of the problem and address it. Rather they focus on pushing their own agenda.
The “assault weapons” you seek to ban have been around for over a hundred years. The AR-15 and 30 round magazines have been available to the public since the 60s. You could get them through a mail order catalog with no background check. Yet, the rise in school/ mass shootings occurred in the 90’s. Additionally, most gun related murder occurs in impoverished inner city areas with hand guns that are illegally acquired (by laws that exist now).
Why don’t you focus on addressing mental health, societal decay in inner cities, prosecuting straw purchases/ illegal firearm ownership, and cracking down on gang activity? Why is it that you want to ban law abiding citizens from owning and transferring semiautomatic firearms? Please show me some empirical evidence that confirms that semiautomatic firearms are the root of the problem… the silence is deafening.
Ban Guns because Criminals always obey the laws
They? Being the mullahs from Iran and Taliban and other proponents of Sharia Law?
What in the name of God are you talking about? (Get it! Get the pun?! Sharia Law! God! Wow. That is funny. Wooh. You guys are a hoot.)
Dont they have other things to report on and research. How about some of the good. What about the lives that are saved cause a good guy had a gun and used it to protect himself or herself????? Stop blaming guns for deaths.
So SDm9mm, unless you've perfected pre-crime enforcement, you have no effective means of making a dent in gun crimes. Nobody is a criminal until AFTER they've pulled the trigger. Got any other solutions?
@Bill Dedman "And the other subjects you mention are ones we've reported on. (Society has made a lot of effort in the past 50 years on motor vehicle accidents, for example, with safer cars, seat belt laws, MADD, etc.)"
Yet the number of deaths by a "tool" used for transportation is greater then the number of deaths attributed to a "tool" used for defense. How many lives could we save by lowering the speed limits, reducing the amount of energy involved, reducing stopping distances, increasing the time to react to road hazards, etc.. We would even save gas and reduce emissions too. That would be to simple now wouldn't it?
WTF can you not have 1 or 2 articles a day about that? Getting really tired of all these pointless articles EACH AND EVERY SINGLE DAY. I really want to care, but due to how much you are shoving it down my throat all the time it wants to make me gag. If only guns did not get used for self-defense. If only criminals and gangs did not deal in illegal goods ALL THE TIME. If only we were the only country that produced guns. Talk about stupid.
How many of these deaths were due to "mass" shootings btw? Not a single one huh? What is banning semi-automatic weapons and 20-30 round mags going to do again? Not much at all.
@monkey "For instance, for every (1) time a gun is used in self-defense, a gun is used:
Source: Journal of Trauma, injury, Infection and Critical Care (1998)"
Gee what was the murder rate back then? Has it not dropped since then by a LARGE amount. Maybe get some "new", "current" data perhaps? Take out the suicides too since people can find other ways that are not very painful. I do agree with some better training programs however to reduce the unintentional ones since it is a deadly tool and should come with some instruction since not everyone is raised in a "gun" family.
Unfortunately, I think the issue stems from a much larger problem that likes to resurface from time to time in the notion that gun control will solve the underlying issues of a broken system that practically promotes drug use and gang affiliation. Not too many years ago people were embarrased to be on welfare or food stamps. Now its a subsidy that is abused. People are having more kids in poverty and drug riddled, broken homes to get more money. How disgusting. Guess what, they're the same people who are committing crimes and definately voting liberal to get more handouts. Do yourself a favor and study some world history and throw in some sociology and make informed decisions. Bill's comments would be arguable if it weren't that this was not a topic a few months ago and that now it is jumping all over the liberal bandwagon. I wouldn't expect anything less from NBC though as they do whatever the left tells them to do and as far as MSN reprinting these every day, well it's getting old too. What a shame to think that there is no more unbiased reporting these days. Everything is connected to and dictated by politics. Think I'll see what the Google homepage is promoting today.
hey Bill Dedman...Why don't ya do a story bout...all the people that weren't killed ,raped or kidnaped ...because criminals are afraid of being shot by a armed public...or is that against your employers corporate agenda...
noone seems to recognize the FACT that gun violence has DECLINED in the last twenty years,huh? let's all move emotionally, following this biased news sources agenda,no? what they will NEVER REPORT is that the gun violence in this country is mostly commited by gangs, how about that Bill? and you others...how is enforcement of existing laws NOT ON THE TABLE? we already have less violence...so how would enforcement of EXISTING laws NOT BE EFFECTIVE? when i was working in boston 28 years ago there were about 5-6 drive-bys' every day,but there was only one a week reported by "the press"( I assume noone would've wanted to go to boston if they knew it was so dangerous,seems they kept quiet then for financial reasons)and those were the ones I HEARD PEOPLE, not the ones reported(can discern the revving engines and the gunshots to be a drive by without seeing them)we just used to "hit the deck" and hope for the best. It is nothing like that anymore but yet we NEED GUN CONTROL? CAN YOU SAY AGENDA?
Bill how many of these deaths are contributed to copycat killing based off of media reporting? Do you feel guilt enough to stop the glamorization of murder with guns and assisting the mentally ill with a vhicle for fame?
More than were taken via murder...hence why you got crickets from Bill.
And calling suicide "gun violence" seems a bit disingenuous. Bridge jumpers and people who shoot themselves in the head or heart are not crying for attention...they wanted to die and would have died without the gun most likely. Any psychologist (or 1st year Psych student) will tell you that, if they are worth a damn.
ProIndividual-3906907: And ignoring that guns take more lives than all methods combined is equally disingenuous.
Monkey "guns take more lives than all methods combined" Source please.......this I have never heard......more than accidents, car wrecks, medical malpractice, hammers, knives, clubs, and so on....... I really find that hard to believe....... so you show me your source for this.......then maybe you will have some credibility here
Bill,
The media, your network included, is VERY biased. I'd like to see some more UNBIASED reporting. How about six stories of how guns SAVED someone? If you want to release an article like this, release one supporting the other side as well. No law should be made out of ignorance. People are getting bombarded with horrific gun stories, and are getting NO stories on how guns are used for good as well!
As a rape victim, I am very adamant about keeping my handgun. I'm a young woman who knows what it feels like to be completely helpless, alone, and afraid. No one saved me, I have to rely on myself for protection. The best way to do that? A GUN. No matter how large a man is, how strong he is, I am confident my 9MM will take him down, no problem.
Can you please start looking at this issue from BOTH sides? Taking guns away will not only save lives, it will cost them as well. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Bill, are you saying that society has not made an effort with guns?
The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, various handgun bans, and who can forget the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act. This is all legislation that will have the same results as any new legislation - failure.
Responsible gun owners have gun safes, trigger locks, gun cases, ammunition lockers, and many other ways to keep their guns safe, and, just like cars, deaths still occur. It is tragic, no doubt, but more legislation is not the answer - education is.
Your argument holds no water. You, and the people you work for, are incredibly biased - and I do not see that changing. Now, don't you have a State of the Union Address to attend? I'm sure our president is looking forward to the softball questions that you and other media members will be lobbing at him.
Dang these gun nuts love flooding liberal forums, that they love to complain about. Wish they would just stick to the fox boards. The paper-thin arguments, from abortion, to car accidents are too laughable to take seriously.
It's really not that black and white. Guns and gun nuts are the problem. As long as there are both, there will always be a problem.
It's kinda like saying if there was no alcohol there wouldn't be drunk drivers, but there would still be accidents. But at least alcohol would be out of the picture. Same can be said for guns here.
No guns? No gun nuts. Maybe we could all just sleep a little easier with our baseball bats and knives.
This is funny. I live outside of Detroit and this is a nightly event. Gun deaths are not on he rise, you're just reporting them all to support your liberal agenda to ban guns.
I know, how silly are these news reporting on common and casual events such as getting killed by guns. The sun rises from the east, the rain falls from the sky, people die from bullets shot by guns.... there is nothing new here... these lives are not worthy of discussion, people die everyday.... move on folks.
See, you agree!
If Dick Cheney goes hunting in the forest, does he his friend come back nick-named "pizza face."
On the rational side, maybe if we report each and every time a person is killed by a gun. Put their picture on the front page of every newspaper, blog, news-website, etc. maybe, just maybe, for one day in America we can have no one killed by a gun. When that happens, maybe we can celebrate. It has not happened yet, but we can always hope.
One death caused anywhere by anyone, for any reason is too many.
Guns have one purpose, to kill.
When guns are no longer used to kill, there is no longer a need for guns.
Bill,
If one death is not less significant than others. then why profile gun deaths only, unless you have an agenda? Dead is dead by what ever means, be it by accident, violence, or suicide, by car. by knife, or rope. At the hands of a stranger, a loved one, or self. All require the human factor. I wish you wouldn't promote the restriction my rights to further your presidents agenda to eventually disarm America.
Dirp,
Get Real, there will always be guns whether legal or illeagal
Yus; there is nothing new here... these lives are not worthy of discussion, people die everyday.... move on folks.
I don't think anybody is of the opinion that peoples lives don't matter. The reality is, that yes..people do die everyday. It is a sad thing, as is any unnatural death. Even if you get your wish to disarm every law abiding citizen out there, criminals will STILL kill people everyday. Evil will still destroy and ruin lives, and no legislation will ever make it go away. The only thing that will change is evil will know they can rape, rob, murder, and terrorize with little if any resistance because you were successful in removing the tool for the average person to defend themself.
You don't want to learn the lessons of creating "Gun Free Zones", but you have enough common sense to know its not a good idea to post one on your own home. You want to create laws, restrictions, and hoops for law abiding folks to jump through, knowing the criminal will never abide by any new laws. You just want to ban "this gun" or "this magazine" for now, but when they don't have any effect, (and they STILL won't) you'll just keep banning. How's this model working for Chicago again? Oh, right...it's because of the surrounding states lax gun laws. If thats the case, why don't the surrounding states have the same Chicago problems?
Let me ask you a question. Two-thirds of gun deaths are suicides. Are you willing to state, for the record, that if guns were banned, that those people would not commit suicide? After all, you said above, " a complete ban and confiscation of all firearms would do much to eliminate gun deaths".
You're right USApeb. All guns should be confiscated and destroyed. Then we don't have to worry about people not abiding by the rules. That won't happen because of gun-nuts and the NRA..Thanks guys.
I can't believe MSNBC continues to be so blatantly one-sided in their coverage. Now we get a "human interest" story about people who were victims of gun violence. For those who might care about hearing both sides of this issue, here are some recent stories about law-abiding citizens using guns non-lethally to protect themselves and their families, friends, and coworkers. All of these stories were published in the last two weeks. You'll never hear about them here, though.
http://www.wcyb.com/news/86-year-old-woman-grabs-gun-in-self-defense/-/14590844/18404728/-/9fdio6z/-/index.html
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=23971590&nid=148&title=man-attempts-to-rob-gas-station-owner-brandishes-pistol&fm=home_page&s_cid=queue-15&fb_source=message
http://www.douglascountysentinel.com/view/full_story/21611314/article-Armed-homeowner-fires-at-suspects-during-burglary?instance=west_ga_news
http://www.kfvs12.com/story/20630957/police-82-year-old-mo-man-shoots-intruder
http://www.wafb.com/story/20752250/homeowner-shoots-armed-burglar-in-the-buttocks
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Homeowner-shoots-alleged-intruder-4251776.php
http://www.click2houston.com/news/Home-invasion-suspect-arrested-after-woman-opens-fire/-/1735978/18331728/-/n9rr8pz/-/index.html
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=23921686&nid=148&title=layton-homeowner-confronts-suspected-burglar-with-gun&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-1
http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/Homeowner-Holds-Alleged-Burglar-at-Gunpoint-189207941.html
http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20130123/news/301239999/man-keeps-intruder-at-bay-with-shotgun-until-police-arrive
http://www.wdaz.com/event/article/id/16052/
http://www.news-star.com/article/20130131/NEWS/130139969
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/55742445-68/shooting-atlanta-police-says.html.csp
The last one is particularly interesting, because it was a student who went to a school and opened fire and was stopped by an armed officer at the school. Who knows how many might have died had that officer not been there? Yet despite the fact that this happened less than two weeks ago, I never heard about it until I went searching for stories.
Dan, thanks for posting the links.
They don't want you to know guns save lives, you'll NEVER see these reported by the media...
Bill... there are a great number more, but you're too self absorbed to even consider anothers point of view.
Funny how I never saw ONE of these on NBC.... Must not be true then.....
Bill,
Don't let them make you even flinch from continuing this much-needed campaign. We will never reach people who are so one-dimensional in their thinking that they cannot consider that there might be a problem here, and that's the real story, isn't it.
As we speak, there are people in gun factories working feverishly to make MORE guns, more POWERFUL guns, FASTER RATE OF FIRE guns, and for what? Sport? Fun? Self defense? Well, the last one might be legit. Self defense from people with MORE guns, more POWERFUL guns, FASTER RATE OF FIRE guns. Where the hell is all this leading us? What kind of people is it turning us into?
Defensive gun uses are reported.
But forget about anecdotes. What do we know?
Well, we know that when a death results from a firearm discharge, the chances are that a murder has occurred and not a justifiable homicide. Like, 20-to1.
Why should the ratios be different, when the result of the firearm discharge is an injury or only an intimidation?
dksouthern go back to drinking your Kool-Aid.....
I'll take the best gun that money can buy if I want to thank you very much. And NO! I'm not thinking of using it for anything but sport but hey, break in to my house and skies the limit....
Yesterday, in the St. Louis metropolitan area (Highland, IL), a woman shot a man during a home invasion. He was demanding money and had her sister in a strangle hold.
Quotes from the article - "I said I'm going to shoot you. Let her go. And he wouldn't let her go he just kept choking her. So I fired a warning shot," said Keeney.
To sum up, he didn't let her go. So she shot him. He's not dead, but he will go to prison. It's absolutely horrible to be robbed, worse when you're actually home when it happens, and infinitely worse to see a loved one in a desperate struggle during the invasion. Shooting another human being is a terrible thing to do, but sometimes, it has to be done. .
dksouthern:
as a matter of fact, those gun factories ARE working harder than ever!!
Would you like to know why? Because now, every liberal news media outlet looks for EVERY shooting in the entire United States to report on to make the problem sound worse and worse. They will play up the stories of the innocent, normal folks to make it hit closer to home for you.
What does that do? Makes people WANT to buy a gun to PROTECT THEMSELVES.
You can actually blame the media for that one bucko... not the gun companies.
I get so sick of the media bashing guns. Thanks for your post. They never will publish these stories. Only the bad guys get their stories told.
dk, Gun tech hasnt really changed. There hasnt been any developments in power or rate of fire in 50 yrs. In fact miltiary style guns bullets are much less powerful today then in WW2. In WW2 we used the M1 Garand which used a 30.06(.30 cal) bullet vastley more powerful then todays .223 caliber bullets. Ar15's and ak's were designed over 50 yrs ago. Handgun bullets have shrunk too mostly 9mm and .40 cal from .45 in WW2. Full auto is very inaccurate especially for the untrained. LA bank robbery bad guys fired 1100 bullets hitting 11 people and killing none. Scary sure but not effective. Guns havent changed much since the begining of WW2 70 yrs ago.
Pay-
I repeat my question from above; where the hell is this leading us, and what kind of people are we becoming? And no, I do not blame the media for reporting this anomaly that has showed up in this country. The gun manufacturer's do, in fact, shoulder much of the blame, and they're not going to change on their own. The people of the US have to force themselves to look at this obsession with violence we've developed and THEY will have to decide if we need more, bigger, faster guns in our society.
This just happened yesterday in my state. Of course this would never make national news, and gun-ban nut-jobs never like hearing how guns can actually HELP people:
www.king5.com/news/local/Homeowner-shoots-intruder-190591971.html
CHEHALIS, Wash - A man who broke into an occupied home early Sunday in Chehalis was shot by the home's owner, the Lewis County Sheriff's Office says.
Bill, that was sarcasm wasnt it?
C'mon Bill....don't jump on the gun-control bandwagon. It just can't work. Be an honest journalist, be different. This story is missing a lot more incidences. Have you ever quit a job for moral reasons? If not this is one you might want to....not because of you but because of them and those like them. Think about it, go to work in the morning and do a Jerry Maguire! Good Luck!
Why do you think it was sarcasm? Are you being sarcastic? I'm not being sarcastic. Really.
Of course there will be legitimate defensive gun uses, and there will always be armed citizens in the US.
But, given that so many armed citizens have no firearms training, given that so many firearms are stolen, given that so many people die and are injured by crazies with firearms, I am just a little surprised to see so little room being given by the pro gun people.
If we have just a few more mass murders, well, you know something is going to get done. Why the hell should we all just accept massacres in movie theaters and massacres in elementary schools, and so much other random gun violence.
What good is having guns if so many people die?
Does anyone here even know, are you safer with a gun or without one? Just about anyone can buy a gun. But should they do that? Who should not buy a gun, even if they can buy one?
Way to go Dan. Thanks for taking the time to find those.
There you go Bill, now you know how to become America's favorite journalist :)
there is LESS gun violence now and ALL OF A SUDDEN we are in CRISIS MODE! HURRY,HURRY,BAN, BAN,what is WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? are you all under 20? does anyone remember the REAL VIOLENCE we had DAILY TWENY YEARS AGO? it has cut in HALF PEOPLE, why the outcry now? AGENDA? we have been stripped of ENOUGH RIGHTS ALREADY! enough of this "gun violence" CRAP, it is just THAT! open your eyes and look at the WHOLE of this violence issue,the only NEW THING are these DRUGS that have been introduced over the last twenty years. how come NOONE is reporting on that?(big pharmas got ya covered) the drug companies are paying too much to our politicians to look down THAT AVENUE!
At this point I see about 740 comments on this story about victims of gun violence. How many of those comments pause for even a moment to express sympathy for the lives lost, or to suggest any ways to bring down the level of violence, before rushing into a political argument? Only a handful at best.
Dan,
Thanks for all the links, here is one more for folks to check out and its a good one!
Here is what they do:
The purpose of this website is to find and post the news stories you will never see on CNN or MSNBC about people who are saved by a responsible citizen with a gun.
http://www.rationalityrebooted.com/
You can also post links or tell them of other gun related stories in where the gun owner was protecting themselves or others. Great site in this day and age where they post the truth and its not one just one sided reporting.
Bill I can't speak for the other 739 commenters here but I say a prayer for each and everyone one I hear about on the news. Not just deaths by guns but by accident, overdose, neglect and abandonment. Anytime I hear about someone losing their life I say a little prayer. I do that because it helps keep me from getting too cynical and even though I am an agnostic it can't hurt. I suspect I am no different than the other 739.
I have read comment after comment on this thread from people offering suggestions for how to bring down the level of violence. Sadly they aren't politically correct and so therefore ignored or belittled as hogwash, lunatic rants, etc... They aren't taken seriously because they might hurt someone's feelings or trample on the rights of criminals.
Seriously, are you so out of touch that you believe the hype of this site?
I don't say that to be rude or disrespectful. I would really like to see, and participate in, a discussion on how to curb violence. Really. The only thing is I don't want to be called a racist and unfortunately that's what happens when anything other than gun restriction is suggested.
Bill the media took the sensitivity out of the story when they headline and preface each story with the word and agenda of GUNS. We all know it's tragic and our words really mean little to those whom it would impact at this point. The story itself really wasn't about the tragedy to begin with or it wouldn't of headlined it the way it did. Where is the writers sympathy for the victims? It was a story about demonizing guns, yes we aren't so stupid as to not understand what the underlying reason for the story really was. You want to see human reaction and sympathy for the story then stop heading it with a controversial subject with an obvious agenda. Maybe deaths due to violent crimes would have been more appropriate.
Bill Dedman
Bill, I would suggest you're being disingenuous at best. You're making an attempt at deflecting attention from the article to another issue. But NBC and some of it's minions do that rather well.
I can't speak for others, but I CAN confirm that in all instances where people have been injured or killed, I have expressed sympathy for those killed and their families, and well wishes for speedy recovery for the injured. OK... I'll admit to expressing no sympathy, but rather thanks to the low life gangbangers killing other low life gangbangers, but that's the way I am. If you live that life style, expect whatever that life style brings you. It was a PERSONAL decision to do what you do.
unoitall, it's not about what resopnse one should have.
But the traditional American way to respond to problems is to try to fix them. Look at automobile deaths, for example: We've done a lot through citizen action (MADD), regulations (NHTSA, new technologies (airbags), and laws (seat belts) to bring down the number of highway traffic deaths. We didn't eliminated them, but we brought them down.
With gun deaths, however, people immediately turn it into a political debate. Some people are so scared that someone will take their guns away, that they can't look at the issue honestly and say, what could we do (through citizen action, regulation, laws, and new technologies) to reduce the number of people who die in homicides, suicides, accidents. If one even raises these issues, you, unoitall, deride that person as a "lemming." How does that help the victims, help bring down the number of deaths?
Well when you post about breast cancer I hope you mention the $ millions raised to fight it and how it has made little dent in actually curing it. And that most of the money raised actually goes to pay for paper pushers and not actual research.
Probably not.
I don't own a gun and have only shot one once (and that was a blank). I don't plan to run out and get a gun but it would be nice if journalists and the media outlet they represent would report on a subject without trying to further an agenda. Why don't you do a report on how many people were not killed because they were able to defend themselves with a gun? I don't know the answer but I'd like to know what it is.
Redhead,
I don't know where you've been for the past fifty or so years, but you might want to re-look at your comment about how little a dent we've made in curing cancer. I've been around for better than 70 years, and I'm here to tell you that you are wrong on every point in your post. Your last sentence is the only part of your little rant that has an element of truth in it.
DKSouthern
There have been great strides in coping with cancer and increasing the length of remission. However, there has been little actual cure of the disease. Most of the medical breakthroughs that make living longer with the disease possible happened before the Pink campaigns or the walks or any other great social professional panhandling took place with regard to cancer.
In 70 years you'd think we could cure one of them but we haven't. Not one, no one ever considers that, not even you.
So that our rights to own guns are preserved, these deaths are justified. Of course if nobody has guns, these people would die of other things too and then we'd be bitching about background checks on samurai sword and the like.
Just so you know, guns in this country is an inevitable cause of death. There is nothing any gun owner in this country would do to change that.
More propaganda.
I don't care if it is propaganda. I am tired of this gun culture of ours and the price we pay for it.
I am too old to leave the country so I will speak out and vote against guns.
What "gun culture"? I own hunting rifles and obey the law. Please tell me how I am part of a "gun culture", because make no mistake, new gun regulations hurt me, not the lawbreakers.
Don why is there more gun violence in Chicago when they have stricter gun laws then the rest of the country? You might be old but I am sure you can figure out that gun laws don't do anything to deter violence. Another Obama agenda that is all it is...
NBC does not care about the violence culture by the criminals in the country they are pushing their own anti-gun agenda.
Don....What is a "gun culture"?....
If you really think about it NBC isn't pushing an agenda or posting propaganda, what they are doing is making money.
They make money for every page view their receive and as long as people keep coming to these stories to post a comment they will keep posting these kinds of stories.
if you really want them to stop reporting on these things all you need to do is stop reading the stories you don't want to read about.
If a visit to this story makes them just 1 cent for each view and it gets 1 million views that is an easy $10,000 so why wouldn't they write a story like this every day? Hell, I'd write 5 of them a day!
Anyway, just my 2 cents.. it would have been 3 cents but NBC got the other 1.
Aussie- you are right on target with the $ thing but they also have an agenda to further. Don-if you are "old" like you say,then you must remember the violence we had in this country twenty years ago,right? you must also know it has declined drastically,right? so i have to ask, why now? it has gotten alot better,so again...WHY NOW?
Mr. Dedman, Perhaps you should not use your position as a journalist to promote a political agenda.
Lisa, no one is promoting a political agenda here. Americans can choose whether or not to take this subject seriously, to see whether or not there are ways to reduce gun violence. There is a healthy political debate in the country right now on that subject. We're saying, these are the people who were killed in violence that weekend, and this is what happened in these incidents. Some commenters -- many commenters -- push back and say, well, what about vehicle accidents, or why are you trying to take my guns away, or other ways to change the subject, instead of focusing on the deaths and saying, that's a lot, that's too many, and what can we do to reduce them. I'm assuming, Lisa, that you fully support the country thinking hard about that topic, paying attention to the victims, looking for ways to reduce the deaths. That's not a political agenda. That's the work we're supposed to do. People can decide on their own, of course, whether or not to pay attention, or to try to deflect, to change the subject.
Why focus on the deaths by guns? Why not report on the lives saved? There are pros and cons to the guns in this country but you choose to only report on the cons. Why? Because you are promoting an agenda rather than a healthy debate. We aren't stupid
So Bill Dedman, if you don't have a political agenda, why are you on here perpetrating this anti-gun agenda and not reporting both sides of this issue like the real journalist used to do. You only report your agenda and you know it. When will you report about the people who weren't victims because they had there own weapons for self defense, when will you report about deaths that could have been prevented if someone had a weapon. NO YOU WON'T do that because everyone here is correct, you and NBC have and agenda, if you don't grow a pair of balls and do some real journalism and report both sides of a story for a change no just your side. Until you do that you're just another HACK pushing your own agenda.
Mr. Dedman, I am sure there are ways to reduce gun violence. I took a class called Introduction to Firearms before learning to shoot. It was mostly about gun safety and the proper use of a firearm. Maybe more people should do the same. A great way to reduce gun violence would be to take them away from the criminals. If you went to a gun range you would see that half of participants are women who feel they need protection. There is a great article on this in today's New York Times.
You can start by locking up criminals who commit violent crimes for life instead of letting them out to commit more crimes.
Bill...You guys in the media NEVER give both sides to any story..much less a gun related one, where has journalism gone? What and how do they teach those young mushheaded students in journalism school?
Bill...
Here's a hint for a really good article.
Do a NATIONAL survey of prosecutors and find out how many, while plea bargaining charges DOWN often throw out the "weapons" charges.
With all due respect, Mr. Dedman, there is not a healthy debate. At least not in the media. Those on the right side of this debate are vilified. They are called crazy, loons, rwnj, they are attacked for wanting to continue the right to protect themselves from a government they increasingly fear.
Your intentions are good, you want to reduce deaths by guns, that's admirable. However, you aren't able to keep the guns out of the hands of bad guys (and bad gals) or out of the hands of crazy people so instead you want to pull guns from law abiding citizens. There is no such thing as trickle down responsibility. Bad guys won't give up their guns.
I applaud you for actually jumping into the comments here but please don't try to tell me it's rain when we both know it's something else running down my back.
XDm9mm: Sounds like an opportunity. Please, do the survey and report your findings in a public journal. I'm sure many would love to hear healthy, intelligent and relevant studies compared to diatribe.
Redhead Ranting: I think you missed the part where he said he is not promoting anything, and if you look at the statistics, the greater weight for publication resources is on gun violence over self defense. Sounds to me that the agenda is your. Now, kindly continue your shower.
Monkey....
Sorry, don't have the time or resources. I was hoping an UNBIASED news organization might actually be interested in delving into the truth. But alas, NBC is not known as unbiased, or beneath doing unethical things like edit 911 tapes, are they.
XDm9mm: Diversions are a nice debate tactic.
The issue on the floor for discussion, however, is gun control, for or against. Not abortion. Not 9/11. Not "King Obama". Gun control.
Care to stick to the debate?
Oh, and I gave you a point for being willing to engage little moderate me. I admire your chutzpah.
@Monkey - just because someone said they don't have an agenda doesn't mean they don't have one, usually it means they do.
It doesn't sound as if you are interested in discussing this issue either or you wouldn't attempt to be so condescending.
Monkey: LOL!? Where did he mention abortion, 9/11, or "King Obama"? He is sticking to the debate. YOU introduced a diversion.
Redhead Ranting
Condescending? When someone returns rhetoric as part of a discussion, you bet I'm going to be condescending. 9/11 has nothing to do with gun control, nor does abortion and car crashes, if you read earlier posts.
It's silly.
What's rude and condescending, in my humble view, is when the gun lobby trades political barbs after human death. It boggles the mind how the gun lobby isn't even remotely interested in the lives of children and innocents, unless that is they are packing heat.
hey monkey,
Many of us are hard working Americans, trying to live day by day, paycheck by paycheck, get home, go to sleep, get back up and work our 2 jobs again.
The media is PAID to do their research, and should be reporting in an UNBIASED way, not a one-sided political way.
It would literally give these writers anxiety attacks if they had to report on both sides.
Don't give someone a hard time because they don't have the time to investigate what they are ASKING Bill and his crew to do... to see it from BOTH sides as a true unbiased reporter.
If they did, it would only be half-a$$, I guarantee.
By the way, Ms. Red, weren't you the one who told the writer?
Condescension much?
To those of you who ask why we don't ban autos, etc., I call your attention to the regulations put on the auto industry over the past 100 years. The reason for this is because it became evident very quickly that autos were capable of killing people, and we could do something about that. It became clear to most people that we were killing way too many with autos and so consumers insisted on all manner of safety devices (which they were willing to pay extra for when they first appeared) and they supported new laws that reduced the number of fatalities, to the point where we're seeing as low a death rate as we have in decades. And guess what? All along there was a segment of the population that screamed and yelled about all these "restrictions" and how they were violating their rights to drive the way they wanted to, and how they were going to put car companies out of business, etc. And in many cases, Detroit fought them tooth and nail as well.
And another "guess what"? By fighting these regulations, the door was opened for the Japanese and Europeans to make inroads into our market they've never given up. The foreign companies were astute and disciplined enough to recognize these improvements were inevitable; they WERE going to happen, so they took advantage of the Americans who "don't let nobody tell us what to do"! Some people call that individualism; I call it being backward. I call it arrogance bordering on a form of insanity, and that is epidemic in our country, and we had better get over it.
So finally, we are catching up in the auto industry to where Ford, GM, and Chrysler are actually becoming pro-active in their R&D, and they're taking back market share. Now let's transfer that scenario over to the gun market.
It is inevitable that the gun market is going to change it's way of doing business, because just like in the auto business, the citizens of the US are saying, "this is unacceptable - It must stop"! Now many of you guys on here are using the same blinded arguments used by those resisting auto regulations, and I'm telling you, you're on the wrong side of history. If you refuse to even consider a rational approach to addressing the issue, the reaction against the gun industry will be much more severe than if they were pro-active as the auto manufacturer's are now. It won't happen all at once, but it WILL happen, because it must happen.
@Monkey
I never brought up 9/11, abortion or car crashes. Yes, I did ask the journalist to treat his readers as if they had half a brain and were capable of thinking for themselves. Is something wrong with that?
i dont see guns and cars as an equal comparison.but the laws reguarding cars and their use have gone to extremes in terms of "safety".now there are proper places in the car to put kids.childseats are mandatory and the derection in which they face.an age requirement on how old a front seat passenger can be.manditory seatbelt use.etc. these are all for "safety". no arguement there.but to want the same people deciding what i can have,where in my house i can have it.what type of criminal i can use it on,how many peices i have to keep it disassembled in.etc.a gun is not a car.its needed quickly most cases,and giving them any leway in determining my safety is absurd.dont think that auto laws are done yet.someday you WILL wear a helmet,no smoking,eating,drinking,etc.all for your safety.the fact is and will always be,people are just stupid.hence, all the safety requirements for cars.you end crime and how people treat each other,THEN talk to me about gun restrictions.
monkey-and you are interested in the children? is that your reason for gun control? PLEASE, you are killing me! you are probaobly for abortion yet you spew about the children? you lose ALL credibility when you debate on one thing using children as your concern while the next breath you are for abortion,do you even see your own duplicity?
dtrx: I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Now, Redhead Ranting, I like you. I think you are smart and compassionate and have a thinking mind. But, you seem to believe that you can alter gun violence without altering gun laws. That is the heart of the issue. While many on this feed HATE to see people being anti-gun, I hate to see people anti-solution.
Yes, we have to support changes in mental illness laws and yes we have to attack poverty, but our free access to ANY gun needs to have some oversight. We register our cars. Why can't we register our guns.
Love to see your insightful comments on this and other feeds. Thumbs up for positive engagement. The Vine needs more people like you.
@Monkey
Appreciate the kind words. Mutual respect all around, dude.
Um, I never said anything about a solution except that we need to rationally discuss it. Personally I have no issue with bans on assault rifles or other high power guns (sorry, I really know very little about guns except what I have seen in Dirty Harry movies). The problem I have is that writing more laws is a silly solution because we don't enforce the ones we already have and because most bad guys don't give a crap about the laws on the books. So by writing and passing more laws you take the guns out of the hands of people who are law abiding.
I get that this makes the lawmakers feel as if they have done something but in reality it just wastes taxpayer money. Writing more laws isn't going to prevent another school shooting.
When the government figures out a way to enforce the current laws we have then we might make a small dent but really the solution lies with better education, better parents, less government and more opportunity.
There are around 8,000 deaths PER day in the US (144,000 in the world) from all causes
What about a breakdown on what all the causes are that give us a tally of 8,000. As a software engineer, after I write code I search for code that does the most work and optimize that. The same pattern could be done, where we look at the cause of the greatest deaths and fix that. 5 gallon buckets filled with liquid kill many children. Hammers kill people and so on. Each death is an individual, each with their own story. But there is evil in this world which will kill others regardless of the weapon of choice, that is the true cause of many deaths - evil people.
Don't even try to hide your agenda NBC News. No wonder people don't trust the media.
Thank you Bill Dedman and thank you NBC for have the courage and the moral compass to put faces and personalities to victims of gun violence.
They are painful to look at. No matter what the circumstance of the shooting, it should not have happened. Well, let me revise that. Liebrichs may well have made a sane, conscious choice in what they did. Main St Medicine keeps people alive but it can't give them life.
I strongly believe in the 2d Amendment. I just as strong believe we need far stricter regulations on guns, who can own them and what sort.
What is it about the reality of our lives that most don't seem to get? You have to follow the teachings of Christ, pure and simple. You have to control your inner demons and ahole natural tendencies or pay the price. Everything that people do is going to come home to them sooner or later, no escape. The ones that love will find peace and heaven in the end. The ones that hate and hurt, will keep this torture in their very soul through eternity. There is no fires or a devil with a pitchfork like on cartoons. There is one important commandment and that is to love one another. It is something commanded, not something that comes naturally to most. If people were taught compassion, they would not consider hurting someone else and not just because only demented weasels act evil, but they would know in their soul if they wouldn't want someone to do something to them, not to do it to someone else. I don't even think I do feel sorry for anyone stupid and evil enough to go to hell anymore. Not when they would take someone's life for a few dollars or kill another out of jealousy, etc. Most do commit these crimes from pure hatred, not because they want the couple dollars for their booze or crack. Suffice to say you are either for God or against Him. I'm a firm believer in not trusting anyone, keep your eyes open and don't hesitate to defend yourself, to the death if necessary. These kinds of people are obviously not raised in love or in the Word. Mothers, love your children before it's too late!
ok, crazy.
This is news, how? People die everyday, none of them matter to us.
As everyone pointed out, if they don't get killed by guns, they will be killed by another thing. Guns = knives = baseball bat = shovels = frying pans = cars = fertilizers ....... oh so much things in the world that can kill, how unfair it is to single out gun as the problem and threaten us the rightful gun owners. Do you know what we can do to you with our guns????
Why not list the deaths by motor vehicles? Why not list the boys molested by the Catholic Church? Yes some deaths are less significant then others. A gang bangers life is not equal to a victims life anyway you care to measure it.
Bob, you might want to renew your newspaper subscription. Every day my paper has a full article on all the auto accidents the previous day, and sometimes they don't even involve deaths. And I don't know how you could possible miss all the news about the Catholic pedophiles. How about Jerry Sandusky? have you heard of him? Guess what? Many of my relatives and friends who went to Penn State are screaming about how the "media" is blowing that all out of proportion. I guess people only want to hear what benefits their point of view.
Gee, when will this liberal media with a liberal agenda tell the stories of those people who have defended their own lives with the "weapons" they own, this is a 2 way street and the liberals are trying to make it a one way street.
Fox News is just a click away.
Please. Enjoy. Give them some ad revenue.
Jody-
Don't forget to turn off your brain before you switch to Fox.
This is what happens when people lack the journalistic skill to have their work stand on its own. They must rely on the latest, shocking item to carry the load and make up for their poor journalism.
What? Are you a Pulitzer-Prize winning author? Professor of English at Yale?
Excuse me while I roll my eyes.
How about the "faces" behind the shootings? My guess is you won't find too many NRA members there. Perhaps we should crackdown on the people that commit these crimes, as opposed to cracking down on responsible gun owners. This might upset the liberal voting base, but we need to stop the violence, right?
How long are we going to be subjected to pictures of victims? We get it already!!!! The question is what logical measures are going to be taken by those who can actually make a difference. This constant diet of faces of those who were killed by a gun is not going to make the problem go away. Instead, it is going to simply divide Americans once again. We are already divided by race, sex, class and religion. Now we are being divided by the 2nd Amendment. This is a shame since after it is all said and done, it will do absolutely nothing to correct this problem! God bless America!!!
I am curious how everybody feels about 1000's and 1000's of New Guns being cranked out and sold every day to a Nation that has 300,000,000 odd already on the street
Does that tie in naturally with "free market capitalism" and whatever the market will bear? Trickle down maybe? To what? Criminals and Mentally impaired? I think America has bourne enough already, as evidenced by the sadness and shame its brought on our Country, shown in graphic detail and color here in this piece, BRAVO
We need tougher enforcement, period
Obama is the best gun salesman the world has ever seen. Maybe NBC will show the faces of the criminals who commit these crimes.
I'm curious Mr. Johnson. What would showing the faces prove?
Tougher enforcement of what? The current firearm laws? Tougher enforcement of criminal sentences? Tougher enforcement of immigration laws? Tougher enforcement on repeat offenders?
Manufacterers of any product will comply with the laws of supply and demand, if the demand is high supplers will increase production and new supplers start up. The product is legal for sale to law-abiding citizens and is not legal for sale to criminals, that's the current law.
Don't talk to me about the "sadness and shame" this country bares, our government has commited numerous acts on foreign soil that we should hang our heads in shame to the tune of hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths. But that's another topic.
It's fine for nbc to cover all of these terrible shootings, but why is the reporting slanted in such a way as to make it a gun control problem. Some of these were accidents, some done on purpose. The shootings or some just like them would have taken place regardless. While I don't think control is the answer, I do think that some of the issues out there might help. Having said that, I think that first and formost if you comment a murder using a handgun you should pay the penalty of death. The sob sisters out there and the do gooders don't like that, but thats tough. While it might not at first stop the shootings I'd be willing to bet that over a period of time it would slow them down. At the very least it would take a scumbag off the streets for good. We need to stop being so wishy washy when it comes to dealing with these people. I'll leave the floor to you other talking heads now and I'm sure the comments will be blistering but I've said my piece and that's that.
It's fine for nbc to cover all of these terrible shootings, but why is the reporting slanted in such a way as to make it a gun control problem.
I'm getting the feeling gun control advocates are paying NBC journalist to write these articles at a slant and for their agendas.
Heartbreaking. Completely heartbreaking. Our country has utterly lost its way.
Yes, we have a society that has gone down the toilet. There is little respect for others, the attitude of,"what can I get for free". Gangs rule neighborhoods and the list could go on.
But what are we focusing on,,,, guns, how stupid. Lets focus on the real problem, People. Guns do not jump out of the case and run off and shoot someone. A person has to take it and pull the trigger, focus on the people. But, that would be hard, making new laws that none of the crooks will follow anyway is the easy way out and will do nothing. Example,,, Chicago.
GET THE NRA out of our government , we did NOT elect them.
Register ALL GUNS and OWNERS.
HOLD ALL parties responsible for all actions the GUNS is used , Including the Manufacture .
Close ALL Loop Holes -
Provide the ATF with the data and support to enforce the LAWS.
Yes , you can keep your GUNS - BUT you Better make sure they are Legal - LOCKED and Stored - because if they get picked up by your cousin and used to hurt someone , YOU can go to Jail with him
pbGR, the NRA isn't in the gov't, you must have failed in school, if you want them out of gov't make sure that you ensure the liberals get all of the "GREEN" industries out of gov't and get all of the media out of the gov't etc etc etc, and until you know what your talking about you probably shouldn't post and let us know that you are not that bright. Yes everyone who buys a gun should go through a background check but the rest of your comments about the NRA are asinine, and no I don't belong to them as I think they are stupid.
And if your cousin picks up a knife from YOUR kitchen and kills someone, you are willing to submit yourself to the same punishment. .......Yeah, that's what I thought.
pbGR should the car manufactuers be held to the same standards as guns since motor vehicle crashes kill and maim more people then guns?
@pbGR
Would you care to explain exactly what part of
"........shall not be infringed." is so difficult for you to understand?
@pbGR-
Just to let you know how much this really matters to this administration.
Obama has nominated B. Todd Jones, the former US attorney in Minnesota, to head the ATF, a controversial appointment for a controversial agency at a controversial time. A political nominee at the ATF is liable to ignore the real problem of gang violence and instead begin using the ATF as a political tool for going after the arms industry and legal gun owners.
Without groups like the NRA, you would most likely have no 2nd or 1st Amendment by now. Because without the 2nd, the 1st is doomed.
Hold all parties accountable?? really?
Lets extend your rant out fully, someone breaks into your LOCKED home and steals an item that is then used in a crime, so then by your logic you are both the victim of a crime as well as the guilty party in another. Someone steals your car and uses it as a getaway car in a bank robbery, you now go to jail for bank robbery.
Your logic is astounding for a citizen in a free country.
all hard surfaces on earth should be covered in foam rubber.all sharp edges should be filed down.NERF should be the only building product used.even if you childproof earth,people will still be a..holes.its a people problem.
How bout get progressives out of the government and get rid of that cancer for good.
@ ANYONE who wants to take ANY of my RIGHTS away as an american citizen you obviously dont belong here!!! Please see your way to any other country and leave me and the others to OUR RIGHTS as US Citizens!!! If you require assistance, please find the nearest armed citizen and they will kindly escort you!!!! From there you are on your own!!
I would like to THANK everyone fighting to keep OUR RIGHTS and America the GREATEST FREE COUNTRY ON EARTH!!!
Typical liberal media...always one sided...How about showing all the lives saved by guns?...Won't show that, will you , nbc (national communist network)
Remove the NRA lobbyist, then all lobbyist should be removed. Register the owned firearms? This will give a tyrant the go ahead later to remove them. After removal of firearms, the next step is to remove freedom of speech, then control the media. If this is not enough, the government will then execute it citizens who speak out against them. History dictates to rule over a country and enslave it people you must first disarm them. I am not stating the present wants to go to this extreme, however, if we do not stand for the entire bill of rights and our liberties, we position the future generations to have them removed, then enslaved.
A small percentage of people are the problem 1:1000000 or more depending on the population. To attempt to remove or regulate firearms, who do you think will follow the law? Lets get real, Prohibition does not reduce crime, it regulates the law abiding only. A criminal by the very definition will still commit these atrocities, and will find alternative was to commit them as well. Liberty will ensure safety, not the other way around. If you really want to reduce violence, enforce the current laws on the books and make some mandatory time for crimes where firearms are used in criminal activity. An armed citizen has every right to defend themselves.
That said, proper tools for the proper job should be employed. AR15 style rifles are good for defense if you live where gang violence is a possibility. As a hunting tool, normally are deployed when varmint hunting, wild hogs, coyotes, wild dogs, and yes 10 rounds are not enough when hunting where pack animals are around. So to have a real conversation you have to know all the facts it is man's affinity to kill their fellow man, along with the evil in their hearts which is at play. Not the people who follow the laws but those who do not. Therefore, prohibition only weakens us as a nation making us safer, not strengthens us as a people letting Liberty protect our children's birthright.
Shame on MSNBC for not posting the good use of the tools used.
Read the article and one recurring thing stands out- in not one single case did the gun, by itself, kill anyone. There was a person who used the gun to kill someone.
How about we do something about the perpetrators of these crimes, instead of trying to blame an inanimate object?
All you gun control advocates are mindless idiots, too dumb to understand the issues, let alone make an intelligent decision on how to deal with the problem of PEOPLE killing PEOPLE.
Dumbasses..................
Roger that pbGR